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I know the gunslingers and alchemists are popular, but to me, in my games of high fantasy, they're just so anachronistic as to seem 'unreal'... I could see a gnome alchemist or gunslinger as comic relief and even that's a stretch.
I realize that these opinions are my own, and they're likely in the minority, but I never even consider them when it comes to suggestions because they would never appear in our games - unless we're playing Rifts or something.
High fantasy alchemists can work. Remember that the alchemist is infusing magic into each of his bombs and extracts; this is not all science here, he has discovered a way to imbue spells into new forms. He's essentially crafting fireballs. Just throw a bit more magic into the alchemy process: have his extracts glow like they were lit up by a light spell; make him a Snapeish kind of fellow.
High fantasy gunslingers... can't really help you there. Maybe the spellslinger?
I know the gunslingers and alchemists are popular, but to me, in my games of high fantasy, they're just so anachronistic as to seem 'unreal'... I could see a gnome alchemist or gunslinger as comic relief and even that's a stretch.
I realize that these opinions are my own, and they're likely in the minority, but I never even consider them when it comes to suggestions because they would never appear in our games - unless we're playing Rifts or something.
High fantasy alchemists can work. Remember that the alchemist is infusing magic into each of his bombs and extracts; this is not all science here, he has discovered a way to imbue spells into new forms. He's essentially crafting fireballs. Just throw a bit more magic into the alchemy process: have his extracts glow like they were lit up by a light spell; make him a Snapeish kind of fellow.
High fantasy gunslingers... can't really help you there. Maybe the spellslinger?
An alchemist as an NPC or an odd villian perhaps, but toting around essentually unlimited caustic chemicals and explosive compunds through dungeons and ruins?
Nah. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Mercurial, thanks much for these posts! They are awesome!
Glad I could help.
I'm actually holding back the big gun, the character I play...
I'm actually holding back the big gun, the character I play...
Is it your dragon disciple ?
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Okay, what's all allowed for this? Are guided weapons allowed for this? If not, please switch the Wisdom boost to Dex Boost, and feel free to dump Str to a 7 if you wish for 4 more points.
Uriel the Firestorm
Human Gunslinger 5/Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/ Bard (Dawnflower Dervish if you only want to buff yourself) 12
Attributes:
STR - 10
DEX - 16
CON - 10
INT - 10
WIS - 16 (+2 Racial, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th)
CHA - 14
Traits:
Hermean Blood (+2 to initiative)
Carefully Hidden (+1 to Will save and +2 to saves against Divination)
Feats
H-Rapid Reload (Double Pistol)
1(B)-Gunsmith
1-Two Weapon Fighting
3-Deadly Aim
4(B)-Point Blank Shot
5-Quick Draw
6(B)-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7-Weapon Focus (Double Pistol)
7(B)-Rapid Shot
9-Snap Shot
11- Combat Reflexes
13-Improved Snap Shot
15-X
17-X
19-X
My fave damage dealer is a Gunslinger duel wielding Guided Double Barrel'd pistols for this one, each on weapon cords. Guided allows you to base your attack and damage roll off of your Wisdom (It's listed as a ranged enchant, so it should work for the guns), which is just nice since it's the stat you base your grit off as well.
Getting a pair of these will run you about 20k, which is most of your gold (the only real problem here, since some will argue you can't spend that much on weapons, but if not, it's an eventuality). Now with that and your gun training, you'll be doing Wis+Dex per shot. That's pretty substantial for any shot, but we're not done yet.
Now double pistols will let you fire both barrels as one attack with a -4, which equivocally doubles your amount of shots fired. You're going to be having to use Alchemical cartridge, paper with the Rapid Reload feat to get your reload time down to a free action, which is what you want. What you would do is start with one weapon hanging from the cord, making all your short with the other while reloading it with your free hand. Once all those attacks were made, you drop the first weapon and pull the second up as a swift action as per the wording on the weapon cord, repeating the process with your left hand. Again, your GM may say that you can't reload with a 'corded' hand, although that's more of a personal call since the wording on finer action isn't well defined. So at Lv 7, we're looking at:
+4/+4/+4/+4/-1/-1/-1/-1
-4 Double Shot
-4 Duel Wielding
-2 DA
+7 BAB
+1 Ench
+1 PBS (You have a pistol, you should almost always be in range for this)
+1 W. Focus
+4 Wis
Your bonuses to hit aren't great, but considering you're putting 8 shots in the air, it's worth it. But the damage for those are going to be:
1d8+13 damage
+4 DA
+4 Wis
+3 Dex
+1 Ench
+1 PBS (Again, you should be close enough)
That's pretty terrifying when you have 8 bullets in the air doing that. Another thing you'll have to watch out for though is with that many shots getting fired, your 1-3 misfire chance (1-2 for the gun, and +1 for the ammo) will probably come up, so take mind of that and work on ways to reduce it as best you can (Reliable when you can afford it).
The Fighter levels are just so you can get Weapon Training on your guns for another +1, but more importantly, to qualify for Dueling Gloves to add another +2 to attack and damage since we're trying to make a damage monster. Post fighter, you're going Bard only for Inspire Courage and spells to buff your damage output even more. You can go Dawnflower Dervish if you feel like being selfish, as it doubles the IC benefits, which considering the amount of shots you'll be getting off by then, will be rather insane. The feat progression stops there because at that point, everything else is just perfect. The Bard's buff spells can be pretty helpful in making your damage even more insane if you prebuff. Probably the worst thing about the build is the amount of swift actions it can possibly eat up considering your swift action is most likely going to be dropping and picking up your firearms. Once you have your bard magic, I'd simply start combat by dancing and casting a spell.
If you weren't feeling Bard, you could do Ranger or keep at Fighter if you want, but Bard is going to do the most for you with buffing yourself like mad. And if you're not going Bard, probably swap around the Charisma to Int-13, Con-12 for some more skills and hit points.
I think that's the old Firestorm build, but I might have messed up some stuff, tell me if you see any flaws in it and I'll be sure to check it out.
DPR-wise thats not really working out
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Actually, i've grown quite attatched to the monk class (gotta love +6 misc AC), it would be really helpful if someone knew a broken monk build.
OK, here is a 20-point buy monk who can function as a scout, but should be effectively unhittable. You aren't going to actually damage anything, even if you hit it, but you should annoy the hell out of people.
FOR INH CR 6
Male Human (Taldan) Monk 7
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +14
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DEFENSE
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AC 26, touch 22, flat-footed 20. . (+3 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 38 (7d8)
Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
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OFFENSE
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Spd 50 ft.
Melee Cold Iron Siangham +10 (1d6/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Sai +11 (1d4/20/x2) and
. . Mithral Kama +11 (1d6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10 (1d8/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Shuriken +11 (1d2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +5/+5/+0, Ki Strike, Magic
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 19/21, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +12 (+14 Disarming); CMD 27 (29 vs. Disarm)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse
Traits Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device, Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +14, Disable Device +18, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (History) +5, Knowledge (Religion) +5, Perception +14, Ride +9, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +15, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ AC Bonus +5, Fast Movement (+20'), High Jump (+7) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Slow Fall 30' (Ex), Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d8), Vow of Truth (+1 Ki), Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear Cold Iron Siangham, Masterwork Sai, Masterwork Shuriken (50), Mithral Kama; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Bracers of Armor, +3, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Protection, +1, Thieves' tools, masterwork
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+7) (Ex) +7 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) At 4th level, ki strike allows a monk's unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+1 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh: Climb Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
Fighting defensively you take a -1 to hit and +3 to AC, and deflect one attack per round automatically, and attack them back as an AoO. Burn a point of ki as well and your AC is up to 33, very respectable for 7th level. Recommend you get Combat Reflexes as soon as you may, so you can really take advantage of deflected attacks. Oh, and remember you can Disarm as an AoO.
I've given you a crappy selection of weapons, I'm afraid: mithral and cold iron will get you past most DR at this level, so you can at least tickle the enemy, but really you are not there to do damage but to soak up attacks. Disarming attacks will make the DM very frustrated! Get Improved Trip as soon as you can, too, and pump your dexterity.
As a bonus, you are a decent scout with good stealth and perception. I assumed two traits to give you Disable Device as a class skill, and boost your climb skill. You have 781 GP left to spend on potions, mundane gear and other stuff.
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Actually, i've grown quite attatched to the monk class (gotta love +6 misc AC), it would be really helpful if someone knew a broken monk build.OK, here is a 20-point buy monk who can function as a scout, but should be effectively unhittable. You aren't going to actually damage anything, even if you hit it, but you should annoy the hell out of people.
** spoiler omitted **...
Slight modification if you don't mind
Get rid of the bracers of armor (+9,000 gp)
Buy wand of mage armor (-750 gp)
Upgrade Amulet of natural armor to +2 (-6,000 gp)
Pros
1. Improves AC by 2 (+1 more armor and +1 more natural)
2. Saves 2,250gp, which can be used to upgrade the caster level of the wand creator to get more time out of each cast. Give it to your summoner companion for exclusive use on you.
Cons
1. Not self reliant (you require your summoner or another party member to use the wand on you)
I recommend this until you can afford or find Bracers of Armor +5 or better.
Or you could exchange the bracers for lots of potions of mage armour which don't require a caster - enough that you don't need to worry until you get the bracers at +4 or better.
Also it's always better to upgrade the ring before the amulet: deflection adds to touch AC, natural armour does not. On the whole, though, I prefer bonuses that don't require constant refreshing, and in any event with that AC most CR7 encounters are going to need a 20 to hit him anyway.
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Or you could exchange the bracers for lots of potions of mage armour which don't require a caster - enough that you don't need to worry until you get the bracers at +4 or better.
You get more bang for your buck with the wand though. Its 15gp a cast for the wand and 50 gp per potion. Kind of obnoxious price difference imo. (maybe double for the potion since anyone can drink it but over 4x the price is stupid, damn potion monopolies)
Also it's always better to upgrade the ring before the amulet: deflection adds to touch AC, natural armour does not. On the whole, though, I prefer bonuses that don't require constant refreshing, and in any event with that AC most CR7 encounters are going to need a 20 to hit him anyway.
Very true. And saves you a further 3,000 gp as upgrading the ring to +2 only costs 3,000.
so you would save a total of 5,250 if you bought a wand of mage armor, and upgraded the ring instead of getting the bracers. You just saved a bunch of GP on your character by switching to Mage Armor.
Enough for an Amulet of Mighty Fists...not that it will do you much good, but every little helps!
I'm actually holding back the big gun, the character I play...Is it your dragon disciple ?
Yah. That post is going to take a little longer than work will allow. I've actually got two versions of it, one more melee-centric and one more balanced - I prefer the balanced approach but the OP specified no casters... he also doesn't really hit his stride until 11-13th level which may be a bit higher than he had wanted.
Smash build:
(Can't really call this a 'Rogue' build after all...)Half-Orc Barbarian 2 (Invulnerable Rager) / Rogue (Thug & Scout) 18
Case in point:
At 7th level if you charge or move than 10' between attacks, you'll deal 2d6 (Earthbreaker damage) +6 (Strength) +6 (Power Attack) +6d6 (sneak attack) + 6d6 (Sap Master) +12 (Sap Adept) in non-lethal damage - assuming a non-magical weapon and no critical hits. That's 14d6+24 damage and, depending on your DM's interpretation, get you +3 or +6 AC or your troubles.
This is actually incorrect - sorry, I was doing most of this from memory and doubled up one of the bonuses. Damage dealt at 7th level when flanking or moving 10' should be: 2d6 (Earthbreaker damage) +6 (Strength) +6 (Power Attack) +3d6 (sneak attack) + 3d6 (Sap Master) +6 (Sap Adept) in non-lethal damage - assuming a non-magical weapon and no critical hits. That's 8d6+18 damage and, again not including magical weapons or any buffs including Rage.
a monk-magus build where you use elemental fist, a genie style and spellstrike with a touch spell that deals the same kind of energy damage could be pretty decent since you apply your wisdom modifier to all energy damage rolls. Unfortunately the only touch spells dealing energy damage don't progress further than caster level 5.
In Case of DD-brute-build the most tankish one is Pala4/Sorc1/DD10/FTR5
This build has the most melee-DPR of all DD-builds (at least to those posted here on the boards). It gives up spells like hell (but level 5 and 6 are not THAT attractive anyway if you want to be MELEEE:D) and ends up with impressive defense and even more rediculus offense. You can decrease the DPR a little bit and go for more rounded builds like more pala (Mercurial's 11pala build for example for better pala-spells and some more paladin stuff) or those sorc10 builds for way better spells - but when it comes to melee-DPR the one with 5 ftr levels is leading (if someone has an idea to improve that - go ahead!) An option is to switch DD9 and 10 for 2 levels of sorc for one more level of spell progression. You could even pick less DD, but more NA, Wings and Blindsense are just kinda neat.
Druid 6 Monk (flowing for sickened condition or sohei for not being surprised) 1
tiefling devil/asura spawn
1 racial heritage (+2 extra Wisdom)
3 power attack
5 multiattack
7 wild speech
Equipment:
amulet of mighty fists (guided) 5 k
Headband of inspired wisdom +2 4 k
ring of protection +1 2 k
bracers of armor +3 9 k (or if you put ranks in UMD, a wand of magic armor)
Stats (example 20 point buy):
10,14,12,10,18,7
Wisdom 18 + 4 + 1 + 2 = 25 (+7)
AC 10 + 3 armor + 1 dex* (wild shaped) + 7 nat + 1 defl - 1 size + 7 mnc = 28
Buff:
barkskin (+3)
greater magic fang (all nat weapons +1)
wild shape (dire tiger)
Attacks
unarmed strike (not using FoB!) +14 (pouncing), 1d4 + 7 + 1
claws x2 +12, 2d4 + 7 + 1
bite +12, 2d6 + 7 + 1
rake x2 +12, 2d4 + 7 + 1
PA active:
UA +12, 1d4 + 12
claws x2 +10, 2d4 + 10
bite +10, 2d6 + 10
rake +10, 2d4 + 10
For Nature Bond choose an animal companion, big cat or velociraptor for damage.
Then add whatever...
In Case of DD-brute-build the most tankish one is Pala4/Sorc1/DD10/FTR5
This build has the most melee-DPR of all DD-builds (at least to those posted here on the boards). It gives up spells like hell (but level 5 and 6 are not THAT attractive anyway if you want to be MELEEE:D) and ends up with impressive defense and even more rediculus offense. You can decrease the DPR a little bit and go for more rounded builds like more pala (Mercurial's 11pala build for example for better pala-spells and some more paladin stuff) or those sorc10 builds for way better spells - but when it comes to melee-DPR the one with 5 ftr levels is leading (if someone has an idea to improve that - go ahead!) An option is to switch DD9 and 10 for 2 levels of sorc for one more level of spell progression. You could even pick less DD, but more NA, Wings and Blindsense are just kinda neat.
Actually, the route I go is Half-Orc Paladin 11 (Vengeance)/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 8 for my melee guy and Half-Orc Paladin 2 (Sacred Shield)/Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 8 for the more caster-based one. In both instances I take advantage of the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish Bloodline.
The melee guy gives up so much spell-casting that he's pretty much only left with buff spells and a few utility spells, but he does swing that wicked Paladin stick. The ranged guy casts basically as a 16 level Sorcerer with a CL18 but has tremendous strength and natural armor buffs as well, allowing him to melee with the best of them.
Case in point: At 17th level with only his natural stats (no magic items) he can use the Power of Giants ability and cast the spell Transformation... that will ultimately result in a Strength of 40, a Constitution of 24, a Dexterity of 14, a +17 bonus to natural armor, an additional +5 to Fortitude saves, Reach with his weapons and +6 BAB which is enough to grant an additional attack each round. Self-applying Touch of Rage will grant another +8 attack and +8 damage for 1-4 rounds as well.
Now THAT is a tank-mage.
I know your builds and I did the calculations for both of them.
I know your builds and I did the calculations for both of them.
They've actually been tweaked since then.
;)
How does an ability that is in many situations stronger than irresistable dance and usable more than 10 times a day at LEVEL 8 sound?
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Scathing Tirade (Su):
A Chelish diva of 8th level or higher can use her performance to verbally lash out at another creature, causing it to become frightened. To be affected, the target enemy must be within 30 feet and be able to see and hear the diva’s performance. The effect persists for as long as the enemy is within 30 feet and the diva continues her performance, plus 1d4 rounds. Although the diva can only direct the effect at one creature at a time, its effects persist for as long as she continues the performance, even if directed at a different creature. For example, she could direct her tirade at an innkeeper, who becomes frightened, then focus her wrath on the captain of the guard, and the innkeeper remains frightened for 1d4 more rounds even though her attention is no longer directed at him.
This performance cannot cause a creature to become panicked, even if the target is already frightened from another effect. Scathing tirade is a mind-affecting fear effect, and it relies on audible and visual components.
This performance replaces dirge of doom.
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Frightened at no save, for the duration that you target them with your performance, plus 1d4 rounds thereafter (or for 1d4+2 rounds if you have lingering performance). NO SAVE, and you don't need a touch attack either.
Chelish Diva here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/chelish-diva
I know your builds and I did the calculations for both of them.They've actually been tweaked since then.
;)
I calculate them for all possible feat combinations - but if you found something actually new that really makes a difference - let me know, I'd be interested and my database is longing for any kind of input:D
I calculate them for all possible feat combinations - but if you found something actually new that really makes a difference - let me know, I'd be interested and my database is longing for any kind of input:DI know your builds and I did the calculations for both of them.They've actually been tweaked since then.
;)
I'll throw the build up later, I'm sure... it has to be said though, building purely for DPR is an intellectual exercise more than anything, especially when you sacrifice a wide range of abilities to do it. Factors such as versatility and survivability are equally important if not moreso.
I calculate them for all possible feat combinations - but if you found something actually new that really makes a difference - let me know, I'd be interested and my database is longing for any kind of input:DI know your builds and I did the calculations for both of them.They've actually been tweaked since then.
;)
BTW - I don't know why its not showing, but did you see this post in the thread?
This guy is the ultimate brute and plays like one.
Heh - I was just playing around with some numbers for the Half-Orc, and at 20th level, assuming generic equipment, he would deal 31d6+72 non-lethal damage with a single attack - assuming no crits - after which he would gain +9 dodge bonus to AC
12d6 (Large-sized Earthbreaker with Greater Vital Strike)
+1d6 (Flaming Weapon)
+5 (Weapon enhancement)
+9d6 (Sneak Attack)
+9d6 (Sap Master)
+18 (Sap Adept)
+15 (Power Attack)
+10 (Touch of Rage)
+16 (Strength)
+5 (Belt)
+3 (Rage)
Yea, even though the DD/Pala builds are pretty solid in survibvability anyway no matter how you build them.
My favorites are actually those who do not need transformation at lvl 20.
But I'd still go for wings because thats just really great, so something like pala 8 would be my favorite. But actually I really like the fighter-version if it goes up to really high levels. Armortraining is pretty cool for full speed in mithral fullplate and feats are always welcome in these builds. Weap. Training is just awesome as well, with FTR5 it brings +3/+3 what is pretty neat. If you're really going for a melee-brute thats a great choice because level 4 brings all those great selfbuffs with it. sadly level 5 spells are not that great to have for this kind of char while lvl 6 has transformation and contigency which both are pretty awesome for such a build - but transformation is not that neccessary if you have a higher BAB in general - and two buffs are really slowing down the DPR - probably way more than it brings in the end.
A nice alternative is using Eldritch Knight. It does not seem to be that attractive but if you do the calculation he's actually doing pretty good!
edit: yea, I saw that build - but the damage is actually not comparable to the DD-builds. The idea is cool though and probably on of the best ways to make something out of ba rogue:D
@ Dabbler - What do you plan on doing with him for future levels? Want to build him out to level 20, showing feats along the way? :P If not, thanks for the build anyway!
Take the feats: Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Mobility and Combat Patrol. Tie down large areas by tripping foes as they attack, then disarm them when they try and stand. Ki Throw can be fun as well, making your monk the judo expert who bounces around the battlefield flipping enemies over each shoulder into a big pile!
Get an Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as you may, and use it to boost your chances to hit and damage. This will increase your CMB as well. If you want top boost your damage, get the agile weapon property, that will replace Strength bonus with Dex bonus to damage. Then take Hammer the Gap to boost damage further when you flurry.
I won't give you a specific table, you need to pick your own feats to fit the campaign that you are on - maneuvers will not help if you know you are going into a dragon's nest, for example.
I'm rather surprised that a discussion on broken melee builds got this far without AM Barbarian being mentioned.AM is smarting slightly from RAGELANCEPOUNCE being nerfed.
Nerfed how?
If I recall correctly, because it was stated that you can't pounce with a lance.
But it doesn't matter, because RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anyway, because BattyBat is the only one of the two that could see the target to make an attack in the first place. :P
I'd rather use Kukris, wakizashi is only an average of 1 damage more than a kukri, and that feat can be used for something more useful. Also, your build lists weapon spec at level 3, which is impossible.I humbly submit my own build, the Crit Fiend. He's a fighter, easy to play, and while he might not be broken he's probably a step up from what you have now.
Also, there are a multitude of guides to be found here.
What level are you? That's a pretty big factor.
i wouldn't recommend two-weapon defense either. waste of a feat when you can just buy the ring of force shield for 8500g or get a blocking weapon (which granted you need to fight defensively with).
If I recall correctly, because it was stated that you can't pounce with a lance.
But it doesn't matter, because RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anyway, because BattyBat is the only one of the two that could see the target to make an attack in the first place. :P
Where is this limitation on pounce found? I could not find it in the SRD. Are there other weapons that you cannot pounce with? This will be relevant for at least 2 characters in my current game.
I could be remembering wrong. There's also JJ's statement where Iteritive attacks don't work with Pounce.
To answer your question on how to make an effective character... Well it all depends on the party dynamics, hence why people have been asking for more details.
Instead of trying to compete with the Summoner (And his Eidolon) try to compliment him.
I'm personally attracted to Casters because they have ample opportunity to help the party without trying to replace other players. My favorite class, the Wizard, is all about dropping Battlefield Control and organizing the situation into your favor.
I'm currently working on a Bard that effectively doubles the party's damage through Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Haste, and Tactical Acumen.
If you really don't like casters, make a Cavalier and be a good flanking buddy with the Eidolon, sharing your Teamwork feats. Play a Paladin and focus on defending the Summoner from the DM being a jerk and focus firing him. Be a switch-hitter Ranger and give long range support and have your pet be the flanking buddy.
There are lots of things you can do.
Actually we already have a support guy, but he is somewhat selfish(...i think, haven't seen the summoner rules...) and the only spells he uses on anyone but his eidilon are haste.
Yea, even though the DD/Pala builds are pretty solid in survibvability anyway no matter how you build them.
My favorites are actually those who do not need transformation at lvl 20.
But I'd still go for wings because thats just really great, so something like pala 8 would be my favorite. But actually I really like the fighter-version if it goes up to really high levels. Armortraining is pretty cool for full speed in mithral fullplate and feats are always welcome in these builds. Weap. Training is just awesome as well, with FTR5 it brings +3/+3 what is pretty neat. If you're really going for a melee-brute thats a great choice because level 4 brings all those great selfbuffs with it. sadly level 5 spells are not that great to have for this kind of char while lvl 6 has transformation and contigency which both are pretty awesome for such a build - but transformation is not that neccessary if you have a higher BAB in general - and two buffs are really slowing down the DPR - probably way more than it brings in the end.A nice alternative is using Eldritch Knight. It does not seem to be that attractive but if you do the calculation he's actually doing pretty good!
edit: yea, I saw that build - but the damage is actually not comparable to the DD-builds. The idea is cool though and probably on of the best ways to make something out of ba rogue:D
While your 'calculations' are fine for an intellectual exercise and give a fair benchmark of a character's pure offensive power, I'm not entirely certain how useful they are in a game situation. For instance, your determinations basically presume that combat begins with foes toe-to-toe with one another and doesn't take into what the target might be capable of defensively. I would much rather an character with an offensive rating of '9', so to speak, who can also deal with variable threats, survive long enough to deal his damage, overcome resistances and terrain obstacles, avoid conditions laid on him and potentially aid his comrades in the damage THEY deal as well... as opposed to someone who's offensive rating might be a '10' but can't do one or more of those things.
Think about it - who's dealing more damage, the Greatsword Fighter with the optimized build or the bard who's making both he and the rest of the party hit harder, hit more often and keeps them alive longer than they otherwise would have been to continue dealing damage?
Well, as I mentioned earlier there are builds that are better rounded than the fighter one. But if you're aiming for a true melee brute, the one having the fighter gank rule, the primary frontloner - then this build is probably what you want. Because you have the best defense, mobility and damage. Yes, you are lacking versatility there. If you want to have versitility with more spells (no matter weather pala or sorc) then go for a different build. But as frontliner mobility, defense and offense are your main focus and then this is the way to go.
The only thing I dont get why you dont want wings in your build...?
No wings and no armortraining means that you will everything but mobile - but probably I just missed something:D
Personally I'd go with something castier as well if I didnt want/have to be the primary melee tank.
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Think about it - who's dealing more damage, the Greatsword Fighter with the optimized build or the bard who's making both he and the rest of the party hit harder, hit more often and keeps them alive longer than they otherwise would have been to continue dealing damage?
I 100% agree with this, and for myself, that is exactly the type of character I usually like to play. (I've got a Fght/Brd whip-wielder that is a beast for battlefield control and survivability)
But the OP did state that he hates playing support characters. Since that is not his cup of tea, the idea is to build a character centered around getting the biggest damage bonuses per hit. I would particularly imagine that if he's not a big fan of support characters, he is not going to be getting the best use out of them anyway, since he won't initially see the use of their support abilities in a given combat situation.
Play a Commoner and MAKE THEM CRY.
ROFL
Thanks for the help everybody! however, i wont be needing this for a while, the maneuver master i threw together last week (based on AoO and tripping, literally a trip monkey because it is vanaran) turns out to be amazingly powerful, rarely misses, and gives more AoO opportunities to the entire party.
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Mercurial: I'm building a wiki for guides and builds. I liked the two builds that you posted so much that I rewrote them on the wiki, giving you full credit. You can find them here and here. I've given all credit to you. If you don't want the builds up, please tell me, and I can take them down (but hey, free publicity!)
If you want a broken monk, the best I can think of Is a tetori grappler. But the payoff will be more toward mid game. Combine the abilities given to you with the following feats and you end up pretty nasty.
rapid grappler
body shield
advanced cmd training
and then either the snapping turtle style or crane style. Personally I prefer the snapping turtle clutch because you can initiate grapples off of missed attacks.
Smash build:
(Can't really call this a 'Rogue' build after all...)Half-Orc Barbarian 2 (Invulnerable Rager) / Rogue (Thug & Scout) 18
The Barbarian levels are taken firstAttributes:
STR - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th, +1 at 16th and 20th)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 14 (+1 at 4t, 8th and 12th)Traits:
Berserker of the Society
Opportunistic Gambler
Toothy (racial alternative trait)Feats and Class abilities:
1st - Power Attack
2nd - Intimidating Glare (Rage Power)
3rd - Bludgeoner
4th - Furious Focus
5th - Sap Adept
6th - Offensive Defense
7th - Sap Master
8th - Strong Impression
9th - Skill Focus: Survival
10th - Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Strength of the Beast)
12th - Unwitting Ally
13th - Combat Reflexes
14th - Opportunist
15th - Dreadful Carnage
16th - Bleeding Strike
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline (Power of Giants)
18th - Vital Strike
19th - Improved Vital Strike
20th - Greater Vital Strike
You do not qualify for greater vital strike with a BAB of +15, touch of Rage counts as a 1st lvl SLA if I am not mistaken though, so I'd consider quicken SLA, meaning you qualify for it by lvl 13, might be a worthwhile replacement.
I am also not sure you will need to boost charisma that much, I am inclined to only put one point in it and take a headband of charisma +2 to compensate for the other two points, allowing you to boost strength a bit more.
I'm kind of bad at making characters, and I have the worst character in the party. I need help making a broken character to get on the same level as the broken summoner in my party. I want to know good builds (preferably not spellcasters), but also advice on making characters in the future.
At level 7, and i want to focus on either damage or ability to hit on most attacks.
If you're not interested in playing a caster, I guess half-dragon barbarian 6 is your best bet (at level 7). Try getting your GM to allow that.