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Does increasing intelligence retroactively grant bonus languages? The rules seem to indicate that you only gain the bonus languages "when you begin play," but you only ever begin play with a given character once.
I'm hoping to get some hard evidence that says "yes," but the only thing that I can ever seem to find is developer intent implying that characters are supposed to be retroactive (so you can end up with the same character whether you made it at 1st and played through, or statted it out at 15th).
There are developer rulings saying both "Yes" and "No", so no help there.
The section of the book describing Intelligence (page 17) says that Intelligence determines your starting languages.
However, page 14 says:
Each race lists the languages your character automatically knows, as well as a number of bonus languages. A character knows a number of additional bonus languages equal to his or her Intelligence modifier (see page 17).
No distinction of starting languages, just languages known. So increasing your intelligence should give you more languages according to that.
It seems to be an "Ask you DM" thing. Personally, I rule it as yes, you do gain a new language when you improve your Intelligence score. You retroactively gain more skill points, so why not another language?
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The intelligence entry in the PRD is specific on this
"You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common."
You can get the same language increase with a skill rank in linguistics. As a GM I probably would give it to you even without the linguistics rank if you came up with a compelling role-playing explanation as there is little risk of you breaking the game by crafting a powerful Linguomancer*.
* Does anyone have any good ideas for a linguistics themed base class? My g/f is a linguist and I think I could lure her to the table with the promise of a powerful Linguomancer.
edit: I'm laughing so hard I can barely type. The other people in the coffee shop think I'm crazy and g/f is pretending to cast linguomancy spells at me to shut up.
If it seems a bit weird, just get the PC to learn the language over the course of a few weeks or require that it's something he could have picked up from the people or environments he's been around. If it's a wizard (and who else is pumping Int?) he's probably dug it out of some weird books anyway.
@ Humphey Boggard
Being skilled with a tongue isn't enough of a gift? Seems you could rule the world with such talent alone.
The intelligence entry in the PRD is specific on this
"You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common."
You can get the same language increase with a skill rank in linguistics. As a GM I probably would give it to you even without the linguistics rank if you came up with a compelling role-playing explanation as there is little risk of you breaking the game by crafting a powerful Linguomancer*.
* Does anyone have any good ideas for a linguistics themed base class? My g/f is a linguist and I think I could lure her to the table with the promise of a powerful Linguomancer.
edit: I'm laughing so hard I can barely type. The other people in the coffee shop think I'm crazy and g/f is pretending to cast linguomancy spells at me to shut up.
tome of magic: True speaker should do the job but it's 3.5
As GM, I allow it. It doesn't really have a huge impact on the game one way or the other.
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The intelligence entry in the PRD is specific on this
"You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common."
You can get the same language increase with a skill rank in linguistics. As a GM I probably would give it to you even without the linguistics rank if you came up with a compelling role-playing explanation as there is little risk of you breaking the game by crafting a powerful Linguomancer*.
* Does anyone have any good ideas for a linguistics themed base class? My g/f is a linguist and I think I could lure her to the table with the promise of a powerful Linguomancer.
edit: I'm laughing so hard I can barely type. The other people in the coffee shop think I'm crazy and g/f is pretending to cast linguomancy spells at me to shut up.
A bard or bardic archetype, perhaps using words of power, might be appropriate. Maybe throw in a few linguistic puzzles for her.
A bard or bardic archetype, perhaps using words of power, might be appropriate. Maybe throw in a few linguistic puzzles for her.
I'd second that. Bard with the perform oratory skill, linguistics ranks maxed out, and perhaps a penchant for spells with the sonic descriptor.
Warning The following is only how the DM known as Talonhawke would handle this.
I would allow you to begin learning them after a bit of time studying or at your next level up which ever happens first.
@Ravingdork - sorry for the threadjack.
@Everyone else - Good suggestions! After some thought the Linguamancer (g/f thinks it sounds more feminine) could be made by re-skinning an Arcane caster (the character sees reality as a language which has rules just like any other language and her magic works by changing the rules of that language - think Sartans in the Death's Gate novels). Individual spells get renamed/rethought/rejustified without mechanically changing (e.g. 'teleport' -> 'change preposition'). I know some of the linguists in her department play PF so I might pass this by them.
This is not RAW but at my table I play by the "Rule of the Simple". Some house-rules exist because they smooth off fiddly edges from rules.
So at my table, increases to Int work to make things easier, not more realistic. Hence... free language. You get them retroactively, just like skills. Further, I house-rule the exact same thing for headbands of Int. You get skill points when you don one, and you choose where to assign them. The skills are NOT embedded in the magic item. I don't allow changing by taking it off and waiting a day though.
Basically I want to be able to look at a character sheet and it make sense at the moment it's looked at. I don't want to have to try to figure out why there's a language missing. Or chew up a line of text indicating what skills come from such-and-such a magic item. Forget it.
How I justify this in-game is this: you have heard/seen-written samples of such-and-such a language, but you never developed the conscious ability to really use that. Suddenly you're smarter, so those subconscious memories become a little bit more accessible. Just enough that you can actually consider yourself able to use the language/skill. If you take the headband off, it's like being drunk... you sort of lose enough ability that you're no longer really able to communicate.
Probably best to say yes. Half the point of switching to the new skill system was so that it didn't matter if you started with a 17 int and went to an 18 int at 4th level or if you just started with an 18 int.
@Ravingdork - sorry for the threadjack.
Oh no worries, it's only the FOURTH such thread I've created and been unable to get a good solid answer before it died...
Probably best to say yes. Half the point of switching to the new skill system was so that it didn't matter if you started with a 17 int and went to an 18 int at 4th level or if you just started with an 18 int.
This is my personal stance as well, but I'm hoping to get something more solid/official.
Jerra: Could you link to those developer comments? Perhaps we can determine an answer by seeing which commenter has higher authority.
Jerra: Could you link to those developer comments? Perhaps we can determine an answer by seeing which commenter has higher authority.
Won't help. All were James Jacobs.
April 2010: Link For additional languages.
November 2010: Link Against gaining languages, but houeruled to do so.
September 2011: Link For additional languages.
The first link isn't a direct post of his, put someone saying he said that. Not sure if he really did, as I can't find it. It doesn't address languages specifically, but James does say "all bonuses are retroactive", and additional languages are a bonus from Intelligence.
The second link he says that as he understands it, the additional languages are only at character creation, but allows them as a houserule.
The third is specifically about Spell Mastery, saying to treat that feat just as you would "bonus skill ranks and bonus languages granted by intelligence". Since skill points are known to be retroactive, languages would have to be too.
If it helps, the most recent quote says you do gain additional languages.
Well, hearing twice 'yes cou can', and once 'officially, you can't, but I think you should' from a developer pretty much sets it to a yes for me.
The first link isn't a direct post of his, put someone saying he said that. Not sure if he really did, as I can't find it. It doesn't address languages specifically, but James does say "all bonuses are retroactive", and additional languages are a bonus from Intelligence.
Yeah, i REAAALY wouldn't trust that guy. He seems shifty... :)
Here's a more direct to the dino's mouth source Linky
Negative on that, Houston. The Dino seems shifty.THIS guy is.
I interpret the retroactive int bonuses in light of the developers stated preference for not having to know what classes/boosts were taken at any given level. That is, the idea that if I create a 10th level character and compare it to a character created at 1st and played to 10th, I should see no mechanical difference other than equipment.
If retroactive INT doesn't grant languages, then that fails, and we have to keep track of what was spent when and where.
I interpret the retroactive int bonuses in light of the developers stated preference for not having to know what classes/boosts were taken at any given level. That is, the idea that if I create a 10th level character and compare it to a character created at 1st and played to 10th, I should see no mechanical difference other than equipment.
If retroactive INT doesn't grant languages, then that fails, and we have to keep track of what was spent when and where.
Exactly. Every other stat gives retroactive bonuses, so why not Int?
For anyone (even the RAW) to require a player to track what skills and languages were gained at what level is clunky, pointless, and un-fun.
It's certainly not as if adding retroactive skills and languages is unbalancing. It simply crosses that line that analyticals (read: most of us gamers) have, where we demand that things "make sense."
This really should be FAQ'd already, and if I have to summon an augmented elder worm to get it done, then someeone's getting eaten. Rawr.
I would give them a bonus 1st level spell in their spell book. But I'd also have the specific spell be a random one that's associated with the headband giving them the int increase if it came from one. Just as a headband should have the languages it grants inscribed on it. Especially if the headband grants the Linguistics skill.
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I agree with most of you, you should get the language. If it game from an item, I would mark it accordingly, but beyond that, makes sense.
Thread-hijack: So for those of you that agree you get the bonus language, would a Wizard get a bonus 1st level spell for their spellbook?
oh god, good point...I'd say by the rules probably not, but I'd probably house rule it as yes because I think it'd be deserved
I agree with most of you, you should get the language. If it game from an item, I would mark it accordingly, but beyond that, makes sense.
Thread-hijack: So for those of you that agree you get the bonus language, would a Wizard get a bonus 1st level spell for their spellbook?
For the reasons I stated in the above post, let me approach it from this angle:
Why wouldn't he?
If his Con goes up, he gets more Hp, and better Fort saves. If his Wis goes up, he gets better Wis skills and Will saves. With his Int going up, he gets better DCs for his spells.
So why not an extra spell? I think the real hangup that most people have, is the concept that a "sudden" skill increase means "poof - a new spell appears/language is learned/skill gained," etc.
However, from a mechanical and power-balance standpoint, there's no reason not to allow all retroactive gains. Conversely, to not allow them is to add confusion to the player.
For the nitpicky crowd that wants to have the spell/language/skill make sense, I would offer this: Who's to say that the character hasn't picked up smatterings of said spell/language/skill, and now that Int is increased, it all suddenly comes together with clarity?
Come up with any explanation that makes sense, but IMO, at least allow the retroactive gain, and make the "sense" come secondarily.
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I would give them a bonus 1st level spell in their spell book. But I'd also have the specific spell be a random one that's associated with the headband giving them the int increase if it came from one. Just as a headband should have the languages it grants inscribed on it. Especially if the headband grants the Linguistics skill.
I don't think I would go so far as to say you get a specific spell or language from the item, because all the item is doing is giving the wearer the extra mental ability to either master some language they only know in passing or a spell that has been on the tip of the tongue, but can't quite get the components just right. By wearing the item, they now figured it out. But, if you take off the item, you lose that spark that allowed you to speak that language or learn that spell from your spell book, so for those purposes, you would have to notate which ones you got from the item.
Sorta like a Flowers for Algernon issue.
@TClifford
You have to specify the languages associated with the headband, or else you run into the issue of the permanently floating language. If they can just learn any language, then they can put on a +2 headband, wait 24 hours, learn a new language. Then, if they get into a situation where they need a new language, they take off the head band, then put it back on, then 24 hours later learn another new language.
How do you handle the loss of the language? If it's learned by them because they had the capacity, then they can't lose it, but then they had new capacity added when they gained the new plus to INT.
Also, it means you could 'rent' a headband for a couple of days and learn extra languages without putting in the skill points to Linguistics.
It's the same reason the headband has to specify a specific skill, not any random skill you want when you put it on. It takes away the cheese factor.
Also, it means you could 'rent' a headband for a couple of days and learn extra languages without putting in the skill points to Linguistics.
Well, you can also rent a PHD in thassalonian politics with Knowledge: history in the right headband, so having a language stuck in there too wouldn't be too odd.
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I am not saying that you don't keep track of the language and/or spell, but it would be different for each person that puts on the item. It wouldn't be a specific language or spell that comes with the item.
For example, you put it on and learn Elvish. You take it off, you can't speak it any more until you put it back on, and then you can speak it again. For someone else it might be Dwarven.
Now, the real question is...what if you gain a level and then took a rank in Linguistics to learn Elvish....what happens to the bonus language that you learn with the item?
Also, it means you could 'rent' a headband for a couple of days and learn extra languages without putting in the skill points to Linguistics.Well, you can also rent a PHD in thassalonian politics with Knowledge: history in the right headband, so having a language stuck in there too wouldn't be too odd.
Yep, I was advocating the language be stuck in the headband, not given to the wearer based on what they wanted to learn after putting it on.
I am not saying that you don't keep track of the language and/or spell, but it would be different for each person that puts on the item. It wouldn't be a specific language or spell that comes with the item.
For example, you put it on and learn Elvish. You take it off, you can't speak it any more until you put it back on, and then you can speak it again. For someone else it might be Dwarven.
Now, the real question is...what if you gain a level and then took a rank in Linguistics to learn Elvish....what happens to the bonus language that you learn with the item?
The same thing that happens with the ranks you put into stealth when you pick up a Headband +2 of intellect and it has Stealth as it's skill, they get overridden by the headband, same as the language should as well.
Again, I think anything a headband of int grants should be hard-coded at time of creation.
I think by RAW you don't gain a bonus language, I'm not sure it was forgotten in the conversion but getting the bonus language is surely in spirit ability increases are in Pathfinder.
RAW no
RAI no clue
in the general spirit of things PF, I think yes.
@ OP so I guess I'm not telling you anything new because you normally know RAW better than most of us, especially when it's about corner cases which could lead to a small advantage.
If it seems a bit weird, just get the PC to learn the language over the course of a few weeks or require that it's something he could have picked up from the people or environments he's been around. If it's a wizard (and who else is pumping Int?) he's probably dug it out of some weird books anyway.
Bard
RogueWizard
Alchemist
Magus
Witch
Ninja
For the linguist girlfriend, I think the best class to reskin would be... the truenamer!
(Substitute linguistics for truenaming skill)
I agree with most of you, you should get the language. If it game from an item, I would mark it accordingly, but beyond that, makes sense.
Thread-hijack: So for those of you that agree you get the bonus language, would a Wizard get a bonus 1st level spell for their spellbook?
Language: "A character knows a number of additional bonus languages equal to his or her Intelligence modifier."
Spells: "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook."
Entirely aside from that, the number of languages you know can be described as (Racial+INT+Linguistics ranks). The number of spells in a spellbook can't, simply because the wizard might have copied in some spells, had his book lit on fire, and then re-created it with a single 1st level spell in it. No relation to their current Int mod there.
Well, if skill points are retroactive, bonus languages aren't too much of a stretch:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
I would side with "There are things that suggest, even if they do not explicitly state, that you do, and nothing that explicitly states you do not."
I would not, however, allow a character to level up inside a dungeon, add a gained stat point in INT, and instantly know a new language that's conveniently useful. I would at least require that they go through some downtime.
I would side with "There are things that suggest, even if they do not explicitly state, that you do, and nothing that explicitly states you do not."
I would not, however, allow a character to level up inside a dungeon, add a gained stat point in INT, and instantly know a new language that's conveniently useful. I would at least require that they go through some downtime.
In general I'd agree, but not as an absolute. The character could have been studying that language for months, then finally it clicked. It's no less improbable than a wizard suddenly devising two new high-level spells in the middle of a dungeon.