Again I have to state that the Fast Learner feat for humans requires a 13+ score in Intelligence to qualify. Since none of the optimized point spreads produce that, it is an important thing to note going on. This is especially important if you have a GM who will only allow the feat at 1st level, and note that it has gotten an errata that can allow you to get your alternate class bonus along with either the hit point or skill rank.
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I know this isn't really a huge deal, and is just a small part if the guide, but the stacking of those archetypes is quite simply against the rules:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.` (caps lock mine)
I agree that allowing both of them is reasonable, but I feel it should be mentioned that when you say specifically that you can stack them, it should mention that this is your opinion rather than derived from any rule or paizo staff member comments. Even just an IMHO.
Again I have to state that the Fast Learner feat for humans requires a 13+ score in Intelligence to qualify. Since none of the optimized point spreads produce that, it is an important thing to note going on. This is especially important if you have a GM who will only allow the feat at 1st level, and note that it has gotten an errata that can allow you to get your alternate class bonus along with either the hit point or skill rank.
Could you point me to the place where the errata has been published please. I can't find any reference to this in the FAQ for the ARG, and no errata doc has been published for the ARG. Thanks.
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Again I have to state that the Fast Learner feat for humans requires a 13+ score in Intelligence to qualify. Since none of the optimized point spreads produce that, it is an important thing to note going on. This is especially important if you have a GM who will only allow the feat at 1st level, and note that it has gotten an errata that can allow you to get your alternate class bonus along with either the hit point or skill rank.
This is why it's in the "other feats to consider" section.
I know this isn't really a huge deal, and is just a small part if the guide, but the stacking of those archetypes is quite simply against the rules:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.` (caps lock mine)
I agree that allowing both of them is reasonable, but I feel it should be mentioned that when you say specifically that you can stack them, it should mention that this is your opinion rather than derived from any rule or paizo staff member comments. Even just an IMHO.
It is noted for the next iteration of the Guide (which is currently in the works). The new iteration of the Guide will also include advise for mythic paths, feats and spells.
Be sure to point out that with the third tier universal mythic ability 'Beyond Morality' it's *theoretically* possible to have a Paladin/Anti-Paladin single character build. Or combine with Druid, Monk, Barbarian, or anything else:
Beyond Morality (Ex)
"You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment."
even with the alignment restriction lifted, alternate classes specifically aren't allowed to multiclass into their base class (meaning ninja/rogue, samurai/cavalier, and antipaladin/paladin aren't allowed).
You are lovely, Bodhizen. Iomedae herself salutes you, I'm sure.
Any chance you can Putin some more multiclass/PrC notes? Stonelord Paladin/Stalwart Defender and Paladin/Dragon Disciple both can fight the LG fight.
dont forget the fairly common lore-or-nature oracle dip for SADness (cha to AC and either reflex or CMD instead of dex, lore gets other things to make knowledge run off of cha, and nature lets you gather info/scout safely like a boss)
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You've managed to put up a great guide, and I appreciate the work done on it.
I honestly am on the side of Unsanctioned Knowledge myself, but I can respect your opinions on it.
But what I want to talk about is your opinion on a natural attacker Paladin. I like the idea of it, really piling on the smite, although it loses out on either Sacred Bond. I'll admit a mount works better since enhancing only one weapon is rather lacking when you'd be using a Claw/Claw/Bite(Gore) routine. But with something like Sacred Servant or anything else with a variant for it, it'd be a much better deal, as well as a powerful source of damage, especially Oath of Vengeance style.
I'm sorry if you've gotten this question before, but I didn't see a lot of mention in it in your guide.
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You are lovely, Bodhizen. Iomedae herself salutes you, I'm sure.
Any chance you can Putin some more multiclass/PrC notes? Stonelord Paladin/Stalwart Defender and Paladin/Dragon Disciple both can fight the LG fight.
Thank you very much for your comments on the guide. However, Vladimir himself wouldn't multiclass. :)
I don't write multiclassing into my Guides, and that includes prestige classes. As you can see, I cut version 2.0 down to 31 pages (from 38), but version 3.0 will expand that out again. 30+ pages on a single class is a significant amount of work. If I picked just three multiclass or prestige class options to recommend, that would probably add another 6 pages or so. That's not a road that I'm willing to travel down, as people would constantly be clamoring for more multiclassing recommendations. With 10 other core classes to consider, 8 base classes, 2 other alternate classes (discounting antipaladins) alone (not counting the 70+ prestige classes out there), all from Paizo, that's at least 20 combinations at 2 pages a piece.
I'm not looking to double the size of the Guide just to include multiclassing options.
You've managed to put up a great guide, and I appreciate the work done on it.
I honestly am on the side of Unsanctioned Knowledge myself, but I can respect your opinions on it.
But what I want to talk about is your opinion on a natural attacker Paladin. I like the idea of it, really piling on the smite, although it loses out on either Sacred Bond. I'll admit a mount works better since enhancing only one weapon is rather lacking when you'd be using a Claw/Claw/Bite(Gore) routine. But with something like Sacred Servant or anything else with a variant for it, it'd be a much better deal, as well as a powerful source of damage, especially Oath of Vengeance style.
I'm sorry if you've gotten this question before, but I didn't see a lot of mention in it in your guide.
Thank you for your comments on the Guide.
You are able to use your Divine (Weapon) Bond ability on any natural weapon (such as your claw, but you couldn't use it on yourself to have it apply to your claws and your bite). However, your damage dice are typically smaller on your natural attacks, with a smaller critical threat range and your critical multiplier is far less likely to be greater than x2. It's not really an optimal selection, and the feats to enhance your attacks are generally more limited in scope. It's like purposefully guaranteeing that you'll have to take additional feats just so that you can't be disarmed. Sure, it looks cool, but why would you invest in Improved Natural Attack and blow a feat just to get equivalent damage to a scimitar with a smaller critical threat range?
As I have mentioned to other posters before, the goal of the Guide is to talk about optimal builds, not every possible permutation.
Thank you very much for your interest and comments!
My Paladin/Shadowdancer has Unsanctioned Knowledge.
Her first level spell is Beguiling Gift. Combined with a Shadow Conjuration utilized for Sepia Snake Sigil, it's proved handy twice - it's a great way to ensure that the NPC reads the document with Sepia Snake Sigil.
"I have the following list of complaints of your behavior. Would you please look them over and make your case?" (Will Save)
*read*
*zot*
It's real problem is that the save DC is absurdly low...but I've got a GM who'll play along on story related stuff.
"All right, let's get him back to the magistrate; that will only last for a few days."
Her second level spell from the feat is See Invisible. Amazing how useful that spell is to know - can't be potioned, 10 minutes per level, and you can't Smite something you can't see.
It will be a while before I see third level spells with her.
Also a Sacred Servant paladin with Travel Domain can retrain and qualify for the Dimensional Dervish feat chain, and can buzz around the battlefield rocking the house. To my knowledge, it is the only full BAB class capable of doing so.
Also a Sacred Servant paladin with Travel Domain can retrain and qualify for the Dimensional Dervish feat chain, and can buzz around the battlefield rocking the house. To my knowledge, it is the only full BAB class capable of doing so.It comes online at higher, but it is a great combination indeed.
You take Dimentional Hop at 11, meaning that you could have Dimentional Dervish by 15th lvl. Of course, with retraining you can have it at 11th lvl.
My only issue with the Travel domain is that it does not cover the offensive bonuses that you lose from eschewing divine bond.
I'm fairly certain that the boost from divine bond being used to cast GMW at a much higher CL helps mitigate that by a lot.
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Thank you for your comments on the Guide.
You are able to use your Divine (Weapon) Bond ability on any natural weapon (such as your claw, but you couldn't use it on yourself to have it apply to your claws and your bite). However, your damage dice are typically smaller on your natural attacks, with a smaller critical threat range and your critical multiplier is far less likely to be greater than x2. It's not really an optimal selection, and the feats to enhance your attacks are generally more limited in scope. It's like purposefully guaranteeing that you'll have to take additional feats just so that you can't be disarmed. Sure, it looks cool, but why would you invest in Improved Natural Attack and blow a feat just to get equivalent damage to a scimitar with a smaller critical threat range?
As I have mentioned to other posters before, the goal of the Guide is to talk about optimal builds, not every possible permutation.
Thank you very much for your interest and comments!
I know you can D Bond your natural weapon, but the issue is only having one D Bonded weapon instead of the 3/4 natural weapons you'd be using. Yeah, we are dealing with smaller damage dice on average (normally a d4), but as has been stated over and over again by others, damage dice are the least important part of how much damage you can do. Static damage is where it's at, and with 3/4 smite attacks coming in with level to damage at once, that 1d4 isn't going to matter a heck of a lot more than a 1d6 or 1d8 would have.
As for feats...what feats do you need for this? If you're claw/claw/bite, you don't need Multiattack or anything like that (Maybe Aspect of the Beast to pick up claws if you're not using a clawed race, since Tusked/Mother's Maw can be picked up with a trait), you could pick up an AOMF to take care of your DC concerns (or go Agile for a dex based Paladin no problem), Power Attack/Piranha Strike, and then you're golden. Picking up Improved Natural Attack is worthless, I'll give you that, so just ignore it along with Eldritch Claws which also loses steam when you already cut through DR. The build itself only needs one feat (PA or PS) to get started, and the rest can be used on anything else. The most difficult thing to argue is the crit range, which I will admit is suboptimal, but that's the only thing about it, seeing as you're getting 3/4 Natural Attacks at Full BAB as soon as first/second level, which is not hard to do at all.
Like I said before, it works best with a variant Divine Bond so you're not losing out on only having one D Bonded weapon, but early game you're putting down as much hurt as any other build. Assuming a strength of 16 and Power Attack:
3(1d4+5), or 3d4+15, which beats out an equal two handing build carrying a greatsword doing 2d6+7, only losing in critical range by 1 point, and really making up for that in damage potential as well as multiple swings, meaning the damage isn't all hit or miss. This is also if we don't get a 4th natural attack which completely destroys the Castigator instead of the normal, although right now the only way I know of to get a 4th is Skinwalker (The Harrison Zahhak Build with 6 Natural Attacks would be UGLY, and only require Multiattack to function almost perfectly)
I feel like the value of multiple attacks is not to be taken lightly, and I think you can see that a smiting character in this regard would be even more dangerous. Again, assuming the same at 5th level with 16 Cha, you'd be doing:
3(1d4+12), or 3d4+36 compared to the Castigator's 2d6+15. Once Casty gets his second swing, he starts closing the gap, but it's a gap that Wild Thing drove through with a truck. Reliability is also a huge factor of natural attacks, getting several at once instead of one big swing. The thing that Casty beats Wild Thing in at early levels is mobility however, not needing a full attack to unload, which is the biggest failing of Wild Thing, as well as reduced value in additional attacks from things such as Haste. However other buffs such as Bard Song highly favor Wild Thing, which to me balances out.
It's been fun listing all this stuff, and I respect if you don't want to include it, but realize there is a value in the Wild Thing Paladin.
I did a quick skim, so I apologize ahead of time if I may have missed it but I don't see any advice in the guide for an Antipaladin to get Augment Summoning. Not only does an Antipaladin get summon monster as a spell, but his bonded creature is a summoned monster so the creature he/she summons would get the extra 4/4 in stats.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final
I did a quick skim, so I apologize ahead of time if I may have missed it but I don't see any advice in the guide for an Antipaladin to get Augment Summoning. Not only does an Antipaladin get summon monster as a spell, but his bonded creature is a summoned monster so the creature he/she summons would get the extra 4/4 in stats.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final
Supreme,
Thank you for your input on the guide!
I wouldn't recommend Augment Summoning. Even though the feat itself is really, really good, you need Spell Focus (Conjuration) to get it, and that, right there, is 20% of your feat choices at 20th level to get the +4 Strength and Constitution bonus for your summoned servant. If you didn't need Spell Focus (Conjuration), then I'd probably recommend it.
Is working fine for me on Chrome.
This thread got me thinking about whether or not it's possible to make a Paladin/Barbarian build that was stronger than either individually. And yes, it is possible to do, but whether or not it's *worth* doing is another thing all together. I'd appreciate your input, so please let me know what you think:
I did a quick skim, so I apologize ahead of time if I may have missed it but I don't see any advice in the guide for an Antipaladin to get Augment Summoning. Not only does an Antipaladin get summon monster as a spell, but his bonded creature is a summoned monster so the creature he/she summons would get the extra 4/4 in stats.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final
Supreme,
Thank you for your input on the guide!
I wouldn't recommend Augment Summoning. Even though the feat itself is really, really good, you need Spell Focus (Conjuration) to get it, and that, right there, is 20% of your feat choices at 20th level to get the +4 Strength and Constitution bonus for your summoned servant. If you didn't need Spell Focus (Conjuration), then I'd probably recommend it.
I wouldn't worry about that too much personally if playing a race with an extra feat, such as a human.
Also most campaigns don't go past level 11, so having a huge bonus to stats for a summoned creature is just too good to pass up, that of course depends on how your party and campaign is. The need to get Spell Focus kind-of sucks, but then again, the Antipaladin gets a few conjuration spells anyhow, so it'll give your spellcasting some good bonuses. Getting a Shadow Demon or Succubus with a str/con boost is awsome.
And if you're in a non-evil-exclusive campaign and you're playing an antipaladin, Smite Good and the like aren't too helpful, so having a summoned creature make up for your damage when fighting neutral/evil creatures. It's one of those must-have feats in those types of campaigns, as Smite Good isn't going to do anything most of the time.
For me anyhow. I think it's at least worth a mention. I know my tripping Antipaladin with a sickle and shield, combat-experise and augment summoning, lets me "tank n' spank" as it were with my high saves, high AC and a summoned creature to make up for my lack of damage when fighting neutral/evil creatures.
Thank you for your input on the guide once again!
Dropping it from 20% to 18% of your total feats doesn't make it so much better. It's something that can be passed up, quite easily. If I was a summoner, since it's my primary trick, I certainly wouldn't pass it up, but as an antipaladin, sorry... I've got more hurtin' to do. Your conjuration spells aren't going to benefit a lot from Spell Focus; it's a speed-bump.
You're absolutely right that if you're in a campaign that isn't good exclusive, Smite Good isn't as useful... But it's never to the point that it isn't going to do anything most of the time, unless you've made a poor choice in playing an antipaladin and you're fighting evil and neutral creatures almost exclusively.
Your fiendish servant can be banished or killed, depriving you of it for 30 days. I'm fairly certain that Smite Good will be usable more than a few times during that time-frame.
If it's worth mentioning, it would be to say that you could do it, and you would receive a benefit from it, but it's not an optimal use of two feats to give your summoned creature +2 on attack rolls and damage, and +2 hit points per hit die. Since I mention such things not in the Guide, but in the discussion thread, I wouldn't put it in the Guide to take up space, as it's not necessary.
Thanks for the suggestion, though!
Just a bit of curiosity, but how does the Warrior of Holy Light archetype stack up for any of the Paladin builds? Admittedly, it does lose spellcasting ability, the use of spell trigger/completion items, and Aura of Faith. But it generally gives it up for an increased Lay on Hands pool, an alternate use for that pool in the form of an aura, and an AoE heal/damage effect. The question is, can it be worth it for one of the standard Paladin builds? I could see it used in a Castigator build with Oath of Vengeance as well. The extra Lay on Hands uses could help fuel extra Smite Evil attempts as well as a nice defensive/offensive buff.
A brand new Guide to the Optimal Paladin & Antipaladin, now with Mythic Support!
A brand new Guide to the Optimal Paladin & Antipaladin, now with Mythic Support!
YOU MONSTER! They were strong enough already with people just picking random options.
Thank you, Marthkus!
Muahahahaha... err... ::cough:: Excuse me.
First off thank you for the guide I found it very useful when creating my character. Out of curiosity would you say all aasimar feats are a trap because I was thinking about taking angelic blood and angelic wings feats or should I just stick to standard feats.
I have a sidebar in the guide about Aasimar racial feats, and I spoke about it here in the discussion thread. Basically, they provide some nice lateral abilites that have no synergy with paladin abilities.
Just a bit of curiosity, but how does the Warrior of Holy Light archetype stack up for any of the Paladin builds? Admittedly, it does lose spellcasting ability, the use of spell trigger/completion items, and Aura of Faith. But it generally gives it up for an increased Lay on Hands pool, an alternate use for that pool in the form of an aura, and an AoE heal/damage effect. The question is, can it be worth it for one of the standard Paladin builds? I could see it used in a Castigator build with Oath of Vengeance as well. The extra Lay on Hands uses could help fuel extra Smite Evil attempts as well as a nice defensive/offensive buff.
Kalvit,
Thank you for your interest in the guide!
Honestly, the loss of spellcasting ability is going to be a tough pill for any paladin player to swallow. The abilities granted by the Power of Light class feature just don't stack up in comparison, as it doesn't give you anything that you couldn't already get with spellcasting abilities or item powers. Sure, having up to five more uses of your Lay on Hands class feature are quite nice, but if you're going for healing, I recommend the hospitaler route.
The Shining Light ability gets up to three slightly jumped up channel bursts that get halved on a Reflex save. Overall the archetype is questionable in terms of whether the new abilities are really worth what you lose. I'd lean toward "no".
Best wishes!
I remember, long ago, that I promised someone that I'd make a goblin paladin for them. I might have a few tricks yet up my sleeve for the future (hush-hush), but for now... How about a level 10 goblin?
Goblin Paladin 10
LG Small humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +1 size)
hp 67 (10d10)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +11; +2 vs. death
Immune charm, disease, fear
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 axiomatic lance +14/+9 (1d6+17/×3+2d6 vs. Chaotic)
Special Attacks Channel Energy 5d6, smite evil
Spell-Like Abilities
. . At will—detect evil
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +12):
3rd (1/day)—heal mount
2nd (2/day)—saddle surge, vestment of the champion
1st (4/day)—divine favor (x2), grace (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 20
Base Atk +10; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Fey Foundling, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Traits advantageous distraction, reactionary
Skills Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +6, Perception +7, Ride +16, Sense Motive +3, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +11; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
Languages Goblin
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, axiomatic, divine bonds (gmorg, wolf), lay on hands, mercies (mercy [fatigued], mercy [sickened], mercy [staggered]), summon mount
Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +2 Axiomatic Lance, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Paladin's kit, 679 GP
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Special Abilities
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Advantageous Distraction (1/day) Like most goblins, you're easily distracted. Unlike most goblins, though, you have a knack for being distracted at the right time, especially when it comes to avoiding pain. Once per day as a swift action, you can be momentarily distracted in combat
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Axiomatic Law-aligned and +2d6 damage vs Chaotic creatures.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Fey Foundling Magical healing works better on you
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (5d6) (10/day) (Su) You can heal 5d6 damage, 10/day
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Sickened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Mercy (Staggered) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the staggered condition. This does not help if the target is at 0 HP.
Mounted Combat (1/round) Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (5/day) (DC 20) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ride-by Attack You can move - attack - move when charging mounted.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +5 to hit, +10 to damage, +5 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Spirited Charge Double damage when making a mounted charge (triple with a lance).
Summon Mount (2/day) (2/day) (Sp) summon your mount to your side.
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I noticed a problem with the feat suggestions for the Combat Medic. You have all the blue rated feats listed as 1st level. Those feats cannot be selected until you have the corosponding class feature, so it would be: extra LoH, reward of life, word of healing 2nd; extra mecry, greater mercy 3rd; extra channel, selective channel, quick channel 4th.
I hope this helps.
I noticed a problem with the feat suggestions for the Combat Medic. You have all the blue rated feats listed as 1st level. Those feats cannot be selected until you have the corosponding class feature, so it would be: extra LoH, reward of life, word of healing 2nd; extra mecry, greater mercy 3rd; extra channel, selective channel, quick channel 4th.
I hope this helps.
That was helpful, indeed. Good catch!
Unfortunately, Google Drive won't let me save a new version of the .pdf file over an old one (that would make life much simpler), so the new link can be found here.
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I have played an assimar paladin with the angel wings line, (not the full line for metallic wings mind, just the blood>wings) and 30ft fly speed is REALLY NICE. celestial full plate (mith) makes a nice armor for this, until then mith breastplate is prob the best though, but at about 33k you won't need to wait, -too- long.
you say they don't synergise, but. they kinda do.
angel blood- you cause most evil things, (undead+ demons+devils ect IIRC) to take, small damage when you take bleed. sure its -meh- but hey, its nice, The wings are also fairly nice to have, that enemy just flew away? well hey, I can fly too! (albeit, probably not as fast, but hey, its indefinite flight!)
and to be fair, if you go two-handed. you don't -need- any feats bar
power attack, weapon focus, and possibly furious focus.
charger? more so, but you only add 3 extra feats.
aegis? your not going to be TWFing anytime soon, and even if you wanted to, 2 feats for wings and flying is something I will pay very often. (especially if it fits the theme)
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Metallic wings isn't as bad as it seems, especially for a two-handed weapon paladin who doesn't need lots of feats to compete.
The burnished skin feat that gives NA +1 and cold iron natural weapons is as useful as the dodge feat (if not slightly more so), and two wing attacks that you can smite with give you substantially more damage on a full attack. Sure you're getting they're only 1d4 + 1/2 str a piece, but your smite damage goes through 100%. They also don't hurt your manufactured weapon's attack bonus like TWF would.
The wings are permanent so you can get permanent GMF on those buggers instead of the obscenely priced amulet of mighty fists, and you can still wear an amulet of natural armor. Alternatively, if you've got the funds, GMF the wings and get the amulet of mighty fists with holy, bane, wounding, whatever else you want.
I'd only use this tree on a game that goes to high level, but if you're going to at least 15, you've got four feats left over. The only real necessary one for a two-hander is Power Attack. That gives you 3 for whatever else you want.
Mith breasplate is the best option. I don't think you can make celestial full plate mithral. It's already made of a silver material that lowers it to medium armor. Another possible option would be mithral or celestial full plate and a sash of the war champion to get armor training 1.
I don't think you can make celestial full plate mithral. It's already made of a silver material that lowers it to medium armor.
There was a whole thread about it, you can.
Would you mind terribly linking to it?
I'd like to see the reasoning so I can decide to get behind it or not.
Would you mind terribly linking to it?
I'd like to see the reasoning so I can decide to get behind it or not.
Here it is.Would you mind terribly linking to it?
I'd like to see the reasoning so I can decide to get behind it or not.
Was there an FAQ or errata link or something I missed in there while I was skimming over it? I pretty much just see two camps saying "yes you can" and "no you can't" back and forth, you being one of the more vocal saying "yes you can" regarding the issue.
Was there an FAQ or errata link or something I missed in there while I was skimming over it? I pretty much just see two camps saying "yes you can" and "no you can't" back and forth, you being one of the more vocal saying "yes you can" regarding the issue.Here it is.Would you mind terribly linking to it?
I'd like to see the reasoning so I can decide to get behind it or not.
Read the thread, the camp that says "yes you can" also happened to have specific rules cited from the book specifically addressing the issue.
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Read the thread, the camp that says "yes you can" also happened to have specific rules cited from the book specifically addressing the issue.
Was there an FAQ or errata link or something I missed in there while I was skimming over it? I pretty much just see two camps saying "yes you can" and "no you can't" back and forth, you being one of the more vocal saying "yes you can" regarding the issue.
No FAQs or specific rules, there were a bunch of people saying 'your GM might allow it' and one poster yelling at them. :)
The rule in support was the one explaining that some items can sometimes be made of different materials. The example from the book is making a Lion Shield out of wood or metal.
I have played an assimar paladin with the angel wings line, (not the full line for metallic wings mind, just the blood>wings) and 30ft fly speed is REALLY NICE. celestial full plate (mith) makes a nice armor for this, until then mith breastplate is prob the best though, but at about 33k you won't need to wait, -too- long.
you say they don't synergise, but. they kinda do.
angel blood- you cause most evil things, (undead+ demons+devils ect IIRC) to take, small damage when you take bleed. sure its -meh- but hey, its nice, The wings are also fairly nice to have, that enemy just flew away? well hey, I can fly too! (albeit, probably not as fast, but hey, its indefinite flight!)
and to be fair, if you go two-handed. you don't -need- any feats bar
power attack, weapon focus, and possibly furious focus.charger? more so, but you only add 3 extra feats.
aegis? your not going to be TWFing anytime soon, and even if you wanted to, 2 feats for wings and flying is something I will pay very often. (especially if it fits the theme)
rorek55,
Thank you for your comments. I'm not really sure that you're understanding what I mean by "doesn't synergise well". What I do not mean is "this is competely useless and therefore, you should not take it." What I do mean is "this ability is nice to have, but it doesn't enhance other things that you already have". I speak a bit about "lateral" abilities. Adding an ability to a paladin that makes their smite more awesome adds synergy. Adding an ability that allows the paladin to fly around adds in a lateral ability; nice to have, but not quite as nice as the thing that lets you do what you do already, but even better.
There are a few vehicles for flight that are available without having to expend feat selections (which are limited as-is) to acquire flight. While some builds are not so feat intensive that you simply cannot afford to make the choice, there are still feat choices that are going to give you more bang for your buck.
With regard to the discussion regarding celestial full plate being made of mithral... That's an issue that remains unsettled, and therefore, I'm not going to endorse it. I'll be conservative and say, "Ask your GM," (just to be on the safe side). If you want to continue to have that discussion with master_marshmallow, kindly do so in the other thread.
Best wishes.
but most healers are fondly known as "the waste of space", lay on hands or channel does't heal a single target for more than an appropriate level cure spell ie. 2d6 lay on hands is the equivalent of a 2d8+3 cure moderate and the spell cure moderate wounds is widely considered to be a sub-optimal action in combat. While the hospitalier may be a fun archtype and even effective in its own way it not an optimal choice for paladin or even for a focused healer.
I have found in PFS that Channeling is one of the only effective ways to heal. Since Paladins can be just as good at channeling as clerics I have been doing a thought exercise to make a party healer out of a Paladin. Im not sure how a basic paladin stacks up to the Hospitalier, both have pros and cons.
You could read the Guide and look at the section on "Combat Medic".
You could read the Guide and look at the section on "Combat Medic".
Not sure if this comment was directed at me.
I have read the guide. I have been doing alot of searching on the boards for more information involving empirical data, not just theory craft. I am planing on trying out a hospitaler in PFS. But I'm not sure I will have any useful data for a while.
On that, I don't believe Osyluth Guile should be ranked blue in that section. You would already be giving up a lot of offence and fighting defensively would make you non-threatening enough that the bad guy might just ignore you. On top of that, Paladins get 2 skills per level and this feat takes 8 ranks in bluff along with a feat tax of "Dodge". While dodge isnt a bad feat. This build is already badly feat starved.
Slacker2010, in the equipment section for the Combat Medic build, there are some more concrete numbers for you. It specifically states the following:
Healing Stats: (Assuming Level 20, Charisma 18/24, Greater Mercy, and Bracers of the Merciful Knight) 12d6 points of healing 19 times per day from Lay on Hands; 12-72 points of healing per use of Lay on Hands for a total of 228 to 1,368 points of healing per day. This excludes healing from healing spells.
This is from the basic paladin sans Hospitaler archetype. Now regarding Osyluth Guile, you're certainly welcome to your opinion, but I don't usually predicate any particular feat on how good its requirements are unless it's excessive in how much is required to take the feat. One prerequisite feat and 8 skill ranks in a skill you might invest in anyway is not what I would call excessive. Also, as Dodge bonuses are stackable, the Dodge feat is not anything even remotely resembling a "tax". As combat medic paladins are not intended to be front-liners (though they can sub in to take a hit), giving up offense is not an issue.
Best wishes.