Um... so yeah I think you hit on an important part when you mentioned your friend being spread too thin. The question is what do you want of this character?
Strong melee presence? Spells that stick? Jack of All Trades? Ranged attacks?
Also what fluff do you want? Do you want the character to be a military leader type, or a wandering minstrel? Perhaps a non-musical wanderer? Is he focused on being a conman? Sage?
There is a lot the bard can do really well. Generally I try to pick two things I want to be really good at, and 2 things I want to do well at, as well as where the bard is going to be from and how I generally want to go abut things.
Take a look at the Masterpieces from Ultimate Magic as well, if you can get access a computer and can pull it up on the PRD. They do some surprising things, and if not all of them are great, a couple are very interesting.
One of them mimics a kindof blend between Planar Binding/Planar Ally for instance; thats a pretty potent and versatile ability.
As well, you definately want to take a look at Bard Archetypes. They can take the class in pretty much any direction (rogue, fighterish, even potent offensive arcane spellcasting or healing are options).
But if you pick an area to focus in, you can be very good at it, while still maintaining a really broad list of areas you can be perfectly viable in.
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1q6r?Treantmonks-Guide-to-Bards#0
Nuff said.
It's quite out of date though, and bards got a *ton* of amazing things past the CRB.
You like skills? Great. By 10th level, a bard can easily have an effective 17 ranks per level with the right choices of Versatile performance. Even without making use of that feature at all, you have something like an effective 8.5+Int mod skills per level from Bardic Knowledge.
If you choose Oratory, Comedy, and Dance as your versatile performances, you'll use your Perform (Oratory) skill for Diplomacy and Sense Motive, Perform (Comedy) for Bluff and Intimidate, and Perform(Dance) for acrobatics. And fly. Granted, that's at level 10. But if you start out maxing Oratory or Comedy, you're already getting 2 free skills, since you're getting 3 skills-for-one rank.
Say you want to be a smooth talker, and max out Perform(Oratory). That gives you an effective 11.5 + Int mod skill ranks, 5 + Int mod of which you can spend. Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, etc. Maybe even bluff if you can't wait til 6th level to get the second versatile performance which will be Comedy. If you GM lets you re-arrange such skill points, as the creative director of Paizo has suggested, then that's great. If not, it might be worth while to put at least one rank in skills you'll be getting from VP, just for the class bonus while you wait. Once you get that second VP, you now have an effective 14.5 + int mod skills.
Oh, and you still have Inspire Courage, a lot of great spells like Gallant Inspiration, Timely Inspiration, Good Hope, Haste, Heroism, Solid Note (Immovable Rod-on-demand? nice! think of what you could do with that.), glibness (won't work with Versatile Performance, but +20 is still great), silent image, ghost sound... All that stuff the rogue wishes he had.
Just ask your GM about being able to reallocate skills after you get Versatile Performance.
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KrispyXIV and Abraham spalding both mentioned my idea with those sentence: "Generally I try to pick two things I want to be really good at, and 2 things I want to do well at, as well as where the bard is going to be from and how I generally want to go abut things." and "But if you pick an area to focus in, you can be very good at it, while still maintaining a really broad list of areas you can be perfectly viable in."
For now, that's my vision. It's nice to be good at something, but sucking at everything else isn't. Classic example would be a Fighter, skilled in combat, mostly useless during conversations and such. I don't want that.
I'd say no to ranged attacks, since I'm currently playing a Ranger. I'd prefer a change in combat style.
Would it be better to focus on spells or would I be more versatile with a strong melee presence and casting spells on the fly, when needed? Right now with my Ranger, spells really are occasional (that may be due to my playstyle and relative noobness with RP)
I can't recommend spellcasting bard. I tried once or twice. It's certainly possible, but many of the times I found myself wondering "Well, what do I do now?" The inclusion of a few direct damage spells in the later books helps this a lot, of course.
But my recommendation if you don't want to be a bardarcher is probably longsword, and maybe buckler. You can two-hand if you want (and take the -1 from the buckler), and have some extra AC in other cases.
This is, of course, if you want to keep VErsatile Performance. A lot of archetypes get rid of it, but there are a number of great combat archetypes for bards. Dervish Dancer is my favorite. Arcane Duelist is nice, but the fact that you *need* to hold the weapon in hand to cast a spell really annoys me. It makes non-combat casting really awkward.
The thing to remember about being a Bard is that you are really a support player in combat. Most of your best abilities in combat are buffs and debuffs, so make sure you are ok with playing second fiddle in combat. If your campaign is very hack and slash a Bard may be a poor choice.
Out of combat however, you are the king. You will likely be the face of the party and with VP you will be dominating almost every non-combat encounter. The only thing you can't do is disarm a magical trap with disable device. Otherwise be ready to run the game out of combat.
The only thing you can't do is disarm a magical trap with disable device.
They get Summon Monster I. (also that one spell from PFS FG that gives the ability to disable magic traps, I think).
If not, detective, sandman, and archaeologist all get it.
Thoughts on longspear compared to sword/buckler?
Those work too.
A few other things: Unless you're a caster bard, keep your Cha no higher than 16. I recommend 14. Your spells will probably be the DC-less (except for illusions, but those require actions to get saves versus).
Since you're going to be non-ranged, your strength should be at least 14, and your Con at a minimum 12. If you can swing 14 str, 14 con, and 14 cha, all the better.
Thoughts on longspear compared to sword/buckler?
It's hard to cast around, but other than that a good overall choice. You get strength and a half on damage rolls (if you go power attack you have the extra damage from that as well), and your just that little bit more out of combat which isn't bad.
True. If you plan on casting a lot of spells with saves, or you plan on being a caster-bard, you should have more than 14 Cha.
But if you just plan on buffs and utility spells, 14 is enough.
In my opinion, it comes down to whether you'll be casting spells or swinging your weapon more often. If the former, maybe 16. If the latter, probably not 16. Probably 14.
If you're a caster bard, then probably 18 (but 16 is fine)
On my bard I run a bastard sword which has the transformative property. I use it to get a whip if I need a little reach, if I don't have space the extra damage is nice.
My problem is I have so much to do. Every round I am faced with the choice between 2-3 actions that will have a big impact. Singing/Haste/Good Hope/Melee are all excellent choices. I've tended to shy away from spells that require saves in favor of guaranteed results. At 8th level you can drop everyones saves by 2, so at that point I will probably do more save or suck actions.
Harmonic Music is an excellent feat, as you can maintain singing as a free action while casting spells.
Harmonic Music is an excellent feat, as you can maintain singing as a free action while casting spells.
Sounds like crap to me since you can already do that.
"Whenever you cast a spell while you are maintaining a bardic performance, you can maintain the bardic performance for that round without expending one of your rounds of performance for the day. In addition, you can switch from one bardic performance to another as a swift action when you cast a spell while maintaining a bardic performance."
At 8th level:
Start Dirge of Doom as a move action, debuffing saves by 2
Cast save or suck as standard action
use swift action to swap to inspire for your party.
Still sound like crap?
That isn't the same as what was suggested. However it still sounds like crap since at level 13 you could do that anyways.
Versatile performance isn't a feat -- it's a class feature. It kicks in at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18.
Longsword and buckler is an excellent combination for a Bard. If you find yourself wanting a bit more damage you might consider a dip into dragon disciple.
Arcane Strike is an excellent feat for a bard to have as is lingering performance (in fact I suggest these two as your first level feats if you play a human -- if you don't play a human consider the arcane duelist archetype to get Arcane Strike and take lingering performance still).
You don't need to use an instrument at all. You just turn Inspire Courage on. The instrument idea is mostly a leftover, and the PF bard is much different.
I've had a lot of luck in the past with combat-focused Bards. Since your spell progression isn't as fast as a full-caster, you can start with 14 Cha and say... 17-18 Strength, and all you have to do is make sure you have a Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 by 7th, +4 by 10th, +6 by 13th, just to keep up with bonus spells per day.
Unless you want to use Bard spells with save DCs. Then, you're inherently behind a full-caster due to progression, and will need to focus on Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus to catch up.
As for combat...
-Arcane Strike does just as much as Weapon Specialization starting at Bard5.
-Heroism stacks with Inspire Courage. At 5th, that's +4 to hit!
-You can Haste your party. Starting at 7th, you can Inspire and Haste in the same round.
-Dragon Disciple becomes an option later, for the Strength boost.
-You still get tons of skill points.
I also agree that Treantmonk's guide is quite out of date.
-Matt
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I actually prefer NON-range archers; just pick up your whip that you're randomly proficient in for low levels and use it while you can. Around 8ish any feats you invested in the bard's combat abilities get a little wasted; they'll fall behind and you'll have better things to do every combat. Spear just requires arcane strike and combat reflexes, so I'd prefer that to archery as well.
Under no circumstances should you sword-and-board; Spear + Combat Reflexes is far better at damage mitigation than having a shield. The same can be said for using a whip. Being a half-elf or human with net proficiency is the best, but eats a feat (people don't realize quite how powerful nets are; I believe Treatmonk mentioned this as well).
Here's a Level 7 Support Bard I'm playing that might give you some ideas:
Male Human Bard 7
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +12
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DEFENSE
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AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 16. . (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 31 (7d8)
Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +9
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OFFENSE
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Spd 60 ft.
Melee Rapier +11/+11 (1d6+5/18-20/x2)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +11/+11 (1d8+4/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance (move action) (23 rounds/day), Bardic Performance: Countersong, Bardic Performance: Distraction, Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 20), Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3, Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +2, Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 20)
Bard Spells Known (CL 7, +11 melee touch, +11 ranged touch):
3 (3/day) Confusion (DC 20), Good Hope (DC 20)
2 (5/day) Mirror Image (DC 19), Silence (DC 19), Blur (DC 19), Invisibility (DC 19), Glitterdust (DC 19)
1 (10/day) Remove Fear (DC 18), Hideous Laughter (DC 18), Grease (DC 18), Charm Person (DC 18), Feather Fall (DC 18), Liberating Command, Saving Finale (DC 18), Vanish (DC 18)
0 (at will) Read Magic (DC 17), Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Unwitting Ally (DC 17)
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 20/24
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 20
Feats Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Brew Potion, Improved Initiative, Lingering Performance, Skill Focus: Use Magic Device, Spellsong
Traits Dangerously Curious, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19, Appraise +7, Bluff +13, Climb +5, Craft (Alchemy) +7, Diplomacy +19, Disguise +13, Escape Artist +6, Fly +19, Heal +2, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Knowledge (Geography) +10, Knowledge (History) +10, Knowledge (Local) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +10, Knowledge (Nobility) +10, Knowledge (Planes) +10, Knowledge (Religion) +10, Perception +12, Perform (Act) +9, Perform (Comedy) +9, Perform (Dance) +19, Perform (Keyboard Instruments) +9, Perform (Oratory) +19, Perform (Percussion Instruments) +9, Perform (Sing) +9, Perform (String Instruments) +9, Perform (Wind Instruments) +9, Sense Motive +19, Spellcraft +13, Stealth +9, Survival +2, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +23
Languages Celestial, Common
SQ Antitoxin (vial), Bardic Knowledge +3 (Ex), Cold weather outfit, Lore Master (1/day) (Ex), Versatile Dance +19 (Ex), Versatile Oratory +19 (Ex), Well Versed (Ex)
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (20), Chain Shirt, Crossbow, Light, Rapier; Other Gear Alchemist's Lab, Portable, Antitoxin (vial), Bedroll, Bell, Blanket, winter, Candle (5), Canvas (sq. yd.) (5), Case, map or scroll (17 @ 0 lbs), Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Cold weather outfit, Drill, Fishhook, Flask (8), Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Handy Haversack (88 @ 89.5 lbs), Headband of Alluring Charisma, +4, Ink (1 oz. vial, black), Inkpen, Manacles, Mirror, small steel, Paper (sheet) (10), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, Pouch, belt (4 @ 0 lbs), Rations, trail (per day) (7), Ring of Wizardry I, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Sack (empty) (2), Scroll: Bless, Scroll: Comprehend Languages, Comprehend Languages, Comprehend Languages, Scroll: Darkvision, Scroll: Daylight, Scroll: Endure Elements, Endure Elements, Endure Elements, Scroll: Faerie Fire, Scroll: Fly, Scroll: Glide, Scroll: Haste, Scroll: Longstrider, Scroll: Obscuring Mist, Scroll: Obscuring Mist, Scroll: Remove Fear, Remove Fear, Remove Fear, Scroll: Restoration, Lesser, Restoration, Lesser, Scroll: Restoration, Lesser, Restoration, Lesser, Restoration, Lesser, Scroll: Shield, Scroll: Sound Burst, Scroll: Stone Call, Scroll: Unseen Servant, Scroll: Ventriloquism, Sewing needle, Signal Horn, Smokestick (2), Soap (per lb), Twine (50'), Vial, ink or potion (5), Wand of Air Bubble, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Magic Missile (CL 5), Waterskin, Whistle, Signal, Whistle, Silent
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Antitoxin (vial) - 0/1
Bardic Performance (move action) (23 rounds/day) - 8/23
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) - 1/1
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds - 0/1
Rations, trail (per day) - 0/7
Smokestick - 0/2
Wand of Air Bubble - 0/50
Wand of Cure Light Wounds - 6/50
Wand of Magic Missile (CL 5) - 4/50
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Antitoxin (vial) If you drink a vial of antitoxin, you get a +5 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour.
Alchemical Power Component
Like antiplague, this substance can augment certain healing spells.
Neutralize Poison (M): Add +2 on your caster level check to neutralize poison on a target creature. Antitoxin has no effect when you cast the spell on an object.
Bardic Knowledge +3 (Ex) Add + 3 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (move action) (23 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 20) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 20) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Cold weather outfit +5 Fort save vs. cold weather.
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2r after you stop concentrating.
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Take 10 on knowledge checks, and 1/day take 20 as a standard action.
Spellsong Combine spellcasting and bardic performance
Versatile Dance +19 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Dance skill for Acrobatics or Fly checks
Versatile Oratory +19 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
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Alfred (paladin/cleric)
Salamon(infiltrator)
Gasbar (oracle)
Filo (wizard)
Puex (barbarian)
Devrick (sorcerer)
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Bards are able to fill a lot of roles because their performance fills in the gaps. You don't need full BAB when your performance gives you bonuses to hit and damage, and you don't need more than 6+int skills per level when versatile performance gives you two skills for the price of one. The spells and knowledge checks are icing on the cake.
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It honestly depends what you want to do. A half-orc bard with a greataxe or falchion will be able to effectively pull off melee combat, while a sword and board bard will be more defensive, and will often not shine in the damaging role. If you're going melee you still want combat feats: Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus are all good picks.
As for spells, buffs are great, and grease is a great spell in general. Later on your debuff spells will suffer when compared with a wizard's because you don't have as many levels of spells, but you will have tools like Dirge of Doom to alleviate that slightly.
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The thing is I don't know what I want to do! I started with the Rogue in mind, but it's mostly disappointing. Bard is an option. Cleric (or Oracle of Life, still not sure what's the "best") is an option as well.
There are so many choices, and it's intimidating.
Anything can be optimized, even rogues. Play what you want and keep an open mind.
If you want to see a cool rogue, try running a half orc fighter/rogue with an orc double axe. Take the tusked trait, racial or regular, I also take Tattooed. Go for high dex/high strength, 12 con minimum, tank the rest. Tusked gives you a natural attack bite. Your first three levels are fighter as follows:
Fighter1 TWF/ Power Attack
At first level you're getting primary and offhand attacks as well as a bite. Hitting will be hard, but hopefully you have enough strength to make up for it.
Fighter2 Cleave
Fighter3 Cleaving Finish
At this point get a sash of the champion, you can now wear plate unhindered and have all (or at least most of) your dex apply to your AC. If you can get it, stick mighty cleaving on one end of your weapon. Now when you have to move and attack you're able to score possibly three hits (the last two against the same guy if the first one hits). I like this weapon/feat combo because it allows you to either get your max amount of hits out there when you later get your sneak attack, or it allows you to two hand it if you're just going to charge/cleave/mighty cleave.
After this it's all rogue. I like dodge and mobility because as the rogue you're often on the hook for getting into position for sneak attack:
Rogue1
Rogue2 Minor Magic - Detect Magic/ Dodge
Rogue3
Rogue4 Combat Trick: ITWF/ Mobility
Rogue5
Rogue6 Major Magic - Vanish or Shield/ Iron Will
I love the magic tricks because I love dispelling strike, you might not like it so swap those two out for whatever you want.
Just know your character build ahead of time. Don't take anything unless you know it's part of your build.
I agree with mergy. But one suggestion: if you are the main damage dealer in the group and plan on running your character for some time: Consider a strong dervish dancer bard who fights with a two-handed weapon (an archeype from Ultimate combat).
At 6th level you inspire courage also acts as haste but it is just getting better over time. Your speed develops (already +10 ft. at first level).
Important: If you have more melee/ranged damage dealers in the group, don't take this archetype. Inspire courage multiplied ist just better.
After 12 levels switch to paladin (if you can stand paladins). I just built a level 14 character (2 levels of pally, don't forget the silver smite bracelet) and he can almost do everything. He has good skills. His saves (no feats, but with gear) are at 22/20/21 and his dpr is almost similar to a two-handed fighter of the same level. But everything else is better: 50ft. movement (could be more), full attack during a single move. And he can cast spells.
Granted, the barbarian will be a liitle bit better at saves and damage-dealing but he is not that versatile.
It smells like cheese a bit. A lawful good tattooed half-orc bard who dances around like Fred Astaire with a falchion in his hand.
That isn't the same as what was suggested. However it still sounds like crap since at level 13 you could do that anyways.
Really? It sounds tailor made for magic-heavy bards or multiclass bard/other spellcasters. Every time you cast a spell in battle your performance is extended another round? Sounds excellent to me.
That isn't the same as what was suggested. However it still sounds like crap since at level 13 you could do that anyways.Really? It sounds tailor made for magic-heavy bards or multiclass bard/other spellcasters. Every time you cast a spell in battle your performance is extended another round? Sounds excellent to me.
A magic heavy bard is going to probably have maxed out charisma meaning he's going to have more rounds of bardic music than he'll need in the first place. It's diminishing returns to invest another feat into it for him. Especially for the feat in question. Lingering performance can triple what he gets from each round of bardic performance. This will allow him to skip paying for one round by casting a spell. Lingering performance will be more than enough to handle his needs.
The multi-classed bard is better served with lingering performance since that will triple his use without requiring the expenditure of another resource. The only real benefit in this case is going to be the swift action switch and even that is a pretty hard to use corner case, especially if they aren't taking that many levels in bard in the first place.
All in all just not a very good feat.
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I don't normally say this, but:
1. Play a bard.
2. Pick one style of combat (ranged/melee/spell).
3. ????
4. Profit!
THW and shiels are not exclusive: get improved shield bash, a buckler and a long spear. Spiked gauntlet in addition if you like. Then you got offense plus defense for the small price of -1 to attack :-)
Bards are great!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I think an all Dex shield/TWF bard is a viable switch hitter. I would grab a paladin level at 7 to get free Precise Shot off an archetype and smite (mostly to overcome DR and for the huge to-hit boost).
1 Weapon Finesse
3 TWF
5 ISB
7 PBS (Precise Shot)Pally 1
9 Rapid Shot
11 Manyshot
13 Arcane Strike (Pally 2-4)
15 ITWF
17 Shield Slam
19 Shield Master
By level 3 you are solid in mellee. By level 5 or so, with Agile weapons you have Dex to damage. By level 9 you have solid archery. Level 13 you can move and full attack if need be. Level 16 you can have nearly unlimited smites through Oath of Vengeance, great saves, awesome AC.
The build isn't very MAD and does what I think a bard is a good chassis for: competent dabbling. Plus, you can do it, and do it well, on a halfling.
You guys forget one thing:
Long spears and other reach weapons all except whips are not finessable.
Also like ranged weapons they suffer from the +4 softcover rule.
I was looking for that rule in the CRB a few days ago and failed to find it. Would you let me know where it is?You guys forget one thing:
Long spears and other reach weapons all except whips are not finessable.
Also like ranged weapons they suffer from the +4 softcover rule.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
The bit about long spears not being finesse weapons only matters if you intend to try to finesse weapons. Bard with long spears aren't supposed to load up the Dexterity.
I was looking for that rule in the CRB a few days ago and failed to find it. Would you let me know where it is?You guys forget one thing:
Long spears and other reach weapons all except whips are not finessable.
Also like ranged weapons they suffer from the +4 softcover rule.
It's at the description of cover.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.