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During one of my previous encounters, labled as a hard one, I failed with my plan to soften up my group's paladin by sending his 7th level husk against few large water elementals and water mephits in a sinkig ship.
I desgined the encouter so that lightly armored characters could shine more than usual.
The paladin despite going up against touch spells, non-evil enemies in an greatly unfavourable terrain he just steamrolled what should be impossible for him to do alone and he did this solely with the use of Hero's defiance.
How do I deal with this spell? Is there any errata which limits its use or raises its cost because I can't imagine paizo letting it be this cheese O_o
During one of my previous encounters, labled as a hard one, I failed with my plan to soften up my group's paladin by sending his 7th level husk against few large water elementals and water mephits in a sinkig ship.
I desgined the encouter so that lightly armored characters could shine more than usual.
The paladin despite going up against touch spells, non-evil enemies in an greatly unfavourable terrain he just steamrolled what should be impossible for him to do alone and he did this solely with the use of Hero's defiance.
How do I deal with this spell? Is there any errata which limits its use or raises its cost because I can't imagine paizo letting it be this cheese O_o
I don't see the problem? The only thing this spell does is allow you to use Lay Hands on yourself once as an immediate action with an additional D6 on the healing. At most at level 7 assuming a 20-27 Charisma he can have three of these first level spells (barring crazy silly stats). I don't see where his beaing able to heal himself as an immediate action would have lead to him 'steamrolling' the encounter by himself. It may have assured his survival but Paladins are damn hard to kill anyways.
Yeah, how is a character who is barely staying alive (Hero's defiance can only be used when he would otherwise be dropped to 0 or fewer hit points) be considered to be steam-rolling the encounter?
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The most level 1 spells per day that he could have that I count is 4 plus the 1 from a high CHA, maybe 2 extra if he has 20+ CHA, and maybe a Pearl of Power.
Don't forget too, that being smacked around in combat may require a caster check to even pull this off.
Also, Pally's are in fact Heros, and supposed to be able to every once in a while do the impossible. Its why they are so powerful.
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How exactly was he using the spell to steamroll everything?
Well I traped him under the deck with some mephits, the plan was to force him into a FULL defense until the party can back him up with a pincer attack on the foes but he went full offense turning the celestial spirit and slashing left and right. He was crushed by the elementals hailed with acid arrows by the Mephits and still slashed his way upwards due to constant usage of hero defiance. I think he got additional 50 HP due to that spell. Oh and thanks a lot with the immediate action I didn't realize that flaw I thought as long as you have spells you can regenerate.
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If you just want to kill him, you can. You are the DM. If your PCs work hard to stay alive, and do, then that's just them planning well. I have a hard time seeing staying alive as game-breaking. There are other ways to have characters shine, besides killing the other PC.
Up to this point I never intended to kill anyone, I just wanted to give a challenging encounter which would show the paladin that heavy armor and high AC is not always the way to go and gratify the fighter and the rogue for choosing this option.
I really tthought that a heavy armored combatant on a unstable ship with water above his knees, against foes he knew that he wouldn't be able to fight as effective as he did with the other ones, without the help of his teammates, would sit tight and try to minimize the damage but it turned out otherwise.
Just really how many times 1 character destroys an encounter so much above his lvl with really nasty hazards nonetheless. I really worked hard for this encounter choosing means to get under his heavy armor and scare the living hell out of him but NO, he had no intentions to wait for the rescue team.
It sounds to me like you have a personal problem with the player, and how he plays the game. No amount of clever encounters are going to solve this. If you feel like he is marginalizing the other players, you should talk to him and see if you can work out a way he can work more cooperatively with the other players, instead of trying to design encounters in which you expect him to sit on the side-lines and wait for help.
I really tthought that a heavy armored combatant on a unstable ship with water above his knees, against foes he knew that he wouldn't be able to fight as effective as he did with the other ones, without the help of his teammates, would sit tight and try to minimize the damage but it turned out otherwise.
The thing about plans like this, is that you have to know the player and the character pretty well. Otherwise it's "The plan never survives the PC's".
Did the water elementals try using their Vortex ability?
It sounds to me like you have a personal problem with the player, and how he plays the game. No amount of clever encounters are going to solve this. If you feel like he is marginalizing the other players, you should talk to him and see if you can work out a way he can work more cooperatively with the other players, instead of trying to design encounters in which you expect him to sit on the side-lines and wait for help.
This. ^^
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I really tthought that a heavy armored combatant on a unstable ship with water above his knees, against foes he knew that he wouldn't be able to fight as effective as he did with the other ones, without the help of his teammates, would sit tight and try to minimize the damage but it turned out otherwise.The thing about plans like this, is that you have to know the player and the character pretty well. Otherwise it's "The plan never survives the PC's".
Did the water elementals try using their Vortex ability?
Isnt vortex used only when fully submerged?
Im designing a vodoo cave with a few Shadows and a greater shadow which will hunt the PCs for profaning his resting place but I doubt this will do anything. I rarely saw him doing less than 20 DMG per hit without Smite. 2 atacks of oportunities against the flyby attack of the greater shadow and he is done for.
Why do you want to kill him so badly? I don't think about killing my players when I DM, I think about giving them a hard time. If they get killed, it's not because I'm being spiteful. It's either just tough luck, or stupid decisions on their part. Also, do NOT put Shadows in their way if they don't have magic weapons. I grew to despise a certain part of one Adventure Path for putting Shadows at us way too early.
He is on a boat with a heavy armor? Why don't make him swim? With the average of -6,-7 armor check penality, just swimming could be his end. Worst if he has a medium or heavy load.(-3 or -6)
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You need to understand the game better in order to challenge him. PCs often have very good stats and abilities in a wide variety of areas, and what you think is high DC or challenging is probably not the case.
You'll want to use difficult terrain + monsters with reach and no problems with difficult terrain. If they up, use the AoO to trip. There's lots of possibilities, just think and adapt.
Up to this point I never intended to kill anyone, I just wanted to give a challenging encounter which would show the paladin that heavy armor and high AC is not always the way to go and gratify the fighter and the rogue for choosing this option.
I really thought that a heavy armored combatant on a unstable ship with water above his knees, against foes he knew that he wouldn't be able to fight as effective as he did with the other ones, without the help of his teammates, would sit tight and try to minimize the damage but it turned out otherwise.
Just really how many times 1 character destroys an encounter so much above his lvl with really nasty hazards nonetheless. I really worked hard for this encounter choosing means to get under his heavy armor and scare the living hell out of him but NO, he had no intentions to wait for the rescue team.
Actually when you are up front heavy armor is the way to go barring corner cases, and there is not much anyone can do about those.
Even when a pally is not smiting they still do good damage if built well. Offense is also stronger the defense so waiting would most likely be a bad idea, and the player probably knows that. Every bad guy he kills is a bad guy that is not attacking him.|
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Why do you want to kill him so badly? I don't think about killing my players when I DM, I think about giving them a hard time. If they get killed, it's not because I'm being spiteful. It's either just tough luck, or stupid decisions on their part. Also, do NOT put Shadows in their way if they don't have magic weapons. I grew to despise a certain part of one Adventure Path for putting Shadows at us way too early.
Oh The certainly have magical gear.
The paladin eg.
Elven Curved Blade +2
Mithril Full Plate +3
Tiara of Alluring Charisma +4
Belt of Giants Strenght +4
The only 3 examples when the paladin was dumb struck and didn't singlehandedly win the encounter was during "The godsmouth heresy" module when the party was fighting the golem and the final boss, and even then the final boss got lucky with the spear. The final one was when I made a mistake with the encounter and set 5 4th level PC against an ettin and two 1st level warriors. It was a massacre.
My DM agenda is to have for each and every one PC at least one cool moment in the adventure and this paladin is just so strong that if you aren't using a clever build yourself you will be outmatched in most cases.
Do the other players optimize as well?
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Do the other players optimize as well?
Yes but they don't know much about the game and prefer a more simplistic aproach to their characters.
And to all of you I don't intent to KILL any of my players, I only used the word kill as a more direct manner of saying that I want him to stop rely on tactics - "I do a lot of damage and go forward". To make him think crush his sense of security
Doing damage is a good tactic for the game though, and fighting on defensive is normally a bad one.
As long as the other player makes superior builds this will happen. Having one big(powerful) monster that is mostly for him might work. The rest of the party can deal with lesser threats.
Oh The certainly have magical gear.The paladin eg.
Elven Curved Blade +2
Mithril Full Plate +3
Tiara of Alluring Charisma +4
Belt of Giants Strenght +4
That is a lot of treasure for a 7th level character!! He is almost 2 - 3 times the target value amount (23.5K for 7th, 33K for 8th). He has ~ 60K.
Perhaps this is the problem or does everyone have this much?
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To help the younger players I suggested taking for most of them equipment from the pregens presented in the modules. They are now at 8th but Ive seen a barbarian having a weapon +4 on 7th..
The problem why the paladin has so mcuh gold is that at 4th level I nearly TPKed the whole party with an Ettin and the paladin was the only character left. No he didnt spend the gold to ressurect his companions.
What is a troll magi? Is it like an Ogre mage?
The expend spell is a 7th level spell. Throwing a 13th level caster against a level 7 party is a TPK waiting to happen, and there is almost impossible to hide the coddling/fudging needed to pull it off, without them picking up on it.
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once again i read about poor dming. i dont mean to be rude (or maybe i do a little) could u please tell us about your other party members. maybe the better way of adressing this is by putting the group up against something else. i doubt a paladin is going to do much good against blink dogs. he cant catch them and he doesnt have range unless you have a bow wielding paladin (just so you know this is a POWERFUL build). if you have a scouting type characters should be allowed to scout. casters should led into doing magical things. and tanks should tank. if your tank can deal out damage and heal himself thats GREAT that means the rogue in your party can use acrobatics to get flanking and shine in damage. make your characters do some skill checks. survival acrobatics climb swim all of these have there time to be used. dont just use perception as i have seen too many dms do in the past.
here is a few solid ideas to make your paladin feel a bit smaller without killing him.
#1 the bbeg is bigger and stronger than him. with improved grab and pounce. have it be a dire animal of some kind neutral means no smite. grappled means no using his big sword. make sure the monster has dr 5/whatever now the paladin serves the purpose of being the tank while not being the primary damage dealer. however your rogue will feel like a golden god in this situation.
#2 the bbeg kicks over a cauldron that spills forth onto the floor covering the surrounding area with a slick slime that requires acrobatics checks or you fall. even if you make the acrobatics check you move at half speed and cannot charge. again rogues say SWEET rangers are fine and even your casters will likely be fine with this.
now a few things to remember.
paladins will make your saves, paladins can and will take all your hits, the bigger and badder your boss the stronger your pally will be. he is immune to almost everything, wtf pallys can do everything.
To help the younger players I suggested taking for most of them equipment from the pregens presented in the modules. They are now at 8th but Ive seen a barbarian having a weapon +4 on 7th..
The problem why the paladin has so mcuh gold is that at 4th level I nearly TPKed the whole party with an Ettin and the paladin was the only character left. No he didnt spend the gold to ressurect his companions.
Doesn't sound very much like a paladin to me....
Does he have double the wealth of all the other players?
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How do you kill a hero's defiance paladin?The same way you kill any other character. ;)
Negative levels and Con damage.
Despite asking how to kill the paladin, that isn't really your goal, right? The paladin, through an optimized build and an over-abundance of magic items, always outshines the rest of the party and you want to even that out. Right?
A few months ago a player, who had been pulled away from my game due to job schedule, returned. Usually I start new characters slightly below party level, but since Will was returning, I did not apply that penalty to his new character. He built an 10th-level paladin optimized as a frontline killing machine. That was not what the party needed; in fact, the limitations of a heavy-armor paladin would limit the party more.
Five Saturday games sessions later, two players had to miss the game that day. Fortunately, the game session would begin with roleplaying details of turning over some bad guys defeated in the last session to the city guard, and I could claim their characters were handling that while the other players had fun. Then I saw that circumstances gave me an opportunity to demonstrate to Will that his paladin had weaknesses.
One evil kobold barbarian decided to resist arrest, overran the third-level town guard beside her, and ran as fast as she could. Which was not fast, because she was fatigued from dropping out of rage when she surrendered, and could only hustle for 80 feet per round. The paladin ran after her, but he was in heavy armor and could run for only 60 feet per round.
In the paladin's backstory, he had been serving his order in that particular city for over a year. Thus, I declared that the citizens of the city had great respect for the paladin. Upon seeing their paladin chasing a kobold, some heroic townsfolk would help.
"Invent a fourth-level character who would try to stop the kobold," I told another character. "Ranger with a wolf companion," she declared. The wolf tripped the kobold, the kobold tried to fight the wolf, the paladin caught up, the kobold ran away, the paladin healed the wolf, and paladin, ranger, and wolf gave chase.
I gave another player an opportunity to stop the paladin. "Retired fighter who runs a sausage stand," he said. Another slowdown, another short fight, and a new chase. Finally, the kobold barbarian recovered from fatigue and burst into full speed, and I declared that the rest of the party caught up.
The paladin's player corrected the mobility limitations of his character. And since 11th level the paladin has been generous about sharing Aura of Justice to buff his allies. I learned to accept that no Big Bad Evil Guy will survive past two rounds of combat, because the party does work together.
Paladins are combat characters. Trying to kill your paladin in combat plays to his strength and gives him more chances to shine. Throw some sneaking or some detective work or something else skill-based into the game. If the paladin lacks a mount, how about having to race cross-country to rescue a beseiged outpost?
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wow so you showed your paladin that he cant run fast. i would have assumed his speed on his character sheet would have told him that. i would have said oh no a lawful neutral monk comes up on you who has been hired to teach you a lesson. he oppens up with a charging trip. follows up with a disarm off the ao. now your paladin is prone and has no weapon. he may spend a move action to pick up his weapon and attack from prone or take both actions to get his weapon and stand up. either way next round disarm and grapple. give the monk a potion of stone skin or a magic item that allows him to have stoneskin once per day. then enjoy wrecking the paladin. this is not a killer this guy could even finish your paladin off with subdual damage or simply pin him and attempt to tie him up.
if all your trying to do is humble him that is easy use swallow whole from any appropriate monster. then all of a sudden he is stuck with no way to do damage.
so in short cmb monksih type cahracter trip disarm grapple
or any monster with swallow whole
make sure its not an evil creature.
every character has a weakness and its freaking hilarious the only one the above mentioned was a run speed.
and if you want combat to last longer do as i do enlist blink dogs. they are so hilarious. and since they are intelligent give them a class level or two and raise there cr accordingly. give them amulets of mighty fists with disruptive on them. mess with the casters. use ghosts that move through the floor to get around party members, use flying creatures with umd and scrolls of spell x. introduce the paladin to a swarm and ask him what he thinks. there are tons of ways to cahllenge a party and often times the answer is not bigger badder monsters its better monster choices. a pit trap opens up everyone makea reflex save. the pit contains an ooze of some kind. if you allow 3.5 there are a ton of annoying monsters in tehre also. or as mentioned above. paladins are great. antipaladins should never be allowed to be played by a player because they make paladins cry.
wow so you showed your paladin that he cant run fast. i would have assumed his speed on his character sheet would have told him that. i would have said oh no a lawful neutral monk comes up on you who has been hired to teach you a lesson. he oppens up with a charging trip. follows up with a disarm off the ao. now your paladin is prone and has no weapon. he may spend a move action to pick up his weapon and attack from prone or take both actions to get his weapon and stand up. either way next round disarm and grapple. give the monk a potion of stone skin or a magic item that allows him to have stoneskin once per day. then enjoy wrecking the paladin. this is not a killer this guy could even finish your paladin off with subdual damage or simply pin him and attempt to tie him up.
if all your trying to do is humble him that is easy use swallow whole from any appropriate monster. then all of a sudden he is stuck with no way to do damage.
so in short cmb monksih type cahracter trip disarm grapple
or any monster with swallow whole
make sure its not an evil creature.
every character has a weakness and its freaking hilarious the only one the above mentioned was a run speed.
Run speed was the real-game example I had. The paladin's player knew that his character moved slowly, but he had not realized that it would matter for the adventures I ran. The player did learn a lesson. (For humbling the paladin I also have the time that a Stone Giant mercenary with the Shield Slam feat knocked him into the privy of a tavern, but that could have happened to anyone. The paladin did not fall into the toilet.) Imaginary scenarios sound good on paper but the characters might react differently in an actual game.
For example, in the lawful neutral monk scenario, the monk charges and trips the paladin. The other melee fighters in the party rush up and surround the monk, and the spellcasters start casting spells at him. The monk yells that he has been hired to teach the paladin a lesson in humility and won't really hurt the fellow. The paladin does not believe him, does not spend a move action for a fast Detect Evil, but instead calls a Smite Evil on the monk, takes a full attack at him (-4 to hit from prone but +2 from flanking and the paladin expected more pluses from the smite), and hits enough to realize that he is not getting the smite damage. The paladin says, okay you aren't evil, but this has become a real fight and if you don't surrender now, we will finish it. The monk surrenders. The party interrogates him about the mysterious figure who hired him and insists on an adventure to track down the figure.
Or the monk attacks the paladin when he is alone, and the party finds the unconscious paladin. They heal him and he explains that a monk tripped him, disarmed him, and beat him unconscious with nonlethal damage. The party decides that a very high level monk has something against the entire party and insists on an adventure to track down the monk.
Even if the scenario goes perfectly, does humbling the paladin teach the paladin's player that he is hogging the limelight? It looks more like it puts the paladin in center stage.
Grandmikus designed a combat situation in which two of the paladin's main abilities--heavy armor and Smite Evil--would not help. This was so that the paladin would be on an even footing with the other player characters. He did not want to kill the paladin; instead, he hoped that all characters would get their share of the limelight. Instead, the paladin grandstanded the fight by refusing to back down, and even managed to survive his foolhardy tactics due to Hero's Defiance. Grandmikus could raise the ante by creating a fight even more inbalanced against the paladin, but in that case he might succeed in killing the paladin. Which would solve the problem of the paladin having excessive magic items: either the player creates a new character with balanced wealth or the other characters sell the paladin's magic items to get him resurrected--but would create the problem of the GM showing character-killing bias.
The problem why the paladin has so much gold is that at 4th level I nearly TPKed the whole party with an Ettin and the paladin was the only character left. No he didn't spend the gold to resurrect his companions.
I presume that the paladin did not drag the bodies back to town for burial either. Given this background, the monk story has potential. The monk was not hired to teach the paladin a lesson. The monk is the brother of one of the characters killed by the ettin and blames the paladin for his brother's death. Or rather, for his brother remaining dead. The paladin could have spent 5450gp for a Raise Dead. At the very least, the dead brother's fair share of the treasure could have paid for a burial and gravestone so that the body could have been exhumed for a Resurrection. By the time the monk learned of his brother's death, scavengers had totally eliminated the body and nothing short of True Resurrection will bring the dead brother back. The monk is angry at the paladin for that and wants to humble him in revenge. The monk beats up the paladin whenever he catches the paladin alone and runs away whenever the fight turns against him. The party has to solve the mystery of the monk, which the paladin cannot manage alone.
Oh The certainly have magical gear.
The paladin eg.
Elven Curved Blade +2
Mithril Full Plate +3
Tiara of Alluring Charisma +4
Belt of Giants Strenght +4
Have a thief steal some of his stuff (Like the tiara and the belt) and donate it to the church of Sarenrae (they obviously won't know it's stolen) to assist in their struggle with the Rough Beast, Rovagug. Have him a few levels later (at a more appropriate level) encounter a paladin on the road wearing his stuff. If he wants it back, he must perform a service for the church. Or they could have a friendly duel for the stuff. But the other paladin gets to wear the items during the fight and has a remarkably similar build to your game's pally, complete with Hero's Defiance prepared a few times.
I also vote for pulling him aside and talking with him about what's bothering you. Usually the best course, I find.
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how does he strike the monk. weapons gone. is he punching does he have ius?? if not all he van do is subdual and with the dr i suggested still not much damage. it will prove to the pally he needs his party. if he rushed off on his own he would run into this guy who has been waiting for his chance. if he is with his party just wait. there will be a time. but really you should just be able to make it so he needs the others help.
Something to consider, the Ray of Exhaustion spell applies the Fatigued condition on a successful save. If they are already Fatigued, they are automatically Exhausted. Combine that with difficult terrain and an ranged attacker that moves and the paladin will be left behind. A move action gets him 5 feet, and a double move 10 feet.
To help the younger players I suggested taking for most of them equipment from the pregens presented in the modules. They are now at 8th but Ive seen a barbarian having a weapon +4 on 7th..
The problem why the paladin has so mcuh gold is that at 4th level I nearly TPKed the whole party with an Ettin and the paladin was the only character left. No he didnt spend the gold to ressurect his companions.
The solution for this, is that dead characters must be buried with their stuff. New characters are brought in with your guidelines on the WBL table (you can adjust for the type of game you want). We had a similar problem in a campaign with a Rogue who had a Ring of Invisibility and basically never took part in the encounters, but watched everyone die and stole it all from the monster later. By 9th level he had something like 300,000 gp worth of stuff and was retired because of it.
how does he strike the monk. weapons gone. is he punching does he have ius?? if not all he van do is subdual and with the dr i suggested still not much damage. it will prove to the pally he needs his party. if he rushed off on his own he would run into this guy who has been waiting for his chance. if he is with his party just wait. there will be a time. but really you should just be able to make it so he needs the others help.
How did the monk steal the paladin's weapons on the same turn that he charged and tripped the paladin? You said, "follows up with a disarm off the ao." I thought you meant "AoO" by "ao", but the monk would get an attack of opportunity only if the paladin stood up or crawled away. The paladin could attack prone instead. And if he is disarmed, he could draw another weapon: most 7th-level characters with high strength carry a spare. And that high strength from the Belt of Giant's Strength +4 gives the paladin a good CMD against trips and disarms.
Will beating up the paladin for no reason that the paladin knows make the game better, even if the paladin learns that he needs his party? Grandmikus said, "My DM agenda is to have for each and every one PC at least one cool moment in the adventure." The paladin can dominate every combat even with the party always within 30 feet of him.
One direct way to tone down the paladin's glory-stealing would be to re-balance the wealth in the party. Talk to the paladin's player, point out that he is hogging the attention, and ask that his paladin generously give up his shares of the treasure until everyone is equally equipped. Or follow Nakteo's suggestion of a thief. Or have a rival order of paladins hire the party for a quest and pay only the non-paladin party members because a paladin is supposed to be above greed and the paladin is obviously already well equipped. Or follow the monk-avenging-his-dead-brother story to make the paladin feel shame over claiming his dead companions' share of the Ettin's treasure.
You could always try energy draining. Enervation is a ranged touch attack, there is no save, and it is not removed by hit point draining spells.
Ability damage is another method which bypasses hit point healing entirely, although unlike energy drain it usually allows a save to avoid it immediately (there are some exceptions, such as shadows).
the spell isn't the problem it's the loh.
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how does he strike the monk. weapons gone. is he punching does he have ius?? if not all he van do is subdual and with the dr i suggested still not much damage. it will prove to the pally he needs his party. if he rushed off on his own he would run into this guy who has been waiting for his chance. if he is with his party just wait. there will be a time. but really you should just be able to make it so he needs the others help.
How did the monk steal the paladin's weapons on the same turn that he charged and tripped the paladin? You said, "follows up with a disarm off the ao." I thought you meant "AoO" by "ao", but the monk would get an attack of opportunity only if the paladin stood up or crawled away. The paladin could attack prone instead. And if he is disarmed, he could draw another weapon: most 7th-level characters with high strength carry a spare. And that high strength from the Belt of Giant's Strength +4 gives the paladin a good CMD against trips and disarms.
Will beating up the paladin for no reason that the paladin knows make the game better, even if the paladin learns that he needs his party? Grandmikus said, "My DM agenda is to have for each and every one PC at least one cool moment in the adventure." The paladin can dominate every combat even with the party always within 30 feet of him.
One direct way to tone down the paladin's glory-stealing would be to re-balance the wealth in the party. Talk to the paladin's player, point out that he is hogging the attention, and ask that his paladin generously give up his shares of the treasure until everyone is equally equipped. Or follow Nakteo's suggestion of a thief. Or have a rival order of paladins hire the party for a quest and pay only the non-paladin party members because a paladin is supposed to be above greed and the paladin is obviously already well equipped. Or follow the monk-avenging-his-dead-brother story to make the paladin feel shame over claiming his dead companions' share of the Ettin's treasure.
oh poor poor people. greater trip allows you to take an AoO when you successfully trip someone.
Dragons solve everything.
Pi?
Dragons solve everything.Pi?
to the last digit ...its a common dragon pasttime to recite Pi
We don't need this here.