Let's Talk About Anime


Television

1,451 to 1,500 of 3,993 << first < prev | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | next > last >>

Caineach wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Okay...phone lost my post.

Long story short, antagonistic girlfriend aranna, please watch Kinos journey and tell me what you think. I think you might enjoy it, and I recommend it strongly. I may put it on my watch list for the year.

I only caught bits of that when my roommates were watching it in college. It looked really interesting. I should find a copy.

a warning that it is an incredibly dry series. I wouldn't suggest watching it late at night. But it is very deep in parts.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I won't speak for Aranna and I don't actually agree that the place for such things is Hentai, but I do have problems with fanservice and objectification in anime. Despite that I do see a big difference between a risque scene as part of the plot in a romance anime and upskirt shots in a fight scene in an action one. The first could easily be more arousing, but neither fanservice nor objectifying.
Best example I can think of is the second Underworld movie. That scene was erotic and fit the plot, and not just fan service.

mmm.

interesting, and good point.


Alzrius wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Like racist stereotype characters.
Or for that matter female stereotype characters.
Both areas in which there has been vast improvement over decades, due at least partly to the exact strategies you suggest.

You do realize that "the exact strategies" that I suggest are to not use public shame and humiliation to somehow make things better for society, right? Because if you're saying that not using those tactics have played roles in making things better over the decades, then I agree completely.

Saying that you want to use shame and social scorn to make the "bad people" stop doing "bad things" is a horrible thing to do to people, just ask the families of the teenagers who committed suicide due to bullying.

Because as we all know racism in media and society was stopped without anybody ever saying it was bad to be racist.

And if such a thing was ever said, that was itself the real problem, because any such accusation is a horrible thing to do to people.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Guys, can't we just go back to talking about anime?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Because as we all know racism in media and society was stopped without anybody ever saying it was bad to be racist.

Because as we all know, a sexy female character in a story (even if it "doesn't make sense" - whatever that means) has the same moral corruption as racism in media and society.

Quote:
And if such a thing was ever said, that was itself the real problem, because any such accusation is a horrible thing to do to people.

That's why we need to continue to speak out against the evils of communism, Elvis, and Dungeons & Dragons, and not allow people to convince us that such things aren't bad when we know that they put real bad thoughts into real people.


Alzrius wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Because as we all know racism in media and society was stopped without anybody ever saying it was bad to be racist.
Because as we all know, a sexy female character in a story has the same moral corruption as racism in media and society.
Quote:
And if such a thing was ever said, that was itself the real problem, because any such accusation is a horrible thing to do to people.

That's the debate we're having.

There were plenty of arguments about whether racism was "moral corruption" or just the natural way of things.

You disagree and think there's nothing wrong with it, therefore you're opposed to there being any shame attached. In cases where you do think a thing is seriously morally wrong, do you have a problem with using shame and social scorn?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Icyshadow wrote:
Guys, can't we just go back to talking about anime?

I tried.

To be fair, they are talking about anime. Just not about 'good shows to watch'.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Alright. Alright.

I'm done. I promise I'll let it lie for awhile at least.

Can't promise I won't fail a save against a new post in a couple days and jump back in though. :)


We will have to agree to disagree here. It pains me in some places, but if everyone agreed with me, the world would be a boring, if satiated, place.


Freehold DM wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Okay...phone lost my post.

Long story short, antagonistic girlfriend aranna, please watch Kinos journey and tell me what you think. I think you might enjoy it, and I recommend it strongly. I may put it on my watch list for the year.

I only caught bits of that when my roommates were watching it in college. It looked really interesting. I should find a copy.
a warning that it is an incredibly dry series. I wouldn't suggest watching it late at night. But it is very deep in parts.

I really like those types of shows. I absolutely loved Hanbie Renmei, which is probably one of the slowest paced well done shows I know of. I even didn't mind the standing around talking in the original .hack (though that show committed so many other crimes it is hard to forgive).

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I personally enjoyed Rakuen Tsuihou: Expelled From Paradise, but I doubt it would be something that non-anime fans would like. Freehold would love it.

Rie Kugimiya voicing the female lead was a big point for me. Love her voice.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
thejeff wrote:

That's the debate we're having.

There were plenty of arguments about whether racism was "moral corruption" or just the natural way of things.

No, it's not. That's the manner in which you're attempting to frame it, but I believe that's fundamentally misguided. No way is mentioning anything about "just the natural way of things" here; rather, this is a debate about whether or not people should feel ashamed to create/enjoy the stories that they enjoy, because they don't live up to the moral dogma of other people.

thejeff wrote:
You disagree and think there's nothing wrong with it, therefore you're opposed to there being any shame attached.

I disagree because I don't believe that the terms you're attempting to impose apply here. This isn't about racism; it's about moral authoritarianism.

thejeff wrote:
In cases where you do think a thing is seriously morally wrong, do you have a problem with using shame and social scorn?

Yes, I do. All that you're proposing here is "the ends justify the means," because you believe that what you're trying to achieve is "right" and therefore it doesn't matter if you damage the people who don't believe as you do.

That's not a reason - it's an excuse, and a poor one at that.

thejeff wrote:
Can't promise I won't fail a save against a new post in a couple days and jump back in though. :)

I'm ready when you are. ;)

Seriously, I think that debate is good, so long as it doesn't descend into acrimony, and we've all been pretty good about that.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

I personally enjoyed Rakuen Tsuihou: Expelled From Paradise, but I doubt it would be something that non-anime fans would like. Freehold would love it.

Rie Kugimiya voicing the female lead was a big point for me. Love her voice.

I will add it to my list.


If everyone agreed with me... There would be some changes... Oh yes...


Freehold DM wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Okay...phone lost my post.

Long story short, antagonistic girlfriend aranna, please watch Kinos journey and tell me what you think. I think you might enjoy it, and I recommend it strongly. I may put it on my watch list for the year.

I only caught bits of that when my roommates were watching it in college. It looked really interesting. I should find a copy.
a warning that it is an incredibly dry series. I wouldn't suggest watching it late at night. But it is very deep in parts.

If your sure I would like it and you aren't just trying to trick me into watching it, then I will add it to my watch list.


Aranna wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Okay...phone lost my post.

Long story short, antagonistic girlfriend aranna, please watch Kinos journey and tell me what you think. I think you might enjoy it, and I recommend it strongly. I may put it on my watch list for the year.

I only caught bits of that when my roommates were watching it in college. It looked really interesting. I should find a copy.
a warning that it is an incredibly dry series. I wouldn't suggest watching it late at night. But it is very deep in parts.

If your sure I would like it and you aren't just trying to trick me into watching it, then I will add it to my watch list.

turns up brightness on halo

would I try to trick you?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 8

I was excited to watch the latest disc of Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam I received from Netflix (episodes 21-25) and the disc was cracked all the way through! I'm curious to see if they can actually send me a replacement disc since they do not even have the whole series.


Recently finished watching Akame Ga Kill, I really liked how unpredictable that series was. The fights were actually exciting because I had no idea who might die, unlike most violent series where the hero(es) wins every time.

Are there any other series like that out there?


Yuugasa wrote:

Recently finished watching Akame Ga Kill, I really liked how unpredictable that series was. The fights were actually exciting because I had no idea who might die, unlike most violent series where the hero(es) wins every time.

Are there any other series like that out there?

have you tried Ga-rei Zero


Greylurker wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Recently finished watching Akame Ga Kill, I really liked how unpredictable that series was. The fights were actually exciting because I had no idea who might die, unlike most violent series where the hero(es) wins every time.

Are there any other series like that out there?

have you tried Ga-rei Zero

I have not, is it any good?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Yuugasa wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Recently finished watching Akame Ga Kill, I really liked how unpredictable that series was. The fights were actually exciting because I had no idea who might die, unlike most violent series where the hero(es) wins every time.

Are there any other series like that out there?

have you tried Ga-rei Zero
I have not, is it any good?

I'll also suggest Fate/Zero for ya as similar. Which was awesome btw.


With all this sidebar about gender objectification, I bring you an example of the female form being treated as objects to its' ultimate extreme... ;)

Icyshadow wrote:
Guys, can't we just go back to talking about anime?

Sure thing...

The "non-fanservicey" hand giveth: Princess Nine, anime girls and baseball. The director was also responsible for the Giant Robo anime. The dubbed version, back in the day, helped to put ADV's voice talent stable on the dubbed anime fanbase map.

The "fanservicey" hand taketh away: The Familiar of Zero.

1. Be a human male, summoned to another world by accident.

2. Could get a Harem in that world.

3. ????

4. Profit with more seasons/sequels!

Also in dubbed format.

Happy now, everyone?


Loved princess nine.


Can't comment on Princess Nine... Never watched it because I really don't like baseball. ><'

I loved the idea for Zero no Tsukaima... Although I was disappointed that they din't explore more of the world and instead chose to focus on the usual harem comedy... Which should be expected but it's still a let down. :(

I wanted them to explore more of the magic that binds mages to their familiars and the connection between Earth and the world where the show takes place.

Spoiler:
(IIRC, they never explained how the Japanese soldier reached the other world).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Here4daFreeSwag wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Guys, can't we just go back to talking about anime?

Sure thing...

The "non-fanservicey" hand giveth: Princess Nine, anime girls and baseball. The director was also responsible for the Giant Robo anime. The dubbed version, back in the day, helped to put ADV's voice talent stable on the dubbed anime fanbase map.

The "fanservicey" hand taketh away: The Familiar of Zero.

[...]

Happy now, everyone?

I strongly endorse this post, since it's pretty much what I've been trying to say all this time: make enough stuff to appeal to everyone so everyone can enjoy what they like, and don't need to hate on the stuff that they don't.

Here4daFreeSwag, you are the wind beneath my wings.

Silver Crusade

I've tried to stay out of the fan service debate, hoping that it would go away, if only for a while...

And it did, but not long enough for my taste...

So here's my take on the matter... fair warning, I may upset some people with the following words. It is not in any way intentional.

The fact is the Japanese make anime and manga that cater to their wants and desires. Fan service is engrained in the culture. It's even in their commercials. So complaining about it isn't going to change anything. Especially since we're consuming their product. And all censorship does is give us companies like 4Kids. I've spoken about the legacy they've left behind before, but many who know of them (myself included) harbor ill feelings where they're concerned. Because anime is more than just a genre.

It's an art form.

And art should never be censored.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:
But don't try to stop others from doing it if they want. And yes, censorship is exactly what some people are advocating here.

Citation needed. And let's keep our goalposts firmly in place; 'censorship' is a wider term than 'ban,' and might cover sentiments beyond the supposed ban-desires that you and others are reacting against.

Keep in mind that this whole sub-topic began with cmastah recommending a show, mentioning that it has no fanservice, and then Freehold replying with 'Sounds cool, but no fanservice = no Freehold.'

Link

Afterward, Aranna said that she often finds that fanservice detracts from an anime, and that social awareness can and has led to improved entertainment. Before Alzrius badgered him into leaving the thread, Tels said that he doesn't mind fanservice in general but doesn't like watermelon boobs. And I followed up with my opinion that the world will be a better place when anime learns the meaning of 'everything in moderation.' No mention of bannings that I remember.

And then the thread exploded with a lot of overreactions* and [intentional?] misreading of posts. But hey, I could have missed these pro-ban comments, so feel free to link them. Because for the record, I do not support fanservice bans; what I do support is a bit of human empathy and social awareness.

*If you're not convinced of the general overreaction, take a look at Sissyl's comment about these supposed pro-ban fans getting orgasms from taking fun away from others. Lol, talk about throwing stones from glass houses! I might as well speculate that fanservice lovers want fanservice to be mandatory, because they get their jollies from knowing that their softcore [often child-]porn actively undercuts self-respect and cultural improvement.

Dark Archive

code geass downloded all episodes from youtube great story but cant rewhatch it for some reasion thought.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
But don't try to stop others from doing it if they want. And yes, censorship is exactly what some people are advocating here.

Citation needed. And let's keep our goalposts firmly in place; 'censorship' is a wider term than 'ban,' and might cover sentiments beyond the supposed ban-desires that you and others are reacting against.

Keep in mind that this whole sub-topic began with cmastah recommending a show, mentioning that it has no fanservice, and then Freehold replying with 'Sounds cool, but no fanservice = no Freehold.'

Link

Afterward, Aranna said that she often finds that fanservice detracts from an anime, and that social awareness can and has led to improved entertainment. Before Alzrius badgered him into leaving the thread, Tels said that he doesn't mind fanservice in general but doesn't like watermelon boobs. And I followed up with my opinion that the world will be a better place when anime learns the meaning of 'everything in moderation.' No mention of bannings that I remember.

And then the thread exploded with a lot of overreactions* and [intentional?] misreading of posts. But hey, I could have missed these pro-ban comments, so feel free to link them. Because for the record, I do not support fanservice bans; what I do support is a bit of human empathy and social awareness.

*If you're not convinced of the general overreaction, take a look at Sissyl's comment about these supposed pro-ban fans getting orgasms from taking fun away from others. Lol, talk about throwing stones from glass houses! I might as well speculate that fanservice lovers want fanservice to be mandatory, because they get their jollies from knowing that their softcore [often child-]porn actively undercuts self-respect and cultural improvement.

oh come now, tequila. Softcore child porn? I fought through those accusations enough in the 90s.

I am officially snowed in tomorrow. Finishing off gundam movies, macross plus ova and may watch something from the oldie but goodie pile- either robot carnival or Venus wars.

I highly recommend both, though avoid the dub of Venus wars due to unnecessary bigoted commentary.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Cosmo had something to say about New York's weather.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cosmo had something to say about New York's weather.

:-D


Alzrius wrote:
...

I understand a lot more than you think I do, and I think if you let yourself cool off a bit and consider the progression of this sub-topic, you'll see a different picture. And no, I'm not up for dissecting all these post-fragments with you; I'm back at school and don't have the time or the energy.

Although I suspect that you're too preoccupied with being right to try this, I'll again suggest that you put on your roleplayer hat the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy show and try to look at the wider picture, rather than focussing on all these little debate points.

...After you cool off for a while. Human empathy really benefits from a clear head.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:

*If you're not convinced of the general overreaction, take a look at Sissyl's comment about these supposed pro-ban fans getting orgasms from taking fun away from others. Lol, talk about throwing stones from glass houses! I might as well speculate that fanservice lovers want fanservice to be mandatory, because they get their jollies from knowing that their softcore [often child-]porn actively undercuts self-respect and cultural improvement.

Freehold DM wrote:
oh come now, tequila. Softcore child porn? I fought through those accusations enough in the 90s.

Crazy, right? And yet nobody seems to bat an eye at Sissyl's equally vapid speculation about, from what I can tell, is a strawman position.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Afterward, Aranna said that she often finds that fanservice detracts from an anime, and that social awareness can and has led to improved entertainment.

Which carries the rather condescending connotation that anime with fan-service is somehow less "improved" than anime without it, to say nothing of the idea that a reduction in fan-service is in any way related to "social awareness."

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Before Alzrius badgered him into leaving the thread, Tels said that he doesn't mind fanservice in general but doesn't like watermelon boobs.

A gross mischaracterization on your part, here. Debate, even spirited debate, is not badgering, even if the other person becomes upset. Likewise, if they choose to leave, they have not been talked "into" leaving the thread.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
I understand a lot more than you think I do, and I think if you let yourself cool off a bit and consider the progression of this sub-topic, you'll see a different picture.

It's important to note the subtle dishonesty in the quoted passage, here. Even overlooking that it falls back on the old "you'd agree with me if only you really understood what I was saying; since you don't agree with me, therefore you simply fail to understand" cliche, it also posits that I'm somehow I'm worked up and need to "cool off" and that I haven't "consider[ed] the progression" of the thread.

All of which, obviously, is nonsense. As I mentioned above, engaging in a spirited discussion or debate is not indicative of losing one's cool. Likewise, I've considered the progression, and I find there to be no particular reason why I should consider the proverbial picture to be different.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
And no, I'm not up for dissecting all these post-fragments with you; I'm back at school and don't have the time or the energy.

So you want to respond, but don't have the time or the energy to engage in the actual debate that's going on. That's fine, but it makes it rather hard to discuss the issue with you when you don't want to have the give-and-take that's at the core of a conversation.

That's leaving aside the attempts to mischaracterize my position as "you just don't understand the other side of it," of course.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Although I suspect that you're too preoccupied with being right to try this, I'll again suggest that you put on your roleplayer hat the next time you watch a fanservice-heavy show and try to look at the wider picture, rather than focussing on all these little debate points.

Again, disagreement does not indicate a lack of understanding. It's quite ironic that you don't seem to understand this.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
...After you cool off for a while. Human empathy really benefits from a clear head.

Again, mischaracterizing that I somehow need to "cool off," as well as a new mischaracterization that I somehow haven't developed "human empathy."

Given that you've eschewed debating as taking too much time and energy, but have found the time and energy to try and paint a grossly-inaccurate picture regarding how I'm presenting my points, instead of what those points are, it's rather ironic that you'd position yourself as being in a position to talk about "human empathy."


2 people marked this as a favorite.

There was talk that fanservice make men see women as nothing but sex toys, that it has a subtle but real negative effect on young women and and that it should only be done "in moderation". There were comparisons between fanservice and racism and homophonia, FFS.

1- There is no evidence that fanservice (or even porn) makes anyone sexist. It's a claim as empty as saying that video-games and rock n' roll music make people violent.
2- If people have such low self-esteem that they feel bad because they see attractive persons in tv shows, they have far deeper problems that should be looked into. Should every media only portray average people that are not particularly attractive or competent at anything, just to make sure no one feels bad about themselves?
3- What is "in moderation"? Who decides what's a moderate amount? The people producing and watching the shows apparently think the current amount is good enough. Who are you to tell them otherwise? Why is your opinion worth more than theirs? Don't like fanservice (or any other aspect of any media), don't consume media that includes it. It's as simple as that.
4- If you think a cartoon showing overly-sexualized fictional characters is as bad as thinking less of people just because of their ethnicity or sexual preference, then you really need to lower your consumption of PC-Holier-Than-Thou Koolaid...

And I doubt any of the people complaining about fanservice were protesting the amount of pointless shirtless scenes in Twilight (you know... that series of books/movies that made an incredible amount of money despite its terrible story and bland protagonist).

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
And I doubt any of the people complaining about fanservice were protesting the amount of pointless shirtless scenes in Twilight (you know... that series of books/movies that made an incredible amount of money despite its terrible story and bland protagonist).

I think that is because most of us were already complaining about it being a terrible story and horrible example of a relationship.


Ive been really enjoying Akatsuki no Yona, Kiseijuu: Sei no Kakuritsu, World Trigger, and Nanatsu no Taizai. They all have pretty good stories and are fun to watch.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
And I doubt any of the people complaining about fanservice were protesting the amount of pointless shirtless scenes in Twilight (you know... that series of books/movies that made an incredible amount of money despite its terrible story and bland protagonist).
I think that is because most of us were already complaining about it being a terrible story and horrible example of a relationship.

And that is a very valid criticism. I think Twilight is a terrible story in more than a few ways (I had to watch 2 of those movies in theater, I still cringe with pain when I see the way those characters act, especially the protagonists, who the audience is supposed to relate to -.-').

Now, if anyone told me Twilight is a bad movie because of its story and characters, not because the wolf guy dropped his shirt as soon as he was on camera.


On a separate note...

Is Tokyo Ghoul Root A the first season of Tokyo Ghoul? that's the only I could find, but the "Root A" part made me think it could be a sequel or something.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

It is most certainly NOT the first season, but Funimation has mashed both seasons together in their listing. So as long as you watch it from episode one, you should be fine.


Lemmy wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
And I doubt any of the people complaining about fanservice were protesting the amount of pointless shirtless scenes in Twilight (you know... that series of books/movies that made an incredible amount of money despite its terrible story and bland protagonist).
I think that is because most of us were already complaining about it being a terrible story and horrible example of a relationship.

And that is a very valid criticism. I think Twilight is a terrible story in more than a few ways (I had to watch 2 of those movies in theater, I still cringe with pain when I see the way those characters act, especially the protagonists, who the audience is supposed to relate to -.-').

Now, if anyone told me Twilight is a bad movie because of its story and characters, not because the wolf guy dropped his shirt as soon as he was on camera.

I've heard it mentioned along with all the other reasons it's lousy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

There was talk that fanservice make men see women as nothing but sex toys, that it has a subtle but real negative effect on young women and and that it should only be done "in moderation". There were comparisons between fanservice and racism and homophonia, FFS.

1- There is no evidence that fanservice (or even porn) makes anyone sexist. It's a claim as empty as saying that video-games and rock n' roll music make people violent.
4- If you think a cartoon showing overly-sexualized fictional characters is as bad as thinking less of people just because of their ethnicity or sexual preference, then you really need to lower your consumption of PC-Holier-Than-Thou Koolaid...

1) These claims seem to get perilously close to saying that media or literary portrayals have no impact at all. That mass media has no effect on shaping culture or individuals. There's a lot of space between that and "violent video games don't turn people into murderers".

4)Fanservice (of the kind we're talking about) is sexist. It's an aspect of sexism. It's putting women's bodies on display draw male eyeballs. And money.
Is it, all by itself, the moral equivalent of all of racism or homophobia? No. Of course not. It's an aspect of sexism, so it's equivalent to an aspect of racism. Parallel to the way black people were portrayed in film and tv, rather than to all of racism.

Anime has some differences from Western sexualized portrayals. The anime girls are sexualized with plenty of shots designed to titillate, but are otherwise often competent well-developed characters. Western equivalents tended to be just there to be seen or for the male leads to rescue. That's been changing, but the differences are interesting.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

There was talk that fanservice make men see women as nothing but sex toys, that it has a subtle but real negative effect on young women and and that it should only be done "in moderation". There were comparisons between fanservice and racism and homophonia, FFS.

1- There is no evidence that fanservice (or even porn) makes anyone sexist. It's a claim as empty as saying that video-games and rock n' roll music make people violent.
4- If you think a cartoon showing overly-sexualized fictional characters is as bad as thinking less of people just because of their ethnicity or sexual preference, then you really need to lower your consumption of PC-Holier-Than-Thou Koolaid...

1) These claims seem to get perilously close to saying that media or literary portrayals have no impact at all. That mass media has no effect on shaping culture or individuals. There's a lot of space between that and "violent video games don't turn people into murderers".

4)Fanservice (of the kind we're talking about) is sexist. It's an aspect of sexism. It's putting women's bodies on display draw male eyeballs. And money.
Is it, all by itself, the moral equivalent of all of racism or homophobia? No. Of course not. It's an aspect of sexism, so it's equivalent to an aspect of racism. Parallel to the way black people were portrayed in film and tv, rather than to all of racism.

Anime has some differences from Western sexualized portrayals. The anime girls are sexualized with plenty of shots designed to titillate, but are otherwise often competent well-developed characters. Western equivalents tended to be just there to be seen or for the male leads to rescue. That's been changing, but the differences are interesting.

1. Put up some studies that can show it is bad then. Don't shout that something is terrible for doing things you can't show it does.

2. It is only sexism if it is a pattern that is shown to favor one group over another. As I pointed out when I commented on the difference between the US comic market and anime, while individual titles may favor one side or the other, anime as a whole does a whole lot of sexualization of both genders. They target material for a specific audience.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
I've heard it mentioned along with all the other reasons it's lousy.

There is nothing wrong with disliking it. You can dislike anything for whatever reason you see fit. I don't like shirtless wolf-dudes either, but I don't use that as an argument to say that Twilight is guilty of misandry.

thejeff wrote:
1) These claims seem to get perilously close to saying that media or literary portrayals have no impact at all. That mass media has no effect on shaping culture or individuals. There's a lot of space between that and "violent video games don't turn people into murderers".

People are not stupid. Most people might be uncultured, but surprise, surprise... They. are. not. stupid. People can tell fiction from reality, at very least when it's presented in a highly over-the-top fashion like anime often does.

Does media influence people? Of course it does... But 99% of humanity is smart enough to differentiate fiction from reality. My 8-years-old nephew knows that violence is wrong, but he still loves seeing heroes kick the bad guys asses.

And yet, every time someone says something is bad influence on whoever, they never include themselves in the group being influenced, it's always "Well, I'm not affected by it, but all those stupid people are!". Funny how that works...

thejeff wrote:
4)Fanservice (of the kind we're talking about) is sexist. It's an aspect of sexism. It's putting women's bodies on display draw male eyeballs. And money.

Sure, you're presenting attractive people to attract more viewers... So what? How the hell is that sexist?

It's seems pretty obvious that a show with a mostly male audience will include stuff that interests most male viewers (and, who knew, that includes attractive females), just like a show with a mostly female audience will include stuff that attract most female viewers (and that includes attractive males).

There is nothing wrong with having attractive characters. Absolutely nothing. You're not discriminating against anyone. You're simply providing what your viewers want. If they don't like it, they don't watch it.

It'd be sexist if every character of a certain gender was portrayed as incompetent, inferior or insignificant. That's often not the case. As Aranna herself said, the girls in Highschool of the Dead can hold their own and are pretty badass.

Personally, I'd say Naruto is far more sexist, simply because most female characters are all but completely insignificant, even the ones that are supposedly really powerful.


Lemmy wrote:
thejeff wrote:
1) These claims seem to get perilously close to saying that media or literary portrayals have no impact at all. That mass media has no effect on shaping culture or individuals. There's a lot of space between that and "violent video games don't turn people into murderers".

People are not stupid. Most people might be uncultured, but surprise, surprise... They. are. not. stupid. People can tell fiction from reality, at very least when it's presented in a highly over-the-top fashion like anime often does.

Does media influence people? Of course it does... But 99% of humanity is smart enough to differentiate fiction from reality. My 8-years-old nephew knows that violence is wrong, but he still loves seeing heroes kick the bad guys asses.

And yet, every time someone says something is bad influence on whoever, they never include themselves in the group being influenced, it's always "Well, I'm not affected by it, but all those stupid people are!". Funny how that works...

thejeff wrote:
4)Fanservice (of the kind we're talking about) is sexist. It's an aspect of sexism. It's putting women's bodies on display draw male eyeballs. And money.

Sure, you're presenting attractive people to attract more viewers... So what? How the hell is that sexist?

It's seems pretty obvious that a show with a mostly male audience will include stuff that interests most male viewers (and, who knew, that includes attractive females), just like a show with a mostly female audience will include stuff that attract most female viewers (and that includes attractive males).

There is nothing wrong with having attractive characters. Absolutely nothing. You're not discriminating against...

1) I didn't say people were stupid or couldn't distinguish between fiction and reality. I said that fiction and the media influence people. Can you see the difference between those two things?

2) There's also a difference between "presents attractive people" and "random panty flashes"

I'm also amused that I just described one of the differences between anime fanservice and more traditional Western sexism seen in older comics and elsewhere is that the girls in anime are competent developed protagonists, not just subordinant to the male leads. But they still have to flash their panties. That they still have to do the fanservice is the point.

Different types of sexism.

Really that's what bothers most about it. If it was just stupid completely sexist shows where the women were nothing but bimbos or helpless screaming hostages, I could just ignore those shows. Instead the good shows with interesting strong female characters keep interrupted with random irrelevant fanservice. Often it seems forced and completely out of character.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lucky thing nobody is talking about forcing you to see anything, huh? The truth is, the debate here has been going between one side claiming again and again that "there should be less of it" without a single shred of practical suggestions as to how this would be acheived, and the other pointing out that without such suggestions, all it is is a cry for general censorship and banning, supported by nothing at all, and certainly no reason to institute any kind of censorship or banning.

It's impressive, really. Decade after decade, the call for censorship has gone out about the latest types of media. Decade after decade, would-be censors have researched the hell out of the area in search of the holy grail: evidence that society becomes worse in a measurable way with porn/swearing/D&D/dancing/rock music/whatever. And, decade after decade, they draw a blank. But the truly sad part is, despite this, there is never a shortage of people who buy into the completely unscientific argumentation anyway.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
1) I didn't say people were stupid or couldn't distinguish between fiction and reality. I said that fiction and the media influence people. Can you see the difference between those two things?

I can. And as I said, media does influence people... But not nearly as much as PC warriors want us to think.

thejeff wrote:
2) There's also a difference between "presents attractive people" and "random panty flashes"

There really isn't. All that is changing is how much you want to see/show in a certain media.

thejeff wrote:
I'm also amused that I just described one of the differences between anime fanservice and more traditional Western sexism seen in older comics and elsewhere is that the girls in anime are competent developed protagonists, not just subordinant to the male leads. But they still have to flash their panties. That they still have to do the fanservice is the point.

They don't have to do anything. The author has them do it because, guess what... The audience enjoys it, so if it's included, the author is likely to have a bigger audience.

It's not that because the author or viewer thinks they are better than women, it's there because the author knows that men like seeing hot women showing skin and adding more of the stuff your audience wants to see is good business practice. That's all.

thejeff wrote:
Instead the good shows with interesting strong female characters keep interrupted with random irrelevant fanservice. Often it seems forced and completely out of character.

Sure, but that's a problem with a adding something where it doesn't fit, not a problem with fanservice itself (or with any other aspect of media). Anything can be bad for a show, if it's put somewhere it doesn't fit (and the opinion of where it fits varies quite a bit).

Fanservice can ruin a show for the same reason that the biography of Lincoln can ruin porn... Because it's not the right place for it.


Sissyl wrote:
It's impressive, really. Decade after decade, the call for censorship has gone out about the latest types of media. Decade after decade, would-be censors have researched the hell out of the area in search of the holy grail: evidence that society becomes worse in a measurable way with porn/swearing/D&D/dancing/rock music/whatever. And, decade after decade, they draw a blank. But the truly sad part is, despite this, there is never a shortage of people who buy into the completely unscientific argumentation anyway.

Sad, but true... And don't I know it?

Here are some of the things that I enjoyed growing up (and still enjoy to this day)

- Rock & Heavy Metal music
- Comics
- Cartoons and Anime
- Action/Adventure/Horror movies
- RPG
- Video-games (especially fighting games and action games)
- Porn

Now guess how many of those were accused of turning youth into violent sexual degenerates who worship Satan or something...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Aaand i'm done with this thread. That topic just won't stay done. Pity, i liked the nuggets i'd find i overlooked when folks mention them but it's no longer worth wading through the debate.

Happy Watching, paizofolk. See ya elsewhere on the boards.(See ya space cowboy)


The opposite argument actually has something going for it. We do know that when violent movies are shown in an area, violent crime in the area drops significantly. We do know that in the US, sexual crime statistics have dropped with widespread introduction of internet connections in various states.

It's almost as if... and this is REALLY weird... people got stuff they wanted to do out of their system by reading about it or otherwise partaking of it in an immediate medial form such as movies.

The take-home message is that shutting down porn and violent media depictions might not be a very good idea at all...

1,451 to 1,500 of 3,993 << first < prev | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Entertainment / Television / Let's Talk About Anime All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.