The LGBT Gamer Community Thread.


Gamer Life General Discussion

2,801 to 2,850 of 17,696 << first < prev | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | next > last >>
Liberty's Edge

the evo-psychhh it buuuurnnsssss

Evo-psych doesn't work because it over-generalises. What is true for some women is not true for all women. What is true for some men isn't true for all men. Evo-psych tries to pretend there's a single reason when there is not.

It also has the unfortunate problem of being unduly influenced by your expectations, much more than "traditional" science. There's pretty much no objective way to prove anything in evo-psych, and so you will see conclusions that affirm your own biases. It is absolutely no surprise to me in this regard that evo-psych tends to affirm a sexist, heterocentric world view.

Malachi, what would you do if I told you that I have absolutely no desire to "breed"? Would you believe me? What if I told you that I have little-to-no maternal instincts? That my menstrual cycle is incredibly long (we're talking once or twice every year - sorry, other ladies!)? That I've never had a desire to have sex with anyone aside from my partner (a woman) or "show off" at any time during my menstrual cycle? As a woman in my early 20s I suppose I should be in my "prime time" for fertility, supposedly.

And if you claim "Oh, that's all in your mind - it's suppressing your biology", well, one there's absolutely no way to prove that, two there's a tonne of science that talks about biology not being the be-all and end-all of everything and it is not simply a "static" thing decided when your father's sperm entered your mother's egg. Nature impacts nurture... and nurture impacts nature.

As an aside, what you're saying is basically predicate on the fact that sex == breeding == passing on offspring. It doesn't take into consideration the fact that we as a species have sex for social reasons and not breeding reasons, like bonobos for example, or other species.

Contributor

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Since the question was raised regarding "masculine" traits in the lesbian community... it's complicated. Not the least of which is what you define as being masculine or feminine, what is or isn't a construct of culture, versus things that can be measured, etc.

It's also a minefield of a topic, but a few things worth touching upon I think. I'll stick to the science and try not to offend anyone:

The processes that lead to non-heterosexual orientation in women -as best we understand it currently, important point there- are complex but ultimately biological in nature. A number of them that influence brain masculinization (by comparison to mean values measuring regions of male and female brains) likewise appear to occur during periods of fetal development in which other portions of the body are likewise affected.

Linking other complex behaviors to this and labeling them "masculine" or "feminine" is more dubious, but there has been work in the area regarding the effects of congenital adrenal hyperplasia as it affects behavior, development, and sexuality in females (the condition causes excess androgen exposure, and those with the condition are statistically significantly more likely to be lesbian or bisexual). Similarly if you look at PCOS, it affects lesbian and bisexual women to a statistically significantly greater degree than heterosexual women (though if it's ultimately a cause of brain masculinization or a downstream result of that itself, that's open for more research).

As it's currently understood in research, changes in the brain may also (but by no means always) affect behavior in other ways, and may also affect other physical traits as well. But outside of specific regions of the brain, it's probably crass to overly generalize about "masculine" or "feminine" traits.

There's also the overlap of the lesbian population with female-attracted transmen, and the jury is still out on what (if any) specific overlap there is in terms of what happens during fetal development in their cases (same underlying causes but occurring at earlier periods of brain development? Or different causes? Or a multitude of overlapping ones?). Complex, really really difficult to pin down specifics, but fascinating from the perspective of developmental biology.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Among other things, people advance a hypothesis which matches observations of reality, then tries to prove it wrong! If it can't be, it becomes theory. Gravity is a theory.

The various explanatory models of gravity are theories. The action of gravity itself is a simply demonstrable physical phenomenon (in terms of how it manifests within our Earth-bound frame of reference), for which mechanical models can and have been put forth and tested and found to be pretty much accurate. The why part remains open to question, but the what part, and the does it exist part, neither of these seem to be open questions at this point.


On topic-ish - one of the most interesting museums that I ever went to was in the town of Malacca in Malaysia... and it was called the Museum of Beauty. The catch here being that the 'beauty' focus was narrowed more on how various cultures around the world engaged in body modification to make themselves more 'beautiful' within their cultural frame of reference. It was really provacative seeing the lengths which (the female gender generally) either went to or were forced to go to to conform with the societal and cultural 'ideal'.

From foot-binding to cranial deformation to neck lengthening... the list goes on.


The black raven wrote:

@ BOB and the other posters who recently expressed anguish at finding a fulfilling relationship. I can honestly tell you that it is just as difficult for everyone really. I do not wish at all to dismiss the difficulties you meet. Just that when you go deep into a relationship, you meet potential wreckage on most every subject. I can attest how difficult, worrying and sad it can be. And time-consuming. But I am also very happy to attest that with time and understanding you can indeed find the fulfilling relationship you are looking for. The twin keys to this are : BE YOURSELF and GET RID OF USELESS PEOPLE, those whose presence does not help or comfort you. This will make place in your life for people who are really worthy of it.

In all examples I have seen in my life, IT WORKS.

Be well.

It's not just as difficult. It's actually harder because, in general, men are attracted to women and women are attracted to men. When a man approaches a man, he puts himself in a more difficult situation. While you may not be bothered by a man approaching you, there are men who will react with violence. It is something that I must keep in mind. People aren't usually labelled "gay," bi," straight," etc but you can play the odds as a straight man and usually chat up a straight woman.

It's harder to find someone who is accepting of who I am and my needs. That's not to say that they aren't out there. I just have to be aware that not everyone accepts it and some are downright offended. I can't just approach someone with the same level of confidence. It doesn't matter if they are a woman or a man (although women tend to be more accepting in my experience).

I'm not really sure who I am either, which is part of the problem. I'm working it out. It's hard to figure out on my own. I have friends who accept me but I don't have a clue where to go to look for someone who shares my interests. It's not as easy as you think.


Jessica Price wrote:

And to stop hijacking the thread and get back to makeup:

Bob, if you're looking for fun ideas for more showy eye makeup, I love this Pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/eyemakeupideas/eye-makeup-ideas/

Some of them actually link to tutorials. :-)

Thanks! I bookmarked it for when I have some time to go through it. Most of them look really difficult though.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Freehold DM wrote:
never seen this a day in my life. What is this?

Spoilered for tangent:
Cybersix was a short-lived(13 episodes) animated adaptation of a Argentinian comic about an android woman fighting against the creations of her mad scientist(and Nazi) creator by night and disguising herself as a male teacher dealing with awkward romantic interests by day. It's a show I'm still surprised came out as long ago as it did, because looking back it neither looks nor sounds like a western cartoon you'd find in the 90's.

The tone between the cartoon and comic differs quite a bit(for one, the cartoon isn't nearly as violent or fanservicey), so fans of one might not enjoy the other so much, but everyone's milage is going to vary. As far as I know though, the comics are not available in English.

Also, nice hat.

!

Okay, between being a fan of that character and RP-ing Imrijka here on the boards....Paizo crew, I think someone wants a wide-brim for Christmas. ;)

News for fans of that show:
The english version is available now on Hulu and there are plans for a Region 1 DVD release next year!

Voice Actress trivia:
HAHAHAHAA just found out Six is voiced by Spike from MLP. :D

Silver Crusade

Jessica Price wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Jessica, you know as well as I do that science moves forward using the scientific method. Among other things, people advance a hypothesis which matches observations of reality, then tries to prove it wrong! If it can't be, it becomes theory. Gravity is a theory.
Not sure what this has to do with assertions that can't be proven or disproven.

It means that the model I outlined is the best we have. I don't need to prove it, it just has to be better than any alternate explanation we have.

If anyone disproves it, science is working as it should. I'll be as enlightened as everyone else.

If a better explanation comes along, I'm listening.

Liberty's Edge

You may not have to "prove" it but you do have to provide substantial empirical evidence that your hypothesis is correct. And there is pretty much zero way to provide that evidence with evo-psych. Hence why it being one of the dumbest concepts in science.

Liberty's Edge

Here's a fun blog entry about why evo psych fails.


RationalWiki has a good write-up on Evo Psych as well

This quote from the write-up seems to apply specifically to Malachi's point:
In regards to the presence or absence of selective pressure, critics allege that much of evolutionary psychology's claims about selective regimes are pseudoscientific in nature, as proposals about particular selective pathways often cannot be theoretically disproven. In a broader sense, they allege that EP has failed to produce any new insights into human evolution that move beyond a purely speculative character, remaining at the level of generating hypotheses without having generated evidence to build upon these initial hypotheses. As such, it hasn't matured into a field of study analogous to other areas of biology, remaining merely a novel proposal.

Silver Crusade

Alice Margatroid wrote:
Evo-psych doesn't work because it over-generalises. What is true for some women is not true for all women. What is true for some men isn't true for all men. Evo-psych tries to pretend there's a single reason when there is not.

Of course it's a generalisation. It can't be anything else. It can't possibly be specific to every individual on the planet; that's an unreasonable expectation. Evolution itself doesn't claim that every single individual less adapted to survive will not live to breed, nor that every single individual more fit to breed will do so. It doesn't need to, it just needs to be mathematically significant to have a real effect.

Quote:
It also has the unfortunate problem of being unduly influenced by your expectations, much more than "traditional" science. There's pretty much no objective way to prove anything in evo-psych, and so you will see conclusions that affirm your own biases. It is absolutely no surprise to me in this regard that evo-psych tends to affirm a sexist, heterocentric world view.

Quite. Although all science can't help but be affected by expectation, this discipline suffers more than most. : )

Quote:
Malachi, what would you do if I told you that I have absolutely no desire to "breed"? Would you believe me? What if I told you that I have little-to-no maternal instincts? That my menstrual cycle is incredibly long (we're talking once or twice every year - sorry, other ladies!)? That I've never had a desire to have sex with anyone aside from my partner (a woman) or "show off" at any time during my menstrual cycle? As a woman in my early 20s I suppose I should be in my "prime time" for fertility, supposedly.

Interesting. But I'm sure you'll agree that these qualities are on the edges of the bell curve. Nothing wrong with that, but the science will go for the middle peak of that bell curve every time. Your uniqueness doesn't invalidate that bell curve.

We all know that LGBT people exist on the edges of the bell curve of human sexuality. That in no way makes them less valid human beings, but it won't come as a surprise that most science regarding human sexuality concentrates on the majority.

Nowadays research has been done to study the science behind LGBT people, and about time! The world is a better place for that drive to understand.

And everyone is surprised when they discover how closely their dress patterns correlate to their monthly cycle. Or, in your case, yearly cycle. : )

Quote:
And if you claim "Oh, that's all in your mind - it's suppressing your biology", well, one there's absolutely no way to prove that, two there's a tonne of science that talks about biology not being the be-all and end-all of everything and it is not simply a "static" thing decided when your father's sperm entered your mother's egg. Nature impacts nurture... and nurture impacts nature.

On this we agree. Just because my post was about the science behind the increasing masculine/feminine divide doesn't mean that I think that this is the only factor that counts, or even the most important factor. Just because I'm talking about hockey it doesn't mean that I'm denying baseball.

Quote:
As an aside, what you're saying is basically predicate on the fact that sex == breeding == passing on offspring. It doesn't take into consideration the fact that we as a species have sex for social reasons and not breeding reasons, like bonobos for example, or other species.

Again, just because I was speaking about breeding, this doesn't mean that I was denying all the other factors; it's just that those other things weren't the subject of my post.

We don't actually disagree on this stuff.

This reminds me of something I've noticed: whenever someone sees me with a blonde girl they believe that blonde girls are my 'thing'. When I'm seen with a Chinese girl they say that Chinese girls are my 'thing'. Neither is true; I like who I like. This is selection bias.

There I was, posting about sexual selection, and it's assumed that I therefore don't give any credit to all the other influences.

Silver Crusade

Todd Stewart wrote:

Since the question was raised regarding "masculine" traits in the lesbian community... it's complicated. Not the least of which is what you define as being masculine or feminine, what is or isn't a construct of culture, versus things that can be measured, etc.

It's also a minefield of a topic, but a few things worth touching upon I think. I'll stick to the science and try not to offend anyone:

The processes that lead to non-heterosexual orientation in women -as best we understand it currently, important point there- are complex but ultimately biological in nature. A number of them that influence brain masculinization (by comparison to mean values measuring regions of male and female brains) likewise appear to occur during periods of fetal development in which other portions of the body are likewise affected.

Linking other complex behaviors to this and labeling them "masculine" or "feminine" is more dubious, but there has been work in the area regarding the effects of congenital adrenal hyperplasia as it affects behavior, development, and sexuality in females (the condition causes excess androgen exposure, and those with the condition are statistically significantly more likely to be lesbian or bisexual). Similarly if you look at PCOS, it affects lesbian and bisexual women to a statistically significantly greater degree than heterosexual women (though if it's ultimately a cause of brain masculinization or a downstream result of that itself, that's open for more research).

As it's currently understood in research, changes in the brain may also (but by no means always) affect behavior in other ways, and may also affect other physical traits as well. But outside of specific regions of the brain, it's probably crass to overly generalize about "masculine" or "feminine" traits.

There's also the overlap of the lesbian population with female-attracted transmen, and the jury is still out on what (if any) specific overlap there is in terms of what happens during fetal development in their cases (same...

Thanks Todd, this is helpful.

This makes sense as a reason that people who want people who are attracted to girls to be attracted to them can end up looking like boys.

I'll keep learning.

Given the chance...


My wife maintains that homo(or any thing other than hetero)sexuality is a biological urge to avoid overpopulation. I think asking similar lines.


Freehold DM wrote:
My wife maintains that homo(or any thing other than hetero)sexuality is a biological urge to avoid overpopulation. I think asking similar lines.

So how would you explain bisexuality or homosexuality in populations where there isn't any danger or overpopulation? Bisexuality doesn't stop me from being with women. I've been with more women than men. I'm divorced (the bisexuality wasn't an issue in that).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Evo psych or no, it is pretty clear that there are massive adaptations for a two-gender system throughout most of the animal kingdom. Claiming that humans would be exempt from this, I feel would be saying a bit too much. More likely, we have much the same type of instincts. Then, of course, as you say, we can try to fight these instincts, unlike all other known species.

Biological preferences tend to be different from cultural preferences, in that the biological systems are far more difficult to avoid or distance yourself from. A person's sexuality (that they HAVE one, and what form it takes) is such an issue, I think that's pretty clear. So far, I have never heard of any reliable study that says that changing someone's sexuality works. It is possible to shut it down by interfering chemically with the system's mechanisms, though. Without doing so, you can't shut it down either. And it's not for lack of trying, really. People have tried everything they can think of for a very long time.

Your sexuality is a part of what you ARE, not a choice. Not a cultural phenomenon.

So... if we all have a sexuality, if it is hard-wired into us, and almost all of us have a very clear sex/gender-preference, what gives? Well, I would say this: There has to be a very precise machinery in place for making you want EITHER men or women, and similarly precise one for making sure it's the opposite sex to yours. The effects are as central as most people consider their sexuality to be to them. However, nothing complicated is ever 100%. As a consequence, there will be both bisexuals and homosexuals.

So... when someone airs bad stuff about homosexuals, it's quite likely that the existence of homosexuals are a prerequisite for/by-product of their own firm preference. If, of course, they have such a preference, and have not just tried to adapt socially because it was easier.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:
"Women in their 20s prefer older men because [reason]" is a claim that can't really be tested.) The "why" explanations aren't generally testable. All they will ever be is theory/opinion, not fact.

I enjoy reading the thread, but haven't posted much because I didn't feel I had anything to contribute. In this instance, as a scientist, I'd like to insert something, though.

I agree when you say "aren't generally testable," but am forced to disagree with "can't really be tested" and "all they will ever be is opinion." Just because something is harder to test, and hasn't been to date, doesn't mean that it can't be tested. There are experiments in particle physics that required a multi-billion-dollar accelerator to conduct; until that was built, they were untested, but no one said that they could not ever be tested.

In this case, you'd need to find various different factors generally common to older men and not younger ones (money? established careers? gray hair? age lines? subtle pheromones? other?), and find lots of older and younger men that had/didn't have them, and find a lot of women in their 20s to give feedback. With enough data, eventually patterns would emerge, which could be further firmed up with more data. It would be a massive undertaking, and probably a waste of time, but that doesn't impy that it couldn't be done -- with 7 billion people on Earth, there are a lot of potential test candidates.

Silver Crusade

Sissyl wrote:

Evo psych or no, it is pretty clear that there are massive adaptations for a two-gender system throughout most of the animal kingdom. Claiming that humans would be exempt from this, I feel would be saying a bit too much. More likely, we have much the same type of instincts. Then, of course, as you say, we can try to fight these instincts, unlike all other known species.

Biological preferences tend to be different from cultural preferences, in that the biological systems are far more difficult to avoid or distance yourself from. A person's sexuality (that they HAVE one, and what form it takes) is such an issue, I think that's pretty clear. So far, I have never heard of any reliable study that says that changing someone's sexuality works. It is possible to shut it down by interfering chemically with the system's mechanisms, though. Without doing so, you can't shut it down either. And it's not for lack of trying, really. People have tried everything they can think of for a very long time.

Your sexuality is a part of what you ARE, not a choice. Not a cultural phenomenon.

So... if we all have a sexuality, if it is hard-wired into us, and almost all of us have a very clear sex/gender-preference, what gives? Well, I would say this: There has to be a very precise machinery in place for making you want EITHER men or women, and similarly precise one for making sure it's the opposite sex to yours. The effects are as central as most people consider their sexuality to be to them. However, nothing complicated is ever 100%. As a consequence, there will be both bisexuals and homosexuals.

So... when someone airs bad stuff about homosexuals, it's quite likely that the existence of homosexuals are a prerequisite for/by-product of their own firm preference. If, of course, they have such a preference, and have not just tried to adapt socially because it was easier.

That's what I've been trying to say...but not as eloquently. : )

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post. Let's try to steer this discussion back on topic, please, rather than turn it into a debate on psychology. If you'd like to discuss other topics, please do so in another thread.

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
My wife maintains that homo(or any thing other than hetero)sexuality is a biological urge to avoid overpopulation. I think asking similar lines.
So how would you explain bisexuality or homosexuality in populations where there isn't any danger or overpopulation? Bisexuality doesn't stop me from being with women. I've been with more women than men. I'm divorced (the bisexuality wasn't an issue in that).

This theory is a little more complicated than just gay people being an immune response to overcrowding. The theory comes from the idea that non- heteronormative tendencies are caused by maternal hormone abnormalities in fetal development, often brought about by stress. When a population is overcrowded, there's more stress for everyone (including mothers), so the instances of gay children raises. A happy side-effect is that more gay individuals tends to mean fewer children competing for resources in the long run, and that the children who are around have additional adults to care for them.

But again, just one theory. We still don't actually know what causes sexual preference.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jessica Price wrote:

And to stop hijacking the thread and get back to makeup:

Bob, if you're looking for fun ideas for more showy eye makeup, I love this Pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/eyemakeupideas/eye-makeup-ideas/

Some of them actually link to tutorials. :-)

For makeup tips I love love love pixiwoo. She does a ton of makeup tutorials and is very good at what she does. Pixiwoo Youtube Channel. Just putting that out there. Also, I'd like to shill for espionage cosmetics because they make awesome powdered eyeshadow that can be used in a couple of ways and they cater to geeks specifically. Espionage Cosmetics

The Exchange

Lissa Guillet wrote:
Also, I'd like to shill for espionage cosmetics because they make awesome powdered eyeshadow that can be used in a couple of ways and they cater to geeks specifically. Espionage Cosmetics

Argh! I missed an awesome kickstarter. Now pardon me whilst I lust over the selections.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
My wife maintains that homo(or any thing other than hetero)sexuality is a biological urge to avoid overpopulation. I think asking similar lines.
So how would you explain bisexuality or homosexuality in populations where there isn't any danger or overpopulation? Bisexuality doesn't stop me from being with women. I've been with more women than men. I'm divorced (the bisexuality wasn't an issue in that).

its still a valve. In an unimaginitive sense, every man You have sex with is a woman not getting pregnant. Overpopulation is one of those weird things that needs multiple controls, especially in situations where natural predators are rare and population density becomes a more important factor than resource allocation. I would also add the pleasure seeking impulse becoming more developed also plays a role.


A friend just sent me this news. The CW is working on a drama (I think a series) about a trans teen, to be called "Ze" (from one of the gender neutral pronouns).

Liberty's Edge Digital Products Assistant

2 people marked this as a favorite.
KSF wrote:
A friend just sent me this news. The CW is working on a drama (I think a series) about a trans teen, to be called "Ze" (from one of the gender neutral pronouns).

Using a gender-neutral pronoun for a character with a stated gender preference they identify with seems a bit tone-deaf.


KSF wrote:
A friend just sent me this news. The CW is working on a drama (I think a series) about a trans teen, to be called "Ze" (from one of the gender neutral pronouns).

I remember that from elementary school. It didn't catch on with the class.


Crystal Frasier wrote:
KSF wrote:
A friend just sent me this news. The CW is working on a drama (I think a series) about a trans teen, to be called "Ze" (from one of the gender neutral pronouns).
Using a gender-neutral pronoun for a character with a stated gender preference they identify with seems a bit tone-deaf.

Maybe the character's in the process of figuring out their gender identity? Maybe they identify more as genderqueer?

I don't know, I've never met a trans person face to face who used any of the various gender neutral pronouns, but I've read things written by trans people who use them. One example was that article I linked to a few days ago. The writer is trans (and a scholar on trans issues, I think) and they made it clear they preferred the pronoun "they." This doesn't seem that different (general suspicion of mainstream media depictions of trans people aside).

Anyways, I'm curious as to how this will turn out. How will the casting go. Will they go with a trans teen actor (like in Gun Hill Road)? Will trans people be involved behind the scenes? Will there be other trans characters? etc.

I'll remain cautiously optimistic until I actually see it. The fact that one of the networks is spending money to develop this, and is apparently going for a sympathetic tone, seems significant to me. As does the fact that they don't seem to be adding in an extra hook or twist for the character (like Hit & Miss, where the lead is a hitwoman).

As always, though, everyone's mileage will vary.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

And to stop hijacking the thread and get back to makeup:

Bob, if you're looking for fun ideas for more showy eye makeup, I love this Pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/eyemakeupideas/eye-makeup-ideas/

Some of them actually link to tutorials. :-)

For makeup tips I love love love pixiwoo. She does a ton of makeup tutorials and is very good at what she does. Pixiwoo Youtube Channel. Just putting that out there. Also, I'd like to shill for espionage cosmetics because they make awesome powdered eyeshadow that can be used in a couple of ways and they cater to geeks specifically. Espionage Cosmetics

I'll check it out when I get home. I'm waiting for some friends so we can go to Ladies Nite. Hopefully my anxiety calms down soon.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You'll be fine! Good luck and have fun!


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm waiting for some friends so we can go to Ladies Nite. Hopefully my anxiety calms down soon.

Go for it. Have yourself a good time.

Webstore Gninja Minion

KSF wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I'll check it out when I get home. I'm waiting for some friends so we can go to Ladies Nite. Hopefully my anxiety calms down soon.
Go for it. Have yourself a good time.

Have a great time Bob! I keep meaning to make it out there some time, but Fridays are really busy days for me at work. :\

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

RE: the gender neutral pronouns... I actually break from my usual laissez-faire attitude when it comes to ze/xie/whatever. God, I hate them.

My problems with them:

1. English pronouns are a closed class of the language. Adding new pronouns is incredibly hard. We're more likely to remove or adapt pre-existing pronouns (as we have with things with 'you' for example), let alone just suddenly add in something like that.

2. There's a perfectly good gender neutral pronoun already in our language in the form of 'they'. English purists complain, but it's been used in that form since at least Shakespeare, so they'll get over it. ;)

3. I have absolutely no idea how to pronounce a lot of these words. They are not 'English' in form. Plenty of them have really unintuitive conjugations as well (as in, equivalent to himself/herself/etc). I've seen "Xyrself" for example and I'm just like... what.

One of my random pet peeves for sure.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
KSF wrote:
I don't know, I've never met a trans person face to face who used any of the various gender neutral pronouns, but I've read things written by trans people who use them. One example was that article I linked to a few days ago. The writer is trans (and a scholar on trans issues, I think) and they made it clear they preferred the pronoun "they." This doesn't seem that different (general suspicion of mainstream media depictions of trans people aside).

One of the players in the Marvel game I'm in has a hero whose gender she was keeping to herself ('her' being the player). It turned out that the hero is intersex.

I asked the player how our heroes should refer to her hero in-game. He? Her? It? I haven't a clue! But we've got to say something!

She said that 'they' is acceptable.

I do my best, but it's hard not to say 'she', simply because the player is female, and the only female at the table.

But I'll keep trying. My hero would definitely respect their decision.

EDIT: Big shout out to LordSynos for showing me how to get an avatar. : )

Silver Crusade

Why isn't my new avatar showing?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alice Margatroid wrote:
RE: the gender neutral pronouns... I actually break from my usual laissez-faire attitude when it comes to ze/xie/whatever. God, I hate them.

You certainly have the right to feel that way. Let me give you a peek over from my side of the fence, though.

I am a non transitioning FtM, though genderfluid or non gendered would probably describe me better. Every time I am referred to by a female pronoun, it grates and jars. I do not identify as female and it is painful and disturbing to be referred to as such. I also don't present as particularly male, so expecting people to use a masculine pronoun for me is not particularly reasonable. Nor do I feel that I am really entitled to it, or that it describes all of who I am right now, as I have made the decision not to either dress or transition.

When someone uses a word that consciously respects and acknowledges my gender identity, I really do appreciate that a lot. Weird pronouns are weird, but they do fit the bill and they are a clear acknowledgment of my actual gender status. Which is also, admittedly, weird.

An analogy would be that some people use the words husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, to describe the same sex partner of their gay friend. Those people are acknowledging their gay orientation and relationship status in a respectful way. They are normalizing and accepting that relationship with their words. I feel similarly about my genderqueer status. It's nice to be seen and acknowledged.

It's not necessary, though. I don't require or even bother to ask people I don't know extremely well to use gender neutral pronouns to describe me. My personal issues are entirely my own, and I can not expect anyone else to know them or be responsible for them. But the fact is that every time someone uses a gendered pronoun to refer to me, they are denying a core piece of who I am. They are making me invisible, unseen, unaccepted. I do not exist, because it's just too inconvenient to have a word for that.

It's not going to kill me, but it does get painfully wearing. It's just one more grain of sand on a blistered heel, rubbing my gender dysphoria raw. It's not terribly much fun.

Silver Crusade

TanithT wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:
RE: the gender neutral pronouns... I actually break from my usual laissez-faire attitude when it comes to ze/xie/whatever. God, I hate them.

You certainly have the right to feel that way. Let me give you a peek over from my side of the fence, though.

I am a non transitioning FtM, though genderfluid or non gendered would probably describe me better. Every time I am referred to by a female pronoun, it grates and jars. I do not identify as female and it is painful and disturbing to be referred to as such. I also don't present as particularly male, so expecting people to use a masculine pronoun for me is not particularly reasonable. Nor do I feel that I am really entitled to it, or that it describes all of who I am right now, as I have made the decision not to either dress or transition.

When someone uses a word that consciously respects and acknowledges my gender identity, I really do appreciate that a lot. Weird pronouns are weird, but they do fit the bill and they are a clear acknowledgment of my actual gender status. Which is also, admittedly, weird.

An analogy would be that some people use the words husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, to describe the same sex partner of their gay friend. Those people are acknowledging their gay orientation and relationship status in a respectful way. They are normalizing and accepting that relationship with their words. I feel similarly about my genderqueer status. It's nice to be seen and acknowledged.

It's not necessary, though. I don't require or even bother to ask people I don't know extremely well to use gender neutral pronouns to describe me. My personal issues are entirely my own, and I can not expect anyone else to know them or be responsible for them. But the fact is that every time someone uses a gendered pronoun to refer to me, they are denying a core piece of who I am. They are making me invisible, unseen, unaccepted. I do not exist, because it's just too inconvenient to have a word for
...

Okay....but which specific pronoun do you prefer? 'They', or one of the made up ones?

Liberty's Edge

TanithT wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:
RE: the gender neutral pronouns... I actually break from my usual laissez-faire attitude when it comes to ze/xie/whatever. God, I hate them.

You certainly have the right to feel that way. Let me give you a peek over from my side of the fence, though.

I am a non transitioning FtM, though genderfluid or non gendered would probably describe me better. Every time I am referred to by a female pronoun, it grates and jars. I do not identify as female and it is painful and disturbing to be referred to as such. I also don't present as particularly male, so expecting people to use a masculine pronoun for me is not particularly reasonable. Nor do I feel that I am really entitled to it, or that it describes all of who I am right now, as I have made the decision not to either dress or transition.

When someone uses a word that consciously respects and acknowledges my gender identity, I really do appreciate that a lot. Weird pronouns are weird, but they do fit the bill and they are a clear acknowledgment of my actual gender status. Which is also, admittedly, weird.

An analogy would be that some people use the words husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, to describe the same sex partner of their gay friend. Those people are acknowledging their gay orientation and relationship status in a respectful way. They are normalizing and accepting that relationship with their words. I feel similarly about my genderqueer status. It's nice to be seen and acknowledged.

It's not necessary, though. I don't require or even bother to ask people I don't know extremely well to use gender neutral pronouns to describe me. My personal issues are entirely my own, and I can not expect anyone else to know them or be responsible for them. But the fact is that every time someone uses a gendered pronoun to refer to me, they are denying a core piece of who I am. They are making me invisible, unseen, unaccepted. I do not exist, because it's just too inconvenient to have a word for
...

So I would use "they" for you. In fact, I do try to use "they" for when I'm not sure of someone's gender, not just when someone asks me to.

I understand your POV, I just think that zhe and whatever are poorly chosen and are unlikely to ever be a part of mainstream English in any conceivable way, for the reasons I mentioned above (Closed class/not being particularly "Englishy"/we already have a term in the language that people already use).


I agree that they are poorly chosen. I always get images of black-uniformed guy going "zhe prisoners vill be punished" and the like when I see zhe. =(


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Why isn't my new avatar showing?

When you're in "My Account", you have to go to the "Messageboard Aliases" and click the "Edit" button next to "Malachi Silverclaw". Then you can change the avatar.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

My very conservative community did this yesterday

Sorry I goofed the link I'll try again (I put up a link to an article from back in July, here is the current story)

Idaho Falls Partial Anti Discrimination Ordinance Passes

Now at the last minute they pulled the public accommodation part, but I kind of see why they did, but still.

And today our city is having its very first ever pride parade.

Silver Crusade

Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Why isn't my new avatar showing?
When you're in "My Account", you have to go to the "Messageboard Aliases" and click the "Edit" button next to "Malachi Silverclaw". Then you can change the avatar.

I have no messageboard aliases.

My account is under my real name, and Malachi was my first registered PFS character.

When I try to create a new alias called Malachi Silverclaw so I can then edit an image into it, it won't let me on the grounds that this name belongs to someone already. Yeah, me!

So how can I edit an image into an already created PFS character profile that was originally created without an image?


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Why isn't my new avatar showing?
When you're in "My Account", you have to go to the "Messageboard Aliases" and click the "Edit" button next to "Malachi Silverclaw". Then you can change the avatar.

I have no messageboard aliases.

My account is under my real name, and Malachi was my first registered PFS character.

When I try to create a new alias called Malachi Silverclaw so I can then edit an image into it, it won't let me on the grounds that this name belongs to someone already. Yeah, me!

So how can I edit an image into an already created PFS character profile that was originally created without an image?

Go to "My Account"

Click on "Make Changes" in the Pathfinder Society section.

The "My Characters" section should have your character in it.
Click on "Edit"

There should be a "Character Image" section at the top of the Optional Fields area. Probably another Change button will bring you to the page of images.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

Alrighty! So I went to the Raygun Lounge and had a good time! We found parking right around the corner, less than a block away so the walk wasn't too far and the lot was mostly empty even on a Friday night. It was $7 but that's not too bad. We could have parked farther away for less.

So I met at a friend's house and she and her girlfriend helped me get ready. They did my makeup. We were in a rush because I had to leave right from work and I take a while to put it on myself since I'm out of practice.

I have a purse in the shape of a d6 that I put a few small games in (Cthulhu Dice, We Didn't Playtest This At All & We Didn't Playtest This Either, and some dice in case we got into game). I also had a new purse that I had been waiting to use for a while. Clutch purses don't hold much. I also realized the fear that women have walking down the street carrying their purses. All my stuff was in there. When someone walked by, I was extra cautious so it wouldn't be grabbed. These are things I hadn't thought about until last night.

Anyway, another friend met us there so there were 4 of us. We joined another couple, a man and woman, and played games for about 4 hours or so. My friends called me Cindy since that's how I was dressed. The couple (I can't remember their names) always referred to me as female. I didn't ask them to, nor did I really need them to, but it was nice that they made a conscious effort to try and treat me the way they thought I wanted to be treated. I actually felt welcome.

Ashley was a nice hostess. She immediately left the game she was playing to greet us as we walked in the door. She didn't disrupt her game for long. One thing that I've always hated is when I've gone to game stores and the owner is playing a game and he leaves to chat with someone and forgets that he's also playing a game. If it's not about business, you're being a bad host to the people you are gaming with. Ashley didn't do that. She introduced herself, explained a little bit about the place, got our emails, then went back to gaming. She checked in on us a couple times, but she didn't ignore the people she was with. I respect that a lot.

I didn't have any anxiety related to being Cindy. I did start to get anxious toward the end of our night because I was trapped on the inside of the booth and after a few hours I always get a bit antsy if I can't move around.

When we left, we went back to my friends' house and got something to eat. I realized that I forgot my makeup remover and they didn't have theirs because they were still moving in and it was at their other place. I chose to drive home as Cindy and walk through my parking lot dressed up, alone. I seemed to have survived. I know that some of this may not seem like a big deal to some people but it's a huge step for me, especially being in the parking lot at my apartment by myself.

Here's some pictures.

Picture one
Full body
My nails
The girls!

I plan on going again if it lines up with my work schedule. I also feel a boost of confidence that will hopefully get me outside like this more often.

Thank you everyone who've been supportive. Even though I don't know any of you, it's been easier because of you.

Silver Crusade

thejeff wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Why isn't my new avatar showing?
When you're in "My Account", you have to go to the "Messageboard Aliases" and click the "Edit" button next to "Malachi Silverclaw". Then you can change the avatar.

I have no messageboard aliases.

My account is under my real name, and Malachi was my first registered PFS character.

When I try to create a new alias called Malachi Silverclaw so I can then edit an image into it, it won't let me on the grounds that this name belongs to someone already. Yeah, me!

So how can I edit an image into an already created PFS character profile that was originally created without an image?

Go to "My Account"

Click on "Make Changes" in the Pathfinder Society section.

The "My Characters" section should have your character in it.
Click on "Edit"

There should be a "Character Image" section at the top of the Optional Fields area. Probably another Change button will bring you to the page of images.

It worked!

Brilliant! Thanks, thejeff!

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Lot of Good Things

Well done. And congratulations for the walk back. That took guts.

I absolutely love the very first picture. You do look great and absolutely feminine (I hope this is the proper word).

Note that I asked my girlfriend for confirmation on this and she said she would not have imagined you could be a man.

Liberty's Edge

BTW, I propose the successfully raised children of same-sex couples as good examples that heterosexual people do not have the monopoly on the survival and prosperity of our species.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bob, love the pics. That dress is super flattering on you. Really glad you had a good time.:)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Okay....but which specific pronoun do you prefer? 'They', or one of the made up ones?

I am utterly indifferent to which one, as long as your form of speech does not shove me into a binary gender box that I truly do not belong in.

You could use "they", or make one up, or pick one that suits you, or randomly (at least occasionally, when you happen to think about it) switch back and forth between the gendered pronouns. All of these grammatical options are slightly awkward, since our society and our language simply isn't structured to accommodate people who do not happen to be at the polar ends of the gender spectrum. None of them are required. I'm not going to get particularly upset at anyone if they refer to me as either gender, unless it is in a discriminatory or derogatory way.

English basically treats gender as a binary rather than a spectrum, and this is a) scientifically inaccurate and b) extremely uncomfortable and unhappy-making for the trans* and gender variant folks who don't fit a binary model.

Again, you don't *have* to do anything, particularly. No one else is responsible for my gender issues but me, and I do not expect people to use special language to accommodate them. I will tell the truth about really not fitting into the binary model and finding it uncomfortable if asked, but I can't fix the entire language and cultural matrix. I don't expect anyone else to, either.


Lissa Guillet wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

And to stop hijacking the thread and get back to makeup:

Bob, if you're looking for fun ideas for more showy eye makeup, I love this Pinterest board: http://www.pinterest.com/eyemakeupideas/eye-makeup-ideas/

Some of them actually link to tutorials. :-)

For makeup tips I love love love pixiwoo. She does a ton of makeup tutorials and is very good at what she does. Pixiwoo Youtube Channel. Just putting that out there.

There are lots and lots (and I really do mean lots!) of makeup tutorials on YouTube. Everything from the basics to the extravagant.

You, Bob, might also want to search for "boy to girl" or "male to female" makeup tutorials. There are lots of drag tutorials too and while some of them might be a bit "over the top" for general use, they have to have the basics down before dialing it up to 11 for shows and such.

I'm sure my friends would wonder how a straight guy like me would know all of that :-p

2,801 to 2,850 of 17,696 << first < prev | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / General Discussion / The LGBT Gamer Community Thread. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.