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Talking to the players outside of the game (As mentioned 2- times above) is, obviously, the best thing.Tell them that they are lessening the fun for the other players (Their friends, presumably), including you. If they don't seem to care, well... perhaps it is time to find new players.
In Game suggestions/Ideas
Chaotic Evil random killers, eh? You know who hates this just as much/more than a Paladin? Lawful Evil organizations whose 'business' they are disrupting. Say that one of those poor random NPC victims was actually carrying information meant for a high-ranking Chelaxian Spy, Information that is key to a very important operation, run by a powerful Devil. Just how is this Infernal Being going to react? Not well, I can assure you... Likewise, perhaps said victim was the target of a famous/prominent Assassin, one who was made to lose face because some random idiot murdered his 'mark'. Either way, you have an In-Game (And justified) reason for a threat that targets JUST the responsible person.
These foes could even approach the other party members/state they are not the subject of the retribution, and it would be best if they stayed out of this unfortunate issue... That would, at least, give the innocent PCs a chance to refrain from the altercation.
They want adventure and loot? Solo-time? Sure,, Traps, but not just deadly ones: traps that would require more than one person to disarm/escape from: Pit traps with weighted covers...Impossible to escape from below, but a simple matter with someone outside providing counter-weight/pulling a level/hitting the 'release'. This might show them the error of their ways, and that teamwork always works best.
And, if that fails...
Loot: A magical sword/dagger/staff/whatever they like. With a hollow gem in it's setting...containing a pretty little firefly/bug...That is a actually a Polymorphed Pugwampis.
>:D
-Uriel
I appreciate all the input from everyone.
These guys are pretty reasonable OOC, and its because I spoke to them they toned down the looting/killing NPC's as they had occasionally tried to kill something they thought they could handle (and I purposefully designed it to work that way), only to find it was much more of an issue than they thought. So in essence they're more guarded now and dont just assume what they see is what they get.
They are very mercenary in their attitudes, when other players may go along with a quest knowing the reward may be found along the way or in some non-monetary form, they tend to lose interest - but even then I use the 'carrot and stick' approach, and plug something in that will get their attention and compliance.
As for their alignments, thats a sore issue for them, they prefer Chaotic Evil because it 'suits their style'. And as for level dipping into a bunch of classes, I have all but banned the old 3.5 books for now because both players have a tendancy to play the EXACT same character in every campaign with some minor tweaks.
(A classic example of this power gaming was one character who was a Elf Wizard/Cleric/Rogue who took the UR PRIEST prestige class from the Book Of Vile Darkness that allowed them to 'steal' divine spells from any god and cast them themselves, including all the 'holy' spells from the Book Of Exalted Deeds which were highly effective against evil opponents.
The other character was a Druid/Rogue that discovered the 'you deal sneak attack with ALL natural weapons' exception that meant he shapeshifted into anything that had several natural attacks and had all kinds of buffs added. That and he dipped into Wizard too just for extra defensive and buff spells for himself.)
So in a nutshell, I prevented them from using 3.5 books for now. But as cornerstones of the group (they tend to provide the gaming venues on a weekend by weekend basis) they have always played together in this competitive way (never trying to kill each other funnily enough). The other players tolerate them, but any high level 'babysitters' (such as NPC Paladins) and such just become annoying to them, as the rest of the group have a tendancy to dislike having NPCs tagging along period, saying it 'puts a drain on their resources' since they cant count on the other players help.
They so far havent killed any of the other players, but the threats are constant (the other players think its a joke), and they feel safe in numbers. They have made it clear if push came to shove they would sell out the Chaotic Evil characters if an opportunity arose, but theres alot of friction and debate about what this would do not to the characters but the players relationships as well, as these 'power gamers' are not ones to take things against their characters likely.
A classic method these guys play with is this...
1.) When fight begins, they are NEVER at the front and NEVER really at the back, always in the middle.
2.) They ALWAYS look for an escape plan anytime a fight happens, before even the first dice is rolled.
3.) First chance they get to learn 'Fly' or even 'Levitate' thats all they do to get out of harms reach, if that doesnt work then its 'Invisibility' and/or a bunch of buffs (wasting several rounds in the process)
4.) If ANY other party member goes down, even if they have a chance of winning still, they will ALWAYS take the escape plan and flee, often leaving their party short and getting more of them killed.
5.) They tend to contribute little to actual fights, after firing one arrow or hefting one alchemists fire, they sit back and fight defensively or cast buffs. Saying 'they contributed to the fight' and as such as also eligable for a fair share of the XP and treasure. They tend to end most adventures without using any really major spells or abilities they could bring to the fight, they do bare minimum.
6.) They have a tendancy to go OMG to most monsters they are aware of the group has no idea what it is, and subtly use metagame knowledge to either win the fight or prematurely take off and leave the rest to their fate. (Classic example was a fight against a Beblith, they knew it grabbed and destroyed items as it fights and they made damn sure to stay away from it while the rest of the group found out the hard way.) They would ALWAYS make Knowledge rolls to ensure their 'metagaming' was valid, that their characters knowing these risks would take appropiate action - this to me is a very grey area. I DONT let them see the Pathfinder Bestiary 1, 2 or 3 that way they have NO idea what a Froghemoth is and so forth, but I know they will somehow get a hold of the materials online or something and read them cover to cover, ruining what little surprise I could throw at them.
A classic example of this was one player encountering a Basilisk, they automatically knew the saving DC of the Petrification off the top of their head, rolled the dice (rolled very low) and declared a pass since it was enough to beat the textbook DC. I happened to give the Basalisk 'Ability Focus' as a feat and he failed his save, once I told him he failed he promptly tore up his sheet and stopped gaming with us for a while (very childish). But he since learned his lesson when he returned and hasnt repeated that nonsense since.
I have spoken with them at length about how their style of play affects the adventures I try to run, so far they have agreed to restrain themselves a little more, but they say being forced to play anything else other than what they want means they'd rather not play at all, which is a huge bummer for the group.
You just need to stick to your guns, and they need to stop trying to "beat the game".
It is good that they are listening though.
To defeat their item greed, make all powerful weapons holy.
Your description of these guys makes them sound like supreme jerks. If I were a player in this group, I would leave the game, because anyone who doesn't contribute to the fight in a real way, yet insists they deserve all the best loot to the detriment of the rest of the characters are just dead weight. If I were a wizard or sorcerer, I would start each combat by casting resilient sphere on those two, because it seems like they are more likely to get the rest of the party killed than to contribute to success. I'm surprised none of the other players have quit by now.
I tried to stop at "these guys play CE characters," then noticed the part below it where you mention the rest of the players "handle these guys well." That was enough for me.
Look here. Nobody should have to "handle" these guys at all.
You, nor the other players, are not their parents, babysitters, councilors, therapists, nor anybody else who would have an obligation to "handle" them, "deal" with them, "put up" with them, or in any other way, tolerate their selfish behavior. And selfish behavior is selfish behavior, no matter whether it is because "they want to not have to rely on anybody else," they like to min-max, they enjoy playing evil characters, or they have to be "handled" by anyone else.
This is all.
Like I said- D&D is a Game. Games are supposed to be FUN- for everyone which includes the DM and those other guys. Just tell them to stop for that reason. Be nice, talk to them like adults. Yes, it will cramp “their style” but you’re not having fun and the other three guys aren’t having fun either. So, they have to adapt. One thing you can do is invite them here.
How old are these guys anyway?
I would not put up with players who behaved this way even if, especially if they were my friends.
My only message to them would be "grow up dudes."
Why are you allowing evil characters in your game?
Wander off on their own you say? Build a high-level party using PC rules, make the party consist of 3 or 4 individuals, and be a few levels higher than your group. Have this "party of adventurers" feature a paladin, one high enough to have dispel magic at least, which is more than high enough to afford celestial armor and have the party slap around whichever one decides to wander too far from the party. Leave whoever it is a way to escape the first time, but if they split again, drop the hammer on them.
YOU DO NOT BREAK THE CARDINAL RULE OF ADVENTURING. EVER.
That's just my opinion though.
As for their alignments, thats a sore issue for them, they prefer Chaotic Evil because it 'suits their style'. And as for level dipping into a bunch of classes, I have all but banned the old 3.5 books for now because both players have a tendancy to play the EXACT same character in every campaign with some minor tweaks.
I would tell them that this isn't open for discussion if they want you to GM. Their play style is interfering with your GMing and the other players. It's not working therefore something needs to give. Since the rest of the group isn't going to be able to turn on their fun switch, these two players need to turn off the evil switch.
I have spoken with them at length about how their style of play affects the adventures I try to run, so far they have agreed to restrain themselves a little more, but they say being forced to play anything else other than what they want means they'd rather not play at all, which is a huge bummer for the group.
I would find another venue or let them know that you are not willing to GM for them at this time. It's not fun for you. Their actions are not only affecting the other players, but they are affecting the GM. Without a GM, they won't have much of a game.
You don't have a problem with the characters. You have a problem with the players. Make it clear that that style of playing will not happen in the game you are running- and make it an ultimatum if you need to.
It is better to play with fewer players than with bad players.
In addition to all the useful advice given by the other commenters I suggest you give the defective players computer RPG style side quests:
"Go collect 30 wolf pelts. Here are stats for the wolves, roll some dice and tell me when you're done."
In general you might want to ban level dipping as well.
... A classic example of this was one player encountering a Basilisk, they automatically knew the saving DC of the Petrification off the top of their head, rolled the dice (rolled very low) and declared a pass since it was enough to beat the textbook DC....
Something I have done with that kind of player is change the name and/or description of monsters.
A few years ago my players encountered a band of Dorguns. I described them as big (but still medium sized) humanoids with bumpy skin that looks kinda like a toad. But with short sparse bristly brown hair all over their bodies.
Stats and behavior was exactly like Gnolls. So I didn't have the trouble of making up a whole new race (just a description and name). But they thought it was new, so were much more careful for a long time.
Also remember, there are all kinds of templates that can be added to most any creature. Or even just standard class levels. A covey of bugbears that all have 6 level of witch will give most groups a surprise.
Stop using ANY 3.5 material, the druid/rogue in particular isn't anything OP in pathfinder.
A classic example of this was one player encountering a Basilisk, they automatically knew the saving DC of the Petrification off the top of their head, rolled the dice (rolled very low) and declared a pass since it was enough to beat the textbook DC. I happened to give the Basalisk 'Ability Focus' as a feat and he failed his save, once I told him he failed he promptly tore up his sheet and stopped gaming with us for a while (very childish). But he since learned his lesson when he returned and hasnt repeated that nonsense since.
I have spoken with them at length about how their style of play affects the adventures I try to run, so far they have agreed to restrain themselves a little more, but they say being forced to play anything else other than what they want means they'd rather not play at all, which is a huge bummer for the group.
I have a suggestion, run a couple of one-off 'tournament' games, with pre-generated characters for everyone. Set each character separate goals that only they know, some specific and some general. A Pathfinder Society module would be ideal, as they often have goals built in for factions.
Generate all the characters yourself, and hand them out at the start of the session. Maybe have prizes to hand out for the best role-play, most goals achieved etc. Make sure they get characters the polar opposite of what they would normally play (whether or not somebody else has the kind of characters they would play is up to you).
The whole point here is that they are in a rut: they always play the same characters, they always do the same thing, and they never want to try anything different or difficult. For one night only, open their eyes to what playing something different means. Hopefully they will have fun, and compete to get the most goals completed.
If one of them has a paladin, for example, they may find that being the hero is actually fun when they win the prize. They may not, of course - they may just get disaffected and play as they normally do, making a pigs ear of the whole thing, but at least you tried.
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You can try a classic fairytale approach.
Have a poor old, but grouchy old lady meet the party. (She is a Fairy Godmother in disguise.)
Have her request the party for help or favors. (As a way to test the party) For example, asking them to help her find a jewerly that she is sure she dropped while walking through some bushes.
Or make it seem like she have something to hide or something valuable to steal.
The point is to get these 2 to try to harm or steal from her.
When they do... *POOF! She turns into a Fairy Godmother/Good Witch who immediately restrain them. (You can do this story-wise or as an unbeatable encounter.)
She can then reward those of the party that do her a "Good Deed" and punish those that did her harm... by say.... placing a permanent geas/quest/curse on them?
Something that is story driven and they have to "redeem" themselves to have it removed. Sort of like the price in Beauty and the Beast.
Pathfinder is a fantasy game and many fantasy stories comes from fairytales that often have a moral to them. So why not make this a moral lesson for these 2?
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You can also say to them “Ok, if you guys are good players, then you should be able to play a heroic LG PC too. Let us see you if you can.”
Why do I find it funny that some of the best advice in many threads comes from people names DrDeth and Evil Lincoln?
Why do I find it funny that some of the best advice in many threads comes from people names DrDeth and Evil Lincoln?
They have a sense of proportion.
Most people don't allow evil alignments. It's pretty odd to try and beat the other players you're playing with.
Most people don't allow evil alignments. It's pretty odd to try and beat the other players you're playing with.
Sadly, for some players that is exactly why they game.
I understand trying to beat the campaign. However trying to beat your team doesn't make any sense to me.
I understand trying to beat the campaign. However trying to beat your team doesn't make any sense to me.
Because in their minds, that is winning at D&D?
dm: "ok guys roll up new characters"
power gamers: "why?"
dm: "the party felt like your charcters were douche bags. so the left you guys in the middle of the night."
power gamers: "well i was just role playing my character"
group: "so are we"
Exactly so. The reason the rest of the party don't dump them is the social contract they are using to clean themselves after using the privy.
Why do I find it funny that some of the best advice in many threads comes from people names DrDeth and Evil Lincoln?
And Bob.
Hmm, that doesn’t fit the pattern, tho does it?
Depends what B.O.B. stands for, doesn't it?
Why do I find it funny that some of the best advice in many threads comes from people names DrDeth and Evil Lincoln?And Bob.
Hmm, that doesn’t fit the pattern, tho does it?
Depends what B.O.B. stands for, doesn't it?
At my current mass, it probably stands for Big 'Ol Butt. But who knows? Maybe I could be a hip-hop artist..
These guys are 32 and 30 years old respectively.
I have stopped them from using any 3.5 materials from the outset, so their ability to power game is limited. So theres no problem there.
And when they do wander off, I have on occasion done nasty things to them. Such as take a Gelatinous Cube, and stick it at the bottom of a pit trap (since its translucent its hard to see anyway), to make the situation worse, i made the wall on the opposite side an illusion, with the real 'passage' leading off from it through an illusion covered wall to the side before the pit. Needless to say, they got cocky and felt they didnt need to check for traps since it 'was obvious', made the jump - slammed into the opposite wall and fell down into the pit. At this point he didnt think it was a big deal, he would take some damage and land at the bottom of the pit and 'Levitate' or 'Fly' out. But then he landed inside the stationary Gelatinous Cube, which even though its a significantly lower CR monster than they usually handle, its unusual 'enviroment' and the fact the player automatically landed inside of and was engulfed by it led to their demise since they couldnt do much inside of the thing, and without anyone else to help them it was a sure death but could have easily been avoided if they stuck together.
Needless to say, since the last session these guys have stuck closer to the group, and tend not to wander off path too much. The player whose character got killed was a little miffed for a while but he realised how easy he could have survived it if he didnt go solo.
The group is 6 players strong, including those two, the other four tend to stick to the plotline and take care of buisness so the other two at best are 'backups' as one other player called them. And on the issue of awarding treasure and XP, i tell these power-gamers that simply using a Summon Monster I from a Wand of Summon Monster I does not make them 'clever' when they set off traps with it for the 1000th time. They do that so as to 'speed' things up because theyre impatient and dont want the Rogue to do his job (and thus I dont award as much XP for traps since they dont 'learn' much from it)
(Needless to say this tactic backfired on them when the traps they set of repeatedly made such a ruckus that any element of surprise was lost on them for the next bunch of encounters).
I have questioned why we bother with these guys, well theres a seperation between their 'gaming' selves and 'socialising' selves, they dont see any issue with the people, just their gaming style. They tend to follow this 'power gaming' method in almost any game they ever play, such as Shadowrun 3rd Edition,Exalted,Vampire The Masquerade,Star Wars Role-Playing Game and more.
One particular power gamer, the one who 'favors' the CE Elf Wizard/Sorceror/Rogue ALWAYS wants to 'become' a Succubus, he would play one if he could from Savage Species but the whole ECL thing is broken and I dont use the 3.5 stuff for now anyway. But it hasnt stopped him from trying to become one, so ultimately, later in their characters careers they all got granted a 'wish' at the end of long adventure series I created, with less stringent restrictions as it was being granted from a extremely powerful being in the campaign.
SO what did he ask for?, obvious. "I want to be a Succubus" he says with a knowing grin.
My response?, well the being was literally one of those 'be careful what you wish for' types, so he granted him his wish, and turned him into the first stage of Demon Evolution on the spot - a Dretch, stripping him of any sanity his character had in the process. He could then 'earn' his promotion to a better form like any other Dretch could - needless to say he EXPLODED out his seat in a rage. After much debate it was pointed out to him he knew he was dealing with a powerful Efreeti Sultan and they will always try to warp what you wish for if you wish for if your not careful. So far we havent seen him back since...lol. But the rest of the group thought it was fair.
The Druid player?, well his wish was a little more interesting. He wanted an extremely powerful magical staff for his character, and was careful to word his wish that he wasnt 'whisked' away to its location away from the group and that it wasnt cursed in any way.
Well I made the staff appear in front of him - with its current owner who was none too amused at being whisked away from its home. (After all such a powerful item would rarely be just laying around now wouldnt it?) So the powerful Liche offered him a choice - walk away and nothing would happen to anyone (he would rather go back to his lair to his studies) or fight him for the staff. Needless to say he felt the rest of the group would 'have his back' when he never had theirs really the whole time. They left him to his unavoidable fate. The Liche let him live in disgrace, after picking him clean of any 'interesting' items he carried. The player want too amused with the group but they explained this is how they feel ALL the time. So I think hes getting the idea of what hes doing to them now.
I appreciate all the feedback you guys are giving me, so thanks.
ID, that made me giggle.
I still think the pre-gen game might be good for them, though.
Just kill them, so they learn that playing like they have god mode on will not bring them any good. If they like to have a contest of strengh, you better make clear that the master ain't going to lose. After they have toned down you can go on as nothing ever happened.
Exactly! I never understood why a GM would fear players. IF they step out of line, kill them.
What the OP is describing is ridiculous.
Thinking about it some more, I have a quibble with the label.
i don't really think these guys are what I would call power gamers. I think they are more 'wanabe' power gamers. It sounds to me like these guys fail, and die pretty often without accomplishing very much. To me that's kinda the anti-powergamer.
They just like to think of themselves as 'all that' but they really aren't.
The other players in the group 'create' a character long before we any classes and races are assigned, they dont use the min/max method, they might want to play a charasmatic fighter so thats what they make - while it may not be 'optimal' its what they like to play.
(I use the 4d6 six times for attributes, drop the lowest BTW).
The other two always max out their key stats, and multiclass to max out their saves and give them more options for themselves.
The Wizard/Cleric/Rogue knows his characters spells dont pack as much punch as a dedicated caster, but he doesnt care. He just takes a bunch of 'Buffs' from Arcane/Divine lists for himself only, and mosly utility spells or healing (again for himself, or he charges other players for healing at 5GP a time for CLW, 20GP a time for CMW and so forth). He always favors ranged weapons (since Elves get Bows as a proficiency anyway) and sits back contributing little.
The other character trys that Druid/Rogue (Sneak Attack on every Natural Attack) trick but I dont believe its supported in Pathfinders RAW so I have started to disallow it. He dabbles in Sorceror eventually so he can cast Arcane buffs and such on himself, again he contributes little and his healing is ALSO at a price.
Fortunately the group is four members strong besides them, and they function pretty well without them.
These 'power gamers' are also 'rules lawyers', pointing out anything that works to their advantage, always pushing books onto other people to read things as written. They know most monsters typical stats, strengths and weaknesses off hand, but thankfully they havent gotten to read any Pathfinder Bestiary books YET. And I plan on keeping it that way - they ALWAYS turn to Knowledge skills as a excuse for their Metagaming nonsense when a fight breaks out. (This is a grey area since they are SUPPOSED to roll their Knowledge as a standard action, but these guys always seem to use Divination type spells such as Clairvoyance and such to 'see' most foes and use Knowledge ahead of time if they can)
Knowledge rolls are not a standard action unless it is a house rule.
Action: Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action (but see “Untrained,” below).
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.
With that said I am glad you are getting a handle on things.
The other players in the group 'create' a character long before we any classes and races are assigned, they dont use the min/max method, they might want to play a charasmatic fighter so thats what they make - while it may not be 'optimal' its what they like to play.
I like them already!
The other two always max out their key stats, and multiclass to max out their saves and give them more options for themselves.
Nothing wrong with that, in principal.
The Wizard/Cleric/Rogue knows his characters spells dont pack as much punch as a dedicated caster, but he doesnt care. He just takes a bunch of 'Buffs' from Arcane/Divine lists for himself only, and mosly utility spells or healing (again for himself, or he charges other players for healing at 5GP a time for CLW, 20GP a time for CMW and so forth). He always favors ranged weapons (since Elves get Bows as a proficiency anyway) and sits back contributing little.
The other character trys that Druid/Rogue (Sneak Attack on every Natural Attack) trick but I dont believe its supported in Pathfinders RAW so I have started to disallow it. He dabbles in Sorceror eventually so he can cast Arcane buffs and such on himself, again he contributes little and his healing is ALSO at a price.
It looks to me as if they are trying to minimize weaknesses and 'win' by out-surviving everyone else. That 'sneak attack every attack;' sounds broken from the word go.
Fortunately the group is four members strong besides them, and they function pretty well without them.
I get the impression the rest of the group manage to function better as a party without these guys in spite of the lack of optimisation, than they do with these guys involved.
These 'power gamers' are also 'rules lawyers', pointing out anything that works to their advantage, always pushing books onto other people to read things as written.
That would annoy me, as a player or a DM.
What surprises me is that the other players pay any mind to these guys at all. My attitude would be that as they contribute little and are not prepared to even try, cut them out of the loot and to all intents and purposes, ignore them.
IF they step out of line, kill their characters.
I felt compelled to correct this, as I am sure this is what you meant!
Sneak attack does work with natural attacks, but if he knew what he was doing he would go straight druid.
They know most monsters typical stats, strengths and weaknesses off hand, but thankfully they havent gotten to read any Pathfinder Bestiary books YET. And I plan on keeping it that way - they ALWAYS turn to Knowledge skills as a excuse for their Metagaming nonsense when a fight breaks out.
Oh that’s easy to fix.
Instead of saying what the monster is or describing it, you say “You see a medium undead. Roll your Ks Religion”, then give them what info they get from that roll. No more.
I never give monster names out. Vague descriptions are what I do, and if that would not work making changes is always an option.
Sneak attack does work with natural attacks, but if he knew what he was doing he would go straight druid.
Agreed. I think what they are doing is acting to get the most self-sufficient character possible, as the OP said, and going for the best buffs. What they don't seem to appreciate is that while each class may have weaknesses, each class also has strengths that they can exploit.
I never give monster names out. Vague descriptions are what I do, and if that would not work making changes is always an option.
Even if they succeed lore checks? Even if the monster is extremely common?
I wouldn't be trying to find a new group to play with like some other posters on here are prattling on about, especially if you are good friends with these guys and have been playing together for a number of years. I think there is a rather simple solution, talk to them out of the game and find a nice compromise and middle ground that everyone can live with. Don't be a passive-aggressive jerk in the game and try to kill their characters or try to make their gaming experience miserable.
Perhaps set some ground rules that in your campaign no PC may be Chaotic Evil, they may go Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil, leave the CE to the NPCs only. Then they get to play evil characters, but not the crazy homicidal jerks.
Open communication is the key in all relationships whether it be gaming with friends or your spouse, just keep it calm and respectful and they'll listen to your ideas/opinions.
Let us know what you decide and above all else, have fun!
The "no evil" rule is a good one. I've employed it. I've also liked the "No PVP" rule.
You have to look for what those two guys really want out of the game. Obviously they love the spotlight so maybe use that. A fun villain for them to have could be one that doesn't attack them directly but instead makes being the center of attention a bad thing. A bard that makes up embarrassing stories and makes it harder for them to interact with everyone comes to mind. Your other party members will not be harmed by this guy at all so those two are going to have to rely on their own abilities to take down this person. Thing is they sound like they're spread pretty thin and might have trouble finding him. If they do and kill him they'll get what they want and will be happy that they took him down and the rest of the party will always have that dead bard's stories to tell.
The "no evil" rule is a good one. I've employed it. I've also liked the "No PVP" rule.
No evil and no PvP are standard for the games I run, and usually the ones I play in. Some evil characters can work in a party, but most don't.