What is the reset time? can you not just simply Run through the cavern? Where is the eye located? How can it see you? Maybe you should take a look at the Arcane Eye spell... it shouldn't be able to just auto detect when you enter the cavern unless it's set at the entrance, in which case you could just invisibility past it.
It's just Arcane Eye. Invisibility or Vanish work really well on it. Alternately, darkness stops it's ability to see, since it doesn't have darkvision or lowlight (it's got the same senses a human eye does). It's also got penalties for range to notice you guys, so sneaky/stealth is a possibility as well.
It's honestly not that hard to bypass it, there's at least 3 ways right there. I'm sure at least one of your group can get darkness and darkvision if you're high enough to be running into CR 9 traps.
First of all, there is no rules conflict. You've even stated yourself his math looks correct.
If you want a solution?
Resist Energy, or Resist Energy Communal.
At that level, it takes the first 20 off the top. 9x3.5 (average for 1d6) comes out to 31 damage. Heal the rest. Sprint across the chamber such. Assuming half of you make your saves each time, you'll take 0 damage whatsoever on average anyways.
Using something like dimension door to cross the entire place in 1 round will lower damage as well.
Barring that, you could also do something stupid like casting light on a bunch or rocks, throwing them all in there to create magic auras all around, then booking it through.
Tons of ways
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It really isn't an unfair trap. As per the rules, it's an appropriate CR for your group.
Now maybe you're just looking at it the wrong way. Some traps aren't meant to be disarmed, just as some monsters aren't meant to be fought.
Figure a way, out of the many presented here and any that your party's abilities and equipment allows, to get across that room.
Chances are there's something in someone's sheet that has been overlooked and the GM is hoping you'll remember.
Dispel Magic?
Any clerics in the party who can stone shape? Just build a stone "cap" over the spot where the fireball is coming from.
As for the metagaming part, what then is the "In-Character" response he would think is legit? Try it again (not expecting a repeated fireball), go the other direction and give up? Cast Spider Climb on someone and send them up to check it out?
It was a magical Fireball trap on the ceiling of a 90ft tall natural cavern chamber and the GM claims because the trap's trigger is Arcane Eye which allows unlimited range and the spell itself has a very long range we can be targeted anywhere in the large room, could not be close enough to it to search for the exact source of the Trigger or Firing Mechanism since the DC was +9 to the Perception DC due to the distance. It goes without saying that our level 8 Rogue does not have any flight options to go up and disable it either. It resets automatically.
He says it is a CR 9 Trap, even accounting for the +9 DC to the Perception check to find it due to the distance and after reading the OGC I checked his math and it looks correct. 4 for Highest Spell Level, +2 Average Damage, +1 Automatic Reset, +1 for Visual Trigger, +2 Perception DC, -1 Reflex Save.
Am I missing something? The cavern chamber is very large and the door on the far side is locked in addition to being a huge rolling disk that will take us several attempts (or taking 20) to move.
He says that it isn't meant to be impossible, just to make us think of a creative solution but damn if I can't think of one.
It's odd that the trap actually gets to aim at you in a large cavern. Most of the time I've seen an attack spell used in a trap, it gets to fire in one and only one way- say, directly in front of a door, or at one particular square below the trap (even if the area of the spell is larger, it always shoots at the same spot). If I'm misreading what you're saying and the fireball is filling the whole cavern, I apologize.
The Visual Trigger is just the method by which it knows something is there to fire at- its ability to aim anywhere in the cavern is something I've not seen before. Usually, the "attack spell" traps are placed where you don't have room to dodge because their aim is static.
Then again, I rarely read printed adventures, so perhaps things have changed and this is the norm now.
(Side note: "Creative Solutions are Mandatory" as a design philosophy bugs me for reasons like this. If your group is stumped, what happens next? Do you go back to home base and research Stone Shape to excavate to the next room?)
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If it's fireballed you already, how would you NOT know the location? Generally, a trap affecting you is a dead giveaway.
Darkvision only goes out 60ft it it has that, if it's 90ft its effectively blinded from you unless your carrying a light source.
It would be poor trap design on anyone who decided to put it there if the room wasn't well lit unless they only expected intruders who needed light, which would be silly of them and totally ineffective on those who didn't and there are nasty things that don't. If it isn't well lit trial and error of tossing stuff out there that's not illuminated retrying to pass through getting hit and then the person with the highest wisdom score tossing out a torch and watching it get blasted would be a decent fix.
If the room is well lit to circumvent that you then have to ask the question, "Was the rest of the dungeon this well lit?". If the answer to that is no then you can probably piece together a plan of action since I think most sane people in that situation would notice a contrast between a dark unlit dungeon and a well lit room that seems nigh impassible.
You are forgetting rule 0: the DM is always right.
Yeah, you're forgetting that the DM is in charge, not the rulebook.
If you can't get past it, go around it. If you can't go around it, go do something else.
Changing a rule for an encounter and making a mistake are not the same thing. In this case it appears as though the GM made a mistake. Educating the GM makes for better sessions.
Me being proactive: Before anyone calls me an "entitled player" I GM a whole lot more than I ever get to play.
Changing a rule for an encounter and making a mistake are not the same thing. In this case it appears as though the GM made a mistake. Educating the GM makes for better sessions.
Me being proactive: Before anyone calls me an "entitled player" I GM a whole lot more than I ever get to play.
What is the GMs mistake in this case?
Underestimating his players' lack of creativity, of course.
:P
What is the GMs mistake in this case?Changing a rule for an encounter and making a mistake are not the same thing. In this case it appears as though the GM made a mistake. Educating the GM makes for better sessions.
Me being proactive: Before anyone calls me an "entitled player" I GM a whole lot more than I ever get to play.
could not be close enough to it to search for the exact source of the Trigger or Firing Mechanism
You don't have to be close to a trap to check for it. You just take the penalty to the perception check for distance.
Have someone who can soak up the damage run out far enough to trigger the trap and the rest of the party do nothing but see where the fireball gets launched from. If you know where the fireball is being launched from and it is a natural cavern ie: stalagtites, stalagmites and rock pillars, keep the pillars between you and the spell origin.
Is the trap based on movement or simply the presence of something? Have the archer (if you have one) shoot an arrow in the chamber to trigger it. Shoot arrow and move, freeze during reset. Archer shoots again, move as fast as you can. Rinse and repeat.
@wraithstrike
It was a magical Fireball trap on the ceiling of a 90ft tall natural cavern chamber and the GM claims because the trap's trigger is Arcane Eye which allows unlimited range and the spell itself has a very long range we can be targeted anywhere in the large room, could not be close enough to it to search for the exact source of the Trigger or Firing Mechanism since the DC was +9 to the Perception DC due to the distance. It goes without saying that our level 8 Rogue does not have any flight options to go up and disable it either. It resets automatically.He says it is a CR 9 Trap, even accounting for the +9 DC to the Perception check to find it due to the distance and after reading the OGC I checked his math and it looks correct. 4 for Highest Spell Level, +2 Average Damage, +1 Automatic Reset, +1 for Visual Trigger, +2 Perception DC, -1 Reflex Save.
I think the party couldn't make the perception roll to find it due to the +9 DC.
The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap. The perception DC is 38
The information the OP posted was for determine the CR. That is correct.
rogue 8 ranks+3+4(trapfinding)=15. Aid another alone before including magic items, a wisdom bonus or skill focus, makes the trap findable.
I don't think it was unfair, but maybe the OP only has a perception of 15, and the GM put the trap there knowing the player could not find it on his own.
I have to take back my statement that the GM was incorrect. I was assuming that the rogue was optimized to find traps, and may not have been.
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Douse all your light sources, walk across the cavern.
Seems pretty simple ...
Not sure about the rules right now but , could you counter-spell the trap ? You mentioned the path across the room slowing you down, why exactly?also how many are in the party ?
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Have a wizard mage hand something light but heavy about 25 feet above the party.
Light but heavy?
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After at most two attacks you will know where it is coming from: fireball unleash a bolt of fire which explodes at the end of its path.
First trigger: vague sense of where it is coming from.
Second trigger: You're already looking in roughly the correct direction and see where it comes from.
If you can afford it then fly/spider climb + invisibility on your rogue would make sense.
As others have said, test it first and see if you can work out the trigger.
I think the difficulty of the trap shows more the party weakness and lack of creativity IMHO. If the group is small but optimized for dps and not well rounded this could easily be a game stopping encounter.
I do have to agree that it sounds like a "demoralizing" encounter to weaken the party before a bigger fight.
lastly I love the concept and will be using it in my own game :)
Yeah, I actually like this trap.
Do you have a caster?
why not some knowledge arcana checks to determine it must be an arcane eye triggering the spell, a spellcraft check to determine that the arcane eye can be "blinded".
That would resolve the whole OOC knowledge issue, you can then proceed with some of the above excellent suggestions.
Also, what is the reflex save? I would imagine in the realm of 20?
A decent rogue should have a good chance at evading any damage.
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I too love this trap, and will use it next time I get a chance.
This kind of situation is about finding a creative solution. The Mage Hand example would be an excellent way of getting past it. Take a small rock, throw it in the room, wait for the blast and move in. Move the rock again each turn, keeping it away from the party, and there you go.
Don't face every obstacle as either a combat or a skill check and you'll have a lot more fun.
The DC for both Perception and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Disable Device check involving a magic trap. The perception DC is 38
The information the OP posted was for determine the CR. That is correct.
rogue 8 ranks+3+4(trapfinding)=15. Aid another alone before including magic items, a wisdom bonus or skill focus, makes the trap findable.
I don't think it was unfair, but maybe the OP only has a perception of 15, and the GM put the trap there knowing the player could not find it on his own.
I have to take back my statement that the GM was incorrect. I was assuming that the rogue was optimized to find traps, and may not have been.
I would like to add that you can Take 20 on this as well. 38-20 is only +18. 3 other party members that successfully hit DC 10 would bring this down to needing only a +12.
Disabling it is a whole different issue but finding it should be relatively easy.
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Ooooooooh as a player I would LOVE this trap. This is the absolute dream for a party. Once you know this trap exists, you figure out what makes it tick, the maximize its use brutally. You find monsters somewhere? Taunt them tofollow you and lure them in the cave. Once in the room, go invisible, and let the mobs see the rest of the party through the other exits. When the critters charge, toss your tanglefoot bags or what have you to stop them in the middle of the cave. Boomboomboomboomboom... Then once you have done this enough, excavate the trap mechanism and you have a wand of fireballs with infinite charges. Not fair? No, beautiful!
As the tunnel is very long, can't you just use stone shape and close the tunnel half way up so that the fireball never gets to you?
Perhaps nail a tarp over the opening to the trap before it resets so that the trigger will just see a tarp and not those walking underneath it?
You are forgetting rule 0: the DM is always right.
Yeah, you're forgetting that the DM is in charge, not the rulebook.
If you can't get past it, go around it. If you can't go around it, go do something else.
As far as I am concerned, the DM is the rulebook. The books are guidelines to run the game but they are all at the DM's choice. As long as he/she is consistent about adjudication it is fair.
I think the dm is going for the 'traps as encounters' role. It is definately a different mentality then what we have kind of become used to recent additions, and I agree with it. I dont think a trap should be a single skill check. That is just going to get tedious. But if you are creative you can turn a trap into a whole encounter (see dungeonscape from 3.5). Those are fun to play with.
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Ok, look, the trapfinders ability to perceive and then Disable traps is not to be taken as mundane. And trap MUST be able to be disarmed with a good enough skill and roll. Mind you, maybe the rogue has to have the skills maxed out and roll a but it has to be possible.
The rogue should be able to spot the triggering mechanism, even if it’s magic. There’s no distance modifier as the rogue is going to be able to perceive the triggering edge, not the actual trap. For example, if there’s a trip wire on the floor that sets off a ballista 1000 yards away, the rogue is spotting the tripwire, not the ballista.
The same goes for the trap. The rogue doesn’t have to get to the fireball launcher to bypass the trap. He should, by means of a roll, be able to find a way to not trigger the trap. Again, taking the example of the ballista, it doesn’t make any difference that the ballista is 1000 yards away on the other side of a chasm, the rogue disarms the tripwire.
Now, yes, the DM is certainly allowed to try to make the party come up with a creative solution, one that doesn’t involve the rogue making a high roll with a maxed out skill. But if the PLAYERS can’t do so, the CHARACTERS should be able to do so by means of rolling excellent skill checks.
The cavern chamber is very large and the door on the far side is locked in addition to being a huge rolling disk that will take us several attempts (or taking 20) to move.
Depending on how long the combination of crossing the chamber, checking the door for extra traps, picking the lock and moving the door will take, the "soak up some damage" or "weaken the party" aspect may not be a reasonable option.
Searching the door for more traps and picking its lock without light or Darkvision is probably going to be prohibitively hard too, so crossing the room under the cover of darkness might have to wait for a spell refresh at least.
How long does the party have to "do" this dungeon? Is the adventure pressed for time, or is it just a static location you could come back to without expecting the residents to go "Tucker's Kobolds" on you when you return?
@DrDeth-
If I understand the original post correctly, the tripwire in your example is on the roof of the cavern, so it is not within standard viewing of the rogue.