Feint and all the many varieties of feinting
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Feint is a bluff check against the target's sense motive. This usually takes a standard action, allowing you to catch them flatfooted the next term. I don't know if Pathfinder has the feat Improved Feint in any of the books, but in 3.5 it allowed you to reduce this time to a move action. Additionally, if you have concealment from the target either via invisability or something lesser with a hide check and the target is does not have concealment to you this would also allow you to take advantage of them being flatfooted. Finally, there are Crit Cards in the Deck of Critical Hits that could result in the target becoming flatfooted with regards to you.
What's your goal? What will flat-footedness gain you that simply denying DEX to AC will not?
Distracting Attack rogue talent will do it as well, but only for others and not yourself. The ideal rogue partner has a 2 level dip in rogue to make things flatfooted for him.
Some people swear by the scout archtype.
Sap Master only works if the foe is flatfooted. He stated that he wishes to use sap master feat.
Yeah, sorry, just deleted my question since I realized that the answer was somewhere in his complex build. (Wouldn't have done that if I'd seen your post, 42 seconds before.) Thank you for explaining it!
I feel like I shouldn't contribute to this monster, but I must. Scout replaces Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which the Ninja has, so there's no conflict there. It's an alternate class of Rogue, which is just an archetype writ large. I don't see why a Ninja couldn't be a Scout.
Have you considered adding Ride-By Attack to this build? Sure, you want to be at the monster's side after your charge, but the feat also lets you charge creatures with reach without provoking.
Prescient Attack.
Denied dex, not the same thing as flat footed.
prototype00
P.s. As an aside, does scouts charge work against enemies with uncanny dodge, as it doesn't actually make them flat footed (which uncanny dodge would prevent), but you sneak attack them as if they were?
If so, its slightly better in that regard than shatter defenses.
Denied dex, not the same thing as flat footed.
prototype00
Right you are.
Scout's charge calls out that uncanny dodge defends against it. I'm going to work on this some more tonight.
Ah, so it does.
prototype00
The seven-branched sword from Ultimate Combat can make an opponent flat-footed, but that probably doesn't help a Sap Master very much.
I feel like I shouldn't contribute to this monster, but I must. Scout replaces Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which the Ninja has, so there's no conflict there. It's an alternate class of Rogue, which is just an archetype writ large. I don't see why a Ninja couldn't be a Scout.
Alternate Classes: "Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
A ninja cannot be a scout or any rogue variant.
If the GM allows it then it's OK. A lot of GMs probably would allow it. it depends on whether the OP's GM will, though.
Goodness, this discussion rears it's head again. I think the consensus is (backed up by either SKR or JJ) that alternate classes are one big archetype, and that if archetypes meld, according to the rules, thats fine.
prototype00
Alternate Classes: "Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."
A ninja cannot be a scout or any rogue variant.
See, here's the thing - I don't read that passage the same way you do. It doesn't say, "You cannot apply rogue archetypes to the ninja class." In fact, it says "An alternate class operates exactly as a base class…" with the sole caveat being that you cannot take levels in, for example, rogue AND ninja. Now I'm not saying that you are incorrect (or correct). What I'm saying is that the wording on that passage does not cover this situation.
EDIT: Keeping in mind that I would not allow a monster like this to be played at my table. This is merely the rakshasa's advocate speaking.
It's a knee-jerk reaction, I'll admit. Something that's triggered by builds that get two full round actions a round with double sneak attack dice.
That being said,
a) it does take a long time to build up to the full combo
b) it's nonlethal damage, which many things are immune to
c) it appears difficult to pull this trick off more than once a combat
I still fall on the side of not allowing something like this in my game, but I would be curious to hear how it actually plays out.
I had an encounter last night where my Rogue was firing arrows at a Cleric 9 using Airwalk. That wasn't giving me sneak attack, but once he (hehe) cast Deeper darkness I drank a Potion of Truestrike and Bam! he's flat-footed while in the darkness, right?
Doesn't a Rogue receive sneak attack damage if enemy loses Dex bonus to AC? Isn't being caught flat-footed the same thing? Don't you lose Dex bonus to AC if caught flat-footed?
The flat footed condition is required for the extra damage from Sap Master. Otherwise, yes, you're correct about denied dex being all a rogue needs for SA.
prototype00
No, if he can't see you he is just denied Dex to AC. Sneak attack damage would happen but sap master wouldn't work if you even can with say blunt arrows. Not sure if it works that way.
Doesn't a Rogue receive sneak attack damage if enemy loses Dex bonus to AC? Isn't being caught flat-footed the same thing? Don't you lose Dex bonus to AC if caught flat-footed?
(1) Yes.
(2) No. For instance, you can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed (without Combat Reflexes), but you can make them while you're denied your Dex bonus to AC.
(3) Yes.
Sorry...I must of glossed over the Sap master part, but thanks. Also didn't flying also lose Dex bonus to AC? Airwalk not considered flying?
Also didn't flying also lose Dex bonus to AC? Airwalk not considered flying?
Maybe you're thinking of climbing vs. Spider Climb?
I realize that any "speed" grants character its Dex bonus to AC, but if you don't have that "speed" then you're denied Dex? I'm trying to maximize my Rogue's sneak attack with this being my initial PF character.
Bumping up an old thread I know but does anyone have further input on this? To the original question I mean? More ways to make someone flat-footed?
Thanks
The order of the land's first ability allows you to make one enemy flat-footed against all your attacks for one round.
Stag's Helm Helm lets you make three ranged attacks per day which treats the enemy as it was Flat-Footed.
If your campaign uses Unchained poisons, use a Dex Poison.
Thanks for the additions, anything else? Spells maybe?
When you attack an opponent that's denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you deal 1d6 points of extra precision damage for every 3 medium levels. Your target counts as flat-footed against the first attack you make against that target in a day, regardless of abilities like uncanny dodge. After your first attack, that target is immune to being made flat-footed by your surprise strike for 24 hours.
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When benefiting from concealment, a rogue with this talent can forgo an attack of opportunity to attempt a Stealth check against the provoking opponent’s CMD. Success allows the rogue to treat her opponent as flat-footed against the rogue’s first melee attack before the end of her next turn. Using this ability does not count against the rogue’s available attacks of opportunity for the round. A rogue must be trained in Stealth to select this talent.
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You can charm people into lowering their defenses, allowing you to ambush them more effectively.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Persuasive, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: When you succeed at a Diplomacy check to change a creature’s attitude, you can draw a weapon and make a single melee attack against that creature as an immediate action. If you changed your target’s attitude to friendly or better, your target is considered flat-footed against this attack. If the target survives, it takes a –2 penalty on its initiative check for this combat.
Once you attack a creature, its attitude becomes hostile.
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Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot shoulders; Price 22,000 gp; Weight 6 lbs.
Description
This heavy cloak is made from the hide of a bulette, its thick gray leather heavily abraded and seemingly always dusty, and features a plated dorsal fin that protrudes from between the wearer’s shoulders.As a standard action, the wearer of a groundbreaker cloak can dive into the ground, gaining a burrow speed of 20 feet through sand, soil, gravel, and loose stone. While burrowing, the wearer cannot run or charge and must travel along the surface, leaving the exposed dorsal plate visible from above. As the wearer burrows, displaced dirt swells before her and collapses behind her to create difficult terrain in her wake. She has cover from attacks while burrowing. Unless the wearer has some other means of breathing while submerged, she must hold her breath while burrowing. Emerging from the ground is a move action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Once per day, the wearer can perform a charge attack by diving deep into the ground, burrowing up to 40 feet in a straight line (ignoring any obstacles that don’t extend at least 10 feet into the ground) and bursting forth into a square adjacent to a target creature. This use of the cloak does not disturb the terrain as noted above, except where the wearer enters and exits the ground. The wearer ends this movement standing and the target of the charge is considered flat-footed against the attack.
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Aura moderate conjuration; CL 10th
Slot feet; Price 27,000 gp; Weight —
Description
These fur-lined boots grant the wearer the ability to glide easily across icy surfaces. While doing so, the wearer adds 15 feet to her speed, and she does not need to make Acrobatics checks to run or charge on ice. While fighting on ice, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on combat maneuver checks and to CMD.Once per day, the wearer may cause all surfaces within a 30-foot radius of himself to become covered in a thin sheet of ice for 10 rounds. A creature can walk within or through this icy area at half normal speed with a successful DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can’t move in that round, while failure by 5 or more means it falls. A creature using Acrobatics in this way is considered flat-footed and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC.
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Spells:
Recoil Fire
Any spell which forces an Acrobatics check.
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I think that's pretty much it.
Well, all of the spells that make you paralyzed or helpless...
The Obliviating enchantment in Inner Sea Intrigue can make someone flat footed in the middle of combat. Requires a critical hit and then for them to fail a save, though.
OBLIVIATING
PRICE +2 bonus
CL 10th
AURA modern enchantmentThis special ability can be placed only on bludgeoning melee weapons. Whenever the wielder deals critical hit damage or sneak attack damage with an obliviating weapon, the victim loses all memory of the previous 1d6 minutes unless it succeeds at a DC 16 Fortitude saving throw. If it fails the saving throw, it becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
COST +2 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, modify memory