Let's Talk About Anime


Television

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Aranna wrote:
And thank you Grimmy that is exactly the sort of damage fan service does.

It's worth noting that the "damage" here consists of "hurts my own personal enjoyment."

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It makes the girls depicted into "not real people" the rest of the people on a show that aren't targets of fan service get to be relatable and real enough... while the girls with fan service are just objects, not people, they have no real rights.

You do realize that the girls depicted in an anime already aren't real people, right? Fictional characters, by their very nature, are just objects to begin with. That's why we have the term "characterization"; it refers to imbuing fictional characters with the qualities and traits of actual people.

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If something bad happens to them on a show you don't feel sorry for them, you feel sorry for the men they belonged to.

Again, that's your personal take on it. Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.


It does have me wondering how my nieces are effected by media they watch, like disney heroines ... They seem to be a little less 1-dimensional than when I was a kid I guess... I still have yet to see one that doesn't adhere to pretty much that same overblown concept of what is feminine.

Yeah Mulan is an empowering story but I wonder what mulan really looked like if she did live. It kind of robs the story of some of it's power to give her the usual disney heroine look.

I've been playing Super Smash Bros with them on WII. The younger niece definitely gravitates towards the "princess" characters like peach, zelda, rosalina... The older of the two plays female warrior characters, lucina, sheik, samas. I think across the board they are the usual kind of girly depictions, not overly sexualized except for Samas but all kind of samey in that idealized "perfect" "pretty" way.

I did notice when they watch my little pony and they talk about which one's their favorite they both mention the one that does hair and make-up or whatever, you know the white one with purple hair? Even when another pony has done something really heroic or brave in the episode and charity or vanity or whatever her name is has just acted kind of shallow really.

Anyway way off topic, sorry guys. Back to anime.

Shadow Lodge

Aranna wrote:
PS: I am past the GGO arc in SAO II now, wow what a sad story, I actually cried. Awesome so far!

Don't put away the tissues.


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Grimmy wrote:
It does have me wondering how my nieces are effected by media they watch, like disney heroines ... They seem to be a little less 1-dimensional than when I was a kid I guess... I still have yet to see one that doesn't adhere to pretty much that same overblown concept of what is feminine.

I've mentioned this before, but the best way to find out how your nieces are being affected by the media they partake of is to talk to them. Interacting with children - or rather, having children interact with responsible, moral adults - is the best way to guide their moral development, regardless of the media that they consume.

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Yeah Mulan is an empowering story but I wonder what mulan really looked like if she did live. It kind of robs the story of some of it's power to give her the usual disney heroine look.

No comment here, due to not having seen the film.

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I've been playing Super Smash Bros with them on WII. The younger niece definitely gravitates towards the "princess" characters like peach, zelda, rosalina... The older of the two plays female warrior characters, lucina, sheik, samas. I think across the board they are the usual kind of girly depictions, not overly sexualized except for Samas but all kind of samey in that idealized "perfect" "pretty" way.

For what it's worth, there's an interesting study regarding the identification that gamers have with the characters they play in video games. To summarize: they don't. From the paper's conclusion:

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Players do not automatically take on the role of characters/avatars. Playing as a character that is ostensibly “other” to you (in terms of gender, race, or sexuality) is not necessarily transgressive or perspective-altering. Playing as a character that is like you (in terms of demographic categories) does not necessarily engender identification.

(Of course, what's ironic about this is that the author of this study conducted it with the intent of trying to come to the opposite conclusion. While I do respect that she was forthright with her findings, she then turned around and five months later reframed the original study to give the results she wanted it to have, as chronicled in part one of this two-part video series.)

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I did notice when they watch my little pony and they talk about which one's their favorite they both mention the one that does hair and make-up or whatever, you know the white one with purple hair? Even when another pony has done something really heroic or brave in the episode and charity or vanity or whatever her name is has just acted kind of shallow really.

The pony in question is Rarity, and she's made of all kinds of awesome.

While there's an excellent summary of why that is over here, it can be summarized by the following: Rarity is a clever rebuke of traditional female stereotyping.

While she initially comes off as being shallow and obsessed with fashion, the show very quickly reveals that Rarity is much deeper than this. Namely, rather than being a mere consumer of fashion trends, Rarity is a creator of her own trends - she is highly gifted in design, creating and promoting her own works. Moreover, she's a successful businesswoman (businessmare?), who runs her own store.

In other words, Rarity takes the "pretty girl" trope and turns it on its head. While she does like things that are pretty (and on at least two occasions, exhibits an interest in romance), these are not the be-all end-all of her character. She's one of the most well-rounded characters on the show (though I'd argue that Rainbow Dash is the most well-rounded), and hardly a poor role model for anyone.


That's awesome ^^

The episodes I watched with them she didn't seem that cool, Fluttershy had way better moments.


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Alzrius wrote:

So I finished watching Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic - or at least the first season of it, as it turns out that there's a second season that's not on Netflix (yet) - and while I didn't have very high expectations going into it, I was surprised by how much it surpassed them.

The show is loosely inspired by various Arabian Nights tales, as the two main characters are Aladdin and Alibaba (and Sinbad is a major supporting character). That said, these function largely as stylistic inspiration and nothing more - don't expect this to be any sort of retelling of the classic fairy tales. Rather, this is an action-adventure series set in a fantasy world.

The plot is that, years ago, mysterious dungeons appeared out of nowhere all over the world. Those who enter and manage to get to the heart of these deathtrap-filled mazes can claim the powers of a djinn that lives at the heart of each dungeon. Since then, various power-players are trying to acquire these treasures to advance their various agendas.

Aladdin is a young boy who has no memory of his past, and is searching for answers about himself and the djinn that he somehow already has. Along the way, he befriends Alibaba, a teenager with no money but a lot of determination to conquer a dungeon and make himself into a king. Together with Morgianna, a slave-girl with powerful combat abilities that Aladdin and Alibaba end up setting free, the three of them become involved in a quest to determine the fate of the world.

To be fair, there's little here that isn't standard action-adventure fare, which made me wonder why I found myself liking the show more than I thought I would. The answer I eventually came to is that while the show does make use of typical tropes for its genre, it never takes them too far, knowing when less makes for more.

Aladdin, for example, was initially off-putting to me; his character is one of those "naive in such a way that he unconsciously casts a stark moral spotlight on problems" characters, guilelessly saying what decorum and...

I thought I watched season 2 on netflix, but I may have gone somewhere else for it. It was easily as good as season 1, and you get to see the Kingdom of Magic. There they do a good job of showing how awesome a society of mages would be to live in... if you are a wizard.

I found the first season really picked up with episode 4. The first 3 are a little cliche and simple on first introduction.


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Caineach wrote:
I thought I watched season 2 on netflix, but I may have gone somewhere else for it.

I'll check again. I'm using Netflix on my Wii U, and while it's great to be able to control it from a tablet-controller, the interface for searching related topics isn't as good as it seems to be on other devices (that is, I can't seem to search by genre).


Alzrius wrote:
Caineach wrote:
I thought I watched season 2 on netflix, but I may have gone somewhere else for it.
I'll check again. I'm using Netflix on my Wii U, which while it's great to be able to control it from a tablet-controller, the interface for searching related topics isn't as good as it is on other devices (that is, I can't seem to search by genre).

They change the name to Magi: The Kingdom of Magic, so that does change searches.


Alzrius wrote:
So I finished watching Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic - or at least the first season of it, as it turns out that there's a second season that's not on Netflix (yet) - and while I didn't have very high expectations going into it, I was surprised by how much it surpassed them...
Caineach wrote:
I found the first season really picked up with episode 4. The first 3 are a little cliche and simple on first introduction.

Thanks, you just convinced me to give Magi a second chance. :)

Alzrius wrote:
Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.

I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
So I finished watching Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic - or at least the first season of it, as it turns out that there's a second season that's not on Netflix (yet) - and while I didn't have very high expectations going into it, I was surprised by how much it surpassed them...
Caineach wrote:
I found the first season really picked up with episode 4. The first 3 are a little cliche and simple on first introduction.

Thanks, you just convinced me to give Magi a second chance. :)

I found Aladin to be very annoying in the first couple episodes. He only reverts to the overly-childish character a couple times later in the season, usually explicitly for comedic effect.


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Moreover, you have yet to demonstrate why this is at all worthy of moral outrage.
I can see why Aranna pegged you for a troll.

The irony is that, without expounding on that, your statement here is trolling in and of itself.

I'm quite willing to debate the issue regarding fan-service, but as I've said, so far everyone who's put forth that it's immoral due to its influence on society have yet to back that position up with anything other than personal opinions or unfounded statements about how it teaches children to objectify women.

If you believe otherwise, I invite you to share your reasoning here, and likewise critique my own.


*sigh*
Ok, so this is the first post.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

For me, anime is the most frustrating genre on the screen because I want to like it. But with the exception of a few gems, everything I've seen is garbage. It's agonizingly slow-paced due to internal monologue and/or repetitive flashbacks, or the characters are annoying, or the plot and characters are juvenile, or chibi mini-scenes pee all over otherwise good animation, or all of the above. In short, it's no better than the Saturday morning cartoons I stopped watching when I turned eleven.

Alright, enough negativity. Let's talk about the few gems. The ones I've seen are:

Miyazaki: Some of his films, at least. Howl's Moving Castle, Castle in the Sky and Spirited Away are anime favorites of mine.

Death Note: The one anime where I don't mind the internal monologues, because they're appropriate and mostly not too long. A great show all around.

Darker than Black: 'Soulless' mutant assassins and scifi mystery...what's not to like? Wish netflix would add more seasons to the instant queue.

Those are mine; how about yours?

Far as I can tell the thread has been labeled in a manner that opens the conversation to the political and psychological effects of negative gender role models on young women in a culture chock absolutely full of them. I imagine Tequila can chime in if I'm wrong but I severly doubt such a thing was intentional. Regardless would all parties kindly leave the passive aggressive flame baiting alone?

That is not the threads intent, the intent of the tread is to share opinions on and suggest shows to watch. specifically of the Anime genre or things relating to it.
I suppose to be more accurate the thread ought to be labeled something like Anime suggestion thread or some other generic but specific thing but this thread has been around for a good while and it has only been recently that this has spawned.

TL:DR PLEASE. Stop feeding into the argument, both sides. The thread started as a place to share favorite series with fellow Anime fans. Leave it as such.

Alright, now for stuff that I actually wanted to post.

Last time I was suggested to check out Dusk princess of Amnesia as a follow up to Another. I got about 3 episodes in before I gave up. I will likely come back to it when I'm in the mood for a less serious anime (perhaps I just didn't let it hit its stride). But it feels like going from watching something like Bokkurano to Gurren Laggan with no real break.

Watched Usagi Drop, an 11 episode series about a bachelor that goes to his grandfather funeral only to discover the old coot apparently had another kid. Nobody wants her for various reasons, so our bachelor who has absolutely no experience with such things takes said kid in.
Loved the themes of abandonment, death, and change in the series.
Not sure if I'm yea or Nea on that one even after watching it, it just kind of ends rather than reaching a proper stopping point. I get the feeling that the studio ran out of money and was unable to finish what they intended to. There are a lot of loose ends that bother me on that one.

And if you happen to want something to burn 8-ish minutes with I've been quite amused with the short form anime Tonari no Seki-kun: The Master of Killing Time. A series that follows Yokoi, a high school girl that sits next to Seki. An indiviual that does absolutely everything at this school desk except learn. The first episode involves said time waster making a rather complex domino set up.


Rarity is my number 2.


Will always love fanservice and cheesecake. I look forward to defeating Aranna by shoving her escape pod into the asteroid she made careen towards earth and making her watch as I save the day all by my lonesome. Again.


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Freehold DM wrote:
Rarity is my number 2.

I'm pretty well torn on my favorite pony. Twilight is the one I find easiest to understand and empathize with. Rainbow Dash seems like the most interesting character, in terms of being multi-faceted and three-dimensional. Rarity is the most fun to watch (and listen to, both for her adorable accent and Kazumi Evans' heavenly voice).


You forgot the MWAHAHAHAHAAAAA!


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I've only seen like three episodes but flutter shy was my favorite. Because she was afraid of everything the whole episode but when the dragon messed with her friends she was like "THATS IT!!"


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That was my first full episode.


Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

I greatly prefer subs unless I'm so tired I can barely read.


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Grimmy wrote:

Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

I greatly prefer subs unless I'm so tired I can barely read.

Subs, always.

I have some moderate proficiency at spoken Japanese, thanks to several classes in high school and college, and so I can sometimes recognize nuances in the spoken parts that the subtitles don't catch.


I find subtitles distracting from watching the actual show in question. Now i've learned to deal but I still prefer to watch a Dub of a show over a Sub if one is available. Regardless once I choose one version (sub or Dub) I stick with that version, swapping between the two make my brain hurt as voices, inflections and word choice changes.
Fact of the matter is that in this instance I find ignorance to be bliss on the differences between the two.

Grand Lodge

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Grimmy wrote:
Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

Yes please.


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Alzrius wrote:

Okay, so I just watched the ME!ME!ME! anime music video, mostly because I've been hearing so much about it lately. I'm literally typing this immediately having watched it, so I haven't had much time to compose my thoughts.

The first thing that needs to be said is to make a disclaimer regarding the video's length; while it's eight minutes long, the first ninety seconds are a short opening/studio presentation; this has no connection whatsoever to the remaining video.

I'm going to place the remainder of this review in tags, since I'm going to be dissecting the entirety of the video.

** spoiler omitted **...

Okay, so I was looking through some online reviews of this today, and came across an interesting interpretation.

John Oppliger watched the music video and basically came to the exact opposite conclusion that I did; that this music video was not a reproach of the self-indulgent "otaku" lifestyle. Moreover, he discusses why he thinks such interpretations are missing some important context.

Be warned, he makes his case via citing images from the video, so there's some fan-service and gore to be found in the linked article.

For those who don't know, John has some clout in the anime community. He's been involved in anime fandom for several decades, has been answering questions in the famous "Ask John" column on AnimeNation for well over ten years, and he has what must be one of the largest collections of anime (and anime memorabilia) in the United States.


Grimmy wrote:

Do you guys prefers subs or dubs for anime?

I greatly prefer subs unless I'm so tired I can barely read.

I enjoy a good dub, and will prefer that, but those are so few and far between that I definitely watch most of my anime as subs.

Grand Lodge

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I watch the sub, and then I watch the dub.


I want more Karas. There needs to be more Karas.


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Sub. 4. LIFE.

Shadow Lodge

Dragon Half is one of the few examples I like to reference where the dub is superior to the sub. Cowboy Bebop also managed to equal the original language in quality.


You speak lies and heresy.


You speak bigotry and intolerance.

Silver Crusade

For extrahereticalness, I prefer to watch Baccano! dubbed and plan to watch Durarara! subbed.

It just feels more natural that way. :)


MYTHIC TOZ wrote:
You speak bigotry and intolerance.

the dubs have nothing to say!!

Shadow Lodge

And yet they say it quite well.


Dubs and subs! At the same time.

Just to be amused by the differences in translation.

Grand Lodge

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I've often wondered what it would be like to listen to the dub while the subtitles played.

Unfortunately, Blood+ is not a good candidate for that. :/


Dubs, for sure.

Subs are distracting. (I'm watching a show, not reading it. Especially when the visuals are quite important for the types of anime I prefer.)


Watching the Macross Plus subs vs dubs...wow totally diff. Subs all the way.
I have seen some where it doesn't make a great difference, though.


I have always prefere dubed to subbed, maybe thats just because I don't want to read the show.

Also need to finish season 2 of SAO, need to get a hold of Psyco-Pass season 2. Rewatching all of Inuyasha right now sine I never realized they finished the anime till recently.

Grand Lodge

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In other, more important news, I watched Kantai Collection last night. My wife said it was ridiculous, and I rather agreed, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it.


The one dub I actually enjoyed was the original guyver. It was amazing with just the right amount of cheese.


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TOZ wrote:
Dragon Half is one of the few examples I like to reference where the dub is superior to the sub. Cowboy Bebop also managed to equal the original language in quality.

El Hazard was interesting because they intentionally changed a significant amount of dialog for American audiences. The original show has a lot of puns and idioms that do not translate well, and they turned it into American humor. I definitely enjoyed the dub more, and the show overall was pretty good. How can you go wrong with lines like "What you call cats, we call body armor".


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Caineach wrote:
El Hazard was interesting because they intentionally changed a significant amount of dialog for American audiences. The original show has a lot of puns and idioms that do not translate well, and they turned it into American humor. I definitely enjoyed the dub more, and the show overall was pretty good. How can you go wrong with lines like "What you call cats, we call body armor".

Way back when I first discovered anime, the dubbed El Hazard was one of the first ones that I saw. Admittedly, I was quite taken with it at the time - though now that I've had a chance to watch it subtitled, I prefer that.

Still, some of the dub jokes were quite good ("I thought we were supposed to meet with a princess, not a queen").

Of course, having seen the sequel and second sequel, it's a shame how much they didn't really hold up compared to the original series.

Grand Lodge

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Ah, El Hazard. Love that one.


Liking what "psycho-pass" has done with a better retelling of minority report in a more realised setting.


I'm a dub fan primarily, unless the dub is truly awful and/or messes with the story too much. The main issue is that due to time constraints I rarely just sit and actually watch something, I'm often splitting my attention between whatever's on TV and something else, so unless I make the effort to find time to sit down and do nothing else, subtitles aren't much use to me.

Twilight of the Dark Master is the last one I can remember where I felt like I absolutely had to watch with subs. They completely changed a few characters and altered the dialogue of the villain so much that he may as well have had a flashing neon sign above his head saying "Bad Guy Right Here"


The only Dub that I can remember liking was for Dominion Tank Police though I haven't listened to it in years. I love Subs, not just for anime, but for any film or TV series that is spoken in a non-English language.

Twilight and Fluttershy are my favorites.

I love the Japanese language version of Dragon-Half.


I'm fine with either as long as the acting is good. There are some good Dubs out there but there are also a large number of bad ones with horrid unemotional voice. The early Bandai dubs were horrid, the acting was just wooden flat tones like they were just reading off the page.

ADV had managed to get a good stable of voice actors befor they broke apart. Funimation and Viz have managed to collect some decent ones as well.

I still think Lisa Ortiz and Hillary Haag are two of the best english anime voice actors


Yeah, for live action foreign language stuff I much prefer subtitles. Partially because lip syncing issues are so much more obvious, and also because I find anime dubs tend to be of higher quality than those for live action film for whatever reason.

As for subtitles in general, the reason I most often use them is that I'm unable to sleep, and want to watch a movie or show but have to keep the volume down due to the cranky old bastard who lives in the apartment above mine.


Sissyl wrote:
To be perfectly honest, the commedia del'arte style personality archetypes infecting much of manga and anime is a pretty good reason why characters don't feel real or relatable.

This isn't the same thing at all though. In commedia dell'arte yes the masks dehumanized you... but at the same time gave you one relatable trait that people could identify with in the real world. So while you might not see actor 1 as "peter" you would instead say "Ha, I know someone kinda like that!" it helped the skits they made appeal. So I fail to see your point with this?


Grimmy wrote:

Well I am also considering it as an art issue not just a female issue. For example the wayne reynolds/pathfinder art style has the same effect of disconnecting me from the world and characters depicted by making them appear sort of like action figures and arsenals of abilities.

The 2e art had it's chain mail bikinis and perfect hairdo's in the middle of a swamp but it still made the scenes come alive in my mind in a way the PF action shots don't... It's probably different for each individual I guess. Interesting to me though.

I have spoken out against objectifying fantasy art too... I am sure that doesn't surprise anyone here. It was used to lure young boys into the hobby. "Hey look kid you could be adventuring next to that hottie!" And unless I am mistaken somehow... it worked. The same sort of art now is used to lure young boys toward video games.

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