You'd take it if you were a caster, or otherwise had a means of reliably flight. Cause then you don't really care what your land speed is.
I was surprised that the beta did not tie speed to size, as it has always seemed to be in the race writeups -- if you're medium size you have standard speed; if you're small you have 20 ft movement (with faster small races like goblins specifically having a feature called "fast movement" to account for their movement). As it is, I think the reason WHY -1 rp was assigned to the slow feature was to make it equivocal to the +1 rp cost of making the race small -- rather than force the two to be tied together, they just made the two costs cancel each other out.
And that brings us to--a major aspect of the beta playtest was folks noting many points values seemed to have been assigned to try and make existing classes come out to around 10 points, rather than necessarily make a more objective evaluation of what an ability was really worth. Many playtesters urged the developers to reevaluate that and revalue some of the abilities, even if that made some core races come out to more or less than 10 rp (no one really cared that some core races would come out as more or less powerful than some others, pointswise).
Given the APG's gone to the printer, IIRC, we'll have to see what the feedback from the beta resulted in them decided to do in the final product. It's quite possible slow speed was reevaluated in some way.
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Because it fits the GM's vision of the race.
Because it fits the GM's vision of the race.
A GM can make the race any way he see's fit standardizing the rules is about balance. After the rules are printed people are free to make races how ever they choose slow, fast, the rules serve as a guide to making what should be balanced races and they should strive to do that regardless of published race no system of abstractions will be free of holes, are archetypes all created equal well they try some are better or worse, some are just plain why would you (not) take this but overall they are all on or near the line in theory but somethings end up working too well or not well enough. This isn't about vision its about rules they won't be perfect but and you are free to ignore them for your vision.
As far as making slow a -1RP yeah seems like not enough to make up for the loss of speed just assume it's -2RP when you make the race if you are a GM, if you are a player talk to the GM about changing it in a way that he or she finds balanced, maybe giving the dwarf thing that makes it so they can't be slowed by armor or some other +1 RP trait that seems like it's not worth the +1 RP I'm sure there are a few that should only really be +.5 RP in there.
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If the GM isn't going to use the tool meant for GMs to be able to create races and he's just going to do whatever he sees fit...well then I don't know why we're even having this discussion about the ARG's race builder.
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It's what they said; the playtesters tried to make all races 10 points, and overcosted things like skills and undercosted this to make it perfect. Who wouldn't also want the dwarven "hardy" trait for 1 point?
It is also just a GM guideline; it's not going to end up perfect. In a Player's hands they would put the stat bonuses exactly where they wanted them (Str/Con fighters, Int/Str Magus, etc), and take the cheaper specific feat line and get the exact feats they want for their "built race" (this is the Alchemist race; yes, every member is an alchemist, since that is what the gods tailor-made them to be).
I'm more interested in the race prestige classes and feats; and new PFS-legal races from this book. The cusomization optional rules are typically wasted papers as far as I'm concerned.
If the GM isn't going to use the tool meant for GMs to be able to create races and he's just going to do whatever he sees fit...well then I don't know why we're even having this discussion about the ARG's race builder.
Disagreeing with one thing =/= disagreeing with the whole.
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If the GM isn't going to use the tool meant for GMs to be able to create races and he's just going to do whatever he sees fit...well then I don't know why we're even having this discussion about the ARG's race builder.
Uh... I think you got it backwards. If the tool doesn't accurately price abilities, then there is no point in GMs using it.
You are absolutely right that a GM will assign a slow speed to a race when it fits the theme of the race he is designing. But the whole idea of having costs assigned to each trait is to help GMs come up with good and balanced races. But if the costs are off, then they don't really help, now do they? If that's the case, I'm just going to completely ignore the costs and just eyeball the balance as always. And if I am doing that, what's the point of even having a race builder?
That's the argument being made.
If we all universally agree that the costs are off, then there's a problem. I just don't think movement loss should be more than -1 RP, or rather there are many other aspects to race building that are just as important as movement rate. I don't see the numbers being off, just individual opinions are individual and no one will ever agree which numbers are right - so you have to start somewhere as a baseline. In the race builder they are there.
You may not like the choice on numbers, but that doesn't make the rules off or broken. Perhaps in your game, and you shouldn't use it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the rest of us. I think the numbers are fine.
Well, considering the information that it being used in this discussion comes from an obsolete playtest, I don't really think this discussion is productive.
It's also a bit pointless as the book is 'finished,' in that no changes will be made to what is in it now until the second printing, which will be a much longer time.
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A DM would make a race slow because.. he wanted to make a slow race rather than a faster one.
The book isn't for PC's to power tweak the bestest mostest uberest race possible for their chosen class.
Its for DM's to make creatures with some reasonable semblance of balance towards the other races. (whatever race point value they are trying to match)
Maybe its some BIG strong but lumbering ponderous creature, maybe its a small sized critter and the DM wants it to be small to match the rest of them.
The fact is, if the DM is world building there's really no reason for there not to be some slower critters in it.. just like there will be some normal speed and some faster..
It all has to have some cost.
-S
It's ridiculous to decided how fast a creature is based on size. For the life of me I have no clue why halflings have a 20 move. It just doesn't make any sense. Goblins, kobolds, most small fey, in fact almost every single small sized monster in the game has at least a 30 move or an alternate move like climb, swim, or fly speed. The only 20 move creatures in the game are player races and there's no reason for it IMO. Speed should probably be based on stats rather then race or size.
Go on a walk with a child some time I'm sure you'll enjoy the fresh air and take note of how the children are just as fast as you with out rushing to keep up :)
And as to my earlier comment what I meant was the points should be the built to balance if they lack the balance the system is a wast of space because a GM can already make a small race the point of having a race builder is to have a good guideline.
It's ridiculous to decided how fast a creature is based on size. For the life of me I have no clue why halflings have a 20 move. It just doesn't make any sense. Goblins, kobolds, most small fey, in fact almost every single small sized monster in the game has at least a 30 move or an alternate move like climb, swim, or fly speed. The only 20 move creatures in the game are player races and there's no reason for it IMO. Speed should probably be based on stats rather then race or size.
My assumption has always been because they have proportionately short legs to the rest of their bodies (although current depictions of gnomes and halflings don't actually match that description very well).
Well Boggards have it. In my game at present one is a Boggard. Now their acrobatics can be so high, that they can cover a good distance with jumps, move up onto things, down, across, etc, but their base speed is actually 20.
This strangely works so far. The boggard can swim well or jump well, but they don't move so well when not doing the above.
The player has not complained. They are a rogue.
Go on a walk with a child some time I'm sure you'll enjoy the fresh air and take note of how the children are just as fast as you with out rushing to keep up :)
Children are not halflings or gnomes. They're comparable in height but gnomes and halflings can be amazingly strong compared to their height and weight. Know any 6 year olds that can lift 100lbs? A better example would be some sort of primate. I'm thinking a chimp could probably outpace me even on the ground.
My assumption has always been because they have proportionately short legs to the rest of their bodies (although current depictions of gnomes and halflings don't actually match that description very well).Regardless though, why is it that goblins, which are freakishly out of proportion (with big heads and stubby little limbs) are faster then halflings or gnomes, which appear to be in proportion. Back when halflings were still called hobbits you could argue that hobbits were slower because they were fat and out of shape. Halflings are trim and lean. I really don't see any reason to penalize them.
You've got to penalize them somewhere, to give them a +1 somewhere else. If you give them back full speed, what will you subtract to balance the race?
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On behalf of the fans of the bearded stunties, hairy footed half-pints and crazy gnomes, a 20 foot move is not that much of a game breaker. So many people are in such a rush to go first and charge in when your better off holding your action til the bad guys move so you can get all your attacks off. Heck in narrow dungeon Corridors in the dark the encounters may not even often be over 20 feet away.
Beyond that there are countless ways to move faster if your so eager to get up close and personal with something ugly and eager to eat you. That's provided your not ranged yourself of course.
Sure Goblins are freakishly fast but beyond that and an unreal stealth bonus they haven't got allot going for them.
Maybe your race is slow and steady, maybe the speed is due to them simply having a shorter stride then a typical medium sized creature, all in all though Ive never seen a 20 foot speed incur a large enough problem to merit it as an extreme flaw.
What advantages does being a gnome or halfling have that requires a penalty? Being small? To me that's a self balancing trait. You get bonuses to hit but loose damage capability, you get a bonus to AC but have penalties to grapple. Exactly what are halflings and gnomes getting for their speed penalties?
Being small they get a bonus to ac, and to hit as well as a bonus to hide, also they can use medium sized mounts.
In the end it is about specialization, if you build for it size can be a bonus instead of a penalty.
Then again, almost every single rules set for creating small anythings in D20 systems sets small critter's speed down and larger creature's speed up.
A three foot tall human DOES move slower than a seven foot tall human.
Arguing that it isn't fair is like arguing that it's not fair for medium creatures to have all the same disadvantages when compared to a large creature.
Or that it's unfair for a large creature that a huge creature has all the same advantages over him as he does over a medium creature.
Slippery slopes and all that.
I do find it odd that slow was a trait separate from being small, as, like i (and other people) said before, it's one of the staples of the d20 systems.
i can understand it's a DM tool for creating races.
but i can also understand the race builder being used for unique hybrids of racial traits. like an elf raised by dwarves, or the off spring of a dwarf and an orc. or things like a specific human blessed by a specific otherworldly power whose abilities might be different from the norm.
It's ridiculous to decided how fast a creature is based on size. For the life of me I have no clue why halflings have a 20 move. It just doesn't make any sense. Goblins, kobolds, most small fey, in fact almost every single small sized monster in the game has at least a 30 move or an alternate move like climb, swim, or fly speed. The only 20 move creatures in the game are player races and there's no reason for it IMO. Speed should probably be based on stats rather then race or size.Race a six to ten year old sometime. See how it comes out.
my 11 year old cousin is faster than me, she has more energy, she requires less room to manuever, and she is much more agile. she can also jump higher and farther than me, and beat up/wrestle heavyweight boys twice her size. and she's not even 5 feet tall yet.
i see her as proof that physical attributes shouldn't be tied to size. such as speed, agility or strength.
A medium race that takes the slow penalty gets the advantage that they are not slowed by encumbrance or armor.
That pretty much cancels out the penalty in the first place for many martial classes that wear medium/heavy armor.
my 11 year old cousin is faster than me, she has more energy, she requires less room to manuever, and she is much more agile. she can also jump higher and farther than me, and beat up/wrestle heavyweight boys twice her size. and she's not even 5 feet tall yet.
i see her as proof that physical attributes shouldn't be tied to size. such as speed, agility or strength.
So, she wrestles guys twice her size? That's 8 foot tall men! HOLY SHMEAGOL!
Nah, she's just benefiting from her young template's +4 to dexterity. I could climb hallways and do 30+ pullups when i was a kid.Also, anecdotal evidence translates poorly when speaking gaming. You could have really low strength scores of 6 or 8 while the small creature has an 18 to strength, which with it's -2 penalty, still translates to a solid 16.
It's ridiculous to decided how fast a creature is based on size. For the life of me I have no clue why halflings have a 20 move. It just doesn't make any sense. Goblins, kobolds, most small fey, in fact almost every single small sized monster in the game has at least a 30 move or an alternate move like climb, swim, or fly speed. The only 20 move creatures in the game are player races and there's no reason for it IMO. Speed should probably be based on stats rather then race or size.Race a six to ten year old sometime. See how it comes out.my 11 year old cousin is faster than me, she has more energy, she requires less room to manuever, and she is much more agile. she can also jump higher and farther than me, and beat up/wrestle heavyweight boys twice her size. and she's not even 5 feet tall yet.
i see her as proof that physical attributes shouldn't be tied to size. such as speed, agility or strength.
If your 11 year old cousin is over 4 feet tall, she is size Medium. How fast could she run when she was a toddler under 4 feet tall?
It's ridiculous to decided how fast a creature is based on size. For the life of me I have no clue why halflings have a 20 move. It just doesn't make any sense. Goblins, kobolds, most small fey, in fact almost every single small sized monster in the game has at least a 30 move or an alternate move like climb, swim, or fly speed. The only 20 move creatures in the game are player races and there's no reason for it IMO. Speed should probably be based on stats rather then race or size.Race a six to ten year old sometime. See how it comes out.my 11 year old cousin is faster than me, she has more energy, she requires less room to manuever, and she is much more agile. she can also jump higher and farther than me, and beat up/wrestle heavyweight boys twice her size. and she's not even 5 feet tall yet.
i see her as proof that physical attributes shouldn't be tied to size. such as speed, agility or strength.
If your 11 year old cousin is over 4 feet tall, she is size Medium. How fast could she run when she was a toddler under 4 feet tall?
i don't know. never witnessed that part of her life. but people on these boards have suggested using the young template for 8-12 year olds. most 8-12 year olds i see are taller than just 4 feet. 6 or under, i can understand.
the closest comparison for small size would be a kindergartener. and those are typically 4-6. i admit that those are slower.
What advantages does being a gnome or halfling have that requires a penalty? Being small? To me that's a self balancing trait. You get bonuses to hit but loose damage capability, you get a bonus to AC but have penalties to grapple. Exactly what are halflings and gnomes getting for their speed penalties?Being small they get a bonus to ac, and to hit as well as a bonus to hide, also they can use medium sized mounts.
In the end it is about specialization, if you build for it size can be a bonus instead of a penalty.
For a +1 to hit they do less damage
For a +1 to AC they have a -1 to CMB and CDB\
The +4 bonus to stealth doesn't seem to have a direct penalty associated with it, however being small does have other penalties that don't have a counter:
1) reduced carrying capacity. Small creatures can only carry 3/4th as much as a medium sized character.
2) Equipment is usually sized for medium creatures, most small PCs aren't going to find equipment sized for them.
3) Most combat maneuvers are geared towards creatures your size or smaller. Small characters have fewer options and more vulnerabilities then medium sized characters.
On top of all this there is a speed penalty. I'm thinking small characters need the hide bonus because they have no chance of outrunning most monsters in the game.
1) mos equipment weighs only 1/2 as much for them though, that is a net gain for them.
2) circumstancial, it could be true depending on the campaign or the opposite, not inherently a disadvantage by raw only a few items are really affected by this anyway.
3) this is true
I should add though that if you are small you probably will not focus on being a combat maneuver specialist, a few ranks in stealth go a long way, a character that focuses on spellcasting or non-damaging 'weapons'will never have much trouble with weapon damage, +1 to hit is often more important than the penalty on damage a smaller weapon brings, while true that most small races have a strength penalty that is usually balanced by having a bonus in other areas.
3)
Halflings wish they were the size of a ten year old, their size range overlaps mostly with that of preschoolers.
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I'm planning on slapping Slow on one of my Medium races on account of them being a generally aquatic folk with cecaelia-like bodies. They can shapeshift their lower bodies to have humanoid legs in a bout a minute, but it's an unusual way to ambulate for them and their body structure doesn't help. It helps drive home that they're not really all that well adapted to dry land.
(so they really shouldn't be getting the Steady freebie that was tagged onto Slow in the playtest)
Race a six to ten year old sometime. See how it comes out.You do realize that a ten year old is comparable to halfling / gnome in size only right? For their size gnomes and halflings are freakishly strong. A 33lb halfling with an 8 STR can lift and stagger around with 120lbs of gear. Keep in mind that's the average halfling. How many 10 year olds you know that can lift nearly 4 times their weight?
A better example would some sort of adult primate. Race a Chimp sometime. See how that comes out.
Then again chimps are much stronger than humans, and tend to run on all fours so the comparison isn't all that great. As is I think halflings are meant to be nimble turning and twisting around corners much easier but they should lose out on a straightforward race.
I think 30' to 20' might seem to be a bit much of a difference, but I think they should be slower and rather have them move 20' rather than 25' which would be a bit too fast compared to the 30' that humans move.
In a normal d20 system, if you want your short guys to be fast, you either: make them faster than 20 through paying a cost or make them be on the lower end of medium.
Next thing, you guys are going to be saying that you know a guy over 9ft tall who's really slow and that all large creatures should start out with 20ft speed.
I doubt this discussion is so much about wether it is realistic or not that small creatures are slower, rather wether it is balanced, being small has it's own pre's and con's to balance with medium sized races.
Personally I rather have them pay cost to move faster than 20', honestly though I do not like to have many small folk in my campaigns, they tend to detract from a more gritty feel for the campaign so I am fine with them being at a slight disadvantage.
small size already has a massive penalty built in.
there is extreme difficulty finding loot for a small sized PC unless the adventure is specifcally designed to accomodate them.
tiny and large have these issues too.
small size already has a massive penalty built in.
there is extreme difficulty finding loot for a small sized PC unless the adventure is specifcally designed to accomodate them.
tiny and large have these issues too.
That is not a 'built in' penalty, most gear is quite easily usable by medium and small characters alike, most GMs I play with have most magical gear resize within one size catgory or so with the exception of weapons and armor, but then I imagine builds dependant on these are not the most ideal for small characters anyway.
Most GMs actually make sure everyone gets a share of gear and/or at least can custom order it with gold they make, usually I do not find there is any significant WBL difference, but I suppose it might be a problem at some tables.
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I was thinking about creating a race with the upper body of a human and the lower body of a serpent, think Cecrops. Really smart and tough and almost perfect race for a magus, but on the down side they would suffer a -2 to dexterity and have a slow movement speed. I thought it had a unique feel to it.
I was thinking about creating a race with the upper body of a human and the lower body of a serpent, think Cecrops. Really smart and tough and almost perfect race for a magus, but on the down side they would suffer a -2 to dexterity and have a slow movement speed. I thought it had a unique feel to it.
with the dexterity penalty alone, no magus player would touch that race.
it hurts thier dervish dance builds by an effective -2 to hit and damage compared to an elf. magi don't have a lot of ways to buff damage. only choices are dervish dance or agile weapons.
the slow speed hurts melee combatants period.
essentially those 2 penalties would cripple the magus, whose primary role is lightly armored melee combatant.
in comparison to the elf, you would have to compensate for a loss of 2 points of armor class, 2 points of to hit and damage bonuses, 2 points of reflex saves, 10 feet of speed, 2 points of acrobatics bonus, 2 points of CMD, 2 points of ever stacking spell penetration, 2 points of initiative bonus and so on.
i don't think 2 extra hit points per level is going to be enough.
I was thinking about creating a race with the upper body of a human and the lower body of a serpent, think Cecrops. Really smart and tough and almost perfect race for a magus, but on the down side they would suffer a -2 to dexterity and have a slow movement speed. I thought it had a unique feel to it.with the dexterity penalty alone, no magus player would touch that race.
it hurts thier dervish dance builds by an effective -2 to hit and damage compared to an elf. magi don't have a lot of ways to buff damage. only choices are dervish dance or agile weapons.
the slow speed hurts melee combatants period.
essentially those 2 penalties would cripple the magus, whose primary role is lightly armored melee combatant.
in comparison to the elf, you would have to compensate for a loss of 2 points of armor class, 2 points of to hit and damage bonuses, 2 points of reflex saves, 10 feet of speed, 2 points of acrobatics bonus, 2 points of CMD, 2 points of ever stacking spell penetration, 2 points of initiative bonus and so on.
i don't think 2 extra hit points per level is going to be enough.
Not ideal by itself, lets assume it will not be a dervish dancer build though :
the race gets other benefits to compensate for slow movement and and spell penetration, two more feats (weapon finesse and dervish dance will not be their feat choice I assume), they can do without acrobatics it is less appealing for a slow moving race anyway, +2 reflex is replaced by fortitude, reflex saves usually allow you to get less damage, this race has more hitpoints to compensate, and things do not look quite as terrible as you make it out to be, monstrous form is only a casting away and usually get more strength bonus than dexterity so eventually their damage output will be better. It will also replace weapon familiarity which is useless for a magus.