Well I would check out Treemonks site
https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfMTFmNXdwM2ZjeA
Conjurers can be really powerful and the site has some great advice on what spells, magic items, skills, and prestige classes are your best options
Sorry I meant treantmonk
Leadership and Antagonize are usually considered "cheese" feats, and the Synthesist Summoner might just be the "cheesiest" class. Do any of those tickle your fancy?
Mastersummoner.
Here's a suggestion: Don't TRY and compete with them all. Do something none of them can do instead. If they all dish mega-damage, focus on battlefield control, or maneuvers, or utility spells.
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I can't see how to get XTREME at battlefield control without getting my DCs higher...which isn't terribly easy to do.
Oh yes it is (for someone anyway). Post your build here and someone will definitely be able to tell you how to get much higher Save DCs pretty quickly.
That'd be my reccomendation. Don't switch away from your existing character, just rebuild him to be more focused and optimized.
So I will be the one to ask ...
What level are you?
What races were allowed?
What was the stat array or creation method?
How much leniency do you have to change the character?
Is the Wealth by Level chart used for character creation?
Urban Barbarian + Elven Curve Blade + Agile Weapon Enhancement = doubling helpings of Lotta AC and Lotta Damage.
You aren't going to be able to make those kind of characters without using the same rules as they are. Much of the abuse-able stuff they are using comes from 3.5, and you can't replicate using pure PF.
Also, damage is the least important thing you can do as a wizard. Your GM is raising the DCs far above what should be appropriate for the level of the party, due to how optimized the party is (or munchin the party is, these types of groups tend to play fast and loose with the rules too, I would audit the other players to get some ideas of what they are doing so you can be on a level field). I would look into the tricks of making your DCs higher. Or using only spells that don't allow saves because they alter the environment.
If your summons are getting swatted so easily, I assume his monsters are FAR above party level, most summons even if they are cast at lower level (to get more) should last more than a single hit. It could also be that the GM is not really playing by the rules, and just rolling dice for show.
Balance is of course relative. When you create a "balanced" character, it is relative to what you expect the game to be played at. I try to optimize my characters when I play as much as I can without compromising flexibility. I consider my characters to be powerful, but balanced, but I've had a GM complain about power gaming. I've that same character in another game, and had it be underwhelming compared to the rest of the party, and barely able to keep up with monsters.
When you play in a group that is blatantly a power gaming group and show up with a "balanced" character your are basically being "that guy" who shows up with a handicapped and useless character.
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AMY ALCHY?
Say Ravingdork's name three times and summon him. He seems to be great at legal cheese.
Here's a suggestion: Don't TRY and compete with them all. Do something none of them can do instead. If they all dish mega-damage, focus on battlefield control, or maneuvers, or utility spells.I've tried that...it is what the character was built to do since they already have a Sorceror acting as a mobile weapons platform. The enemies are beating my DCs easily, though, and ignoring nearly all of my control spells except for the Create Pit line. I'm not happy just being the buffer, which is what I've been relegated to.
Pretty much the only thing the party can't do to the XTREME right now is stealth/precision damage/skill monkey and battlefield control. They have a rogue, but she just kinda runs around hiding and doing nothig else.
I can't see how to get XTREME at battlefield control without getting my DCs higher...which isn't terribly easy to do.
It requires you boost your intelligence up, and with the DM controlling what items you have, that's basically up to him. Otherwise, you can use spells that don't have saves, but it's very limiting.
Frankly I don't blame the rogue for hiding, sounds like he's as over-matched as you are. You could try pointing out to the DM that by trying to challenge the cheese-mongers, he's basically comming up with foes only the cheesemongers can beat, leaving everyone else twiddling their thumbs, but I doubt it will make much difference.
At the end of the day, if it isn't fun playing the game their way, then don't. No gaming beats bad gaming. If I was faced with this scenario I'd offer to DM a game and play it by the rules, no cheese permitted. The encounters should be challenging without making half the party feel useless, and that's how I'd do it. If they didn't like it, then I tried. If they do (and they may appreciate the challenge) then it's a win.
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Well, with that stat spread, I'd replace Craft Wand with Craft Wondrous Item and get a Headband of Intelligence ASAP (a +4 one if you can swing the cash, which is a bit doubtful, I admit). And replace Improved Initiative with Greater Spell Focus (for now, I'd re-grab Improved Initiative at 7th). You could also see if he'll let you be Middle Aged, which would up your Save DCs even more.
That'll give you +2 (or maybe even +3) to your Save DCs right there (for a total of DC 20 or 21 instead of 18), for very minimal changes.
Even CR 10s won't shrug those off, as long as you target their weakest Save category (you do have spells targeting al three, right?)
That's just off the top of my head as someone who doesn't play focused casters much, mind you.
You might also poach some 3.5 spells, I'm sure there are some hideously broken ones to be found, and it's not like anyone else is sticking to Pathfinder.
In a party like this I'd go full-on cheese-whiz.
What magic items did the GM give you?
Play a druid. Use 3.5 rules liberally. Have an ape animal companion and deck him out in humanoid magical studded leather armor and give him magic weapons. Use the "Spell Compendium" for your spells, focus on "Bite of the ____" spells ("Bite of the Wererat" is one of the best and it's a level 2 spell). Use a rod of lesser extend and buff your ape animal companion with BotWR each encounter. Grab a few pearls of power so you can do this multiple times a day.
Get "augment summoning" and pick the trait that lets you cast a spell as if you were a level higher. Convince your GM that should work with all SNA spells. Throw your cheesed up battle-ape and a few summoned buffed up pouncing leopards at your enemies. If you want you can even wild shape yourself and add yet another melee combatant to the party. Since he's allowing 3.5 content, demand that you use the 3.5 wildshape rules.
If you prefer to stay out of combat, make sure you have a high dex and blast at the enemy with "splinterbolt" and other Spell compendium druid ray blaster spells.
On your turn in each round you will be controlling at least three damage-inducing characters, if not four or more. Total up your damage and at the end of each round announce how much damage you were able to do all by yourself.
When they get sick of this nonsense suggest that they play an actual game of Pathfinder.
Leave the group.
or
Play a barbarian alchemist.
or
Play pun pun.
or
talk to your DM.
I suggest 4 1 2 3 in that order.
Here's what I did in that case. I ran a cleric with a VoP & vow of non-violence (or something like that), who specialized in healing and party buffing. Nothing min-maxed. I Roleplayed the heck out of him. Since no one there had ever heard of anyone playing D&D as a team, they all loved my PC, and slowly my example began to wear off on them.
Try it. Be better than them.
Just because you are asking for blatant rules cheese, i think i will give a stap at that.
So how do you feel about playing monk ?
So here is how you go cheesing with relatively small use of the 3.5 rules.
1. Build a PF monk, and take all feats in 3.5 and monsters manual that increases damage dice on unarmed strike as if you are larger. there is one in monsters manual and one in eastern classes or something (the 3.5 asian classes core book).
2. Mix in some of the 3.5 prestige classes such as psychic fist.
3. use spells to further enhance your unarmed attack dice, as if larger.
4. use power from psychic fist to turn into dire bear, and insist on using 3.5 rules for shapeshifting.
5. Enjoy a direbear with 140f speed and hitting for roughly 1000 damage a hit (192d8 + str) i think is max.
6. You should be able to enter and finish the fight before any of your party members get there, and then simply enjoy untill you get them to agree in playing standard pathfinder.
complete build can be found here.
I dont really condone it, but i wouldnt condone mixing 3.5 and pathfinder anyway, because this is what you would get.
Here's what I did in that case. I ran a cleric with a VoP & vow of non-violence (or something like that), who specialized in healing and party buffing. Nothing min-maxed. I Roleplayed the heck out of him. Since no one there had ever heard of anyone playing D&D as a team, they all loved my PC, and slowly my example began to wear off on them.
Try it. Be better than them.
Yeah, if you want want cheese look no further than the book of exalted deeds. The combo above is a great example.
I'm playing a Conjurer with the Teleportation sub-school in Carrion Crown, the guys been rocking. Given that you are 5th level and running up against CR 10s does nerf your little beasties that you summon. At 5th level I was running around summoning Lantern Archons, nice DR and a ranged touch that bypasses all DR. Now I'm 11th level (10 Wiz/1Loremaster) and am summoning Bralani(s), they are pretty bad-ass too.
My Feats are as follows:
Endurance (Bonus for Human)
Steadfast Determination--3.5, tanked my Wis
Scribe Scroll
Spell Focus Conjuration 3rd lvl
Augment Summoning 5th lvl
Extend Spell 5th lvl bonus
Superior Summoning 7th lvl
Skill Focus Knowledge Arcana 9th lvl
Craft Wonderous Items 10th lvl bonus
Acadamae Graduate 11th lvl (Crimson Crown Player's guide, DC 15+ SL FORT save or fatigued, but you get you monsters summoned in 1 SA)
Dimensional Agility 1st lvl LM secret
My DM has allowed for a little 3.5 material, and also allows me to use Dimensional Agility with the Shift ability. I also have a staff as a bonded item. Besides summoninga bunch of stuff, I also use the Conjure Pit line of spells along with Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill. We have a 5 member party--Inquisitor, Oracle of Life (man can he heal), Ftr/Cleric, and a Bard who buffs everyone once my guys show up.
For your particular problem of the bad guys beating your DCs, get a Rod of Persistance--makes them make 2 saves, then hit them with the pit and Stinking Cloud spells. (I have a Diviner with this Rod, really pisses the DM off, lol)
I've had a lot of fun playing this guy, hope things work out for you.
Skillfocus?
Steadfast Determination (-> Endurance)???
To be honest... I would not plas such a build. As sorcerer Maleconvoker maybe or... i dont know but this is just a little bit weird:P
Skillfocus?
Steadfast Determination (-> Endurance)???
To be honest... I would not plas such a build. As sorcerer Maleconvoker maybe or... i dont know but this is just a little bit weird:P
Yes, Endurance is required for Steadfast Dtermination, I tanked my Wisdom and increased my Con, I have 119 HP at 11th level. Skill Focus is required for Loremaster. I'm playing this character as a bookworm/nerd, I have all the knowledges except Nature, my ability checks are 21 in each,except for Arcana, that is 27 due to skill Focus, the knowledges have come in VERY handy during CC.
Just in case you don't kknow about SD, you use your CON modifier for your Will saves.
As a Loremaster I'll be getting 2 feats on every odd level, certainly not min-maxed, but I assure you he is very playable.
But yea - this thread calls for a "cheese" build:P
Your's is pretty interessting but wont let him compete in this case.
But yea - this thread calls for a "cheese" build:P
Your's is pretty interessting but wont let him compete in this case.
Yeah, I missed that everything from 3.5 was allowed, in which case my build has no business being here, BUT, the OP did want to stay as close to Pathfinder as possible.
But, yes you are right.
That being said, in my opinion, for straight cheese you can do no better than the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Well, there's always Druid.
My most recent cheese build has a lot of flaws, but its strengths are fantastic:
Witch,
Venerable Age Category,
Dump every stat but INT,
Take an 18 int, +2 for human, +1 level (in your case), +2 headband, +3 venerable, = 26 INT. More in other cheesy ways if you can squeeze it.
Go for a 3 Strength, because why not,
Take a handy haversack in starting gear so your encumbrance isn't crap
the trick:
IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE,
IMPROVED GRAPPLE, (+2 grapple)
KING CRAB FAMILIAR, (+2 grapple)
PREHENSILE HAIR, (int > str = +8 grapple)
STRANGLING HAIR SPELL, (an additional +5 to grapple when already grappling someone)
So with this build, you can deliver touch spells (e.g. vampiric touch) at 10' range, you can wrestle anyone who gets near you to the ground, including the Monkey Fist guy in your party who think's he's all hot sh1t, and your save DC for hexes is +8, which should compete with the high CR.
Your saves will suck and you're an old weakling, but you could certainly shine in certain scenarios. Plus you've got all the regular Witch stuff to fall back on.
I play him as a deranged Sea Hermit.
I'm sure there's ways to pimp the concept further using 3.5, but I really don't know a lot about the expansion books for that system.
beej...you are aware that if you grapple someone who isn't adjacent to you, you have to move them to be adjacent to you, right? And that while grappled, they can still full-attack you?
And you have d6 HD and bad AC?
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Don't try to out-cheese a cheesy group. They have WAY more practice at it than you. Try to do something they probably haven't thought of.
I remember when I played with a 3.5 game like that before Pathfinder. The group was hyper-optimized for damage, and I knew I couldn't compete with them... So I made a bard.
A Marshal 2/Bard X, to be exact. Took some feats to boost up my bardic music abilities to equal level, and used my sky-high Charisma modifier to buff the whole group with Marshal auras. That was an extreme case, but build a super-bard and just help out. It's a great way to feel like a strong addition to the group without having to go crazy.
Still think you should go with AMY ALCHY, if only so I can see how it does in actual play.
3.5 allowed? You have only one option if you want to stay your current character...
MALCONVOKER!!!!
But really - I had a cleric malconvoker who at level 8 could summon some sort of Yuugoloth that made the entire party obsolete after 2 buffs. 15 ft reach and 6 attacks + rend.. Yum. Then at level 10 you can summon 1d4+1 of them.
I would start with some Stilton, I would top that with some Entrammes and Halloumi, and then finish it off with some Manouri.
That should be cheesy enough.
The real build is at the bottom of the first post.
It is, as the title says, an exercise in ridiculousness.
I don't think your build is bad. You might not even need to change it at all considering 3.5 is allowed, you are a wizard - and spell compendium offers you pretty much anything you need.
First of all, look at the "Orb of ... spells" (Spell Compendium). Particularly orb of acid is nasty - no SR, no save. Even works on golems. And you have a high dex, so there's no problem.
For Pathfinder, look at spells that have negative effects even on a successful save. A prime example for that is ray of exhaustion. There are also spells that are hard to overcome and lock opponents in. You mentioned the "pit" spells, but there are also the "wall" spells.
Get flight as soon as you can, stay out of range and do everything from a save distance. Preferably invisible.
If that's not enough, it's feats. Particularly reserve feats are great if you use them well. They will give you a lot of always on abilities, increase difficulties of your DCs or CL, add special abilities etc.
Someone also mentioned Steadfast Determination which, though it will cost you another feat with endurance as well, will allow you to dump wisdom and optimize constituion - boosts your fortitude and your will saves and your HPs this way at once.
Finally, look at prestige classes. Particularly abjurant champion (Complete Mage) is powerful, I have had great success with it. Alternatively, Ultimate Magus might be worthwhile (also Complete Mage). Interestingly, it is a lot more powerful in Pathfinder than in D&D since you can choose the "sage" bloodline to use Int as your casting stat for both your arcane classes.
So much for first course of cheese ;-)
I agree though: It's not really great to try to win an arms race here. Also, though Pathfinder is really quite versatile and can make some very powerful characters, lots of the 3.5 stuff is plain broken. So you probably have to use that.
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Hey, I'm joining a new gaming group here in Korea and discovered today that my balanced Conjurer is completely overshadowed by every other member of the group to the point that it is un-fun. The GM all but actively encourages rules-cheesing...but I haven't tried to make a broken character in a very long, and neve rin PF.
He is allowing feats/races/classes from 3.5...but I'd like to stay pure PF if possible. I just want to be able to compete with characters like the Goliath barbarian with monkey grip and enlarged by the sorceror doing 5d6 per swing at level 5. And he is one of the less powerful characters. It is frustrating, and not really the type of game I like...but it is the only one in town at the moment, and I'm too busy to GM myself.
EDIT: We are level 5, and pretty much anything goes/is allowed.
tell your goliath that he cant monkey grip and use the powerful build together. if he tell you he can, ill prove him wrong. HMMM...
if i wanted to shut someone up who was power gaming, i think i would play a halfling cavalier. at level 5 you would be hitting, potion of lead blades + strength stacking... spirited charge... easily over 40 damage as a standard charge action.
now im not saying beat fire with fire, but i am saying that the goliath will be sad when you on hit everything, and your mount makes full attacks while charging.
What I did once in a 3.5 game was got my DM to approve the varient rule that lets you choose your own summon monster list. Then I populated my list with Gnolls who had levels in fighter :).
I made sure to optimize them to the max. I dumped their wis, int and cha and squeezed out another +2 or 3 to hit. It was so silly that I retired him after the first fight.
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I was bored, so I made a full level5 Amy Alchy: although I think herolab has problems with dragon style and feral combat training (dragon style not a feat?) and with hulking.
If you let feral combat training and dragon styles interact then it looks like attack of
+12(1d6+15)/+12(1d6+12)/+11(1d8+12)
at level 5
Using Wealth By Level you've got AC22 and 1000gp left (cloak of resistance +2, belt of giant strength +2, +1 agile breastplate)
Cheapy is an evil genius, even thinking about this build is now banned at my table.
AMY HAZCHEESEBURGERS CR 4
Male Changeling Alchemist (Beastmorph, Vivisectionist) 2 Fighter 1 Monk (Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2
LN Medium Humanoid
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +12
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19. . (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 40 (1d10+4d8+10)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Bite (Tusked) +9 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Changeling) +10 x2 (1d4+6/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +9 (1d6+9/20/x2)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +1d6
Alchemist (Beastmorph, Vivisectionist) Spells Known (CL 2, 9 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
1 (3/day) Deathwatch (x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 20/22, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 15
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats Blind-Fight, Brew Potion, Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6r, Dragon Style, Feral Combat Training: Claw x2 (Changeling), Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Power Attack -1/+2, Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 16), Throw Anything, Toughness +5, Weapon Focus: Claw
Traits Adopted, Freed Slave (Andoran), Tusked
Skills Acrobatics +8, Climb +8, Escape Artist +7, Fly +0, Perception +12, Ride +0, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +8, Survival +12, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +10 Modifiers Alchemy +2
Languages Aklo, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant
SQ Feral Mutagen (Su), Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex), Hulking Changeling (Ex), Mutagen (DC 15) (Su), Poison Use, Poisoning (Standard Action) (Ex), Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear +1 Agile Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Alchemy +2 (Su) +2 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6r Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style Gain +2 bonus against sleep, paralysis, and stun effects, and can ignore difficult terrain
Feral Combat Training: Claw x2 (Changeling) Use Improved Unarmed Strike feats with natural weapons
Feral Mutagen (Su) Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and
Freed Slave (Andoran) +1 Will saves.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Hulking Changeling (Ex) A changeling who was born of an annis hag is much more physically formidable than other changelings. You receive a +1 trait bonus on any damage you inflict with a melee attack.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mutagen (DC 15) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Poisoning (Standard Action) (Ex) Normal: Apply poison to a weapon as a standard action.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stunning Fist (2/day) (DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
I don't understand why dragon style would give you bonuses to natural attacks.
** spoiler omitted **...
Hmm... weren't changelings supposed to be female?
*ducks for cover*|
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I don't understand why dragon style would give you bonuses to natural attacks.
The question is: is a claw attack an unarmed strike?
If it is then they should work together.
If not, this cheese-monster loses 3 points of damage from each attack (6 from the first).
@Midnight Angel: didn't even look at setting the age, blame herolab's gender assumptions.