Hi, a bit of advice or commentary would be welcome.
Our group is VERY old, more than 25 years of playing. We just started PF, having played all DnD versions, and a number of other systems. We like to play hard, and we take turns in DMing, so we agreed to make 25 point buy characters, and that the world should be highly magical, meaning wealth by lvl should be capped at x2 table value, as pr. Rules.
Well, we are having great fun, but we are overpowered compared to a monster of our CR.
Two barbarians, a strength sorcerer (going towards Dragon Disciple), a Synthesist/rogue, a Summoner, a whitch, and an Oracle. So 6 players and current DMs char possibly as npc when we are all there.
The barbarians obliterate virtually everything that is big and heavy. The melee sorcerer, synthesist, and summoner, deals very effectively with things that are many and weaker. Oracle can heal enormeous amounts, and whitch is very effective crowd controller.
So we have to up the CR to get some resistance, which is making people mumble 'system broken'. People have been smart about their characters, but I would hesitate to call chese or the like, given our low level.
We are having fun, so the real problem is: are we doing something wrong, or is Pathfinder a little bit low on the CR?
give all the monsters maxiumum hps.
we too have 6 players at 25 point, and this gives the beasties the resiliency to stand up and do there funky stuff
so your CR 7 enemies like a chimera get 136hp, and the shadow demons 91hp should take a while to take down and a huge earth elemental has 140hp
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Well, low levels barbarians do obliterate; that's their nature. Especially in high-point campaign. Barbarian is the #1 class for being strong low and fading out.
Summoners (and their ilk) are OP; especially the synth. The summoner will run into the problem that the Eidilon tends to have weak saves, the summoner tends to be easy to hit.
So bottom line, you have a well-set for lower levels party; but first, CR assumes 15-point buy, 4 character parties with average loot; you're 6 player, 25 point build, double loot. So yes, you will need to make some major adjustments to challenge them.
Higher levels weak save classes and increasing monster power for the additional wealth/players/point and you should be OK. If they want a challenge, go 15 point, lessen wealth to comp for extra players (or increase all CRs by 1), and you should be OK.
Well, the first thing first, is by the CR system, your party is APL 7-8.
CR 4 +1 for extra people, +1 for 25PB, +1 for double wealth, +1 for super optimized builds.
so realistically, you should be throwing CR 7-8 challenges against the party.
remember, the system is designed for four 15 point buy characters. You choose to go over that, you have to adjust the CR. its not broken in that way.
Variances within the same CR however, is completely broken, but thats another post.
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Your group sounds like mine: mostly 20+ year gamers (with a couple newbies) and 6 players.
The 3.5 CR system (and PF's, by extension) is more like a set of guidelines than rules. Add in that those guidelines are based on assumptions about the player's experience level (new players versus system masters), number (4 players versus more or less), composition (classes), and construction (15-points versus 25 points). From the sounds of it, you have a party that is destined to wreck the CR system.
The best advice i can give you is to adjust the foes up in number ad staying power (max HP). More foes mean the number of actions available to the GM go up and more HP means that the foes have a better chance of lasting multiple rounds.
-Skeld
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You have 6 well built players, the CR needs to be adjusted for that. Breaking the balance through these various elements does not equal a broken system. Pathfinder is actually much more balanced than 3.5, and lack of experience with the system seems to be a big factor. Pathfinder is not 3.5, and if need be, a mantra amongst players and the DM.
Agreed.
System isn't broken, you started way beyond baseline.
I count 7 PC's if they are all playing.
High powered stats.
And x2 wealth by level.
Of course you are going to obliterate everything at your CR.
I would count that group as at least level 6 maybe 7 due to the large number of actions you have avail.
If you also have people that are good at optimizing characters, that would definitely give it a 7 on equivalent level.
That is really not a fair test of the baseline system because it doesn't follow the baseline assumptions.
I think at 4 PC's, 15 point buy, and wealth by level you would tend to find the system fairly challenging but not excessively so.
Personally, I think pathfinder might be slightly low on the CR. But that is mostly because the module encounters I've seen tend to rely on a single bad guy who only gets a single action to the party's 4+ actions. If you build the same encounter level with a few more lower level opponents, I think it does pretty well.
Pathfinder generally attempts to balance CR against a 15 point-buy 4-character party. You have 6-7 characters, and 25 point-buy. Nothing broken about the fact that you over-power enemies of equal CR. For that party, I would consider anything 2 CR above average party level to be equivalent to CR of the same level for a normal party.
Um... the game was balanced for 15 point buy. (PFS may have been aimed at 20 pb)
So you are much stronger out of the box right there. Combine that with people who know how to make strong build's and you are not going to be able to use typical monsters.
My suggestion is throw test encounters at them. Figure out for yourself what changes need to be made to get the CR where it should be. Try boosting the monsters stats till they balance well where the CR suggests they should.
Four moderately optimized* characters with 15-pt buy will generally not have much trouble with even-CR encounters. As other people have mentioned, your party is well above even that in several dimensions; you need to jack up the CR considerably. CR is also just a guideline; if, for the style of encounters you like to run, CR N is too easy, you just bump it up until the players feel challenged. (I'm surprised that a group familiar with 3.5 is displeased with PF in this regard, since 3.5 was a trillion times worse with regards to party power variability.)
*Generally spending character options on choices that are above-average at helping you overcome standard game challenges and not making really unusual structural decisions.
Well, the first thing first, is by the CR system, your party is APL 7-8.
CR 4 +1 for extra people, +1 for 25PB, +1 for double wealth, +1 for super optimized builds.
so realistically, you should be throwing CR 7-8 challenges against the party.
remember, the system is designed for four 15 point buy characters. You choose to go over that, you have to adjust the CR. its not broken in that way.
Variances within the same CR however, is completely broken, but thats another post.
This (and everyone else).
Not at all intending to sound condescending because I know you (Tandriniel's group) are experienced gamers, but I suggest you re-read the encounter design of the gamemastering section of the core rules.
You will see your problems highlighted in the rules itself:
You need to determine your Average Party Level (what Weables is mentioning above).
See how the "how to determine your average party level" paragraph says
If your group contains six or more players, add one to their average level.
So right there, the core rulebook itself has told you, you have calculated your APL incorrectly--your party of 6-7 4th level characters is at least APL 5. And you determine what CR is appropriate to throw at your party based on APL, not each characters' individual level.
The rules do not have an explicit guideline about adjusting for point buy used, but as the baseline for determining CR is assuming everyone has 15 point buy, you can't use 25 point buy and expect the challenges to remain as challenging.
As a GM, start adding 2-4 more monsters to each fight, and throw on advanced templates (or other templates). Pay attention to stuff like terrain -- bear in mind movement and weather effects and how that can make encounters more challenging.
I would consider your party APL+2 (or 6 in this case) based on the following: +1 for 6-7 PC's, +1 for double wealth by level.
The group I DM for has 6 PC's with 25-point buy and I regularly throw in the advanced template for free on many monsters they face because of the PC's higher starting stats (but not all, for instance I won't normally throw an advanced template on top of a monster with PC levels due to the huge bump in stats they get as a result).
If your group is very experienced and good at optimizing as you indicate, consider giving 75% or 100% of max hit points to many enemies as well. If the group is looking for more of a challenge then up the challenge!
But, no, the CR system isn't broken. You just have to use it appropriately as a guideline and modify to suit your needs. Good luck!
+1 APL for high point buy, +1 APL for six-seven characters. At least +1 APL for double the expected wealth. Nothing exactly broken here.
Also it is worth to remember than when CR equals APL then the encounter is actually quite easy. CR +1 is intended to be challenging, CR +2 hard and CR +3 truly heroic.
Mind control a barbarian, and have him do your monster's job. Or mind control the crowd controller, if he is as optimized as good as you claim, he can crowd control the barbarian, effectively taking 2 of your 6 out of the mix.
I would infact apply the correct apl modifiers then throw at the party a +3 encounter. After a single spell or supernatural abilites wipes a couple Pc's then you could balance the party. With fresh Pc's at 15 point buys.
I would think that your party is in the realm of apl 8 or higher. I would say 4 +1 for the sixth +1 for the seventh +1 for high stats +1 for the double wealth. +.5 for being optimized.
So test the waters with a cr 11 creature. Unfortunatley with the scope of builds sats and wealth with players you are on a dowhill spiral. A CR 11 creature should probably result in a TPK.
Multiple CR 4-6 rather than a single CR 11 should give them a challenge and a TPK is less likely.
Mind control a barbarian, and have him do your monster's job. Or mind control the crowd controller, if he is as optimized as good as you claim, he can crowd control the barbarian, effectively taking 2 of your 6 out of the mix.
As a DM i would suggest NOT doing this. Losing mental control of your character as a player unless you planned on taking a long break is the most boring thing ever and I have never heard players say "boy when i couldn't play for that whole combat that was super fun".
Just make s*@* harder... Pretty simple.
We play with 15 points as the game suggest, and we follow (roughly) the expected wealth by level, and we don't have such issues. Maybe try it? I don't think the "system" is "broken" if you play, you know... by the system. Ignoring a rule system is hardly a proof that said system is broken.
On the other hand, you have 6 characters, one of them with a "pet". That's 7 standard actions per turn. Make sure you adjust the CR properly, including a higher number of creatures. You need at least a 50% extra creatures for a proper CR
Are you running a home brewed campaign or an AP or other set of modules?
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I would suggest, if you wanted to "run hard", then have then all be 15 point buy and low magice (50% WBL). Then those even CRs might prove a bit more challenging and can even out the gaming experience.
Giving players as experienced as you say a huge point buy pool and massive wealth, then expect to have to work extra hard as a GM.
If your group wants a challenge, stop playing a Rich Superhero campaign. As others have already said, yer doin' it wrong....but if rich superheros are what the party wants and is fun for you guys (nothing wrong there at all), you just have to provide villains and plots that are suitable.
Mind control a barbarian, and have him do your monster's job. Or mind control the crowd controller, if he is as optimized as good as you claim, he can crowd control the barbarian, effectively taking 2 of your 6 out of the mix.As a DM i would suggest NOT doing this. Losing mental control of your character as a player unless you planned on taking a long break is the most boring thing ever and I have never heard players say "boy when i couldn't play for that whole combat that was super fun".
I disagree, every time I've seen a mentally influenced character, the D/GM pulled him/her aside and let her know what was coming. One character was mentally dominated by an evil staff and switched his alignment to LE. Started making subtle suggestions to certain character who wouldn't mind certain actions. Like myself, playing a Half-Orc Ranger in a sea campagin with favorite enemy human (specifically pirates). When he mentioned the possibility of sneaking up to the pirate barracks in their dock and burning it down with the doors barricaded while they slept, she was all for it. When he mentioned animating their bodies to board the incoming ships and kill all of them, she agreed. When he wanted to animate the local wildlife, she wasn't very happy with him and brought the concerns up with the other members and realized he wasn't himself.
He (sorta) became our BBEG for a time and had great fun doing it. We all had a blast and it's one of our more memorable experiences to date. If anyone mentions a black staff, he reflexively says, "I wantses it" whether he can use it or not.
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Totally agree with Tels. Most players (and even the whole group in my experience) have enjoyed moments where people fall to Suggestion or other mind control (suggestion is the most fun, in my opinion, as it lets the player keep control, but really they're playing for the DM).
You get the element of fear an suspense that isn't there versus NPCs....and nothing beats one player rolling while looking at his friend sadly and saying, "I'm so sorry, bro..."
Situations like that are memorable, tense, and dramatic when done by a group with a good dynamic who enjoys the game. If you have a bunch of entitled neckbeards who only feel good about their lives through their PCs....well....then I'd avoid mind control in your games.
Recommend you sic a clan of inbred ogres on 'em, complete with banjos, a fondness for calling PCs "hawgs" and the whole bit.
How many ogres ? How ever many it takes to realize a challenge for them. Starting run would be, say, six.
If they wipe them out in a hurry, play up being lost in the Appalachians, dawgs (worgs?) baying on the wind as more of the freaks come callin'...
Clan pappy could be, say, a hill giant or two (married brother-sister if you're twisted enough) if they barely break a sweat on them thair ogres... ^__^
Hi all,
Super high quality feedback, of course you are right, our APL is +2 or +3. I am sure beefing opponents as suggested will quickly normalize the game.
A few comments: it was suggested that we TPK :). Well, we are actually investing a lot of mail-based story-telling, fleshing out the characters and the world, so we will probably not go for the drastic solution.
One mentioned that synthesist is OP. Well, not in our case, he is least lethal. But he has a cool story.
An unintended side effect is that casters will suffer when we up the CR. for example Summon Monster is a significantly less effective spell, when monsters are +3 CR. also dam pr caster level spells suffer if monsters have full HP.
Thanks everyone, great input!
Totally agree with Tels. Most players (and even the whole group in my experience) have enjoyed moments where people fall to Suggestion or other mind control (suggestion is the most fun, in my opinion, as it lets the player keep control, but really they're playing for the DM).
You get the element of fear an suspense that isn't there versus NPCs....and nothing beats one player rolling while looking at his friend sadly and saying, "I'm so sorry, bro..."
Situations like that are memorable, tense, and dramatic when done by a group with a good dynamic who enjoys the game. If you have a bunch of entitled neckbeards who only feel good about their lives through their PCs....well....then I'd avoid mind control in your games.
Wow, that is a rather rude response.
That aside honestly both situations described by tels and you involve prior DM/Player discussion and a mutual agreement that adds story to a campaign or having the player play being their own evil twin (which doesn't work because the player will hold back 90% of the time). If you are just doing joe schmoe encounter that challenges the group, mind control usually isn't fun.
The question is - shouldn't the GM have some fun as well? *evilgrin* Attacking a PC with a spell targeting his/her weak save is totally legit. Or would you deny a monster Power Attack just because the PC could be brought to negatives, taking him out of the game?
Anyways, back to topic:
Apart from all what has been said concerning up'ing CR of the encounters, remember to up the number of monsters your group encounters, too. Otherwise action economy will favor the group. Instead of throwing a young black dragon (CR 7) at them, go for three very young black dragons (CR 8) and see what happens.
Ruyan.
I agree with everything that have been said, just one more thing: you guys play with a party which 1) is composed by more members than what the system has in mind 2) is composed by optimized characters 3) has access to double the wealth it should have (at low level this is even more relevant) 4) composed by member with higher than normal stats. If you don't play like this to obliterate everything with a CR even remotely clore to your level, why do you play like this?
Still, as others have said, you have to balance the encounters, I'd do it like that.
max hp for monsters (to balance higher stats)
advanced/giant template (to balance wealth)
additional minions (to balance numbers)
slightly higher base CRs (to balance optimization)
Simply putting in creature 4 CRs above your level could be a problem: a single attack could kill one of you, area of effects and auras could kill you or send you all flying.
So rather than comment on TPK, we have came to the conclusion that your party level APL is bit higher than 4, So I was looking at the SRD site to find a bunch list of CR equivlent creatures. First cr 4 creatures probably not tough enough with a bison on this list it doesn't seem to tough unless you wanted to fight with allot of these it wont really be tough.
cr 6 Ettin I think your pcs may be walk over this guy add a couple more and you have a decent slugfest.
So you should try to find some creatures that are tough lets suggest cr7 creatures that your party can fight, lets try a Chuul. Likely the Chuul could be killed in 2-3 rounds. This would be a tough fight for a apl 4 group. Your party, one would get grappled another character would get in range for a full attack and start the murder of the beast. chance of character death pretty low.
So going to cr 8 lets think what would happen against a Behir. So a regular group of 4th level characters likely TPK. Your party probably could probably handle it but may suffer some deaths. Area affect is dangerous not deadly. Expect PC to survive through at least one full attack from this guy.
Cr9 Vampire TPK unless the vampire is caught in his lair even then fireball x5 deadly.
I would think your party is around 6-7 but I would not advise pushing past a single cr 8 creatures, but throw in a couple lower crs monsters into a mix you could tailor monsters with DR or other special defenses to aggravate the PC's. A Chuul and 2 ettin's may end up becoming a decent fight.
CR 4 is really easy. Dark Stalker. One of the most OP creatures in the game. Deeper Darkness at will, can see through all darkness and a 3d6 sneak attack. The PCs can't overcome the Deeper Darkness until 5th level when casters get Daylight. Even then, the Daylight counters the first Deeper Darkness, so he uses Deeper Darkness for a second time and it's dark again.
PCs with Darkvision can't see through Deeper Darkness, but the Dark Stalker and his Dark Creeper minions, maybe even a Dark Slayer, can certainly see you. A Dark Stalker wtih two Dark Creepers and one Dark Slayer is a CR 7 encounter. However, this will more than likely result in a TPK (even a single Dark Stalker could result in a TPK), so I wouldn't suggest using it.
Three Dark Creepers and one Dark Slayer, however, is a much more manageable threat and roughly a CR 6 encounter (it goes a little over on the XP budget at 2,600 instead of 2,400). Sine your APL is toughly 6, this would be an average encounter, if you wanted a challenging encounter, throw on another Dark Slayer for a roughly CR 7 encounter.
I agree with everything that have been said, just one more thing: you guys play with a party which 1) is composed by more members than what the system has in mind 2) is composed by optimized characters 3) has access to double the wealth it should have (at low level this is even more relevant) 4) composed by member with higher than normal stats. If you don't play like this to obliterate everything with a CR even remotely clore to your level, why do you play like ...
Well we know that now :-).
We didn't realize the consequenses of our choices beforehand, +3 APL is huge.
Now we know, and we are currently discussing nerf or monster buf. I am for nerfing, going to normal wealth and 15 point buy. Would still leave us at lvl +1 with numbers, but we can up the CR with more mobs, favouring action economy on mobs side, as suggested.
Please note we thought stupidly that APL was the same, more or less, that 15 or 25 point buy was less significant, etc.
You did not think stupidly, you just did not have experience with high-fantasy playing. Nothing wrong with it, as long as you, as the GM, are willing to put in the extra work to make the encounters extra-special. Some GM's relish this challenge, some would rather spend less time preparing extra stuff, and just get on with gaming.
Your plan to lower characters back down to 15 pt and normal wealth is just fine, if you can come to consensus with your group. If you are leaning toward this solution personally, if I were you, I would sit down with the group, tell them this is your preference, and the reason why is that you don't have the time to alter every combat in the AP. If you don't mind customising all the encounters, that's great too, but I would still suggest bringing average wealth back down to normal, as the higher point buy and larger party is already raising APL up +2, and going to +3 does make it very tough to come up with encounters which are both challenging, and don't threaten one-shot-kills constantly.
Hi all,
Super high quality feedback, of course you are right, our APL is +2 or +3. I am sure beefing opponents as suggested will quickly normalize the game.
A few comments: it was suggested that we TPK :). Well, we are actually investing a lot of mail-based story-telling, fleshing out the characters and the world, so we will probably not go for the drastic solution.
One mentioned that synthesist is OP. Well, not in our case, he is least lethal. But he has a cool story.
An unintended side effect is that casters will suffer when we up the CR. for example Summon Monster is a significantly less effective spell, when monsters are +3 CR. also dam pr caster level spells suffer if monsters have full HP.
Thanks everyone, great input!
Good luck, I think if you buff your monsters you'll be fine. Yes, your summon spells will be less powerful, but it sounds like you guys are looking for a challenge and making sure you can shake things up a bit. And even weak summoned monsters are useful as speedbumps--block the way to keep enemies from flanking, etc.
This group is over powered for the base settings of the game. As others have pointed out you should adjust the APL of the group up by about 3. So that would be CR 6-10 monsters. If you do this use the slow XP progression because with the higher CR encounters the party will gain XP much faster.
The only problem I've found in games I've ran like are that some monsters in that range for level 4 party have attacks that can kill a level 4 character out right. You just have to watch out for those monsters.
Like I had a group like that and they fought a Great Cyclops. That was TPK and was totally unfair. There was nothing they could do. The thing saved against their spells, could outrun them, did massive damage and had a high AC. I think this was CR 12 encounter for a APL 9 Party that was level 7. They already took out other CR 12 monster with some difficulty as it should but the Great Cyclops was a killer.
I've been having a similar problem. My group just recently started with pathfinder and after some homebrew type games to let everyone get the basics of the rules changes down I started running rise of the runelords. my issues are twofold because it's an older path so some of the rules have changed since it was released, not the hardest thing to account for, but little things like undead are assumed to be uncrittable still. I also allowed my group to roll for stats instead of using point buy, so they can explore some alternate builds that are less than optimal with limited stats. I've settled into making 2-3 passes thru the material ahead of the game day. First is familiarizing myself with that bit of the story and making changes to account for the new rules, second is upping the power of the baddies to make sure my players are getting enough challenge to be fun and maybe even kill someone off =P, and third is just another pass day of to make sure I remember everything.
Asta
PSY
Unlike some posters here, I don't fault the OP for misunderstanding the necessity of a certain point build versus the mathematics of the CR system. When I first ran PF, coming over from 3.5 since it's release, I had the same misconception that "free rolled" PCs were on par with other such characters at the end of the day. I had played Savage Tide and ran Age of Worms, where the numbers and stats of PCs didn't matter: they were going to die just the same, splat book or not. In Pathfinder, this is very different, and its easy to gloss over the fact that even the CRs in the bestiary are designed for a 15 point build,, not just the APs.
That said, sometimes its all about the design of the monster versus the build of the party, and some monsters will excel against your group. Will-o-Wisps, Shadow Demons, Shadows, Dark Folk all might give this group fits. I think there's a thread discussing overpowered monsters for their CRs, so some of the examples in that (like a lone Phase Spider versus this group) might do well.
Now we know, and we are currently discussing nerf or monster buff.
My recommendation is nerf. If the folks DMing this group don't see the reason why CR4 monsters aren't a threat, they're going to really screw up something key.
While your party's stats and magic items and raw numbers do suggest raising the EL of an encounter is The Answer, you have to be VERY careful about doing so. It's easy to say "hey, here's a CR7 or CR8 monster... it'll be perfect" and use it as written. Then you discover it has an ability or two that a 4th-level PC simply can't address. Having second level spells instead of fourth level spells means you may not be able to counter or remove effects. Also, the saving throw stats of your PCs may not be able to keep up, which can lead to a TPK.
An experienced DM can look at a monster or encounter and judge what abilities are over-the-top and avoid an unexpected total-party-kill.
The verdict is in, quite easy decision: we nerf.
Easy at lvl 4 with Hero Lab....
The decision was made easier by the fact that we take turns in DMing ;-)
Thanks all again :-).
even with a nerf, you are still 6 players + the DM as NPC (that I think he plays in combat as well, doesn't he?
So remember you are +1 APL actually. You need to increase CR by 1 regardless of going 15 point buy and normal wealth by level
Totally agree with Tels. Most players (and even the whole group in my experience) have enjoyed moments where people fall to Suggestion or other mind control (suggestion is the most fun, in my opinion, as it lets the player keep control, but really they're playing for the DM).
You get the element of fear an suspense that isn't there versus NPCs....and nothing beats one player rolling while looking at his friend sadly and saying, "I'm so sorry, bro..."
Situations like that are memorable, tense, and dramatic when done by a group with a good dynamic who enjoys the game. If you have a bunch of entitled neckbeards who only feel good about their lives through their PCs....well....then I'd avoid mind control in your games.
Wow, that is a rather rude response.
That aside honestly both situations described by tels and you involve prior DM/Player discussion and a mutual agreement that adds story to a campaign or having the player play being their own evil twin (which doesn't work because the player will hold back 90% of the time). If you are just doing joe schmoe encounter that challenges the group, mind control usually isn't fun.
I disagree, but apologize if I offended your sensibilities.
My response doesn't seem on topic, so I will spoiler it and just leave it alone after this.
My situation doesn't involve prior discussion, and I haven't played with players who "pull their punches" when mind controlled, as the rest of the group actively tells them not to. Perhaps my wording of "entitled neckbeards" was too strong, but it takes a pretty (insert your own term that won't be offensive) player to pout and take issue with a very common part of the game and, beyond that, a common trope of fantasy literature.
That said, if mind control or the like is badwrongfun for some people, you don't need to use it. But I'd certainly rag on any player I was playing with who threw a fit/pouted/whined/shut down after failing a will save, rather than finding a way to have fun with it. Sometimes peer pressure is ok :)
Enjoy your game, Tandriniel. Sounds like you have a good solid group. You'll really enjoy Pathfinder!
Our group is VERY old, more than 25 years of playing. We just started PF, having played all DnD versions, and a number of other systems. We like to play hard, and we take turns in DMing, so we agreed to make 25 point buy characters, and that the world should be highly magical, meaning wealth by lvl should be capped at x2 table value, as pr. Rules.
Ok fair enough.
Well, we are having great fun, but we are overpowered compared to a monster of our CR.
Yes, you said that already. Double wealth per level and 25 PB combined with players who are good at optimizing means that the characters will be significantly more powerful than standard.
Two barbarians, a strength sorcerer (going towards Dragon Disciple), a Synthesist/rogue, a Summoner, a whitch, and an Oracle. So 6 players and current DMs char possibly as npc when we are all there.
Ah, and you have 6-7 characters, some with pets. This means an enormous increase in party power, you know.
The barbarians obliterate virtually everything that is big and heavy. The melee sorcerer, synthesist, and summoner, deals very effectively with things that are many and weaker. Oracle can heal enormeous amounts, and whitch is very effective crowd controller.
So we have to up the CR to get some resistance, which is making people mumble 'system broken'. People have been smart about their characters, but I would hesitate to call chese or the like, given our low level.
We are having fun, so the real problem is: are we doing something wrong, or is Pathfinder a little bit low on the CR?
What you're doing wrong is making characters with an effective APL of 7 or 8, maybe even 9, and expecting encounters appropriate for a party of APL 5 to be a challenge.
The standard assumption upon which CR is predicated is 15-20 PB, normal wealth per level, and an ordinary degree of optimization. The CRB method of scaling APL with additional characters also kinda assumes that 6 is the most people you'd have in a party. In reality, because of the additional actions that new characters get, it should be +1 APL for every additional character above 5, simply because of how much more effective the parties become.
Just up the CRs of your encounters and if that would result in leveling up too fast, switch to the medium or slow advancement track if necessary.
I agree with everything that have been said, just one more thing: you guys play with a party which 1) is composed by more members than what the system has in mind 2) is composed by optimized characters 3) has access to double the wealth it should have (at low level this is even more relevant) 4) composed by member with higher than normal stats. If you don't play like this to obliterate everything with a CR even remotely clore to your level, why do you play like ...Well we know that now :-).
We didn't realize the consequenses of our choices beforehand, +3 APL is huge.
Now we know, and we are currently discussing nerf or monster buf. I am for nerfing, going to normal wealth and 15 point buy. Would still leave us at lvl +1 with numbers, but we can up the CR with more mobs, favouring action economy on mobs side, as suggested.
Please note we thought stupidly that APL was the same, more or less, that 15 or 25 point buy was less significant, etc.
Going back to normal wealth is the easiest change, you really should do that.
Using lower point buy is another right choice: it's not really necessary to go back to 15 pb imho. If you use a rule limiting dump stats (for example we play with no negative stats) so to avoid extreme optimization, 20 pb will serve you fine too.As for the large party, I hate parties that large, but there is not much you can do: I would just avoid classes with pets but mostly for time-related reasons.
If you do all this, CRs level+2 should be fine for the average encounter, +3 for a bit more spice.
...My situation doesn't involve prior discussion, and I haven't played with players who "pull their punches" when mind controlled, as the rest of the group actively tells them not to... That said, if mind control or the like is badwrongfun for some people, you don't need to use it. But I'd certainly rag on any player I was playing with who threw a fit/pouted/whined/shut down after failing a will save, rather than finding a way to have fun with it....
I think part of the issue is how the GM handles mind controlled. I have seen some GM's completely take over so the player literally has absolutely nothing to do unless/until the duration runs out or the other PC's figure out how to get rid of the condition. I once had almost 2 complete game nights in a row just sitting there watching other people play. There wasn't a whole lot I could do to 'finding a way to have fun with it.' I think that is a poor way for the GM to handle the situation, but it happens.
...My situation doesn't involve prior discussion, and I haven't played with players who "pull their punches" when mind controlled, as the rest of the group actively tells them not to... That said, if mind control or the like is badwrongfun for some people, you don't need to use it. But I'd certainly rag on any player I was playing with who threw a fit/pouted/whined/shut down after failing a will save, rather than finding a way to have fun with it....I think part of the issue is how the GM handles mind controlled. I have seen some GM's completely take over so the player literally has absolutely nothing to do unless/until the duration runs out or the other PC's figure out how to get rid of the condition. I once had almost 2 complete game nights in a row just sitting there watching other people play. There wasn't a whole lot I could do to 'finding a way to have fun with it.' I think that is a poor way for the GM to handle the situation, but it happens.
Fair enough. Then I should have included "overbearing, tyrannical neckbeard GMs" in my original post : p
You don't have to take a character's sheet and tell them to sit in the corner until they get a better Will save. You also don't have to be a baby if you fail a Will save...just enjoy justifiably homiciding your team-mates and collaborating with the GM to create some tension and terror.
One big singile monster is wrong idea. It make caster worthless they make the save to offeen. A few mid size and many smaller ones. You have to chalenge them on more than one front and eat up the action advanage that they have on you 4 orges and 6 worgs sounds good. Add class level to thing a Rageing Orge barbians 2 is CR 4 and 3 is CR 7 with 4 CR 2 worgs is CR 8 fight. about right.