So with the Rise of the Runelords AP being made into a Hardcover book, I had a thought, why not do this more often? Now I'm sure I'll get a lot of people to say "because it will ruin the AP biz" and whatnot, but hear me out. The main draw to having the Rise of the Runelords as a Hardcover is because for the most part it is out of print and almost impossible to find all of it in print. Sure, you could get the pdfs, but for most of us we like the feel of the book in our hands or we don't have one of them fancy new e-readers.
So here is my idea. Obviously, you don't put one out every year, that's ludicris. But, perhaps, they could put one out every two to three years. Paizo puts out two APs a year usually, which means that between 4 to 6 APs will be produced at a given time so there is little chance that they will ever catch up to the current one and it will allow for the oldest ones to be "dated".
My main purpose of thinking of this is because I'm really having hard time convincing myself to purchase any more Hardbacks for this game. I used to buy almost every one of the DnD 3.5 ones back in the day and I feel kind of burned. Doing this would make deciding what 3 hardcovers you would do every year as one of them is likely going to be a Bestiary. I would likely jump at the chance to purchase one of the older 3.5 APs (even Second Darkness) if it was compiled into a hardcover. Heck, I might even purchase one I already have all the books for so I don't have to go flipping through them all the time...
If anything, I'd at least like to see all of the 3.5 ones reprinted and updated if only so that I could purchase them as I kind of joined the party a bit late (when the official rulebook was in Beta test).
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Vic Wertz on why they don't make hardcover compilations:
Personally I would mind the option of spending $79.95 - $99.95 for a complete adventure path set in hardcover. Probably would be about as thick as the PFRPG core rules though.Offering a collected volume of each AP would be encouraging people *not* to buy volumes as they come out. If there's one thing you should take away from everything I've said in this thread, it's that that's a *very* bad strategy for us.
Also, your proposed price point would pretty much ensure that nobody bought it any other way, because the six volumes cost $119.94 as separate volumes ($83.94 for subscribers). Quite seriously, if we offered a product like you describe, we'd go out of business.
Vic on the hardcover RotRL being the exception and not the rule:
Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.
This is a unique circumstance.
I'm not talking about the ones that are still in print.
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All of them but RotRL are still in print.
If you mean, "yeah, but eventually they'll sell out and then they'll make a hardback," that falls under Vic's disincentives to buy them as-is. There's a lot of people that wouldn't buy, say, Curse of the Crimson Throne, if they had the expectation that it would be available as a hardback compilation, updated to PFRPG, in a year or two. Thus, people stop buying the back issues; thus, they never actually go out of print.
Frankly, I'd settle for a Pathfinder RPG conversion, since the first 4 APs were written for D&D 3.5 edition and not PFRPG. I can understand why they wouldn't do the hardcover compilation, but I'd really love to see an authorized PFRPG version or update on those early APs.
I'm just sayin'....
Frankly, I'd settle for a Pathfinder RPG conversion, since the first 4 APs were written for D&D 3.5 edition and not PFRPG. I can understand why they wouldn't do the hardcover compilation, but I'd really love to see an authorized PFRPG version or update on those early APs.
I'm just sayin'....
If we do that, then we have a lot of product in the warehouse that never goes anywhere.
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If we do that, then we have a lot of product in the warehouse that never goes anywhere.Frankly, I'd settle for a Pathfinder RPG conversion, since the first 4 APs were written for D&D 3.5 edition and not PFRPG. I can understand why they wouldn't do the hardcover compilation, but I'd really love to see an authorized PFRPG version or update on those early APs.
I'm just sayin'....
Only if my "update" you read, "books redone and re-printed to be PFRPG" you could also produce a players-guide sized, update which was basically just the stat blocks for stuff that doesn't exist in the current PFRPG bestiaries... It would almost be an NPC guide.
It would be useful for those of us who already own the 3.5 APs,and may make the stock you have more saleable.
A lot of work though.
Well it's obvious I don't have a degree in economics. However, I feel that those APs that utilize the 3.5 rules will likely either be forgotten or unused by many. Currently, if you wanted to run Curse of the Crimson Throne, you either have to use the 3.5 rules or update to Pathfinder. Yes, Pathfinder is 3.5 compatible but that doesn't mean you can just run the AP smoothly. Many rules and spells and what not have changed. All of the base classes are different as well as the core races. At this point the only people I see purchasing the older APs are individuals with a lot of time on their hands to convert the rules or people still using the 3.5 rules, and obviously collectors.
Also, think of it this way. Who is to say that by 2014-5 things haven't changed? Perhaps this is something the designers are thinking about but want to keep it from the general public so they don't commit to something they decide against later. All I can say is that if there was to be a compilation or even an update I would buy it in a heartbeat.
Vic's response makes perfect sense from a business sense, but as the fan base grows and PF continues to evolve maybe they could look at doing an AP compilation for special anniversaries. Say once every decade or for years marking a significant achievement like a key staff member working on their Xth Adventure or reaching X years with the company. You could have the fans vote on which one they want re-done.
To be honest we don't really need re-releases converting the 3.5 rule APs to PF rules as theres heaps of PF APs already and 2 newies every year. Maybe a conversion document to download, but you might be able to find a fan generated document in the respective forums for the older APs.
Like the OP me and my group were very late and missed a lot of the earlier APs and since we started our first AP Carrion Crown was finished off, Jade Regeant had started and is now finished, and theres a new one (Skull and Shackles) about to start. We're only up to book 3. I know we're a bit slow compared to every other group, but there's still plenty out there, great variety and Paizo pump them out quiet quickly that I don't think there is a need for re-release. I can't see us buying the non-PF rules APs unless there is some sort of conversion document to go with them, but I don't feel like we're missing out.
Nevynxxx, aren't there already user-made conversions of all the monsters and NPCs in the AP threads? I know Second Darkness has been converted twice in its section of the messsageboards, once to Beta rules and once to PfRPG. I just assumed people had done it for the other 3.5 APs, as well.
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Nevynxxx, aren't there already user-made conversions of all the monsters and NPCs in the AP threads? I know Second Darkness has been converted twice in its section of the messsageboards, once to Beta rules and once to PfRPG. I just assumed people had done it for the other 3.5 APs, as well.
Pretty much - you can grab fan-made conversions of all the 3.5 APs from the forum easily.
I guess that too factored into Paizo's no-reprint policy.
You could always look HERE for 3.5 to Pathfinder conversions.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Besides which, I have found that converting 3.5 to PFRPG is really not all that difficult. I'm currently running a game where we are going through an old 3.5 adventure and I simply print out the monsters from the Bestiary (or PRD) and run them as written there with minor modifications.
For the BBEG's, I just compute CMB and CMD and run them as written. I eyeball* any skills that have been combined. I have had no complaints from my players. They are all having fun.
If I were running a 3.5 AP, I would do the same thing.
So, final thought is this: We are not getting updated or hardcovers and that is fine with me. 3.5 and PFRPG are SO closely related that you can effectively run 3.5 adventures with PFRPG rules. Also, there's lots of people who already did conversions for the old AP's. So buy the old AP's if you want them.
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Every time this question comes up (and it comes up frequently), I wonder why it's not put in a FAQ somewhere.
Isn't there also the issue (alluded to by James Jacobs elsewhere) that producing the hardback version of RotRL has drawn resources away from producing new APs.
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When I first ran Rise of the Runelords the Pathfinder BETA rules came out and the players redid their characters with the new rules and I ran the game on the fly with BETA rules. I did not have to change much.
When we were playing Curse of the Crimson Throne we ran the whole AP with the Pathfinder rules. It was not that hard. Yes, I had to figure out an occasional CMB or CMD, but that was really the only hassle. Any spells came out of the Pathfinder book, and monsters mostly out of the Bestiary.
And I am playing in a Legacy of Fire campaign. I doubt that the DM is doing any real conversations and as a player I do not notice anything out of the ordinary, except that we have had our asses handed to us more times than I can count.
I'm an AP subscriber, and I'd buy compilations with errata and added content for sure.
Every time this question comes up (and it comes up frequently), I wonder why it's not put in a FAQ somewhere.
You beat me to it.
I was thinking maybe the hard cover compilizations might also be limited editions. This could help ease the costs since they might be priced a little higher and be a sought after book.
The "completist" in me would buy these, just to get the rest of the 3.5 APs up to PFRPG rules (even SD).
:)
I think the reviews for CoCT speak for themselves. There should be a hardback of this, even if the others are not done. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :)
P.S. "If" this is done and in limited print runs, please email the offer asap as well as post it. I check my emails frequently and almost never read news/blogs.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I'm an AP subscriber, and I'd buy compilations with errata and added content for sure.
I would do this too BUT it is important to note that many more people would not. These people would simply wait for the hardcovers.
I find the paperbacks work fine and running RotRL has required very little adjustment to PFRPG. The aforementioned eyeball technique has served me pretty well too.
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Well it's obvious I don't have a degree in economics. However, I feel that those APs that utilize the 3.5 rules will likely either be forgotten or unused by many. Currently, if you wanted to run Curse of the Crimson Throne, you either have to use the 3.5 rules or update to Pathfinder. Yes, Pathfinder is 3.5 compatible but that doesn't mean you can just run the AP smoothly. Many rules and spells and what not have changed. All of the base classes are different as well as the core races. At this point the only people I see purchasing the older APs are individuals with a lot of time on their hands to convert the rules or people still using the 3.5 rules, and obviously collectors.
Also, think of it this way. Who is to say that by 2014-5 things haven't changed? Perhaps this is something the designers are thinking about but want to keep it from the general public so they don't commit to something they decide against later. All I can say is that if there was to be a compilation or even an update I would buy it in a heartbeat.
I dont have a lot of time on my hands. However I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne in Pathfinder. The conversion was smooth and not a bother at all. So my experience is contrary to what you are saying here.
I have not run nor played RoTRL, CoT, SD, or LoF but would buy hardcover copies in a heartbeat as well.
Converting the other APs would mean the existing stock that we have of the non-converted APs would just sit in the warehouse, gathering dust and taking up valuable warehouse space. Many fans on the boards have converted some of the AP material to Pathfinder—you should check the individual AP forums to see.
I was thinking maybe the hard cover compilizations might also be limited editions. This could help ease the costs since they might be priced a little higher and be a sought after book.
I see where you're coming from, but it's actually a horrible idea. You're thinking, minimize the risk on the size of the print run and maximize the price per book. There are at least three problems with that.
For one, it would be going after the exact same hardcore fans that already have the APs from the subscriptions. For another, from what I've read in other threads, a hardcover needs to get bookstore browsers to pull it off the shelf and buy it.
There are lots of fixed costs -- such as all of the art, writing, layout, and editing. They have to be recouped no matter how many copies are sold, so volume matters. Therefore, maximizing profits means maximizing sales (without over-printing).
The third problem is an obscure one (to us), where bookstores will base future stock based on past sales. I don't remember the details; but basically, if one book doesn't do well, then it can reduce the number on the shelf -- and therefore the number sold -- for the next one.
I assure you that from my observation, less than 10% of people read signs. I assume the same is true of stickies.
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I don't want hardcover compilations.
Thank you Paizo for taking a hard -- and loud -- stance on it.
It upsets me (mildly) when one comes out because part of me wants to get it but a much bigger part of me is disgruntled because I bought them originally when they came out.
I was upset when they did SCAP cuz I had all the mags and didn't want to get the Hardback -- having all the mags where so many others didn't made me feel like a better customer (not that that matters to Paizo). Later, when Paizo had their first Scratch-N-Dent Sale and sold the SCAP hardcover for 50% off I bought a few (for my friends and me). And I was still kinda upset because the "additional material not in the mags" REALLY sucked.
Now with RotRL I'm in the same boat. I don't begrudge Paizo for doing it for the 10yr anniversary and to update the rules but damn, as a Charter Subscriber I'm proud to say I got all 6 volumes. Again, I'll think seriously about getting the hardcover -- IF it has material, maybe a couple side adventures, that isn't in the original AP -- but it's not a purchase I'm excited about.
And it's worse in this case. At least with SCAP the mags are still usable. What value is there in owning Pathfinder 1-6 once the Hardcover comes out?!? Those 6 volumes immediately become useless.
And if Paizo ever did Another hard cover compilation, I would probably be even more upset. Maybe if in 20 years they do another -- maybe.
So I'm glad there's no more coming.
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A suggestion:
What if, instead of Hardcover compilations, Paizo considers (years and years from now) series the way a few adventures were done in the end of the 2E run? Those "sequels" -- Keep on the Borderlands, Ravenloft, White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, Temple of Elemental Evil and even the "sorta" Return Tos: Slavers and Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff were all great -- and GREATLY received by customers.
And Paizo's done this, too, with Greg Vaughan's Isstivin triliogy.
I could see gobbling up a Return to The Crimson Throne product 10 years from now.
What value is there in owning Pathfinder 1-6 once the Hardcover comes out?!? Those 6 volumes immediately become useless.
The support articles in those issues are not being reprinted.
stuff about being displeased w/ the AP HC compilation
As a fellow GH fan, I usually align well w/ your posts, but I disagree w/ most everything you said here.
Many people do want HC compilations, and especially of the 3.5 AP's. As long as the HC is not a required purchase for a particular subscription, why would it matter to you if others got the chance to buy it?
I have the mags and the SCAP HC, and even w/out the added material, it's a godsend to have it all in one product, so I'm not constantly going back and forth between the individual issues.
I'm also a Charter Subscriber, and I'll be happy to get the RotRL HC b/c of updated rules and other new stuff. It's an option; no one is forcing me to buy it, and it in no way makes me feel like my original AP's are less worthy to own. Ross already mentioned the support articles; I tend to love most of those, and those aren't in the new compilation.
I hope Paizo doesn't wait another 20 years to do a 2nd HC compilation.
In short, I wrote this not to be a putz, but to let Paizo know your opinions on the subject are countered by another's. I have no scientific way of proving this, but I'm pretty sure your opinion, however valid, is a distinct minority on the subject.
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I dont think popular acclaim is going to play much of a role in deciding this, it seems to me it's already been decided in the negative.
Paizo have not only said they have no plans to do more, they have explicitly asked us not to ask for them and to help squash any such request (see Joanna's post above where she quotes Vic).
Paizo put out stacks of cool new stuff (nearly) every month at extremely competitive prices. The best way to get it is to sign up for a subscription (with the added benefit that you get it quicker). :)
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I was upset when they did SCAP cuz I had all the mags and didn't want to get the Hardback -- having all the mags where so many others didn't made me feel like a better customer (not that that matters to Paizo). Later, when Paizo had their first Scratch-N-Dent Sale and sold the SCAP hardcover for 50% off I bought a few (for my friends and me). And I was still kinda upset because the "additional material not in the mags" REALLY sucked.
Now with RotRL I'm in the same boat. I don't begrudge Paizo for doing it for the 10yr anniversary and to update the rules but damn, as a Charter Subscriber I'm proud to say I got all 6 volumes. Again, I'll think seriously about getting the hardcover -- IF it has material, maybe a couple side adventures, that isn't in the original AP -- but it's not a purchase I'm excited about.
And it's worse in this case. At least with SCAP the mags are still usable. What value is there in owning Pathfinder 1-6 once the Hardcover comes out?!? Those 6 volumes immediately become useless.
I don't have the original SCAP articles, nor do I have the original print RotRL (though, I did get the PDFs). I would be more than happy to lift that weight off your shoulders, just pop them in the mail. I'll even pay for shipping.
However, I do have a question for the producers. My question is this: Does the Player's Guide for the anniversary edition have recommendations for all of the APG, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat classes? And recommendations for the wide variety of Archetypes? Because that I think, would be great!
The free Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide is still in the works, but for now its focus is largely on campaign traits for Rise of the Runelords (which never got any), an overview of Varisa - ala the article in Pathfinder #3 - and advice and options to get new characters set up for the AP.
What it sounds like you'll be interested in is keeping an eye on Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends, which, along with a ton of details on adventuring in Varisia, new rules (feats, archetypes, equipment) for characters from Varisia, and new Varisian traits (of the race, regional, and campaign varieties), there's also a new feature we haven't revealed that's part of this line's relaunch. Keep an eye on the Pathfinder Player Companions and the Paizo blog in the months leading up to August for previews and more details.
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I could see them eventually doing all the 3.5 stuff and maybe Council of Thieves as collected editions SOME day. Mostly on anniversaries and the like. Such as on the 10th year of the new AP format or the 5th year of the Pathfinder RPG game. Which of course how many might be done would depend a lot on when we see PFRPG 2.0, which personally I am expecting at the 8-10 year mark of this versions life cycle.
I'm for and against the HC compilations.
1) The 3.5 APs need a conversion to PFRPG. It's that simple. :) 3.5 is outdated, the classes are radically different with Paizo's bread and butter PFRPG rules, add to this that the first 4 Paizo APs under their own banner so to speak (after Dungeon mag) deserve the update to compete the collection for us OCD folks.
2) The others don't need HC compilations imho, until they get sold out and there is a demand from the fans for it. Some of the wonky optional rules could use refinement (kingdom building, caravan rules, mass combat) but an accessory HC covering these would be sufficient.
Just my 2 coppers.
I recently cancelled my subscriptions as my tabletop group has dissolved over the last year or two BUT I would buy HC compilations of the first 4 APs. I still kept my RotR anniversary preorder along with the Magnimar book.
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I like Nate's idea above. Instead of issuing a hardback collection of an AP, making the old issues obsolete and sitting in a warehouse, make a boxset out of it. Put the original 6 issues in it, the player guide, map pack, sets of pawns/ standups and maybe add a little something new. Put it in a box with maybe some new original artwork on it. You won't get any of the old owners to buy it, but having everything in one spot may grab a new player. The only price add for Paizo would be the box. They could still the original individual items as well.
Well, for the past few years, they've offered black-Friday discounts for AP bundles. Last year I picked up the Second Darkness AP which got me all 6 modules, a flip mat, SD item cards, a darklands campaign book, player guide, and I think one other thing. It's a pretty good deal of they'll do it again this year.
I could care less if there is never a hardcover edition of Serpent Skull or Kingmaker, or ANY of the AP's under the PFRPG rules. The RotRL reprint was a miracle come true. And now all I want is a full Curse of the Crimson Throne update to Pathfinder, I dont care how you publish it, hardcover, 6 soft AP books, or bound in the stretched leather hide of demonkin. I could care less about seeing Second Darkness ever updated, and am apathetic about Legacy of Fire (although I know there are many who love this one), but come on Paizo, give us just one more exception, give us CotCT pathfinderized!