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This is not an LGBT issue, but we had a fire at work last night. Everyone got out safe and the investigation just started on what caused it. I don't know how long our store is closed. I'm sure I can work at another store until we reopen but I'm worried about some of my coworkers. They are complaining about their lungs and nasal passages hurting. I've already told them to file an L&I claim and see a doctor to make sure they are ok. Even though most of them weren't near the fire, smoke inhalation can still be dangerous especially to anyone with respiratory problems. CO levels rise quickly and most stores don't have adequate ventilation to deal with that.
The physical damage to the store is mostly smoke and water, which means that we probably will be able to reopen soon. We have never practiced any fire drills in the 13 years I've worked there but the team was amazing from what I've been told. They got everyone out quickly and safely in a matter of minutes. Everyone stepped up and no one panicked. Kudos to my coworkers. They are a great bunch of people.
glad to hear noone was hurt worse. Thank god you are alright.
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It's Celebrate Bisexuality Day today!
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I do not understand gender policing. Really, really do not understand it, on any level.
If the person next to me is male or female, or both or neither, or wants to swap off on alternate Wednesdays, it is utterly and completely None Of My Business. I truly don't care. All I need to know is what pronoun they prefer so I can use it and get on to the actual point of whatever interaction I'm having with them. Unless I am dating them, their gender is irrelevant. Does not matter, none of my concern, why would I care even in the smallest way?
Yet this is some of the most frequent and compulsive social behavior I see people engaging in. Somehow, most people are unhealthily obsessed with the gender status of everyone around them, and they will go to insane lengths to force others to behave in ways that fit their personal gender models, and stop them or punish them for gender role transgression. Bullying and violence are not at all uncommon in gender policing.
Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who are completely at the mercy of their monkey instincts and who rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior. That is the only conclusion I can really draw here.
How is that better then to label somebody from a different group with something ugly? Because as far as I can see the definition of 'neurotypical' most people I know as well as myself fit that definition (as far as I know I am neither autistic, dyslexic, dyspraxic, bipolar, sociopathic, or ADD/ADHD) and frankly, I find myself labeled here for no reason - I do not remember having bullied anybody in my life, in fact due to my statue I grew up pretty sensitive regarding bully-behavior, nor have I ever, as far as I can think, judged anybody for superficial reasons such as gender, gender behavior, color of skin, nationality etc. - have I given you a reason to do so? If so, please enlighten me.
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It's Celebrate Bisexuality Day today!
While I don't really feel like celebrating (for unrelated reasons), all of those who do: Have a great day!
I do not understand gender policing. Really, really do not understand it, on any level.
I think there's a tremendous amount of insecurity involved. Everybody knows that traditional gender roles are artificial, very silly, and hopelessly narrow. No one wants to actually live like that all their lives. Given that, you either admit it and try to be who you actually are and risk ridicule and censure, or you join the gender police. Or you stand aside and silently support the gender police.
Plus, of course, certain people benefit tremendously from traditional gender roles and many will not lightly yield their advantage.
That said:
Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who are completely at the mercy of their monkey instincts and who rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior. That is the only conclusion I can really draw here.
I find when I proceed from an assumption quite similar to that I predict behavior much more reliably than when I do otherwise.
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I also hate gender policing. What affects me more is enforced stereotypes. See I am gay and have a husband, I don't have a lilt in my voice I am not effeminate at all (and have no problem to those who are), I was raised a s a farm boy who played football and listened to country music. To this day I am just a usual guy personality and it freaks out every person who finds out I'm gay. I get a lot of "No Way, you can't be." or really freaked out guys who never saw it coming. Hey guys I got news for you, personality and homosexuality are not always related!!!!!
I do not understand gender policing. Really, really do not understand it, on any level.I think there's a tremendous amount of insecurity involved. Everybody knows that traditional gender roles are artificial, very silly, and hopelessly narrow. No one wants to actually live like that all their lives. Given that, you either admit it and try to be who you actually are and risk ridicule and censure, or you join the gender police. Or you stand aside and silently support the gender police.
Plus, of course, certain people benefit tremendously from traditional gender roles and many will not lightly yield their advantage.
That said:
Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who are completely at the mercy of their monkey instincts and who rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior. That is the only conclusion I can really draw here.I find when I proceed from an assumption quite similar to that I predict behavior much more reliably than when I do otherwise.
As far as I know "What a piece of work is a man..." is not ironic, but I have a hard time reconciling it with the intelligence of the writer and the character.
Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who are completely at the mercy of their monkey instincts and who rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior. That is the only conclusion I can really draw here.
Not okay, TanithT. Calling people animals without the capacity for rational thought or behavior is no more acceptable than people using that sort of terminology about LGBT folks, and your obvious frustration with the mistreatment of LGBT folks isn't a justification for engaging in dehumanization of people who are different from you.
Please do not do it again.
It's probably not, and I am probably being an angry jerk and venting frustration in a wider arc than is specifically deserved.
I also don't know how else to respond to the incredibly persistent phenomena of gender policing and people perpetually getting in other people's faces to tell them how they must conform to gender roles and may not step over the line, on the threat of violence. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that humans are naturally wired this way.
But there are also "neurotypical" and non-LGBT people who are supportive and don't engage in that sort of gender policing as well.
I think it's more cultural than hard-wired.
I do not understand gender policing. Really, really do not understand it, on any level.
If the person next to me is male or female, or both or neither, or wants to swap off on alternate Wednesdays, it is utterly and completely None Of My Business. I truly don't care. All I need to know is what pronoun they prefer so I can use it and get on to the actual point of whatever interaction I'm having with them. Unless I am dating them, their gender is irrelevant. Does not matter, none of my concern, why would I care even in the smallest way?
Yet this is some of the most frequent and compulsive social behavior I see people engaging in. Somehow, most people are unhealthily obsessed with the gender status of everyone around them, and they will go to insane lengths to force others to behave in ways that fit their personal gender models, and stop them or punish them for gender role transgression. Bullying and violence are not at all uncommon in gender policing.
Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who are completely at the mercy of their monkey instincts and who rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior. That is the only conclusion I can really draw here.
I agree with you for the most part. In my line of work, it can make a difference. I'm a pharmacy technician and there are medications that work differently for men and women and sometimes we have to dispense a medication that the insurance doesn't want to cover because the patient was born one sex but is now identifying as another and all they see is Male or Female. They don't always have a note in the patient's file to say that medication X is still appropriate. It's often a challenge to get it taken care of. Once it's taken care of, it's usually fine. These are medical reasons though, and not personal ones. Strangely enough we have similar issues with race sometimes (yes, some medications work slightly differently for different races).
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It's probably not, and I am probably being an angry jerk and venting frustration in a wider arc than is specifically deserved.
I also don't know how else to respond to the incredibly persistent phenomena of gender policing and people perpetually getting in other people's faces to tell them how they must conform to gender roles and may not step over the line, on the threat of violence. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that humans are naturally wired this way.
But there are also "neurotypical" and non-LGBT people who are supportive and don't engage in that sort of gender policing as well.
I think it's more cultural than hard-wired.
What I understood from Tanith's post is not that homophobia (etc.) is hard-wired, but that being horrible to people who seem in any way different is hard-wired. It takes the effort of exercising our reason to not react in that way, an effort we can't assume is the default reaction.
For me, it seems that being ready for either reaction, good or bad, is the rational way to approach the world.
I also hate gender policing. What affects me more is enforced stereotypes. See I am gay and have a husband, I don't have a lilt in my voice I am not effeminate at all (and have no problem to those who are), I was raised a s a farm boy who played football and listened to country music. To this day I am just a usual guy personality and it freaks out every person who finds out I'm gay. I get a lot of "No Way, you can't be." or really freaked out guys who never saw it coming. Hey guys I got news for you, personality and homosexuality are not always related!!!!!
I get the same thing as a bisexual crossdresser. I grew up in a military family and proudly served when I got out of high school. It wasn't to prove I'm a man or anything. I had always wanted to serve since I was a toddler. People are shocked when they find out I was infantry and my job was to train others on how to go to war and on different weapons. They don't seem to understand that I can like firearms, explosives, tanks, and lipstick and skirts.
Calling people animals without the capacity for rational thought or behavior is no more acceptable than people using that sort of terminology about LGBT folks, and your obvious frustration with the mistreatment of LGBT folks isn't a justification for engaging in dehumanization of people who are different from you.It's not even a specifically LGBT versus non LGBT issue. Humans in general are mad mob animals, socially hyperobsessed and irrational, and we are most certainly and provably primates. There tends to be a whole lot of delusion going on that we're not apes and not animals, but that's another bit of irrationality that simply does not jibe with scientific fact.
Humans behave almost exactly like monkeys, socially speaking. The main difference is that humans tell highly complex stories about how they're not monkeys and how their monkey behavior is justified and special. But it's still monkey behavior, the same as any primatologist would observe in a tree-swinging band. We simply have not evolved that far off from any other primate in many, many respects.
This isn't calling any specific groups of people names, this is being annoyed with the entire spectrum of primate social behavior and how very few people are even willing to admit that they are engaging in it.
I would buy this rationalization if you had applied it to all of humanity. But you applied it specifically to neurotypical folks, which is not okay. Please do not do it again.
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So I did reach out to Cassidy (the trans* homecoming queen) today, but don't know if she saw it. I tried on youtube and twitter, but that was probably lost in the flood of hatred. So I sent her a message on Facebook and a friend request.
This was the message:
Just writing you because I don't know if you'll see my comments on Youtube and Twitter, among all the hate that is flowing in. My story went public last week too, and while it hasn't exploded quite as much as your own, I've gotten the hate mail as well. Just know that what you have done means so very much to the community, and that you are a hero to many. Know that redacted who use the internet to attack you are cowards and ignorant, and that your friends and family support you no matter what. Know that there are people in the community that you can reach out to, I know Mia Macy and Vandy Beth Glenn both reached out to me when my story broke, and I'm now trying to do the same for you. You are so very brave and strong, and please don't let haters change that. It's gonna get better.
So I did reach out to Cassidy (the trans* homecoming queen) today, but don't know if she saw it. I tried on youtube and twitter, but that was probably lost in the flood of hatred. So I sent her a message on Facebook and a friend request.
Thanks Cori. That was great of you.
Cori, is there a list of links you could share for others to effectively reach out and offer encouragement and support to Cassidy? If we all go to those places and post positive things, it will at least be some balance for the haters who are saying ugly things.
Great idea.
And I wonder there'd be a way to point her to the #girlslikeus tag on Twitter. There's some noise there sometimes, but there's usually positive stuff. (It's something Janet Mock started, I think.)
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#TanithT: I get your frustration, and I don't hold it against you. I also think that, if you take a step back and look at the the number of 'neurotypical' humans that are supportive of the LGTB emancipation (or the neurotypical men that were supportive of the female-emancipation during the last century) it is not quite true. Sure, those people that live by hate, prejudice and general jerkiness are frustrating and often most noticable. Perhaps this behavior is hard wired instinct, but then it seems that there are quite a few neurotypical humans who are able to overcome this instinct.
Oh, and as a pagan I assure you that equating humans and animals was not what I found offensive in your statement ;-)
"You say that I'm an animal--well this at least is true, I’m a thinking breathing human being--what the hell are you?" - Skyclad
I obviously cannot say 'No offense taken', but as I said, I get your frustration and whatever offense I did take has been dealt with.
We really do rely on those monkey instincts almost all the time. We have the capacity for rational thought and behavior, but very rarely use it. Mostly we use these big brains to justify what we're doing anyway.As Samnell said
I find when I proceed from an assumption quite similar to that I predict behavior much more reliably than when I do otherwise.
That's just it. Nobody is perfectly rational. Nobody has their BS filter running 24/7. Brains really good at thinking up excuses and reasons for the things we do which are really dumb ape stuff, whether in the heat of the moment or just from all the bad code we process from thousands of years of accumulated cultural crud. One of the absolute best is "I never really thought about it; it's just how things are done."
We've all done it. The name I go by in person is androgynous. Back in grade school, other boys used to work me up into an impotent rage by making it clear they meant the female version. It was insulting and infuriating because it is my name, after all.
It took me years to actually ask why I cared if they were calling me a girl. I just understood that being a girl was somehow bad, even as I knew plenty of girls and was even friends with some.
One of the truly sad parts of this particular mechanism, from my perspective, is that it's often poorly understood. People see members of group A behave badly to those in group B, and draw the conclusion that the main point of group A is being nasty to group B. This is, as I understand it, rarely the case.
Being part of a group has benefits. That's kind of the idea of groups. Depending on the group, you get economic support, opportunities, news, contacts, and so on. But one thing ALL groups provide is social support and confirmation of group identity. And, this has to be defined. What is it that truly makes you part of that group? Why do you get the right to call yourself a member? The requirements vary, but always exist. And in some groups, the requirement is that you're a real manly man, or keep up with the latest bands in some styles of music, or keep up with fashion, etc. Point is, there are always demands from the group which make the rewards of membership possible. Some choose to pay that price.
More regrettably, the worse the perceived situation is for that group, the more firm these conditions are, and the more clearly they are upheld. It's a collective form of low self-esteem. Suddenly, it becomes important to SHOW that you're a member, which takes various pathetic expressions, like being mean to people you consider firmly not a part of your group, like those of group B. However, the point of this meanness is usually primarily for the benefit of other people from group A, to show loyalty, membership, and submission to the requirments for membership of group A. This gets worse if the person in question has or thinks he has a low status in group A.
Tl;dr: People with bad self-esteem who feel unsure about their membership status in group A are mean to people from group B to prove their A membership.
Of course, this doesn't make someone beaten by an A-member happier, but the real problem is usually not the A-member's personal views, but group A's dynamics and price for identity.
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Removed a post.
I'm not sure why this is difficult for people to understand:
"Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who ... rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior" is no more acceptable than the other similar statements we've had to moderate, such as "sure, female authors sometimes come up with good scifi; give a chimp a typewriter and eventually it will too" or "homosexuality is the same as bestiality," etc. etc. etc.
Do not make derogatory statements comparing specific groups of people to monkeys, or animals, or whatever.
If you want to talk about the relationship of humanity as a whole to its animal instincts, fine, do that (that's not what TanithT's original post did). But you don't get to bash neurotypical people by equating them to irrational animals any more than you get to do that with women or gay people or African-Americans or whatever. None of those are acceptable.
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Removed a post.
I'm not sure why this is difficult for people to understand:
"Neurotypical humans are basically monkeys who ... rarely have the capacity for rational thought or behavior" is no more acceptable than the other similar statements we've had to moderate, such as "sure, female authors sometimes come up with good scifi; give a chimp a typewriter and eventually it will too" or "homosexuality is the same as bestiality," etc. etc. etc.
Do not make derogatory statements comparing specific groups of people to monkeys, or animals, or whatever.
If you want to talk about the relationship of humanity as a whole to its animal instincts, fine, do that (that's not what TanithT's original post did). But you don't get to bash neurotypical people by equating them to irrational animals any more than you get to do that with women or gay people or African-Americans or whatever. None of those are acceptable.
You're right, of course. : )
In Tanith's defence, I think Tanith was equating 'neurotypical people' as synonymous with 'humanity as a whole', correctly or incorrectly.
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I generally find any label that isn't self-applied to itch and grate somewhat.
Yes. "Neurotypical" was coined to mean "non-autistic."
So why even include the qualifier 'neurotypical' at all?
I like the word because it does the job that normal is supposed to do, but which it never can do because it's loaded down with value judgment baggage.
People see members of group A behave badly to those in group B, and draw the conclusion that the main point of group A is being nasty to group B. This is, as I understand it, rarely the case.
Or someone from group A says something to someone from group B, who then arbitrarily attributes the nastiness to their belonging to group B.
Victimhood has social currency.
Do you really think that's the majority? Do you really think we've come so far that the biggest problem with prejudice of all kinds is false accusations of it?
I didn't suggest it was the majority, so not sure where you have got that from.
However I think that there is enough of this going around that it has certainly become a significant enough factor to have to stop and take it into consideration before accepting any accusations.
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Probably best to OT this discussion guys.
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I don't have kids and I don't ever want kids. This has been a static thing in my life since WAY before I realised I wasn't straight. My family has been saying "it's a phase" for over a decade now. :P
That said, I think there is WAY less pressure on me about having kids now that I'm in an open lesbian relationship. Years ago, when I was dating a guy, and I talked about not having kids, my mother even asked me "Well is <your boyfriend> okay with that?" - noting here that I was like 15 or something at the time, not exactly in any sense close to thinking about starting a family... but apparently it was still a consideration.
I don't have kids and I don't ever want kids. This has been a static thing in my life since WAY before I realised I wasn't straight. My family has been saying "it's a phase" for over a decade now. :P
For some reason people are more willing to accept "I don't want kids" from man than woman. One could even suspect them of thinking that having ovaries obligates women to making actual use of them...
On the other hand, among the local gamers the model 2 + 2 becomes more and more popular.
Years ago, when I was dating a guy, and I talked about not having kids, my mother even asked me "Well is <your boyfriend> okay with that?" - noting here that I was like 15 or something at the time, not exactly in any sense close to thinking about starting a family... but apparently it was still a consideration.
Proper response: "He hadn't run away. Yet."
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For some reason people are more willing to accept "I don't want kids" from man than woman. One could even suspect them of thinking that having ovaries obligates women to making actual use of them...
Indeed, and it irritates me. This is one reason of many why women have a harder time getting to higher positions in careers - because most of the upper echelons expect you to leave for a few years once you have a baby or three and so aren't going to "waste their time" promoting you.
On the other hand, among the local gamers the model 2 + 2 becomes more and more popular.
For my girlfriend and I it would be two dogs. ;) One husky for me, one corgi for her!
Proper response: "He hadn't run away. Yet."
*snort* Well, in this case it would be more like 'I hadn't run away from him yet', but that aside...
My response was outrage. "Why should I do something just because he wants me to?!"
I don't have kids, but I think I would be a good father. I've always wanted kids but I'm now in my early 40s and it's getting to the point where I think it may be too late. If I had a kid right now, I would be 60 when the child graduates from high school. I don't want my child to be worried about my age as they go through college.
I do have several nieces and a nephew but none of them know about my sexuality or crossdressing. Mostly because I don't see them often, they are young, and it's really none of their business anyway. I don't show up for family functions dressed up and sexuality isn't really a topic of conversation most of the time.
What I'm more concerned with are my friends who have adopted me as a pseudo-uncle. As I've become more comfortable with myself, they have told me that it's perfectly fine to show up at their place dressed up. I haven't yet, but when I do they plan on calling me aunt Cindy. When I'm not dressed up, I go by uncle Bob. I think that this can be very confusing for children. I'm torn about what I want to do. While I do want to be myself, I also have to acknowledge that adults are having a hard time understanding. How can I expect a young child to understand? If I was either Bob or Cindy all the time, this wouldn't be such a conundrum for me. The parents said that they would deal with it at the time if it ever comes up. I love that support. I just don't want to confuse the kids any more than I need to.
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Children are easier, not harder, than adults. They will likely stare, then ask you something like "why are you dressed like a girl?" If you tell them, they will most likely accept it and that will be that. They do not have decades of experience of social memes and judgements.