Never mind the whole medical and psychological expertise in that matter and so on, and so on. Conservatives (and Church) know better!Wow, Poland sounds just like the U.S.!
Except here Catholic Church is one true source of Conservative wisdom and science while the few Protestants present tend to be rather progressive.
A friend sent me this today, which was a nice read: Gloria Steinem on trans identities.
Not really anything new, conceptually, but it's nice to hear supportive words for trans folk from someone like that.
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Sadly, another proof that LGBT people are just like the rest of us (not to be misunderstood - it just makes clear that you can have the best, the brightest, the saddest and the worst of people among them, just like the rest of us].What happened to my friend is indeed sad to see. But he got back from this and recently bought a house with his girlfriend and they are talking about marriage. Which is possible in France only since this summer since in the eyes of the law, he is still a woman who wants to marry another woman :-)French law has no provision for legal sex change?
** spoiler omitted **
It does. I do not know how it works precisely but from what my friend has told me it is definitely NOT a simple thing.
Which does not surprise me as we have a VERY strong bureaucratic tradition in France, with delays and red tape for just about everything.
So same-sex marriage is now simpler.
From what I read in Poland change of legal gender takes about half a year (mostly waitng for experts opinions) and two to three visits in the court and later some visits to civil registry. The problem is that it greatly varies between cities and towns - due to lack of specific laws governing this leaving the process up to court decision and interpretation (Polish law is not based on precedents so ruling of court of parallel level might be seen as suggestion at best or completely ignored until court of higher level or ministry issues legal interpretation). Differences can be so high that some folks find it easier to move to another city and deal with different court.
There is no need for real-life test, however. Only the opinion of psychologist, medical doctors and potentially psychiatrist.
Total costs start at 14-15 thousands zloty (1.600 is current minimum monthly wage) or more depending if one gets exemption from court costs, which can add maybe a thousand zloty and if the public health insurance covers the costs of medical examinations. Most of the cost are operations and drugs with a (relatively) small fee for issuing new required documents - ID, driving license, official change to birth certificate.
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Here's the thing. Being trans* and expressing your gender is a core identity thing. You're not being sexually turned on by wearing the clothes of the gender you actually are, you're just presenting more appropriately for your actual gender identity.
Crossdressing is usually considered to be a sexual or fetish activity, and it's distinct from being trans*.
Well, except that some trans women do go through a crossdressing phase, and consider themselves cross dressers before eventually realizing that they're trans and going all the way. I get the distinction that you're making (though personally, I'd still include cross dressers under the trans umbrella, if they wish to be included), but from the various experiences of trans women I've read, it's not always as clear cut as that.
Look at Helen Boyd's two books, "My Husband Betty" and "She's Not the Man I Married." While writing the first book, her then husband considered himself a cross dresser, as did Boyd, and the book is to a large extent about crossdressing and about being the wife of a cross dresser. At some point, her now wife realized she was in fact a trans woman, and went through transition. "She's Not the Man I Married" was, I think, written during that questioning, in-between period, where both parts of the couple were figuring this out. Nowadays, as a trans activist (and as an activist for spouses of trans people), Boyd writes from the perspective of a woman marred to a trans woman.
Jennifer Finney Boylan's first memoir, "She's Not There," include accounts of her crossdressing throughout her life (including classic purge behavior) before finally moving forward toward a successful transition in her late 30s, early 40s.
I'm guessing those two cases are not entirely uncommon.
Along the same lines, a joke I've heard a couple of places (that was also reprinted in Boyd's second book): Q. What's the difference between a cross dresser and a transsexual? A. A few years.
Not to say this applies to everybody, of course, as some of Bob Loblaw's posts here demonstrate. Bob's made it clear he's not a transsexual. This may not even apply to the majority of cross dressers. But I think the boundaries between transsexuals and cross dressers are more permeable than you're saying.
In my own experience, I didn't cross dress for the most part, apart from some initial experimentation back when I was 11 or 12, when I first realized that something was going on. Later, as an adult, not cross dressing prior to moving toward coming out and starting transition was a deliberate choice on my part, because I knew it wasn't about the clothing, and I didn't want people to think that it was. But I sometimes think I might have had an easier time of things, found life a little less stressful, experienced a little less depression, if I had cross dressed, and effectively been a cross dresser, during the period when I was in the closet. I certainly wouldn't be at the point I am now in terms of my clothing, where I'm having to build up a new wardrobe from scratch. I'd probably have more makeup experience as well.
I think the set of experiences we label or associate with the term "trans" is a complicated thing, difficult to pin down, and sometimes categories or borders between categories under that umbrella (or associated with it) are not immediately evident. Or are more evident in hindsight, in regards to an individual person's history and own sense of identity.
In terms of the specific person Power Word Unzip is discussing, I could see what you're suggesting actually being the case (and I understand the unease both Power Word and you are talking about), but the only person who might know for certain is the cross dresser, and they might not yet know themselves.
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I just want to let you know that crossdressing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual fantasies. I crossdress all the time and I don't spend my time stuck in a fetish. I don't ask others to participate in my sex life against their will. Just because I'm in a skirt doesn't mean that I want to partake in some fantasy. Usually, I just want to wear a skirt. I find women's clothing more comfortable. I have no desire to be a woman though.
Was just about to log out when you posted. One more reply.
First, if it wasn't clear from my post, or from my previous posts on trans issues, I'm not a cross dresser. I'm a trans woman. Wasn't sure if you were using a generic "you" here, or if "you" referred to me specifically.
I'm not saying that you have to be EITHER a cross dressing fetishist OR trans*. Someone could be both, or neither, or somewhere in between, or either one on alternate Wednesdays. I am saying that the most common understanding of the term 'cross dresser' when specifically not referring to a trans* person or to drag culture is that it is a sexual or fetish activity.
I agree with all of that, but what I'm suggesting is that the most common understanding of the term cross dresser may be inadequate. And that it doesn't take into account the... temporal aspect of cross dressing, or of a cross dresser's identity, which can either be fluid in terms of their identity, or fluid in terms of the cross dresser's own understanding of their identity. (That is to say, it may shift with time.)
So if this is not actually true for you, identifying yourself as a non trans*, cisgendered cross dresser who is not dressing to express a gender or cultural identity may lead people to believe you are the kinky type of cross dresser.
Agreed. That's why I said I understood your discomfort. And again, I think this is why the common understanding of the term may be inadequate. (I also think it's unlikely to change any time soon.)
With which there is absolutely nothing wrong, but it is also true that many people will feel uncomfortable if they think that you are asking them to participate in or watch activity that is sexual to you. They may be wrong, but they may also not tell you that this was their assumption and the source of their discomfort. So, clear communication is a good thing to make sure everyone is on the same page with understanding what you are asking them to accept and consent to. Otherwise they may misunderstand and be uncomfortable with you for reasons that aren't even applicable to your situation.
I agree with that as well. Misunderstandings are not surprising, and communication is important in cases like this.
And circling back to the beginning of your post:
Gender identity is not a black and white or binary thing. It certainly isn't for me.
Agreed there as well. As always, I appreciate your perspective on these issues.
Totally generic.
Cool. Not a biggie either way, just wanted to make my perspective (and the limitations of it) clear.
I do know that if I use labels that can cause misunderstanding and awkwardness, I'll probably have an even worse time trying to communicate my gender identity and my intentions around my gender presentation to others. One of the problems with using any of the shortcut words and labels is that none of the commonly understood stereotypes are necessarily a good fit for a given person's gender identity. They can come with baggage that doesn't apply to you, or fail to convey stuff that is core to your identity and important to you.
Agreed. I think this is one of the challenges facing trans* people (including cross dressers) as public awareness and acceptance increases.
I am not the gatekeeper of anyone else's gender identity, but to the best of my understanding, many fetishist crossdressers do not choose to identify themselves as trans*, but rather consider themselves to be heterosexual and cisgendered.
I figure if someone chooses to say they are trans* or male or female then they are as far as I'm concerned. It is absolutely not my business to say how other people get to label or present. But 'cross dresser' can be an entirely separate and very different identity from trans*, or it can be a preferred sexual activity *instead* of a gender identity.
Agreed. But on the other hand, not all cross dressers are fetishists. And I guess I don't assume a cross dresser is, by default, a fetishistic cross dresser.
Further, there can be overlap between cross dressers and people more clearly within the trans* spectrum. The overlap isn't necessarily there, or there for all cross dressers, but it can be there.
That connection is sometimes taken up by some cross dressers themselves, like at the Southern Comfort conference:
Southern Comfort prides itself on being an all-inclusive conference. Whatever your connection to the transgender community – whether you transsexual, a cross dresser or in between; spouse, partner or family member; straight, gay, bi or omni-sexual; post-op, pre-op or non-op; young or old; married or single; FtM or MtF; or of any variance — if transgender is an issue in your life, you are welcome at Southern Comfort Conference.
That's an annual conference that's been running since 1991. There are, of course other organizations that draw different dividing lines. And there are non-fetishistic cross dressers who prefer not to be identified as transgender or trans* (and fetishistic cross dressers as well). It's up to the individuals to decide how to identify themselves.
No value judgments are intended or implied, just noting that it may be a very different experience and gender identity from trans*, even though there's surface similarities.
It might be, but it might not be. Going by the various trans narratives I've read over the years, at the very least it seems like there might be a connection, overlap, spectrum, what have you between transsexuals and non-fetishistic cross dressers. That's the impression I have at this point, and that's the point I was trying to make in the earlier post, with reference to Jennifer Finney Boylan, and to Helen Boyd's wife, Betty Crow.
Maybe it would be useful to distinguish between crossdressing as an activity and cross dresser as an identity? As in, some trans women crossdress during their earlier explorations of gender identity, prior to identifying as transgender and/or prior to transition. But at the same time, I'd guess there are a number of trans women out there who identified as cross dressers, would have referred to themselves as cross dressers, before they reached a fuller understanding of themselves. This goes back to what I said in my original post: The only one who knows for certain is the person themself, and even they might not know, or might not yet be certain.
Basically I wouldn't automatically include a cross dresser on the trans* spectrum unless they chose to identify that way. Which of course they have every right to do, but I wouldn't label someone that way against their will if they chose to identify as a cisgendered person who enjoyed a fetish activity. Which many cross dressers certainly do.
I wouldn't either. However, given how roughly the larger culture can treat cross dressers, I'd rather offer inclusivity under the umbrella as a default, let them know they're welcome and accepted within the great hodge podge that is trans* (at least as far as I'm concerned) if they choose it. (I would not expect everyone, including you, to do the same.) Basically, I don't want to be a gatekeeper either, and I'd rather make sure people know the gate is open for them if they choose it.
In my previous post, I should have said "including those cross dressers who identify as trans." I was trying to be brief (for a change), which seems to have made my position less clear. A couple posts earlier, I said:
... personally, I'd still include cross dressers under the trans umbrella, if they wish to be included...
I assumed I'd been clear enough then, and that that would be carried forward into my later posts by anyone who'd read the earlier post. Apologies if that was not the case.
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I had this argument with a couple of folks who should know better (ie degree'd and/or licensed). Their explanation of this is a solely fetish grated on me. I questioned their assumptive diagnosis by asking how many 4 or 5 yo boys displayed fetishism to achieve sexual gratification. The silence was deafening.
As for labels, depends on who is asking and daily variance. I usually go with CD under the Trans umbrella. Most days I deal with it, some days I am thankful and glorify in my masculine stature, on rarer days, SRS would be welcomed.
I wish gender came in a box like hair color.
We're certainly not in any disagreement on the fact that anyone who feels they are trans* should be included as such. What I'm saying is that there is such a thing as cisgendered cross dressers, fetishistic and otherwise, who don't choose to identify as trans*. Sorry if I missed that part of your post, where it looks like you were pretty much saying the same thing.
Yeah, we're definitely in agreement. Sorry if I seemed argumentative.
Gender is weird. The idea that it is an uncomplicated binary is even weirder, at least to me.
Agreed.
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Ah the ever present If/then statement. Only two choices available: Male or female. All others are just pretending. I would politely direct you to read some of the thread, then rephrase and repost the question.
As KSF stated above
"Along the same lines, a joke I've heard a couple of places (that was also reprinted in Boyd's second book): Q. What's the difference between a cross dresser and a transsexual? A. A few years.
Not to say this applies to everybody, of course, as some of Bob Loblaw's posts here demonstrate. Bob's made it clear he's not a transsexual. This may not even apply to the majority of cross dressers. But I think the boundaries between transsexuals and cross dressers are more permeable than you're saying.
How can you describe a rainbow to a blind person? When they insinuate you are lying, how do you convey the concept of the color on a non-tactile observation? Sometimes you just have to accept different truths not based on your own personal experience.
It is more than about the clothes, see fetish dressing. Crossdressers(male/female) are joining the opposite gender club, if only temporary with varying degrees of success. It is a constant battle of passing vs presentable. Transexuals are aiming for permanent membership, no matter where on the path they currently reside.
This is only an opinion based on my experiences and lots of reading to figure myself out. I am sure if you were really fascinated, you'd be able to get all the answers you needed in peer reviewed publications and/or trolling the FAQ links of various websites (Tri-Ess is a good start).
Cross dressers fascinate me.
What would a male cross dresser in the US who wore a dress rather than pants wear if they moved to a culture where women wear pants and men wear dresses?
If the answer is "pants", then how can cross dressing not be highly a matter of choice?
Why assume (as you seem to be doing here) that the answer would be "pants"?
Cross dressers fascinate me.
What would a male cross dresser in the US who wore a dress rather than pants wear if they moved to a culture where women wear pants and men wear dresses?
If the answer is "pants", then how can cross dressing not be highly a matter of choice?
I be careful how you phrase you "fascination," it comes of as pathologizing of people who don't conform to normative standards.
You could just ask one. But you'd have to keep in mind that you can't generalize about all "cross dressers." I imagine there is a diversity of motivations, so you'd probably get different answers based on different motivations.
And I would imagine that whatever "cross dressing" entails, it probably goes beyond the pants/dress dichotomy.
If it matters, I own women's pants. In all honesty, what you've described is essentially a woman in America. I know a lot of women who prefer men's pants and shirts because they find them more comfortable. Same with the shoes. They aren't considered crossdressers by most people though.
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I took 'em fair and square! I'm keeping them!
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This months pathfinder comic is amazing.
I had this argument with a couple of folks who should know better (ie degree'd and/or licensed). Their explanation of this is a solely fetish grated on me. I questioned their assumptive diagnosis by asking how many 4 or 5 yo boys displayed fetishism to achieve sexual gratification. The silence was deafening.Anyone who tells you that ANY type of gender identity expression is always X, regardless of the value of X, does not know jack and squat about the actual population of trans*, gender variant, gender fluid, drag and CD/TV community. There is a very wide spectrum out there, and it doesn't just encompass two opposite poles and the ground between them.
The average joe not knowing this is maybe excusable, but if someone is claiming credentials in a related field, I would strongly recommend staying responsibly current with the literature and fieldwork. If they are practicing any form of medicine or therapy with patients or clients, it is utterly unethical not to do so.
I wish gender came in a box like hair color.I'd certainly fill my shelf with bottles of that, in many different shades.
Something seems weird about that argument. I would have loved to be there for it.
If it matters, I own women's pants. In all honesty, what you've described is essentially a woman in America. I know a lot of women who prefer men's pants and shirts because they find them more comfortable. Same with the shoes. They aren't considered crossdressers by most people though.
On a similar note - I don't consider myself a crossdresser because I happen to wear a kilt (because "Viking highlander" is a cool look) from time to time.
I also suspect it might partly be set by the cultural norms of the country he grew up in. Just like a non-cross-dressing man moving to a country where men wore dresses wouldn't instantly switch to being comfortable wearing them.Cross dressers fascinate me.
What would a male cross dresser in the US who wore a dress rather than pants wear if they moved to a culture where women wear pants and men wear dresses?
If the answer is "pants", then how can cross dressing not be highly a matter of choice?
I be careful how you phrase you "fascination," it comes of as pathologizing of people who don't conform to normative standards.
You could just ask one. But you'd have to keep in mind that you can't generalize about all "cross dressers." I imagine there is a diversity of motivations, so you'd probably get different answers based on different motivations.
And I would imagine that whatever "cross dressing" entails, it probably goes beyond the pants/dress dichotomy.
also, this.
On a similar note - I don't consider myself a crossdresser because I happen to wear a kilt (because "Viking highlander" is a cool look) from time to time.
Pre-Paizo I edited a book on marketing and gender, and one of the case studies was the marketing of kilts in Scandinavia as hypermasculine clothing, lots of images of buff construction dudes with tool belts and work boots. Fascinating how we learn to interpret clothing so selectively!
(There was also a frustrating story about a car meant to be designed by women for women (possibly by Volvo), and some of the innovations that got canned in the end as too girly, even though they were actually better for the majority of people. Like gas and brake pedals that better accommodated a wider range of shoes, including heels but also including heavy-soled work boots and hiking boots. WANT.)
I took 'em fair and square! I'm keeping them!Go, Bob!
File off the serial numbers and no one will ever know!
These have sparkle! Everyone would know! But I have actually been considering buying women's pants and shirts for work. Just regular old pants and shirts.
On a side note, I've gone to work the last three days with just my pinkies painted pink. Nothing fancy, just the pinkies. I'm doing it for two reasons:
1) I work in healthcare and it is a simple way for me to show my support for breast cancer awareness.
2) I'm experimenting to see how coworkers and the guests deal with seeing me with my nails painted. I also want to see how I deal with knowing that others will see it. So far, in three days, not a single person has said anything. I don't think that anyone noticed at all. That's fine. I'm leaving it on all month.
If anyone wants to help me start a trend, I want to start a "Men, Paint Your Pinkies Pink for Breast Cancer Awareness" campaign. I have no idea how to use it to generate money for research though.
I am saying that the most common understanding of the term 'cross dresser' when specifically not referring to a trans* person or to drag culture is that it is a sexual or fetish activity.
Are you sure that's the most common understanding? What are you basing that on?
To me there's a clear distinction between cross-dressers and what I would "label" as transvestites. The latter being the fetishism part. Even that is technically wrong as the more precise term would be Transvestic fetishism.Cross-dressing as a term also seems to have been coined to get away from the fetishism "stigma" (as you have expressed yourself with the "not at my table!" comments).
Sure, cross-dressers can be sexualized by others, but that doesn't necessitate a fetish origin on the cross-dressers part.
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I gotta say, I also never associated cross-dressing with a fetish (unless specifically talking about fetishes)...
Then again, I mingle with the anime fandom where "crossplaying" is a thing. That is, cross-dressing while you cosplay. Nobody really blinks an eye at that.
I also know two guys (one straight - or bi, not sure - and one gay) who cross-dress because they like it, not because they get off to it. My partner also enjoys wearing men's clothes as well, although the fact that I enjoy seeing her like that probably plays a big part in that...
Not sure about the cross-dressing vs. Fetishes vs trans perspective. There are dozens of reasons why someone's closet looks the way it does, from sexual expression to sexual desire to comfort to acting chops to poverty to politics. All reasons must be respected.
This months pathfinder comic is amazing.Could you elaborate, s'il vous plait?
questions are answered! Fantasies are realized! Dragons are fought! Saves are made!
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This months pathfinder comic is amazing.Could you elaborate, s'il vous plait?questions are answered! Fantasies are realized! Dragons are fought! Saves are made!
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah yeah that's nice but did they get any loot?
** spoiler omitted **
Well, I suspect they might get some booty...
Vanilla straight person at your service....
Cross Dressing - very complex one of my favourite shows when I was young was Torque (like Top Gear but 80's style) The host Peter Wherrit came out as a cross dresser in an interview, It didn't come across as kink to me.
Eddie Izzard also reinforced that it wasn't a fetish for me.
At Uni my residential college had Cross dress party, I did not feel or look attractive in a frock. A floral barrel with legs was the nicest thing anybody could say. There were some guys that looked too good. But the whole thing was about gender flipping more than a fetish for the majority of people.
Yet I rock a kilt hardcore you should see my wedding photos.
I'll repeat myself, TanithT: I disagree with your suggestion that cross-dressing is seen as a fetish first and foremost by most people.
In fact I'd argue that people are more likely to see you as a homosexual than they are to see you as fetishistic.
From what I've heard, the word "freak" is what people first say when they see a cross-dresser.
Being familiar with at least two transgender friends*, I find myself rather disgusted when I hear people talk like that.
The people who discriminate others over such things are the real freaks, but of course it's hard to tell them that to their faces.
* = I know transgender people and cross-dressers are not the same thing, but I see people who don't care to tell the difference and it angers me.
I'll repeat myself, TanithT: I disagree with your suggestion that cross-dressing is seen as a fetish first and foremost by most people.
In fact I'd argue that people are more likely to see you as a homosexual than they are to see you as fetishistic.
I have to agree.
I, what. Yes.
EDIT: Demanding you burgeoning artists out there to draw some Kyra x Merisiel half-elf babies.
love to see the conception myself....