Mezheven's page

Nope thats ok. Its a learning curve in this game and also with more knowledge you see more possibilites and can decide better what to do.

Of course as rogue/ninja you can depend on flanking and this can suck in some parties, but then talk to them.

Bufing your AC some would probably be best then.
Dodge, Osyluth guile and offensive defense are the best feats for that.
Sneak attack dice number and CHA modifier on AC is great, especially for ninjas. Osyluth guile needs fighting defensively though and then works best with some ranks in acrobatics and combat expertise.
Since you are flanking and only need to hit flat footed AC, its easier to hit, don´t forget that too. And if there is someone not wearing a full plate who you don´t hit on high rolls, ask you GM about it. They forget sometimes.

As a ninja with ki pool you can get an extra attack for one ki point.
Opening volley with a shuriken can give you +4 on this attack if the second is a melee attack.

Can't find anything on "Osyluth Guile", sigh

I'll post a new list of feats/tricks soon, most likely around being mobile and Scout archetype. Just wondering how useful/fun to play it will be.

Mezheven wrote:

What about Power Attack? Is it worth it in the long run? How can I increase my dmg otherwise?

In non-TWF situations, Power Attack is amazing. If you are attacking two handed with a katana PA will help you until you deal an average of 60 damage per attack. That is to say, "pretty much always."

Quote:

If I sum it up, Scout Archetype is a good thing as well, since it's makes me even more mobile. Is it really useful, knowing I'll wait for a team-mate to attack first for flanking happiness?

If you want your ally to maneuver around and make sure you are flanking, go TWF. If you want to move around the battlefield harassing casters, picking off stragglers, and setting up flanks for others, go Scout. Your personal damage per round isn't going to be great, but your ability to contribute to the overall party damage (and general effectiveness) may actually be greater. You'll also be better able to fight on your own, which is a major weak point of many Rogues.

If you do go this route, I'd recommend against Pressure Points at level 8. It is very good when you are doing a lot of attacks on a single target, which is pretty much the exact opposite of a Scout's tactics. You'll be better off with Flurry of Stars (for a nice opener to combat) or Slow Reactions (use your mobility to make mobility easier for your allies).

You know, I'm even more confused. Can't decide. Current party should be fine dmg wise. Plus, it's really a question of what I want to do.

I just don't see the advantage of being mobile, with Scout Archetype and related feats. It's hard to fight on my own, AC isn't great, HP isn't huge. Plus, being 15 feet away from an enemy doesn't really protect me, he will move and I'll take it up the arse. Flanking his nice for allies too.

Still, I feel TWF is more of a Fighter/Barbarian thing.

I really suck lol :(

I think the value of Power Attack here is going to depend heavily on whether he goes Scout, and concentrates more on skirmishing, or goes for full attacks. If he goes Scout, moving in and out of combat and taking single big swings, then Power Attack is great. In this case, he'd probably want to switch out the two weapon fighting stuff for dodge, mobility, and other options that improve his primary tactic.

If he is going to concentrate on two weapon fighting, I totally agree with calagnar that it isn't worth it. I'd drop Power Attack for some of the optional choices like Iron Will, or maybe Quick Draw (so you can throw shurikens from both hands to start a fight, then draw your weapons and get attacking).

For the weapon, has Kusarigama been considered? As a double weapon, it can easily switch from two handed attacks to two weapon and can be held in one hand when necessary. It also gets reach (which is nice for fighting those bigger, late game enemies) and trip (might as well give it a shot on a low level charging humanoid). It isn't actually going to be a big improvement, but I would really like to see a character that can use one effectively. And this super high strength, two weapon fighting Ninja is pretty much my only hope.

EDIT: On Power Attack, it is basically a -5% damage for 1 or 2 damage exchange. Really roughly, you are looking at it becoming a hindrance after attacks deal 30 or so damage a hit (20 off-hand, 40 main hand). Make of that what you will.

I just read the whole topic again and I noticed I overlooked your post earlier.

You may be right, I'm trying to do too many things at once. Let's forget my insanely high stats. I've been thinking and and I'm afraid the -2 on atk rolls from TWF is going to hurt. With my Ranger, I hit with my main attack, but missed with the 2nd, and it was worse with Rapid Fire and/or Deadly Aim. Knowing the Rogue BAB is slightly lower than a Ranger's, maybe it would a good idea to drop TWF altogether. The other path could be Dodge> Mobility> Spring Attack. Maybe Step Up and Following Step.

What about Power Attack? Is it worth it in the long run? How can I increase my dmg otherwise?

If I sum it up, Scout Archetype is a good thing as well, since it's makes me even more mobile. Is it really useful, knowing I'll wait for a team-mate to attack first for flanking happiness?

These are suggestions for optimizing your character mechanically. Don't worry about them if you're more concerned on the image of your character. To be honest though a 37 point stat buy is pretty ridiculous and you should probably suggest going for much less as no matter what your characters are going to be overpowered. Because you have such a high stat buy is the only reason this character is viable mechanically.

If you're looking for the best build mechanically then drop your whole two-weapon fighting scheme and simply focus on two-handed wielding your katana. DPR wise you will do more than dual-wielding and it will also be less feat intensive.

If Dual-Wielding you should stick with two of the same weapon though and take a four level dip into fighter(weapon master). It will help you to meet feat requirements early and give you access to heavier armors if you don't care about using acrobatics. You will lose 2d6 sneak attack but will actually have higher DPR.

Scout archtype is also useful. Yes you will lose Uncanny Dodge but you should be the one reacting first with reactionary trait and your high dex. You should also be the one flanking not getting flanked. Scout allows you to move into flank position and still deal effective damage.

I'm aware I rolled some high stats. Still, it fits within the limit set by our GM.

I assume TWF is only viable with high stats or with a Fighter, who has a lot of feats. I'm really wondering what I should do with a Ninja.

Let's say I keep those stats but drop WTF, what can I do instead?

I see my character as a Rogue with special training, not as a full-fledged Ninja. That's too cheesy. See the Katana as an exotic weapon, like a magical sword.

Like Mergy said, the idea is the use the Katana two handed for single attack, and with a Spiked Gauntlet for TWF. The Gauntlet is very usefull since I don't have to ready it, like a sword or dagger and it's stylish as well!

Yeah, I could optimize a bit more by using 2x the same weapon with Weapon Focus. The way I see it, this build is versatile compared to a one trick monkey. True, I won't be the best all the time, but I'll do something most of the time.

I have to admit I'm a bit concerned about Power Attack, since I don't have much BAB. Maybe I could drop TWF and get more 1 handed stuff. Or TWF without Power Attack.

For Scout Archetype, it's really a matter of Uncanny Dodge usefulness as an ability.

Hello again!

The following build is the result of all the advice, tips and suggestion from my previous topic "Creating a brand-new Rogue with the Core Rulebook / APB / UC"

Need more feedback ;)

Human +1 Feat and 1 skill rank/lvl, +2 to a stat (Str)
+1 skill rank from Favored Class

Str 18
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 15

Two-Weapon Fighting with Katana and Spiked Gauntlet. Shuriken and Daggers for ranged attack.

The idea is to lay low and flank whenever it's possible.

Current list of feats and tricks/talents (work in progress):

01 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
02 - (Vanishing Trick)
03 - Power Attack
04 - (Offensive Defense)
05 - Extra Ki
06 - (Forgotten Trick)
07 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
08 - (Pressure Points/Flurry of Stars/Slow Reactions)
09 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 - (Invisible Blade)
11 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
12 - (Opportunist Rogue Talent)
13 - Improved Critical
14 - (Evasion)
15 - Two-Weapon Rend
16 - (Improved Evasion Rogue Trick)
17 - Critical Focus
18 -
19 -
20 -

~Combat Expertise
~Dodge

I have 10 skill ranks for each level. I still want more. Am I obsessed? Should I try to get more?

Thinking about the Scout archetype. Just not sure if I want to ditch Uncanny Dodge and the improved version.

Party will most likely look like this:

Monk
Eldritch Knight (?)
Witch
Samurai (ronin)
Ranger or Alchemist

On a side note, I'm wrapping up my background and RP stuff. I might post it.

As promised, I'll post my Ninja spec in a new topic.

Thanks everyone for your support and tips.

Please check it out!

I didn't know this topic was still on fire ;)

I'm currently working on a pure Ninja, with a lot of tips from Mergy. I'll post it when it's ready. My current ended way faster than expected so I had to start working on a new character real fast.

On a side note, I'm not sure about my backstory. GM doesn't want some cheap paper so if anyone has some idea, go for it. Next aventure will be Curse of the Crimson Throne. Basic idea: my character is from Korsova. Might go with the Missing Parent backstory. Ends up being coached by an old master ninja (like old, been in the city for a while, kept to himself, ninja stuff is secret and s#@%). He gives me his Katana. So I have my personal reasons to go after the main villain in this story path. It explains my particular training + exotic weapons. Might start young too, maybe 20ish. Is it too cheese?

-Mez

The thing is I don't know what I want to do! I started with the Rogue in mind, but it's mostly disappointing. Bard is an option. Cleric (or Oracle of Life, still not sure what's the "best") is an option as well.

There are so many choices, and it's intimidating.

Bards are able to fill a lot of roles because their performance fills in the gaps. You don't need full BAB when your performance gives you bonuses to hit and damage, and you don't need more than 6+int skills per level when versatile performance gives you two skills for the price of one. The spells and knowledge checks are icing on the cake.

Basically, I pick up a weapon and attack when it's possible, with Arcane Strike. No need for combat oriented feats as the performance bonuses are plenty? Is the net a viable option, as a side weapon maybe? Would you prefer a two-handed weapon or one-handed/shield?

About spells, is it better to just focus on buffs and stuff like grease and avoid DC check spells on the enemies (debuffs)?

I'm impressed by the number and quality of the posts. Have to admit, it f%%&ing scares me, so many things to understand with the Bard. So many feats...

Anyhow, my next campaign will be Curse of the Crimson Throne. Haven't read the thing though. Might help me figure out which kind of campaign it will be.

I guess the Longsword/Buckler combo is for decent dmg and AC? With both hands taken, I can play an instrument I guess.

Any thought of Feats, aside the Versatile Performance feat and the likes (which I really don't know, I'd better read all the posts again :o )

Thanks Hayato Ken!

If SA is the bulk on my damage, why should I bother with TWF? I would work on mobility (Spring Attack), or stuff like Step Up and the like.

The Swashbuckler Archetype seems nice. Falchion (2d4 18-20x2) to go with it?

KrispyXIV and Abraham spalding both mentioned my idea with those sentence: "Generally I try to pick two things I want to be really good at, and 2 things I want to do well at, as well as where the bard is going to be from and how I generally want to go abut things." and "But if you pick an area to focus in, you can be very good at it, while still maintaining a really broad list of areas you can be perfectly viable in."

For now, that's my vision. It's nice to be good at something, but sucking at everything else isn't. Classic example would be a Fighter, skilled in combat, mostly useless during conversations and such. I don't want that.

I'd say no to ranged attacks, since I'm currently playing a Ranger. I'd prefer a change in combat style.

Would it be better to focus on spells or would I be more versatile with a strong melee presence and casting spells on the fly, when needed? Right now with my Ranger, spells really are occasional (that may be due to my playstyle and relative noobness with RP)

That ranger is fragile because you started him with a constitution of 10. Constitution is the only stat that is important for every single class, and I've me many people that don't give it the attention it deserves. With a 20 point-buy I nearly always give my characters a constitution of 14; at the very least I'll buy a 12.

A bard has nearly as many skills as a rogue, and the addition of spells will provide more utility, not less. You're right, however, that a rogue is a simpler class than a bard. If you decide to make a bard, make a post asking for advice and I'm sure you'll get a lot of information to help you along.

Mike, weapon finesse 'done right' (I'm assuming you mean with two-weapon fighting and agile weapons?) takes a long time to succeed, and while your AC may be a few points higher, your damage will not, on average, be comparable. Full attacks are much more difficult to pull off than single power attacks, and the fact that a character will likely only get his first agile weapon after level 5 means you've got a lot of sucking to look forward to.

Dervish dance will almost equal your 'all-strength power attacking lunkhead in damage', but it costs an extra two feats.

I learned it the hard way with my Ranger. I wrongly assumed I would rarely get hit as a ranged damage dealer. God I was wrong! On a side note, it was my first character and basically my first real RP experience ;)

I forgot to mention I really like skills. Having ranks in a lot of them, therefore being useful out of combat, is something I really like. I have a fix on pickpocketing and Sleight of Hand stuff. If there's a way to do those things as well, that's would be great!

Many of you have probably read my topic about the Rogue. While I haven't given up on that class, I'm exploring others as well. Since the Bard suggestion came up several time, I'm really curious.

I also mentioned a friend of mine playing one in our game. And he sucks. My guess is that he tried to do too many things, none of them at their full potential, thus ending up doing very few overall. He mostly casts Haste and do some healing here and there. Must be very boring for him!

I'd rather play a single class character(no multiclass). That's just a personal choice, please respect it.

There are several archetypes out there, I'm open about them. I don't have the Ultimate Magic book though, no idea if there's any good stuff in there for Bard.

Thanks in advance!

I may start a topic for the Bard. I guess my friend just failed with his, it doesn't mean the class is bad!

I really don't understand the fuss about Weapon Finesse vs damage done. Assuming I start with 18 Dex, the +4 will go on my dmg roll right? Plus, I don't see TWF as a viable option for the Rogue, since you mostly want to wait for another melee to attack a mob first, then go in the do Sneak Atk - you don't want to wait there and get hit in the face imo.

Hey Kodger, thanks.

I do very much like the guide as well, but for the purpose of reproducing a rogue's abilities the urban ranger does a better job. For PFS, however, the guide is amazing, because there is never a need to wonder if you'll be able to use your class abilities.

Swashbuckler has some good things going for it, and Dervish Dance does improve Weapon Finesse, although I'll never be a fan of the feat without a very good reason to take it.

Mezheven wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Weapon Finesse is a trap feat because you're spending a feat to do less damage. Agile weapons are also a trap in my opinion, because you're spending a +1 just to do the same damage as a strength weapon.

Rogues themselves are indeed a trap, and for the last time I think you should play an archaeologist bard instead. :)

I started reading about it. More to come :)

I'm still disappointed, can't believe the Rogue class is so meh.

Remember, your character can be a rogue without a single level in the rogue class.

I forgot to ask, what mistakes do you feel you made with your ranger?

He's fragile. That may be due to my fellow adventurers being unable to hold the mob in place, and protecting me carefully.

Str 14
Dex 20
Con 10 (9 now, lost 1 permanently)
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 10

I'm currently lvl 9. My feats are:
Deadly Aim
Manyshot
PBS
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus Longbow
Missing a feat for 9th lvl. No clue so far.
Animal companion is a wolf. Haven't been able to use it properly so far.
Favored Terrains Forest +2, Underground +4
Fav Enemies Humanoid Goblin +2, Undead +4
High skills are Climb, all 3 knowledges, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Swim. Some ranks in Handle Animal, Heal.

Don't bash me so hard lol

As for the Rogue, again, I mostly want a lot of skills, I feel like playing a thief, doing a lot of pickpocketing, Bluff, Disable stuff, some diplomacy as well. Rogue seems the best for that. Seems more simple than the Bard, too.

Weapon Finesse is a trap feat because you're spending a feat to do less damage. Agile weapons are also a trap in my opinion, because you're spending a +1 just to do the same damage as a strength weapon.

Rogues themselves are indeed a trap, and for the last time I think you should play an archaeologist bard instead. :)

I started reading about it. More to come :)

I'm still disappointed, can't believe the Rogue class is so meh.

Weapon Finesse is a trap feat in most cases, and a longspear is a much better choice than a whip, especially because rogues aren't proficient with whips.

Why is Weapon Finesse a trap feat? Since most of the Rogue's skills use Dex, it's nice to have high Dex and use that bonus on melee. Or I am wrong?

moon glum mentioned the Bleeding Sneak Attack Rogue Talent, what are your thoughts about that one?

I still haven't given up on the Rogue, so I checked Archetypes today:
- Knifemaster is interesting, since Sneak Attack is the big feature of the class.
- Cutpurse
- Bandit

Just wondering if those Archetypes really give an edge the the Rogue.

I was about to ask about Rogue archetypes. There must be 1 or 2 that ain't bad!

Even with my GM letting me use the Ninja, I just don't feel compelled with the class, sorry.

As for the Rogue, again, I'm aware it's all about flanking an opponent but that's pretty much it.

So, maybe something like this:
Dodge (lvl 1) > Mobility (lvl 3) > Spring Attack (lvl 5)
Wind Stance and Lightning Stance?
Then Improved Critical (lvl 11, hurrr)
Critical Focus (lvl 13) > Critical feat

As for Trapfinding getting canned with most of the archetype, can it just be replaced by max ranks in Disable Device, plus the Trap Spotter Rogue Talent?

Might as well say it: I could end up dropping the Rogue for something completely different, like the Cleric, since I never saw someone play one (not a good argument, I know).

Keep in mind, and this should go for every character you ever make. The name of your class is not who your character is. The class rogue in this game is a description of class abilities, no more and no less.

If a ninja's class abilities fit what you want your character to do better than the rogue's, go with it. If someone asks you what your profession is, say what your character thinks of himself as. Chances are most fighters don't call themselves fighters. They may call themselves mercenaries, soldiers, warriors, bandits, bouncers.

This is one of the reasons I suggest urban ranger to many people that want to play a 'rogue'. Act rogueish, be a scoundrel, steal, cheat and lie. Don't pick abilities that you won't enjoy because you want to write 'rogue' at the top of your character sheet.

Short version: Role-play your character, not his class.

Sounds good. Thanks for the tip!

Looks like I started a nice thread ;)

Just spoke with my GM and I have access to every classes and archetypes.

I read the Core RB, APB and UC and the Rogue seems limited to me. As far as I know, the Ninja is a better Rogue, period. I feel I could go heavy on skills and be useful in combat. I have to say I really don't know where to go with the Ninja Talents. On a side note, would it be correct for a Ninja to pickpocket and stuff? The roleplay side of the Rogue attracted me.

Bard could be a decent choice but a friend of mine is playing one atm and he's struggling so hard... Well, could be some bad choices too.

Maybe I'm trying the impossible to find a class fun to roleplay and good in combat/useful to the party :|

I just read the Ninja section in UC, and it's amazing! Basically, it's an enhanced rogue. I have to check with my GM first. If I go with it, I'll have to think about a nice background story lol

As for the Rogue, taking notes for Spring Attack and Offensive Defense.

About Trip, is the Fighter the best class for that role?

I really like the Rapier/Whip Rogue for maximum harassment! I get the idea that a Rogue is more a support class than a damage dealer, but you can still pull some nice dmg when you can sneak and be very useful for your team.

I'm pretty sure I read something about the Ninja... Is it a new archetype? I should check it out!

So, I guess 14 Int (or even 13) is the way to go for a lot of skills plus Combat Expertise. I know a Human Rogue would probably be the best but I was thinking to go with Half-Elf. I guess I still can change my mind ;)

Dropping TWF, since you can't move and get your second attack. Spring Attack could be very useful then, a good way to avoid getting hit too often.

Let's say full Rogue. A combat effective Rogue that can do other things. I'd say a skills heavy rogue, which is easily doable with hmm, 14 or 16 Int?

I'm curious about your Rogue/Ranger build too.

Hi!

I'm about to complete my first Pathfinder RPG campaign and the GM asked the group to start thinking about our new characters. I'm currently playing a Ranger, it's decent and all but I made some mistakes and I'd like to avoid doing the same with my new character.

I'm still working on my background, which will be heavily used in the oncoming campaign. For now, I'll stick to the character creation and especially where I want to go.

I'd prefer to not multiclass, sticking to core class instead. Unless it's a bad choice.

Stats

I'd like to go with a skills heavy Rogue. I wonder if it's worthwhile?
I read some stuff on the forums, some say go Dex all the way with Weapon Finesse, other say to have good Str too. Otherwise, I'm having an hard to say, some Cons to not die easily?

Feats

Is Two-Weapon Fighting good with a Rogue?
If so, could go TWF > Double Slice > Imp TWF > Greater TWF. Or too much?
Throwing some ideas:
Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack
Quick Draw
Power Attack > Cleave > Greater Cleave
Combat Expertise > Imp Feint / Imp Trip (I read Trip is useful, so)
Improved Critical > Crit Focus > Useful crit effect

Rogue Talents

Basic: Combat Trick/Finesse Rogue for free feats, Fast Stealth, Slow Reactions, Resiliency.
Advanced: Crippling Strike, Imp Evasion, Opportunist, Slippery Mind

Sticking to the Core RB, I'd go with Rapier/Sword Short combo, some daggers. Maybe a Spear. Read some stuff about Whip, and in the case of the Knives Master, daggers.

I have access to the Advanced PB and Ultimate Combat books. There are some archetypes there but I really don't know their worth. Same goes for Rogue talents and Feats. There are so much, I have to admit I'm lost.

I assume the Rogue is more a support class than a heavy dmg dealing class. It clearly has to wait to go into melee and usually don't last long. I hope it shines somewhere else.

Anyhow, advices are very welcome. Discuss!

P.S. English isn't my first language. I apology for the poor grammar :|