Here is the situation, there are two players in the group who have played Dungeons & Dragons way back since Advanced 2nd Edition and both are seasoned Rules Lawyers as well, they have read every convieveable book that was ever published.
Now we've graduated to Pathfinder as opposed to 4th Edition, which preserves the spirit of what D&D is really about, a new situation as arisen.
For simplicitys sake, I only allowed the players to use the Pathfinder published books and certain third party materials, trying to keep away from the 3.5 books (both players would immediately delve into the Book Of Exalted Deeds and Book Of Vile Darkness as an example). Thinking this would retain some measure of balance, and we could gradually work in our extensive back library of 3.5 books as we go.
Problem is this, both players dont really 'create' characters, they min/max and level dip into a bunch of classes to make them in their own words 'self sufficient' that they dont need to rely on anyone for anything, since both players tend to play Chaotic Evil characters and feel they should be able to do as they please.
The rest of the group handle these guys reasonably well, they stick to the plotlines and dont try to murder or rob every NPC they think they can take, as both of these other players are trying to 'one up' the other. Now I have taught them time and again not to attack and rob NPC's every chance they can get when they attack something they sorely underestimate or they rob someone who sends merc's to track them down and bring them back screaming for punishment.
They have for the most part toned down the whole killing/looting NPC angle, but the competition for the 'spotlight' hasnt dimmed at all. Both tend to have their characters 'wander off' in a direction the rest of the party isnt heading in, just so they get some 'alone time' to do whatever they want, which is usually get up to no good.
Then comes the main issue, which I simply refer to as 'The Pecking Order'. The two power gamers frequently feel they could 'take' their fellow party members and help themselves to the lions share of the treasure, and feel that the 'strongest' should help themselves first and then everyone else gets the leftovers. The attitude of these players DOES follow the alignment of Chaotic Evil as its pretty much what the characters should be like, but short of forcing them to change their characters and/or alignments, what would be other peoples suggestions for bringing harmony back to the group?
These two players are more or less cornerstones of the group, and the other three players drop in and out casually, and they both have had this competitive style ever since they first played with one another (yet they are great friends in real life), and in most other games its not such a big deal, but I'm just wondering if theres any other advice out there to help harmonise things without alienating these key players.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions/ideas.
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Well, just sit them down and talk to them like adults. Tell them that you want to run a heroic campaign, no Evil alignments, etc. Explain that while you know THEY are having fun, YOU are not, and as a game, it's important everyone, including the DM, have fun. You also have to explain that you want to keep a full group, so you don;t want their PC's bulling the other PC's. In fact it is VERY likely that the "other three players drop in and out casually" do so as they are not having fun.
As far as them wandering off by themslves just follow my solution, which always works:
Main group "You find a group of monsters, combat and loot occurs".
Soloist: "You encounter nothing"
Main group: another fun encounter
Solist "you encounter nothing"
Repeat until he gets the picture. Remember, YOU are the DM, and the DM decides encounters.
Loot? Pretty simple. Make sure that the most cool loot is specialized, that it will only help one PC. Then some generalized low level stuff, then some cash. Combined with the adultlike talk, and you have a winner.
1. Put a severe limit on any books outside of Pathfinder so they can not become self-sufficient so easily.
2. You may have to ban the CE alignment if that annoys you.
3. Tell them their style of play is not appreciate, and their system mastery is not an excuse to be jerks.
4a. This should be number 1. Make actions have real consequences.
4b. Splitting the party is a bad thing in the game.
By using my first point the 4b should become less of an issue.
Best suggestion that I can make is to talk to these players outside of the game and ask them to rein it in, at least a little. The most important part of these games is to have fun and it's your "job" as a GM to make sure that everyone is having fun (that includes you!).
If you're Chaotic Evil players are overshadowing your other players in power-level, power-gaming and rude role-playing (which is how this form of "chaotic evil" is coming across), that might be a part of why your other players are less committed.
So, talk with these two players and ask them to keep it fun for everyone or talk to the group as a whole and ask the group, not each player, what they want to do as a unit to keep the game fun for everyone. Force your players to work as a team, even if they're characters don't.
The group gets approached by a high level Paladin and equally potent cohorts, who informs the party that they are wanted criminals in connection with some of their more nefarious deeds, and that he is there to take them into custody on behalf of one of the places they've committed their crimes. He would prefer to bring them in peacefully so they can be questioned (zone of truth, true speech, etc) as to their guilt or innocence, but if they resist, he will use any force necessary.
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There are so many ways to deal with evil characters, especially if they go out on their own. They are making themselves targets for the nefarious activities of other individuals/groups. You've got stolen from, mugged, assassinated. In doing their own underhanded dealings, observed by a local thieve's guild and they become the target, or a witness observed them and the law comes after them. A bounty is placed upon their heads.
Make the world seem alive. Just as most folks who have been playing D&D/Pathfinder for years fight against the evil forces, players who play evil characters must learn their are consequences to taking such action. The game allows folks to play an evil character (though that is up to DM discretion too), however, it does not force the world to take it easy upon those characters.
Nope. This is the standard fallacy of trying to solve a OOC problem IC. By putting bounties on their heads and whatnot, you are just giving them the spotlight, which is exactly what they want. They WANT to be 'wanted' if you know what I mean.
Note that these players ALWAYS run the same sort of PC's. They are not the normal sort of players who decided one time to try a evil PC just for fun to see what would happen. Those Players can learn thru what happens to their PC's. These guys can't - in fact by doing this sort of thing you're just playing the game their way.
The OP is the DM. He just needs to talk with them OOC, like adults. There's no IC way of fixing this.
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You can't deal with an out-of-game problem with in-game solutions - but you can use carrots rather than sticks to encourage the players.
Bring in awards for role-playing for each session, things the players can vote on:
Best in-character role play: 100xp
Most stylish action: 50xp
Best committed teamwork: 150xp
Most heroic action: 200xp
See if you can get them to compete for the 'right' things...
If they are power gamers, give them a reason to act together by playing on that. They recive something intagible, the shattered spirit of a god for example. As long as they are i proximety to one another and acting toward a shared goal that get some circumstance bonus and Teamwork feats free. Just an example, but if you know what kind of PCs they make, give those PCs an insintive to work together. Somethin that cant be stolen and actually increases the more they cooperate.
I really don't think this is a problem with power-gaming. It is a problem with being chaotic evil. Explain to them that you're trying to run a "good" campaign, just like you wouldn't have laser guns and in a fantasy game it is inappropriate to have chaotic evil characters in this game.
This is probably the best place to start.
When one of the evil characters leaves the group, let him experience a tough encounter all alone. If the character is killed off, be sure that the next character the player makes comes back as a first level character without any of the items the previous character posessed. In games that I DM in home campaigns ( note that Pathfinder Society play bans all evil characters ), chaotic evil characters are banned since they become too disruptive to the rest of the group. This is always made clear to the players prior to the start of the campaign. In my home campaigns, any character who starts out as non chaotic evil, but whose alignment subsequently changes to chaotic evil, is automatically removed from the game becoming an NPC villain ,controlled by the DM, who possesses all the previous character's pretty equipment.
The rest of your post is good advice, but the start of it- let that player have the spotlight with a great combat while the rest sit around and twiddle their thumbs? That's just rewarding him, even if the PC dies.
The bit about Evils becoming NPCs can work, if warning is given.
Palidian or a geass/quest that makes them work as a team and work for the greater good, have a god place it on them.
Let the solo evil dudes run into so nasty traps that they will never want to solo again.
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a few things i have to say in this matter
1. an evil character leaves the party to wander on his own. the dm says "nothing happens" the evil pc says f@%@ you buddy i find something. an evil character can create his own encounter. a high disguise mixed with some magic items and now hes jack the ripper, or just killing one guard after another. a smart pc will have a way to hide who he is to make himself more difficult to hunt down.
2. you wander off and BOOM ENCOUNTER OF DEATH you restart with little money minimum level and lose some of your out of game time to rebuild while everyone else plays happily together. i see a few problems with this. short of one shotting this character a well built character is very difficult to kill. i play mages and i spend alot of time planning escape routes. best case scenario your players complains about how his UBER character is more than the dm can handle. worst case scenario he pulls a rabit out of his ass and defeats your encounter leveling multiple times and claiming his victory pushing the other evil guy to do the same thing and now you are really in trouble.
3. talk to them out of game sounds like a great idea for really mature players. explaining that you would prefer to keep the game running in a way that all players have fun and get to participate. the only real drawbacks to this are your players may been stifled creatively (they can deal with that) or if your players are immature you could lose one or both of them. now if they have been with you for a long time that is unlikely
4. give them a bonus or item that operates only when they are with the entire group. on the surface this sounds good. but remember there is a reason a feat book is so expensive. and a reason why teamwork feats are so nice. they require an investment from the people who use them. so giving them to your players for free is just free icing and cake. what you may end up running into is your 2 power gamers cramming the other players in there bags of holding and dragging them around everywhere they want to go so they can get the benefits of the group buff.
My take on all of this. with a standard character with standard gear and access to limited source books (3.5 is the devil) no character should be self sufficient until higher levels. and taking into consideration that at higher levels your characters should be facing more challenges they should still need to stay with the group. primarily mages and clerics find them self in a position of self sufficiency and that is largely in part to summons. a physical character should never lay claim to this. if they are then you may have just found your problem. it is possible that your challenges are not challenging enough and yoru players are becoming bored. i would suggest add a little zip into your next few encounters. maybe keep track of damage or something so they can compete.
a few quick fixes i have not seen posted yet
for every high level pc there is a low level monster that will make them feel impotent. take some time look through your book and find a creature that your pcs cant solo. it doesnt have to be a cr 1000 just something with an ability that really messes them up. for instance a barbarian wielding a greataxe that cleaves and murders everything in one hit may have trouble escaping from a large creature with a huge cmb for grapple, grab and swallow whole. the pc cant use his axe now and unless hes carrying a dagger he may find himself slowing trying to claw his way through the animals dr/good or dr/-- stomach. watching a mighty chaotic evil barbarian die inside the stomach out of some kind of celestial dire toad would teach him the humility that he needs.
start introducing intelligent items to the party that do not exceed normal party loot values but offer some special ability useful in certain situations. nothing to powerful but useful nonetheless. then everytime the wielding user makes an act outside of the items alignment roll for control.
if your self sufficient players rely on summoned monsters introduce them to a low level spell protection from evil. or circle of protection from evil.
if the problem continues maybe put that game on hold start a second game. a monstrous campaign where everyone picks a beastial race or templated race. have everyone be evil. set up small towns or castles and let them just trounce the crap out of everything and get there evil out. when you go back to the other campaign explain to the players you want to have a 2 sided game. where you have the evil marauders running aroudn causing havoc then you have your goodly people trying to save the people. in the end as a special surprise you could let them pick which group they want to face and play the other side npc and fight good vs evil.
sometimes players just need to murder stuff. you could start a 1/month gladiator session magic free where people build toons with masterwork gear and duel them.
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The only people we allow to play evil characters in our games are the PLAYERS that are not playing competitively with each other, even for fun.
Playing chaotic evil is just a mean to be a childish dick, and will always bring the fun out of the party as a whole at some time. Good players don't do that because they know it. D&D is a game where they aren't the only players, and as the DM, you have the right and duty to make sure that everyone is doing efforts to have no one left on the fun boat... even if it means not playing some kind of aligment and making sure there aren't guys stealing the loot and spotlight.
So, like for any DM out there with a problem about their players : talk with them.
I think, ShadowcatX, that it would be easier to just tell the two players: "Guys, everyone else is losing out because you both keep insisting on going off solo. Can you stop it please, because I no longer see the point of devoting my time and energy between two groups of people. I'd run two sessions but I don't have the time, and the other players aren't causing me this grief, hint hint."
The thing I have found that seems to work the best in this situation is bring the other players closer to the power level of these two. Power gaming isnt a huge problem in my oppinion as long as the party is pretty close in power. After that you just crank up the encounters until its a challenge again. Give the other players some loot that helps them that isnt particularly usefull for the power gamers. Throw an encounter at the party that those two are not tailored to but allows other party members to shine and show them they cant go it alone.
I would like to propose that you not make them a target. There is a specific reason for this:
They like opposition, and they like the spotlight. This would do both. While at some level it might "feel" like a good solution, it risks enhancing the problem.
Carrots and sticks are a better way to go. As this behavior is somewhat entrenched:
- Offer rewards for things you'd like to see more of. Make being a team player rewarding...and something they really, really want to achieve. These are goal-oriented mindsets.
- Make other options less rewarding. They care about the shinies, the rewards, is the bluntest way I can put it. If they're playing CE...then have temples begin refusing them services, if the temple has heard of their actions.
...and so on.
The first thing you should always do in these situations is approach them outside the game with no one else around so you can make your concerns known. Usually when the GM says that he doesnt like where the game is going things change toward a more enjoyable experience. Be honest and open, listen to their own side of the story but keep in mind that you're the GM and have final say on anything. If you feel their characters are disrupting your fun or the fun of the other characters it is your responsibility to end it.
I highly suggest writing out what you want to say before you confront them. Keep it neutral sounding so you dont sound like you're accusing them of anything and they will be more responsive. At the end of your discussion hopefully an understanding will be reached and drastic action wont be needed
I would also suggest that from now on you make a rule that says you can have any kind of character with any alignment as long as you can work together.
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These aren't really powergamers. They are just being jerks. You need to tell them to knock it off. Tell them that the idea is that everyone has fun at the table, to include the other players and the GM.
This is precisely why I ban evil alignments most of the time. Too many players see it as a reason to be jerks to the rest of the party.
I would tell them:
1) All Evil characters and CN character are NPCs.
2) No more solo adventures. You wrote an adventure for the party. You aren't going to simultaneously run two or more adventures.
3) They need to share the loot with everyone. You expect the party to come up with a viable solution on their own but if it continues to make their characters unbalanced then you will implement a solution.
They probably don't realize that they are being jerks and calling them that probably won't help your case. That being said, they are being jerks and they need to be told to knock it off. They are your friends and you know the best way to talk to them.
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a few things i have to say in this matter
1. an evil character leaves the party to wander on his own. the dm says "nothing happens" the evil pc says f&~~ you buddy i find something. an evil character can create his own encounter. a high disguise mixed with some magic items and now hes jack the ripper, or just killing one guard after another. a smart pc will have a way to hide who he is to make himself more difficult to hunt down.Not without a willing DM he can't.
"You leave the group? It seems odd, but there's no one and nothing else in the world, it seems as though the world only exists when you are with the group. Or perhaps it is only you who exists when you are with the group. Either way, you're out of the game for 2 hours. Go get us pizza."
lol never underestimate a vindictive and devious dm.
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These aren't really powergamers. They are just being jerks. You need to tell them to knock it off. Tell them that the idea is that everyone has fun at the table, to include the other players and the GM.
This is precisely why I ban evil alignments most of the time. Too many players see it as a reason to be jerks to the rest of the party.
I would tell them:
1) All Evil characters and CN character are NPCs.
2) No more solo adventures. You wrote an adventure for the party. You aren't going to simultaneously run two or more adventures.
3) They need to share the loot with everyone. You expect the party to come up with a viable solution on their own but if it continues to make their characters unbalanced then you will implement a solution.They probably don't realize that they are being jerks and calling them that probably won't help your case. That being said, they are being jerks and they need to be told to knock it off. They are your friends and you know the best way to talk to them.
i totally overlooked the point made here in his number 3. if a player bullies other players in game he is actually bullying them in real life. using the game as a median in which he can upset another player and make them feel powerless. all gear in our party gets divided up and rolled for really nice items multiple people need. i would be extremely upset if i was told that i couldn't have a piece of gear because another player would kill my character. guaranteed i would kill the other character first opportunity regardless of my alignment.
this was a huge oversight of mine. im wondering if maybe this has caused your other players to leave from time to time.my group has threatened each other and for a time we started throwing pvp in when one person wasnt playing with the rest of the group. using spells to make them comply or massive subdual damage to knock them out. but this caused players to overstep and actually started causing real in game (and then out of game problems) if someone kills a character you spent a lot of time playing you are gonna get pissed. and if that character gets reincarnated or resurected there will be vengeance. our dm had to rule that we couldnt take offensive action against each other. a time saving rule imho
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Working around the problem never solves it, and this includes imposing in-game consequences. Just wastes time, and I have yet to hear of any geniune change in behavior because a DM masterfully imposed in-game repurcussions.
I flat out don't allow evil characters because it leads to the immature players using it as an excuse to be, as noted by others, jerks under the guise of "role playing." Pathfinder and the original D&D has always been about the role of a hero and solving matters as a group.
Similarly, players who go off solo without real cause just to be the center of attention for a bit should not be rewarded. Tell them they're off and focus your game on the players who don't split.
Finally, to echo others, bullying is a no.
If you're good with running a game for two players and ruining the fun for the players who might want to join but find excuses perhaps not to because of the two core players, then do nothing. Otherwise, be firm on what type of game you're running and why.
I hate alignment for many reasons but players trying to use it to act like ass hats is one of the biggest. The problem here is not min/maxing and power gaming it is players not playing well with others wich is something they should have learned in elementry school.
Talk to your players about behavior that is the only solution.
I have ZERO patience for people who insist on compromising everyone else's enjoyment because they believe they have a license to be a complete Jerks.
My first suggestion is to talk to them out of game and explain they ruin the game for everyone else. Ask them to considering actually particiapating in the game rather than trying to wreck the game.
WHEN (not if, these guys sound like tools) they will not agreee then boot them from the game and move on. I really just have zero patience for people like this.
As an alternative, just continue killing them over and over of entertainment sake.
This is a good lesson for the OP, and all other GMs really....
If you let players get away with these kind of characters you reap what you sew. I am all for being creative and having fun, but this is neither.
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"Dear Players,
You seem to be unaware that we are playing a cooperative game. If you refuse to be cooperative with the other players, I suggest you find a new GM."
Say it more nicely, but still.
But what is the refrain, friends? What is the best advice offered on this and every thread like this?
And as DrDeth says -- it is a VERY strong likelihood the reason your other 3 players are not committed to the game is because the other 2 are ruining their fun.
Heck, you might even straight up ask the other 3 players -- "If we played a game without Thing1 and Thing2, would you be more invested in playing?"
I'd bet at least one of them, if not all of them, would say yes. Which would show you that you are overvaluing these jerks' participation.
Personally - my advice would be to listen to DQ.
My own thoughts are that your power gamers are doing it wrong. Chaotic Evil is the very worst alignment for group play. CE doesn't care about anyone, anytime, anywhere. CE is selfish in the extreme.
If they were playing LE or NE, then you could maybe work with that.
Don't let them play any evil alignment if they are going to break your game. Tell them you want heroes not anti-heroes. Don't let them ruin the game for the others; I have no patience for that. Realm wrecking and ruining others fun it lame. They should also challenge themselves, if they always play the predictable bad guys you might as well hand them an old character sheet from 4 years ago when they walk in the door.
SGH
Just kill them, so they learn that playing like they have god mode on will not bring them any good. If they like to have a contest of strengh, you better make clear that the master ain't going to lose. After they have toned down you can go on as nothing ever happened.
I do my best thinking in the shower - which is why I'm revising my statement in regards to the Evil alignments, specifically Neutral Evil.
Chaotic Evil - this is the best alignment for the dick player who wants to get caught. And eventually he will get caught and asked to leave. Why would any reasonable, non-Evil, party put up with him?
Lawful Evil - this guy has a code and knows the value of group loyalty. Sure he could betray the party, but it would have to be for a very compelling reason. Generally speaking, he has no morals, but he also knows the value of adventuring as a group.
Neutral Evil - this the guy who will break your game. The crappiest part about it is that he'll collude with the DM while he does it. Unlike the LE guy, he has a plan and it doesn't include the well-being of the rest of the party. If they live, it is by the sheer grace of circumstance (or the DM has second thoughts). NE will cut and run and leave you in the lurch.
Sorry for the tangent - I just wanted to clear up my thoughts on Evil.
I agree with the people saying don't allow evil alignments. The game is just not designed for extended player vs. player conflict. If they are looking to be in conflict with the other players, and this is what they want out of the game, they should find a group where everyone wants that.
That said, if you insist on letting them play evil, think about what motivates chaotic evil npc's to follow a big-bad-evil guy - fear of death. Have a very powerful demon appear before the party, give them their missions, insist that the party must work together and divide spoils evenly, because to do otherwise is to work against the demon's best interests. He is always watching, and any deviation from his orders will result in immediate capture, torture and death.
As far as them wandering off by themslves just follow my solution, which always works:
Main group "You find a group of monsters, combat and loot occurs".
Soloist: "You encounter nothing"
Main group: another fun encounter
Solist "you encounter nothing"
Another approach:
Main Group: You have a CR 15 encounter.
Soloist: You have a CR 15 encounter.
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I think, ShadowcatX, that it would be easier to just tell the two players: "Guys, everyone else is losing out because you both keep insisting on going off solo. Can you stop it please, because I no longer see the point of devoting my time and energy between two groups of people. I'd run two sessions but I don't have the time, and the other players aren't causing me this grief, hint hint."
This.
If they don't want to play with the other players, then they can leave. It's not because the party hates them, but everybody's real life fun factor is vastly different from each others, so there's no point to trying to make everybody happy.
If you actually have the time, I'd suggest maybe taking them up on their challenge to one-up each other just go PvP against each other. They are in separate rooms, and have them fight. It actually can be very fun to cut loose and let the players get exactly what they want. Also, ask them after this is done and whoever comes out on top to see if you can use that character as a NPC baddie that the PCs need to fight at some point.
Sometimes players just don't have the any interests, and that's okay. Resolving them in a creative matter can be very fun as well (instead of just being a dick about it).
This is why I avoid evil characters - and most especially chaotic evil characters - like the plague. After all, the entire point of role-playing is to get together and do something as a group, which means working together or at the very least coexisting. Lawful evil characters at least give you something to work with, but if a player chooses to be chaotic evil he's basically saying 'I'm going to be a constant headache, diminish the fun for my fellow players and derail whatever the GM has in store for us - oh and by the way its okay that I do all that because I'm just playing my character'.
No thank you.
Explain that Pathfinder is designed to be a team effort; everyone should have a role to play in the success of the group. It is also a heroic adventure, and heroes are not Chaotic Evil, or any kind of Evil.
Player vs. Player action is a totally different style of game; if this is the way the power gamers want to play, they should play a different game, like Vampire or Munchkins or something.
If a player wants to leave the group, tell him that you are going to focus on the group first, and then handle the solo adventure via email or something....and then make it boring. If the PC decides to just slaughter civilians, have that band of uber-paladins show up to lay the smite down.
As far as them wandering off by themslves just follow my solution, which always works:
Main group "You find a group of monsters, combat and loot occurs".
Soloist: "You encounter nothing"
Main group: another fun encounter
Solist "you encounter nothing"
Another approach:
Main Group: You have a CR 15 encounter.
Soloist: You have a CR 15 encounter.
Nope, that’s exactly what he wants, a chance to hog the spotlight with a real cool combat all by his little lonesome. And if he dies? Oh Boy! a chance to bring in yet another CE overpowered PC that he’s been working on.
DeathQuaker- good post, nice advice!
I would second the talk with them individually. Specifically say "The game is supposed to be fun for everyone and it is not. I request that you not play chaotic evil or find some in character reason to cooperate with each other and the group. Otherwise I won't GM anymore."
Keep it short and simple. Then give them some time to think about it. See what happens.
We had a evil game where one player played the Chaotic Evil stupid stereo type. He was power gamer too who built his character to be able to defeat any other character one on one. Problem was action economy nailed him when the whole party revolted and took him out.
These two players are more or less cornerstones of the group, and the other three players drop in and out casually, and they both have had this competitive style ever since they first played with one another (yet they are great friends in real life), and in most other games its not such a big deal, but I'm just wondering if theres any other advice out there to help harmonise things without alienating these key players.Thanks in advance for any suggestions/ideas
Your best bet, find a new group. Perhaps more players would stick around if these two were somewhere else.
I wouldn't be trying to find a new group to play with like some other posters on here are prattling on about, especially if you are good friends with these guys and have been playing together for a number of years. I think there is a rather simple solution, talk to them out of the game and find a nice compromise and middle ground that everyone can live with. Don't be a passive-aggressive jerk in the game and try to kill their characters or try to make their gaming experience miserable.
Perhaps set some ground rules that in your campaign no PC may be Chaotic Evil, they may go Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil, leave the CE to the NPCs only. Then they get to play evil characters, but not the crazy homicidal jerks.
Open communication is the key in all relationships whether it be gaming with friends or your spouse, just keep it calm and respectful and they'll listen to your ideas/opinions.
Let us know what you decide and above all else, have fun!