My PCs negotiated with it and are lugging it around with them feeding ity human hands because... reasons? It believes one of the PCs has submitted to being its servant and the PC has given the Zoog no reason to think otherwise. So far it has been used as a magical flashlight twice and has 'helped' finish off an incorporeal creature... with a whopping 2 damage. But, whatever makes them happy.
They also peacefully talked it out with the voonith, going above and beyond to help keep it safe. Not giving them a second pet... but it may reappear in book 3 to return the favor.
One thing to consider is that Scaen was supposed to be on body cleanup duty. A task that she failed spectacularly. So if you're concerned about the PCs having to deal with doppelgängers two on one, Scaen might not go crawling back to Oathsday so easily.
Maybe have Scaen pretend to be a dead body in one of the rooms, only to replace a survivor secretly at a later date?
In this AP, one of the minor NPCs, the child Brenton Lieklan, carries with him an item referred to as a 'shadow lantern'.
As I can't think of an item specifically notated as 'shadow lantern' in any of the books that I know of, it leads me to assume that the item in question is actually the Lantern of Dancing Shadows (which is a rather expensive item to be found on some level 1-4 adventurers.)
I'm about 60% certain that this is what this item is, and while it is a 41k gold item, it does not really change the balance of power for the party and could probably prove vital in some encounters later on down the road.
Just wanting to make sure that I have the right idea about it since my group will almost certainly either take it from the kid, or trade it for the appropriate item once they find it.
The item in question is a mundane shadow lantern, which is what that magic item you referenced is based on.
It's funny, right after I posted this question I went back through the parts of the AP dealing with those two brothers and noticed what its purpose is.
Didn't get back to the computer in time to delete my dumb question. >.>
In this AP, one of the minor NPCs, the child Brenton Lieklan, carries with him an item referred to as a 'shadow lantern'.
As I can't think of an item specifically notated as 'shadow lantern' in any of the books that I know of, it leads me to assume that the item in question is actually the Lantern of Dancing Shadows (which is a rather expensive item to be found on some level 1-4 adventurers.)
I'm about 60% certain that this is what this item is, and while it is a 41k gold item, it does not really change the balance of power for the party and could probably prove vital in some encounters later on down the road.
Just wanting to make sure that I have the right idea about it since my group will almost certainly either take it from the kid, or trade it for the appropriate item once they find it.
While I did find this guide very useful and enjoyable. I DO have to say one thing.
Unless I'm wrong, which is possible, I believe that objects always FAIL their saves against spells (with the exception of figments and glamer effects that specifically state they don't damage objects, support weight, ect.)
So things like Tiny Hut actually DO block rain, and strategies that involve shadow arrows passing through terrain don't actually work.
Damaging Objects > Saving Throws > Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate.
If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple.
Okay. But I notice the CMD for horse is 17 - doesn't that seem a little low for this situation? (Horse is running, pulling a small carriage, player wants to basically grab it rodeo style to slow / stop the carriage) Given that the horse is at a full run and hauling this vehicle behind that has mass, shouldn't there be some adjustments to the CMD?
I guess what I was looking for were any rules describing a situation where a creature attempt to grapple another creature at a full run - basically, a tackle. Logically, it's much more difficult to grapple something moving fast than it is something standing still.
Thanks everyone for the advice / and help!
I've used my method for awhile, again, it's home brew, so rules nazis beware but. Adding a carriage to a horse gives it a CMD of 28. Which is tough for lower level characters, but not impossible for the Brock Samson's of the Pathfinder world.
If the horse is pulling a carriage, you would do better to treat it as a vehicle rather than a horse.
Actually, that wouldn't help.
A out-of-control horse pulling a carriage is either an "uncontrolled" vehicle which means it automatically decelerates to a stop without help (obviously not applicable), or the horse itself is the driver. In this case, you need to take some sort of action against the horse in order either to stop the carriage or at least to make it uncontrolled.
Either of which puts you straight back into the question posed by the opening post. How do you stop the horse?
The vehicle combat rules are specifically designed for ships, or at least for vehicles with well-behaved propulsion mechanisms. I'd simply say they're inapplicable and go for the ordinary grapple rules, which DO cover this mechanic. Grab the horse and stop him by force majeure.
Well, if this were the suggestion/home brew boards, I'd suggest simply adding the CMD of the carriage (11) to the CMD of the horse. And while the numbers seem to not look too unrealistic, it's certainly not RAW or rules worthy.
I ran a dirge bard that understood the relationship between emotions and sound. By simply chiming a bell, he was able to use Haunting Refrain/Versatile Preformance to make intimidate checks. This bard didn't use words to intimidate people as much as he used tones. You could say almost anything at the right tone to make it come across as imposing or just plain creepy.
First of all, "charging" has a specific meaning in Pathfinder that doesn't apply in this case; the horse is merely running madly. The player needs to get within 5' of the horse (unless the player is a Storm Giant or something stilly like that), which he can probably do by moving on his turn. Once he has moved within 5', he attempts to grapple, provoking an attack of opportunity as he does so unless he has Improved Grapple, then rolls an attack roll, adding his CMB, against the horse's CMD.
If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple. (It's likely simply to bash the poor fool's head in with its hooves, but that's the player's lookout). If the horse is unable to break free, it (and the carriage) are stopped, but probably not prettily.
The main issues are that the player may not be able to move fast enough to catch a running horse (if he double moves, he won't have a standard action left to use to grapple), and he may not have a high enough CMB to successfully grapple what is, after all, a half-ton of angry off-brand hamburger.
A more sensible approach would be to try to grab the reins (a different type of combat maneuver check) and use the Handle Animal skill to bring the carriage to a controlled halt. Alternatively, jump onto its back and bring it to a halt with the Ride skill.
If the horse is pulling a carriage, you would do better to treat it as a vehicle rather than a horse.
destroyed is achieved by taking something broken and doing more damage to it---UNLESS you can destroy it in one hit. If the sword can not achieve the broken condition---it can never be taken down to half hit points.
Is that what you want to argue----that no matter what--you can never take it down to half it's hit points?
Or are you saying it doesn't suffer the "Effects" of broken?
in which case the oracle is the exact same
doesn't suffer the "effects" of fatique but lack of air (failing saving throw) and then exerting herself and failing second saving throw results in exhaustion--which she would suffer the effects from
both destroyed and exhaustion (if can be done in one round by one action) yep both surpass the middle part entirely.
so now---are the sword and oracle immune to the halfway point? or the "effects" of the halfway point?
No. Broken is...
Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.
If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item's. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).
As mentioned several times. Destroyed is a separate condition that occurs when an item hits ZERO hit points.
Nowhere in the broken condition description does it say that broken is related to being destroyed.
Let's slowly use the unconscious > dead analogy again:
If you get hit and go go -1 hit points, you are unconscious.
When you get hit and go to your negative con, you are dead.
But let's say you're an orc.
When you get hit and go to -1 hit points, you are not unconscious.
But you STILL are dead when you go to your negative con.
This happens because the rules for the unconscious condition don't say that you need to be unconscious before you are dead.
The same thing applies to broken vs. destroyed. The rules for the broken condition do not say that an item needs to be broken before it is destroyed.
There is no 'final rules ruling' that will be coming down. The rules already support that a black blade will still be destroyed at 0 hit points.
I could make someone to oppose them, perhaps a metal oracle who dabbles in necromancy and who sends out constructs and undead to kill the party
Whatever you'd like me to use. If I catch up to the current story, I'm sure you're character would find its way into the game if they face him in-game.
Clearly I'm not trying to KILL the party. Just bring them as close to death as possible and then nurse them back to health. Like a crazy nurse with a God complex... either way, they have proven to be extremely resilient to the point where it's a little crazy.
So, my group has been wanting to play an evil campaign for awhile now, and I had some vague inspiration as to how I could get 5 evil adventurers to work together and do... evil... stuff.
I have planned the evil campaign to have 6 'chapters' and we are just beginning chapter 2, in game. Thus far, the game has been far more successful and fun than I had expected. So much so, that my players have been nagging me to post about it on the Pathfinder boards.
Besides doing that, however, I've found that this campaign is getting increasingly more labor intensive, and while I can keep up with it, I think it would be both easier for me, and more amusing for everybody as a whole, if I started 'recruiting' characters from the boards. I will post general 'rules' for character submissions later on in the post, if anybody is interested, and if I remember when I'm finished. (Also, it should be noted that I might start stealing characters from Ravingdork's Crazy Character Imporium, if they suit my needs.)
Anyway, I'll be grouping the different sections with spoiler tags to avoid a giant wall of text.
Also, it would do well to note that a lot of the text I'm copy and pasting from my own personal notes, which were not written to hold up to an editor's scrutiny, please forgive the typos, grammatical errors, and plot holes in advance. Thank you.
Campaign Overview:
Deep within the pits of Hell, a quarrel among Dukes sparked to life. Zaebos (BotD I pg 50) Prince of Broken Glass and Quindiovatos (BotD I pg 50), The Vicious Guest both set their sights on the untamed lands of Golarion. Both being Dukes of insatiable greed wanting to claim new spoils, a conflict ensued.
At the same time, a pair of nascent Demon Lords from the Abyss were engaged in the trappings of a similar contest. The Nightripper, Lamashtu's torturer was at odds with Shamira, the demon lord Nocticula's favorite lover concerning the fate of a powerful healing monk of Sarenrae, Jackie Chun. Shamira, trying to corrupt his soul, was irritated to find that Nightripper was attempting to engineer his death to please his master, Lamashtu.
The God of Secrets, Norgerber, gained insight on these two conflicts, and had an idea… a chance to cause chaos using the combined powers of the Abyss, Hell, and even Abaddon. Using various means he offered six entities a wager (extending an offer to Apollyon and Szuriel to provide true balance… to which both entities delegated the task to one of their lessers.)
The six players would set aside any squabbles and participate in a game. The winner of said game would be allowed free, uncontested reign to sack Golarion, and Norgorber himself would help them obtain any desire found in the realm if it is possible to do so.
Whether or not Norgorber was lying is irrelevant, as the six beings agreed and Norgorber laid out the rules and brought forth the Book of Villany, a magic tome containing information on the most vile souls from Golarion throughout its history.
The Book of Villany is a compendium of souls that reside in Hell, The Abyss, Abaddon, as well as the few, rare, vile souls that exist elsewhere. The means of which Norgorber uses to summon these souls from the book is just another of his many secrets.
Using the Book, the six players would select 5 commanders, and those five commanders would select and summon 5 souls to be their pawns in the world. Each soul has its own power, and each player would be allowed the same amount of power. Some players may choose to summon one powerful soul and 4 weak souls, while others may employ balance with five equal souls, or any combination in-between.
The souls summoned would also receive an award. For surviving, they would keep their mortality… for winning, however, they would be granted one true wish, if it was in Norgorber's power to provide it.
What Norgorber neglected to mention, however, was that he had a plan of his own.
The party is under the "control" of Crowley, and ambitious and ruthlessly intelligent Contract Devil working under the bored Prince Zaebos. Crowley, however, has his own plans in mind… plans that may even trump the mechanisms of Norgorber himself.
How the Game works:
The game is simple: There are six starting zones, players from each team are randomly selected to start in one of the six zones. Meaning each area has 5 different teams in it to start.
The starting nations are: Varisia, Lastwall, Brevoy, Taldor, The Shackles, and Jalmeray. And their paths will all take them to Absalom.
The paths each nation will take are as followed:
Varisia > Nirmathas> Molthune > Druma > Andoran > Absalom
Brevoy > River Kingdoms > Galt > Druma > Andoran > Absalom
Lastwall > Nirmathas > Nidal> Cheliax > Andoran > Absalom
The Shackles > Sodden Lands > Rahadoum > Thuvia > Osirion > Absalom
Jalmeray > Geb > Nex (through Mana Wastes) > Katapesh > Osirion > Absalom
Taldor > Qadria > Mwangi Expanse (through Mana Wastes) > Thuvia > Osirion > Absalom
For simplicity's sake, however, Crowley will start in Varisia, Sandpoint, to be exact, where there is about to be a grand festival to christen a church.
The game is broken up into 6 Chapters. Each chapter represents a nation that various teams will start in.
Each Chapter has two Parts. The first Part is the Chaos Act. The Chaos Act judges teams based on how much evil they manage to cause, using whatever means they deem necessary.
The second Part is called the Dominance Act. This act scores players based on specific objectives relative to the area they are in, and usually takes place in the most important region of the nation. Often the capital.
The Generals (characters such as Crowley) will assign their own objectives in the Chaos Phase, and will relay the directions for the Dominance Phase as they are received.
After a Chapter Ends, the players will have a set amount of time to make their way to the next Play Area before play starts. Members who are tardy will obviously miss out on precious evil opportunities as they only become valid once they are IN the target nation.
The rules for the game are simple:
You are not allowed to kill your own General or Handler.
You are not allowed to divulge information on the Game to outsiders.
Any actions out of pure goodness will negate evil acts at a 2 - 1 ratio.
Players who attempt to abandon the game will be hunted down and destroyed.
Rules can change at the Gamemaster's whim, and will be relayed through the Handler.
A player's body and starting possessions are bound to their soul and will return to their former state shortly after the death of the player. (Bodies will turn to ash, weapons will turn into broken and mundane versions of themselves, ect.)
For better or worse, I let the players play almost whatever they wanted, barring races that I viewed were too overpowered or simply didn't fit into the campaign comfortably.
The players are as followed (I'm posting their first names because in my notes I might have used the players name instead of the character's name):
Jereme - Starting Character (Azael, CE Aasimar Fighter 10)
Will - Starting Character (Nish'ka, CE Changeling Oracle of Life 10)
Sam - Starting Character CE (Captain Herman Issac Cain, Human Drunken Brute Barbarian 7/Rogue 3)
Ben - Starting Character LE(Mrs. Lovitz, Elf Witch 10)
Dik - Starting Character LE(Batik, Tiefling Zen Archer Monk 10)
Chapter 1: Sandpoint
The Setup:
The characters 'awaken' in an abandoned house in the forests near the village of Sandpoint. Their memories of where they were before (and more importantly, what 'hell' they were suffering in) are cloudy and vague. In their possession are the items they bore in life, and a few others that they half-remember bargaining for on their way back to the material world. The core objectives of this new game, however, are sharply engraved into the back of their mind, and are the only thing that is certain.
Each party member is in the same, mundane looking house. That boasts a kitchen, a living area (complete with a large solid desk and bookshelves full of books) and stairs that lead upward to the next floor.
To greet them is a sullen looking young lady with silvery hair and wearing a gothic-style black dress. The girl introduces herself as Lynn, and explains, aloofly that she is to be their Handler for this game. From the next room, as if he had been there the whole time (despite the fact that the players can attest to the fact he wasn't) a sharply dressed man sporting a black and red suit steps into the room. The players suddenly recognize this man as Crowley, their 'Manager', of sorts, and a little bit of the fog that covers their memories flits away.
They briefly, with almost humorous neglect, explain what the newly formed party is here to do: They will begin their quest in Sandpoint, where a grand festival is being held to christen a new cathedral. Their objective is simple, desecrate the temple, and cause as much havok as possible.
The party asks a few random questions, and the only fact they learn is that Lynn is capable of acquiring various equipment and providing a large array of services. How, she doesn't explain, but she does make it an extra point to note that any and all services from her will cost double that of which they would be able to find elsewhere. Quoting "rules of the game" and whatnot. Additionally, they are told that the house they are in is 'special'. Upstairs, they all have their own rooms, which are magically suited to fit any reasonable needs of the character. Mrs. Lovitz, liked to cook bodies and turn them into pies, for example, and found it much easier to do with her own little mini bakery. The fancy rooms came with a bit of a caveat, however, as the doors were impossible to lock or bar, by any means. Meaning, that if another team (or an angry teammate from the same team) stumbled into their room to cause any sort of mischief, they would at least be able to get through the door.
Lastly, Lynn makes note that, in each area that the team will go to, she will 'move' the house. And then contact them to inform them of the location when they arrive in whatever city or place they are in. Any items that are left in the rooms are transported with the house.
The Swallowtail Havok of Sandpoint:
With explanations out of the way, the party leaves to go towards Sandpoint. Given a barely helpful, crudely drawn map from Lynn, they arrive at the city in short time. The mismatched band of villains entered the city among the droves of pilgrims and spectators, the hats of disguises helped, too.
The first thing everybody did was scout the town and the events. Various games were played, meals were eaten, and nefarious plans were in the making.
Before any of the real havok began, Nish'ka discovered these mysteriously covered wagons near the town square, and approached them to investigate. The wagons were being 'defended' by a decrepit old soldier, maybe a cleric, it was hard to tell since a lot of soldiers sport markings of their god, but nevertheless, Nish'ka bothered the man anyway. She learned that, in the wagon, were large cages of Swallowtail butterflies. The voices in her head, caused in part, by eating a lot of questionable mushrooms as a feral child in the caves that she once called home (or the link she had with her god, Lamashtu, Mother of Monsters), instantly urged her to give the creatures their true form.
Her odd conversational skills flagged her as 'more than a little touched in the head' by the old man, but he disregarded her as harmless and continued his duties. It was at that time that Captain Hermann Issac Cain approached him, at Nish'ka's request, to provide a suitable distraction as she snuck around to the other side of the wagon and doused a large portion of the creatures with her one usage of Waters of Lamashtu that was allowed at character creation.
Later, during the release of the butterflies at noon, as the party had rejoined to check out the event, the shenanigans began. The swarm of butterflies shot into the sky upon their release, and then immediately, as a cohesive force, arched downward, into the crowd of unsuspecting bystanders. The air echoed with the chilling screams of the common folk as the mutated butterflies (now equipped with deadly, deadly neurotoxin) set about stinging (with their fancy, new mutant butterfly stingers) men, women, and children without prejudice. A dozen or two people lie dead in the streets before adventurers and clerics alike were able to put a stop to the swallowtail rampage.
Some events were postponed as the people acting as security for the event attempted to investigate, disguises were changed, and there was a dark mood cast upon the entire event.
The Circus:
Next up was the 'circus'. (Please note: Fans of the Rise of the Runelords campaign, which this starting event was mimicking, if you hadn't noticed, may realize that there was no circus in the original campaign. That's because I do what I want.)
Docked at the port, was a rather large, lavishly decorated ship, spouting "Barnum Circus" on the side. They were allowed to provide entertainment before the christening. And entertain they did. During their first of two (scheduled) events for the night, commonfolk and villain alike gathered to watch the festivities. At some point, it was time for the tiger tamers to come out. This was a perfect opportunity for the tag-team of Nish'ka and The Captain to shine again. The Captain picked out the most irritated looking food vendor in the crowd he could find and set out to pick a fight. Being a Drunken Brute Barbarian, it wasn't hard for him to pose as a wasted patron, arguing about the price.
Insults were slung (with the help of the Antagonize feat), then a punch was thrown.
It was then that Nish'ka cast Murderous Command on the tiger, who was currently giving the trainer a trained, friendly hug.
Which suddenly became a bad friend hug, and the crowd was horrified by the gore.
One of the spell-casters that worked for the Barnum circus, managed to play off to the crowd that the whole scene was an intended stunt, showing a major image of the trainer 'alive and well'. And the event continued... until an incident happened with another trainer and an elephant.
One of the party members noticed a woman talk to one of the trainers near the fence, and then touch him on the arm.
What the party didn't know, was that the ice witch Falisandra, who was also in Sandpoint to wreak havok for her own team, had cast Nature's Exile on the man, at which point, the elephant decided towards vigilante justice, disregarding the now-traumatized children (and the drunken Captain, who was allowed to ride the elephant for fun) on its back and crushing the poor, hapless fool.
And the circus decided to pack it in until they were able to ascertain exactly what went wrong.
The Main Event (Part One):
Now that the fun and games were out of the way, the party began to act on a plan that was roughly drawn during the course of the day. Azael, Ms. Lovitz, and Batik would show up at the speech that was to be given by various town leaders, and assassinate the Mayor, as soon as the chaos began to spread, Nish'ka and The Captain would begin setting fires, starting from the Lumbermill and working inward.
As the crowd gathered at the Cathedral, Batik picked out his sniping perch, in full view of the speaker's podium, and loitered around at the base of the building, knowing that he could easily get to the top at a moment's notice. Azael placed himself directly in the crowd, with the intention to pretend to be a 'hero' and 'shoot back' at Batik as he filled the stage full of arrows, getting closer to the Mayor in his actions so he could manipulate the battlefield. Mrs. Lovitz took a support role, planning to cause panick and chaos using witch magic, starting from the White Deer Inn, and heading towards the cathedral.
They sat through a few unimportant speeches, and as soon as the mayor began talking, the villains took to action.
And so did the goblins, but nobody ever expects the goblins.
Mrs. Lovitz kicked off the main event, by creating a magical image of the evil butterfly swarm that murdered a group of commoners early in the day, and had it fly over the cathedral and into the crowd. Naturally, people began to panic. Simultaneously, Batik jumped on top of the building that he chose, and began firing arrows at the mayor. Azael, stayed calm and reacted as any 'good hero' should. Firing arrows back at Batik but missing.
As things turned out, Azael and Batik didn't actually communicate their plan to one another. So when Azael started shooting arrows at Batik, the monk saw this as a betrayal, and sent a few arrows flying at his comrade in earnest. Which started an actual shootout. Greatly helping Azael's disguise, ironically.
During the course of this, goblins, in their idiotic glory, started sewing additional chaos in the crowd. Killing a poor dog and then setting their blades into bigger flesh.
The poor souls that ran north, found themselves in the midst of a cloudkill spell as Ms. Lovitz calmly walked down the street behind the slow moving cloud. (The spell was relatively ineffectual, as it only killed a few people, not being fast enough to catch up to the commoners, now fleeing... not North. At the same time, however, the cloud covered the entire street, and Ms. Lovitz had to wait a few rounds in combat before she could even get around it to help out in combat.
Back to the shootout, as the Mayor tried to scramble to the Cathedral doors, Batik had enough presence of mind to fill her full of arrows, accomplishing that which they had set out to do. Using a message spell, the two villains were also able to sort out that they were not, in fact, enemies, and had more pressing matters to deal with. The Cathedral was now in lockdown, whoever was inside had consigned the people on the outside to whatever chaos that plagued them.
Azael 'helped' a wounded guard to safety, dragging him around the corner of the building towards the graveyard area, however, Batik made sure that anybody in guard armor was no longer among the living before making his way, carefully, around to Azael's location. Needless to say, Azael's new friend was dead at this point. Mrs. Lovitz finally arrived on the scene, using her Hat of Disguise to appear as a guard as she walked around a building, making sure to note to Batik that she was not an actual guard.
Headstrong, Azael continued around the side of the building, hoping that the shrine to Pharasma, located in the cemetary, held an entrance to the main Cathedral. As he rounded the last corner, however, he noticed a strange combination, a half-elven man and several goblins wielding crude shovels. At the sight of him, the half-elf ran. And the goblins came charging at Azael. Luckily, he spoke goblin, and, after hearing their battle shout, which venerated "Their Lady", he interjected, quickly convincing them that he, too, was sent by the Lady to help them, and that their orders were now to kill whatever longshanks they saw.
Gleefully the goblins ran past Azael, and he continued into the crypt. Only to encounter a truly terrifying foe. Somehow, somebody in the realms above, caught wind of what was to transpire, and left an unlikely guardian. Despite finding the dead abhorrent, Pharasma's champion was a repetant Grave Knight named Carsseus.
Once a great warrior that exploited necromancy and undeath, he was charged with being the same treatment. Forced to serve unwillingly as an undead abomination. Over time, however, his soul softened, and he began preforming duties willingly. But before he could rest in peace, he had to see the end result of this mysterious chaos that was beginning to spread in the Inner Sea Region. And he was to start in Sandpoint, where the powers that be simply knew that he had to be here.
So there they squared off, Carsseus versus Azael. After exchanging dry dialogue, the two clashed, pitting Carsseus's greatsword against Azael's deadly scythe. (As a GM, I had planned for this to be at least a 1 v 3 encounter, but as my players know, I don't pull punches if they split themselves, if they want to fight the deadly, deadly monsters on their own, let em.) The battle was quick, but the victor was unexpected. Due to some mysterious hand of fate (IE: my dice hate me, a lot) Carsseus blows failed to land, where Azaels strikes were nearly perfect. And right before Azael cleaved the head off of the Grave Knight, the abominated showed him a chilling grin. Wishing him well in his 'little game'.
As for Batik and Ms. Lovitz, still dressed like a guard, as they chased after Azael, they found, instead, a band of goblins charging towards them. In broken common they heard "KILL THE LONGSHANKS FOR OUR LADY!"
It wasn't much for them to dispatch the goblins, however, when Ms. Lovitz felt a blade pierce her back, things suddenly got a little harder.
What she didn't know, was that, during the chaos, standing on top of the cathedral, was one of her competitors: A kobold paragon (having wings and a breath weapon) ninja by the name of Stab-Face. Stab-Face witnessed all of her actions and deemed her as the first target. Miraculously, Ms. Lovitz failed to die from the assassination attempt.
Sadly for them, they were unable to see their attacker, as he benefited from the equivalent of Greater Invisibility. He harried them with attacks, but with clever usage of area of effect spells and readied actions, the duo managed to route Stab-Face, and he clumsily fled into the sky, living to fight another day.
The two reunited with a very heavily injured Azael...
The Main Event (Part Two):
As soon as the sounds of people fleeing en masse hit the ears of Captain Herman Issac Cain and Nish'ka, they set about inacting their own operations. They were already near the Lumbermill, and as they approached to set about with their pyromantic mischief, a pair of less than shady members of the local crime family emerged from a side door of the main building. Beyonce and Shy Ronnie were two cutthoats hired to protect this particular criminal interest, and the two that approached were very noticeable. After some quick banter, Nish'ka convinced them that they were just very strange and eccentric siblings. And the two thugs let them leave without incident. Naturally, the villains didn't give up, and quickly went around to the other side of the building. Expecting this, however, they were encountered by the cutthroats, and forced to fight. The two heroic villain characters made short work of the stock NPC Codex, underleveled NPCs. And set about causing a fire. And then they went across the town, causing more fires.
Upon meeting the goblins, Nish'ka presented herself as a follower of the Mother of Monsters, showing them her unholy markings, which they recognized. One of the goblins gave her their torch and they continued with their chaos. In turn, Nish'ka made it a point to magically buff any goblins she encountered while burning.
Halfway through the town, they encountered a group of heroic adventurers being set upon by skilled goblin fighters. Naturally, the villains moved to help their goblin friends. The adventuring party was made up of a dark skinned paladin, a halfling bard, wielding a flute, a female elf rogue, a middle eastern looking cleric, and a tough looking human fighter wielding two swords.
The fight was rather intense, but thanks to the element of surprise, and invisibility magic that the adventuring party wasn't quite strong enough to thwart, the goblins and villains prevailed, killing all but the bard, who fled in terror in the midst of battle. After looting and unceremoniously burning the bodies, the pair made their way to the circus tents, by their ship in the docks, in hopes of freeing the animals and causing more chaos. Sadly, the circus was much better defended than they had hoped, Barnum had a stock of mercenaries on retainer, and the two didn't feel they could accomplish much.
To The Cathedral!:
After rendezvousing with one another, both parties combined and though it best to work as a team to find a way into the cathedral, which was now being more heavily guarded by the town militia.
Moving along the coastline, their first surprise came from a smoking arrow at their feet. Followed by cannonfire from the waters off of the coast. The description of the Captain had been quickly spread through the less savory of Sandpoint's citizens (who's criminal assets were now mostly in flames) and he was marked as kill on sight. The criminal syndicate, who had friends with ships that had cannons on them, were making it a point to fire upon anything they saw as a threat to their assets, using smoke arrows as target markers. In another of MANY strokes of luck, the cannon fire was a bit errant, and didn't splash the party with several direct hits.
The protagonist villains were able to flee north before things became too bad for them. As they headed back towards the Cathedral on their new route (as their old route was in flames) they came across the Academy, a large stone building that was noted as a place for citizens to run in case of an emergency. Knowing this, Nish'ka went to the door and pleaded for them to let her in, tricking them into believing that she was a panic stricken unfortunate citizen. As soon as they opened the door, the cleric tossed her remaining supply of alchemist fire into the hallway, forcing the door shut and tying the handle to an object, barring the door from opening. The wooden interior of the building caught flame and soon the screams of burning refugees filled the air.
(The party also witnessed child versions of their beloved Rise of the Runelords characters escaping through a high window, naturally they were gone before the villains could catch them.)
The party made it to the town hall, where a grizzly scene was displayed. Several bodies were in the street, cut to pieces, while on the steps of the building there were frost bitten corpses, as well as a cold mist eminating from the building itself.
Moments later, a beautiful human woman dressed in white stepped out into the night air. It was apparent that she was the cause of the frost, at the very least. Her cold eyes, stared down at the party and she greeted them as the "agents of fire". Tactfully, Azael, feeling that this was a foe that he need not tangle with, greeted her as "the agent of ice" and the two shared an intense moment before calling a temporary cease fire.
Falisandra, the witch, from earlier at the circus, was low on magic, and even with help waiting in the shadows in the form of her halfing, wolf-mounted barbarian comrade Rakasho, she knew that she probably would die in a direct fight with the players. Her calm demeanor paid off, however, as the players ran away, missing an opportunity to kill one of their major rivals.
Immediately afterward, a dragon passed overhead, carving a path of fire nearby as it made short work of a squadron of guards.
(Oh, by the way, I figured since I was only going to use Sandpoint this one time, I might as well just combine the Rise of the Runelords goblin raid, WITH the giant raid. Complete with a much larger dragon!)
The villains dodged through side streets, wisely avoiding the dragon while staying out of the path of the soldiers mobilized to fight it.
They came across the local alchemist's shop by chance and decided to bust in. The door was well decorated, boasting a large glass window on the door itself and two accent windows on the side, all with the blinds down. The description matters because as the party attempts to break in, the owner, Alliver "Pillbug" Podiker manually set off his arrow trap that he had on the counter which was pointed at the door. A 15 foot column of poisoned arrows tears through the door and the two side glass windows, pelting the entire party with the trap. Sadly only one person failed the poison fort safe, and took minor stat damage. After subduing the alchemist, the villains traded his life and his shop for his secret store of alchemy supplies! More alchemist fire and ice for everybody!
As the party tried to get around to the side of the cathedral, to go further into the crypt in hopes of finding a backdoor. They were assaulted by two stone giants and a fire giant. After a harrowing fight with the giants, Azael landed the killing blow on the fire giant, and in a show of force, allowed the rock giants to leave if they, instead, set their sights on the force that was gathered in front of the cathedral.
The giants did just that, and the party made their way up the cliff face that the cemetery overlooked and entered the crypts.
The Final Assault:
As luck would have it, there WAS a door in the crypt that lead to the Cathedral (Azael fled after killing Carsseus, fearing more enemies within, as he was SEVERELY injured.) The door was locked, but the party had no problem breaking it down. Inside were two low-tier paladins, acting as guards. One moved to inform the others of the intrusion, while the other, a Paladin from the nearby holy-college Blue Mountain City-State (BMCS) stood his ground.
(Side note: Blue Mountain City-State is a running joke in our gaming group as a college that trained really inept paladin recruits. It started when Jereme, one of our players, made a paladin named "Thad Paladin", basing him off of the popular character Thad of the Spike TV series Blue Mountain State, who was from a college aptly named Blue Mountain City State. And the joke ran from there.)
Regardless, the party made short work of the paladin. But before they killed him, Azael told the paladin that he would spare the man's life if he forever forsake his goddess, Imodae. Being a coward deep down at heart, the rookie paladin agreed, and as his goddess stripped him of his powers on the spot, Azael stripped his head from his body. Azael was chaotic evil, afterall.
The party moved onto the main course, greeting them in the main hall were the head priest of the cathedral, and three paladins, one more noticeably imposing than the other two.
Duval Klempt, Paladin of Imodae. Was leading the defensive in this building, citing that the holy ground must be protected at ANY cost. Wielding his holy greatsword, Durandal, Duval and his comrades battled the villains. Azael and The Captain worked to hold the paladins at bay, as Ms. Lovitz used her magic to manipulate the battlefield, creating illusionary walls to prevent being seen while allowing Batik to fire arrows into his enemies with impunity. Nish'ka set out to end the cleric, who was skirting around the opposite edge of the room, attempting to support Duval with divine magic.
Duval was hearty, but as his comrades fell, he too could not match the combined might of his foes. Though, even while prone and near death, he showed the villains fear as he made use of his lunge feat and the spell Inheritor's strike, to send the Captain flying.
As he was slain, Duval's blood soaked his holy greatsword, as well as his divine wrath. And the weapon's holy power grew exponentially. As a trophy Azael claimed Duval's head and attached it to his belt. He did the same with the greatsword Durandal, placing it in its sheathe and then into his bag of holding, to rid himself of its painful effects.
The party made a mess of the cathedral, crafting a symbol of Lamashtu using the body parts of the slain clergymen. And boldly left via the front entrance.
Outside was a scene of carnage, dead human, giant, and goblin bodies littered the ground.
A loan soldier stood on the base of the steps, turning to meet the party. They recognized him as Belor Hemlock, the sheriff of Sandpoint.
But before he could engage them in battle, a hole erupted from his chest, the bloody outline of a kobold's tail weapon could be seen where Belor's heart once was. The players may have won the battle for that day, but Stab-Face had the last word... or stab.
Since this took longer to write than I had expected, I'm going to stop here for now. I intend to post more of the story at a later time, PROBABLY this weekend sometime, since we have a game session tomorrow after I get off work, and it might be too late for me to feel like writing again.
A brief overview of what's currently happening:
The party, now level 14, just entered Nirmathas via the bloodsworn vale (after making a deal with a dragon who lived there). Their objective is to go deep into the southern fangwood and destroy various druid groves to help spread the blight affecting the heart of the wood.
If anybody wishes, they can submit other competing villains. (25 point buy, normal gold value for level.) OR, they could submit ideas and characters that may oppose the villains in Nirmathas. I greatly underestimated how long it would take to post just the SANDPOINT events. But I hope it was enjoyable for you readers. Next post will have the Magnimar adventures.
I decided to build a Brock Samson clone for one of our group's Pathfinder campaigns. This is the monster that I created:
Brock Samson:
Brock is simple but beautiful. Go Brawler Fighter, and take the Dual Talent alternate racial trait (you don't need the extra feat with this build as much as you do the extra +2.) while specializing in Unarmed Strike... specifically, taking the Dragon Style Feats.
Ability scores depend on what you want to do with the extra feats. You need strength. Dex is vital for a two weapon fighter build. Wisdom is needed if you want to actually USE stunning fist as something other than a prerequisite, and lastly, if you want to use certain feat chains, you'd need to get int 13.
At 20 point buy this particular build is - STR:16* DEX:17* CON:14 INT: 10 WIS:14 CHA:8 (* denotes that the racial bonuses are included)
This particular build revolves around punching things as hard as you can, as often as you can. Requiring you to take all of the Dragon Style feats, as well as the Improved Two-Weapon fighting feats and the Weapon Focus/Specialization Feats. Everything else is malleable.
You can even ditch the Two-Weapon Fighting feats if you want to focus on different tactics, Brock will still smash faces. The order of the feats doesn't even really matter, and you can swap them around to fit the needs of your campaign:
Gear:
You should pump your strength as high as possible with a belt.
Monks robes are handy but not required.
An amulet of mighty fists, however, is essential.
Lastly, the brawling enchantment on your armor will just add more pain.
I could give you a listing of his powers at various levels, but I'll just post about the one session that I got to play Brock Samson in.
After all of his gear was added into the equation, Brock dealt 1d8+(30-40) damage with an unarmed strike. (This number changed depending on whether or not it was his first attack or his offhand attack, ect.)
However, his glaring weakness became apparent in the first encounter I played him in, which involved harpies (using Charm Person) and the mini-BBEG (who used Dominate Person.)
So... yeah, Brock essentially became a mini-boss and we wiped. However, if one wanted to be more balanced, they could put the improved willpower feats down instead of the non-essential feats.
If you're prone, you have a -4 to AC against melee attacks and a +4 to AC against ranged attacks. That's all there is to it.
And again, AoO's are resolved before the actions that provoke them, so that AC adjustment applies to AoO's from standing up, because the person is still prone during the AoO. Just thought I'd mention it, since I had to think about that one the first time it came up for me.
It should also be noted that since they're already prone, you can't re-trip them on an AoO as they attempt to get up. Since it effectively flows like this:
Prone target declares that he is standing > Attacker's AoO proc's > Prone target finishes his action, becoming no longer prone.
I've got a witch who's probably taking the heavens domain.
Since "heavens" is an oracle mystery, I got to ask:
What exactly is she? A Wiracle? Half witch, half oracle, and almost a miracle?
(Also: 1. Hellknight, 2. see above, 4. rogue-ish. Where's the third? ;) )
Ha! I meant to say mystery, eh well.
As far as the party goes, at this point, only god knows what they're playing now.
I'm just posting an update to let everybody know that I haven't scrapped this project.
On the contrary, I've purchased Hero Lab and it's helping me churn out NPCs much more efficiently.
Also, while I don't have the minute details plotted out, I have a general course I plan to have the pcs follow.
They will start in Sandpoint, during the goblin raid in Rise of the Runelords, the campaign we're currently playing now in my group. And they'll be forced to murder alternate (powered-up) versions of the original party.
Then I'll have them cut through Varisia, stopping in Magnimar and Korvosa.
Next stop after that is Nirmathas, where various plot devices will take them deep into the center of the Southern Fangwood.
After that, I can take a few routes:
I can have them go down through Nidal, into Cheliax, to Andoran and finally to Absalom.
Or I can cut straight through Molthune, Isger, into Andoran/Absalom. Or maybe even have them make a detour to Druma.
Ultimately, though, I plan for them to reach Absalom which will be the final stage for my little adventure.
Again, the fine details are still in the works.
But I plan on making NPCs for the druids/rangers of Nirmathas. I can throw all sorts of crazy crap at them when they go into the fangwood.
Once they start making their way through the third and fourth nation, whichever I decide, their presence will be much better known, and I'll start throwing hero npcs and inquisition type npcs at them (paladins, clerics, and, obviously, inquisitors), and lastly god hero npcs. (Dead heroes sent to put a stop to the dead villains.)
If any of you would like to participate, feel free to send me any character, good, evil or otherwise that you think would find a place in this adventure.
Thank you all for the assistance you have provided, and for the assistance you may provide in the future. :)
Do you have any examples of things your group makes? I don't an actual build, just info such as 2d6+34 per attack, or +24 to saves at level X, or AC of 35 at level 10.
I don't have any stats yet, as they are still overdosing on awesome and tweaking their characters but...
As far as I know.
I've got a Hellknight.
I've got a witch who's probably taking the heavens domain.
And I don't have a clue what the fourth is playing, but I'm sure he'll probably be a roguely type.
"Ertai Tarmikus is a red wizard conjuration specialist who originally hailed from the Forgotten Realms. Having reached the elite of his studies, he found his limited time on the material plane fading. Soon, like all evil wizards, he had heard of the tempting powers of lichdom and reached out to higher sources to extend his life. His knowledge was restricted however, to those who pulled the strings and allowed him to find what he was looking for. The powerful lich Szass Tam was one of those people; withholding the information needed and Ertai realized his search to become an undead in the Forgotten Realms was fruitless.
This was when he explored planar travel, taking his first step onto Golarian and into the capital of Cheliax. He created a tower and researched the history of this new world, crafting wondrous items to fuel his hunger for knowledge.
His death came when dealing with a glabrezu, building a contract that would insure him the secrets of becoming a Lich. He managed to create his phylactery but the final step was interrupted, the glabrezu stealing Ertai's soul before it could nest in its prison."
(The build below is an outline at best with, most likely a few errors. It's mostly there to highlight the basics so you can adjust him as needed against the party. Ertai's tactics would be indirect, offering to help by selling the PC's some of his wares. Having him give a few of the PC's some cursed items that debuff and hinder the party would be ideal, buying him time to summon and setup defenses. One of his biggest gimmicks would be to use scrolls of higher level spells but I'm not sure how difficult that might make the fight for the party; maybe stick to some of the utility scrolls and avoid summon monster IX.)
Ertai Tarmikus CR11
Male Human Wizard 12
LE Medium humanoid
Init + 5
________________
Defense
________________
AC 17, touch 13,...
I'll definitely be using Ertai at some point.
I'm impressed by the villanious turnout.
At some point I'll be introducing heros, inquisitors, and neutral factions in the campaign, if you guys want to submit those too, it's fine, though I'm going to be using those on an 'as needed' basis.
To date Krant is the scariest villain my party has encountered in Golarion. He's in The Masks of the Living God module. He'll need some serious leveling to participate, but we were scared to death.
I plan to check the local comic book/tabletop store on friday (payday) and see if they have that module in stock.
What kind of villains do you want? Recurring villains who are just as hurt-inducing outside of combat as inside or villains who are geared towards a slam/bam brawl
Both, actually. I want the PCs to encounter enemy teams that straight up try to kill them in the streets. And at other times I'll use enemies that manipulate the city guard into hunting the party on their behalf. As well as villains who might not interact with the party at all, and just wreak havok on their own.
I Give you Celestia "Princess of lies" with glibness cast she has a +50 bluff to her rumormonger talent.... so even with an Impossible lie (-20)The populace of any given state will most likely believe she is their queen. (dc35 for Metropolis)
Not so much combat orientated but can still hold her own. She still has about 1000 gp to spend i just ran out of thoughts.
does your group typically get fire resist or immunity? I'm asking because of the choice between explosive bomb or force bomb. Also does your party typically get poison resist or immunity? I'm thinking of cloudkill bombs is all.
Currently I'm not expecting them to get anything specific.
But they're powergamers who I'm giving a lot of leeway with their characters. So I can't guarantee that at least one of them may have fire and/or poison immunity.
Can you give me an idea on how powerful you want the villain to be before I start? I'm just wondering because I could create a single pc that could cause a party wipe if used properly.
Well, I'd avoid using super cheap tactics to kill the party. But I'd be content with villains that could post a challenge against multiple PCs.
Since cheap tactics is a subjective thing I need to know exactly how powerful you want the villains to be. I can make a straight up half orc bomber alchemist that could tpk the party without "cheap tactics".
Umm... I'm not really great with Golarion specific anything, but I can make some good tenth level villains with a theme and a backstory if that is good enough. If your alright with some generic villainy than I'd be glad to help.
Can you give me an idea on how powerful you want the villain to be before I start? I'm just wondering because I could create a single pc that could cause a party wipe if used properly.
Well, I'd avoid using super cheap tactics to kill the party. But I'd be content with villains that could post a challenge against multiple PCs.
I'll play - do you actually want historical Golarion canon bad-guys (which might be difficult), or are you OK with just kind of hand-waving that part of it?
Nah, later on I might create a few of them when the party level is like 15 or so. But for now I'm just creating custom villians from different areas.
So, I promised my players that I would run an evil campaign for them after our current playthrough of Rise of the Runelords is completed.
After bouncing around a few ideas as to how I'd like to run this campaign, I've settled on an amusing idea.
At this point, I haven't fully written the campaign backstory, but I've hammered down the big points.
I'll give you the short version.
Basically, certain elements of the three evil aligned outer planes are having a 'friendly' contest, of sorts, which requires them to conjure forth evil souls from Golarion's history and restore them to life.
These souls are to take part in a competition that will span from major city to major city. Basically, allowing them to wreak havok on modern civilization.
Obviously, there will be a BIT more to this. Things will change, and players will be eventually pushed to the end of a plot.
But for now, it's prep time.
Effectively, each 'patron' (be it demon, devil, or daemon) will get to start the 'game' with 5 souls... might switch the number of souls to 4 depending on how many players are participating once we ACTUALLY start this game. Regardless, the average 'strength' of the souls on the team will be that of a level 10 character.
Most patrons, including Crowley, the devil patron of the party for this campaign, will elect to choose 5 level 10 characters. But it won't be uncommon to see teams consisting of four weaker members and one much stronger member.
While I do have a few teams, worked out and on paper. I figured it'd be amusing to see what other villains might come out of the woodwork if I requisitioned help from outside.
What I am asking of you is simple.
I need level 8-12 villains.
The requirements for these are pretty straightforward.
Standard character wealth by level as seen on chart 12-4 of the PHB (pg 399)
25 point buy.
Average rolls on hit points rounded up. (HP is something, I as the dm can play with on the fly anyway.)
Standard paizo content only. No 3rd party.
No sentient items.
No artifacts.
Monster races are allowed as long as there's no HD adjustment (basically they need to have a "as PC" template) and they've had the means to survive in civilization for an extended period of time.
Everything else is fair game.
Additionally, I also need a quick backstory that includes what time/place your villain existed in the Golarion universe, what they did that made them go to Hell/The Abyss/ect., and how they died.
Assuming that this actually acquires participation, I'll start sorting the valid applicants into teams, and once the actual campaign starts, I'll post pertinent information regarding your devilish heroes in a separate thread.
The way I look at it is that Animal shamans get Wild Shape at level 4. When they're supposed to get a better version of wild shape at level 6, they only improve in their respective animal. When they hit level 8, they begin improving in all animal shapes while still vastly improving in their animal shape.
That's how I look at it.
Giving Animal Shaman Wildshape at level 6 makes them forfeit one use per day of it, since they don't get it at 4, and that's kind of dumb.
I'm by no means a duelist expert. But I will say that I don't believe the duelist is designed to damage. It's designed to defeat and incapacitate individual human (or weapon-wielding) opponents. Duelist is more about stacking +attack and utilizing critical feats or CMD feats (primarily the attack ones, Disarm/Trip/Sunder) than it is about obliterating the opponents' HP.
Duelists are intended to stack their AC with dodge and dex bonuses. Doing so increases their CMD, which prevents against being disarmed/tripped/sundered.
Critical feats play into duelist because they would stack with the duelist's final ability, effectively crippling opponents in battle.
With a consistently high attack bonus, canny duelists can parry with their second (and occasionally their third+) attack, and riposte using their full base attack bonus. Effectively getting multiple attacks per round using their full BA.
I don't believe that there's anything wrong with duelist, except for the fact that it's niche. The duelist makes for a well balanced Prestige class because it outpreforms the base classes in one way, while underpreforming in other aspects.
Would the Roof Runner Archetype in APG not be good for this?
I guess it's situational depending on whether or not there are any roofs about, but I think there should be as a City would work best for this kind of setting. :)
If I were to make a Parkour based character, Acrobatics and Climb would be high on my list of priorities!
Roof Runner rogue is perfect for this. Because it's not just roofs, it's roofs, spires, and SIMILAR structures. A lot of room for interpretation.
I'll say this... whenever players wander off in my campaigns, people die.
Not so much for RP settings, like in a town.
But in various dungeons and dangerous settings. If one player decides "Hey, I'm going to go over here, screw you guys." He finds himself face to face with an encounter meant for his whole party.
Mainly, what I've read in the responses is a more consequence based approach. Do that.
If you're going to build a duelist rogue, the best way to do it is pump +attack so you can hit WHILE fighting defensively. Combat Expertise is a must. Instead of Trap Spotter, take Weapon Training for your rogue talent.
I'm currently playing a Fighter 3/Rogue 4, burning all of my rogue talents for feats (building like a fighter), and it's turning out to be a monster.
Full rogue, even swashbuckler rogue, doesn't hold up well in a 1 on 1 fight. But if you have to take it, build it as much like a fighter as you can. Fighters make better duelists, with the EXCEPTION of Uncanny Dodge. (Luckily with my build, I only lose 1 levels worth of Base Attack in the four levels of rouge that I'm taking, AND I still get a bonus feat every two levels.)
IF you absolutely MUST go first, though, I suggest going human. You can put the +2 to int, you lose the +2 to Dex, BUT your HP isn't going to be as low. PLUS, you can take Imp Init AND Toughness. (Because playing an old character, you need to take toughness to keep up with us young whippersnappers.)
I'm in the same party as Zeiph. In case it matters, our party currently has my level 3 aldori sword fighter, a level 3 dervish dancer bard, a level 3 Illusion-based (I BELIEVE) sorceror, a level 3 monk, and a level 2 ranger.
Now, while I'm not too great at building casters, I'd get rid of Improved Initiative, and I'd only take Craft Wondrous Item if you REALLY mean to use it. Instead of toughness at level 13, I'd take it at 1. Don't really need quick draw unless you're planning on going Harry Potter on our enemies.
My case is simply that I do not believe that the rules are clear enough to adequately support Option 1 or Option 2. If you accept Option 1 as fact, than it opens up a host of in game situations that could be problematic.
To further clarify, I do not accept Option 1 as fact. I regard it as the best-supported possibility. It's not explicit in the rules, but it is the simplest, cleanest, and most in line with related rules/mechanics.
Quote:
So again, I'm not saying that Option 1 is wrong and Option 2 is right.
Uh... It's sounded very much like that's what you've been saying, up until now.
Didn't mean to make it sound like I was saying it was 'wrong' per se. Just that if I was at the table, and somebody told me it was RAW, I'd argue that it's very circumstantial... and that there aren't any clear rulings on the subject.
Regardless, I'd love for one of the Leviathans to come in and give us an Dev comment on the subject.
So really, all this discussion is... is whether or not it SHOULD be allowed.
Good call on bringing it back to the point. You're right we were getting sidetracked.
Quote:
I haven't seen anybody pull out a rule that says you can grab an item from an adjacent square. So quoting it as "how the rules work" is not quite correct yet.
I will gladly concede the point to you when you tell me specifically where it states that you can reach into another square and take an unattended item from it.
Basically, I'm arguing from a perspective of precedent:
The rules are explicit in letting you grab an attended item from an adjacent square. I contend that this sets a precedent from which we can extrapolate that an unattended adjacent object should be handled the same way, rather than a different way.
Meanwhile, I am aware of no precedent whatsoever for needing to move into an item's space to pick it up. Handling it this way does not mirror any existing (and sufficiently similar/relevant) rule that I am aware of, and in fact goes against the aforementioned precedent.
So I see Option #1 having precedent to support it, and Option #2 contradicting precedent. Therefore, I conclude that Option #1 (being able to retrieve an adjacent item) is most likely to be correct.
If you can show Option #1's precedent to be invalid, then the two Options become equal (neither is supported by or contradicts any precedent). At that point, it is up to GM discretion and nothing else. If you cannot invalidate Option #1's precedent, then you need something stronger than precedent (such as an actual rule, or developer commentary, etc) to override it.
Your case?
My case is simply that I do not believe that the rules are clear enough to adequately support Option 1 or Option 2. If you accept Option 1 as fact, than it opens up a host of in game situations that could be problematic.
Rogues would be able to pick locks and activate traps from an adjacent square, even one opposite of the door, people would be able to interact with objects that are attached to a ceiling 10-ft high, ect.
So again, I'm not saying that Option 1 is wrong and Option 2 is right. What I'm saying is that the rules aren't clear enough on the subject, and that it's largely up to DM discretion.
Being able to come up with a cool description of what might happen in real life has no bearing on how the rules of the game work.
Being completely rude when somebody doesn't agree with your point has no bearing on whether or not your point is valid.
That statement was not intended to be rude at all. I meant it completely at face value. Sorry for the apparent lack of clarity in that respect.
Now I could be wrong, and forgive me if I am, but there has been a general condescending tone in most of your last several posts. But, again, I could just be over-sensitive to that kind of thing. I'll take it at face value that you weren't intending to be rude, and retract my comment.
And if it's a smaller creature in your square, you wouldn't hold the thing out into another 5ft square, you'd simply STILL both be in your square, grappling.
That would be the opposite of what the rules say.
If you're the GM of your own game, feel free to change the rules to make sense to you. Just remember that this is the section of the boards dealing with how the rules currently are, and sometimes they make a little less sense than a well-thought-out houserule.
But no matter how many times you insistently repeat that they should be different (and maybe they should!), it doesn't change how they currently work by default.
We're getting a bit off topic with the whole 'grappling a smaller creature that's occupied your square' bit.
Unfortunately, the rules don't have explanations for EVERY single scenario that comes up. Which makes it up to the DM to make spot rulings.
But, by your logic. The rules don't specifically state that you can reach into another square and pick up an item. To be fair, they don't say you can't either.
So really, all this discussion is... is whether or not it SHOULD be allowed.
I haven't seen anybody pull out a rule that says you can grab an item from an adjacent square. So quoting it as "how the rules work" is not quite correct yet.
I will gladly concede the point to you when you tell me specifically where it states that you can reach into another square and take an unattended item from it.
That quote for grapples only applies to creatures with greater than 5 foot reach.
Incorrect. Please do not make claims about context without looking first.
The only quote about grapples you said was.
"If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
Notice the word "IF"? Using deductive logic, if you're able to successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you... it means that character is at least 10 feet away. Since adjacent means that he's in one of the 5 foot squares next to yours. Therefore, IF you successfully grapple him. You'd logically have to have at least a 10 foot reach.
Or you could be using a reach weapon with the grapple quality. Or the target could be a Tiny creature who was in your space.
Deductive logic involves looking at all possibilities, not just the ones that are convenient for your position.
If you have a reach weapon with the grapple property, than you effectively have the reach of the large creature. That's just arguing semantics. Either way it doesn't negate my original point. And if it's a smaller creature in your square, you wouldn't hold the thing out into another 5ft square, you'd simply STILL both be in your square, grappling.
As far as EASIER goes. It's not easier to disarm/steal. First off, either way you provoke an AOO. Unless your character has specifically taken the proper feats to avoid provoking, which signifies particular skill or training.
Secondly, you don't have to roll a CMB/Attack roll to pick up an inanimate object off the ground. When you attempt to disarm/steal, you have to beat their CMD, and if you provoke and get hit, you have to deal with the damage dealt as a negative to your check.
So I honestly don't see either of your points.
The person holding the item could be leaning away from me, holding the item as far away from me as possible - maybe even dangling it into a third square - and I can still grab it as per disarm/steal rules.
Even if the unattended item is in the far corner of the adjacent square, it still can't be any farther away than where an enemy could be holding it. Simply removing the enemy does not make the item harder to reach.
Which supports my idea that in order to use a combat maneuver on him, you have to enter his square to TAKE the item.
Furthermore, I don't know about you, but my arms can't reach the ground when I'm standing. If I want to pick something up off of the ground, I have to move on top of it, and bend down and pick it up.
A combat maneuver doesn't necessarily have to represent just grabbing the item and taking it away. It can also represent grabbing the person, twisting his wrist and making him drop the item using some fancy kung-fu technique.
