Ulti-Martial: Paladin Barbarian Build (Thought Exercise)


Advice


Since Paladins and Barbarians kept coming up in the 'Strongest Martial Class' discussion, it got me thinking about how to combine the two and see if it's possible to make the strongest possible martial class.

And yes, it *is* possible to play a Paladin/Barbarian: The third tier universal mythic ability 'Beyond Morality' it's *theoretically* possible to have a Paladin/Barbarian single character build. Or combine with Druid, Monk, Barbarian/Anti-Paladin, or anything else as long as it's not a class variant:

Beyond Morality (Ex):

"You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment."

I'm working on the build, but I figured I'd put it out to the community first since I'm far from an expert on either class. Is it even worth doing? Can a Paladin / Barbarian / something else top it's single class cousins?

Just be sure to include at least 3 mythic tiers in your build, which can realistically be done by about level 10 or so.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ecw1701 wrote:

Since Paladins and Barbarians kept coming up in the 'Strongest Martial Class' discussion, it got me thinking about how to combine the two and see if it's possible to make the strongest possible martial class.

And yes, it *is* possible to play a Paladin/Barbarian: The third tier universal mythic ability 'Beyond Morality' it's *theoretically* possible to have a Paladin/Barbarian single character build. Or combine with Druid, Monk, Barbarian/Anti-Paladin, or anything else as long as it's not a class variant:

Mythic is not exactly "standard" play.

Keep also in mind that "Beyond Morality" does not free someone from the obligations of the Paladin code, just the alignment requirement. You can still lose the class from breaking it.


I never said it was standard, I said it was *possible*. Without any houseruling to boot. I also don't think there's anything innately anti-Paladin about being a Barbarian. Heck a wild (wo)man who finds religion is the poster child for what it means to be a Paladin!

Spoiler Alert: There's even a Succubus who worships Desna NPC in Wrath of the Righteous...and she looks pretty darn sweet if I do say so myself.


There's already a way to get rage for a lawful character, so the barbarian alignment restriction doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, what's the idea behind this build? I'm not seeing what abilities you can get from both that would synergize really well.

ecw1701 wrote:
Spoiler Alert: There's even a Succubus who worships Desna NPC in Wrath of the Righteous...and she looks pretty darn sweet if I do say so myself.

Just need to cut this picture off at the knees...


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

There's already a way to get rage for a lawful character, so the barbarian alignment restriction doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, what's the idea behind this build? I'm not seeing what abilities you can get from both that would synergize really well.

I suppose that's the thought exercise: Yes, it can be done, but is it worth doing? I'm working on a build right now to see if it is even possible to do in a way that makes sense. From a mythic tiers stand point, I think you're on the hook to do at least 7-10 levels of Paladin or Barb (including dips) before switching to the other.


ecw1701 wrote:
I suppose that's the thought exercise: Yes, it can be done, but is it worth doing? I'm working on a build right now to see if it is even possible to do in a way that makes sense. From a mythic tiers stand point, I think you're on the hook to do at least 7-10 levels of Paladin or Barb (including dips) before switching to the other.

Celestial Bloodline would be recommendable for class level to LoH, though if you plan on playing at 20 the Paladin Capstone gives you statistically more extra HP(25) to LoH. Pre 20 this would be a nice boost.

If you want a raging Paladin also consider Sacred Servant with the Rage Domain(also take the Celestial Bloodline) and you could Rage at level 12. Be a a Half-orc and take Fire God's Blessing.

-You won't necessarily have to go for Superstition, since you get the Palas defenses and don't want to save vs. your buffs.

For Combos: Barb2(Celestial Totem)/Pal 18 or Barb12(Pounce/Come and Get Me)/Pal 8(+4 vs Charm)


11 levels of paladin to get the evil=dead aura of justice, 8 levels barbarian for the superstition/spellsunder goodies?

Paladin 3 for rage cycling with the fatigue mercy, barbarian the rest?

I'd be curious about bloodrager/paladin, to get more mileage from cha.. i'd guess the lack of cha synergy and class feature delays would hurt barb/pal enough to make it less than stellar, barring ridiculous point buy or luck for attributes..


Agreed, it would probably work better with a Bloodrager. I'm still poking around with Invulnerable Rager 12 / Oath of Vengeance Paladin 8.
Being able to Smite Evil on a CAGM would be pretty nice, even if it could only be done twice a day.

I don't know Barbarians or Paladins very well, but I do know a good bit about Mythic abilities, since my group is running Wrath of the Righteous.

Assuming 3 tiers, the Mythic Path and abilities I'd suggest are:

Besides the Base Mythic abilities everyone gets: Hard to kill, mythic power, surge +1d6, Amazing initiative, Recuperation

Mythic Feats: Cleave (Mythic), Power Attack (Mythic)
Champion Mythic Path / Sudden strike
1st-Tier Path Abilities: flash of rage, mythic rage

3rd-Tier Path Abilities: beyond morality

If more than 3 tiers, pick up Mythic Smite, titans rage, to the death.

You can find all the mythic stuff here if you aren't familiar with it. It's fun, but the power level goes off the charts pretty darn fast against non-mythic enemies.


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ecw1701 wrote:

Agreed, it would probably work better with a Bloodrager. I'm still poking around with Invulnerable Rager 12 / Oath of Vengeance Paladin 8.

Being able to Smite Evil on a CAGM would be pretty nice, even if it could only be done twice a day.

I don't know Barbarians or Paladins very well, but I do know a good bit about Mythic abilities, since my group is running Wrath of the Righteous.

** spoiler omitted **

You can find all the mythic stuff here if you aren't familiar with it. It's fun, but the power level goes off the charts pretty darn fast against non-mythic enemies.

Why do you want Flash of Rage and Mythic Rage? With twelve Barbarian levels, you'll be able to rage for 34 rounds per day. This should be enough by itself IMO, unless you wanna use some feat to burn them like Raging Brutality: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-brutality

You could take Mystic Smite, instead of Mythic Rage, since you will only have a few Smite uses.

I'd totally go for the EVER READY mythic path ability. With Come and Get Me you'll make lots of AoOs.


I agree with you, however you can't pick up any paladin levels until after you get beyond morality at 3rd tier. Unless you start paladin and go barbarian, but this seems like a less plausible character arc. I did however notice I left beyond morality off as the third tier ability, which I've now added in. Derp.

Although upon reflection, I think I'd cash in Mythic Cleave in favor of Dual Path, and pick up Guardian as a secondary path for the Absorb Blow special ability. If you went 10 tiers you can pick up Cleave a bit later.

Absorb Blow (Su):

As an immediate action, whenever you take hit point damage from a single source (such as a dragon's breath, a spell, or a weapon), you can expend one use of mythic power to reduce the damage you take from that source by 5 per tier (to a minimum of 0 points of damage taken). If you have another ability or effect that reduces damage (such as protection from energy), reduce the damage with the absorb blow ability before applying any other damage-reducing effects. For every 10 points of damage that this ability prevents, for 1 minute you gain DR 1/epic and 5 points of resistance against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage. The DR and resistances stack with any other DR and resistances that you have.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

3 thoughts:

1) +1 to the bloodrager suggestion. not getting rage powers would actually really hurt some of the craziest things you could do with a barb/pally, but the Cha synergy is great and thematically i love the idea of a celestial or metallic dragon bloodrager who's also a pally :)

2) even without mythic rules there are 3 ways to more or less do this legally (2 of which i think have been mentioned or alluded to)- the sacred servant archetype would let you take the destruction|rage domain (granting you rage @8 with rage powers @12&16, plus opening up the extra rage power feat); the wild stalker ranger has no alignment restrictions (and gets rage @4th with powers @5,10,15,20); the viking (fighter archetype) also has no alignment restrictions (and gets rage @4th with the option to take feats in place of combat feats from 6th on).

of these, i like the idea of a sword and board viking 6/paladin X-6 the best... good defenses to begin with, lesser celestial totem (and fey foundling) will make up for lost LoH dice (and greatly increase healing from other sources, and open up the extra rage power feat...), and with pally Cha the move action intimidate might actually be worthwhile.

3) i wish i had time to put together a mythic build for this, i bet you could really put together some crazy stuff...


Indeed, but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the selling points of Barbarians the CAGM build, or the admittedly nerfed ragelancepounce?

Although I suppose the builds you listed can still ragelancepounce; and if the new classes really do count as both for the sake of qualifying for feats, you could still have a CAGM build based around Arcanist, but I don't think they can take the hits. Maybe with some other sort of magical mitigation, hmmm.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

barbs have 5 main selling points (that i can think of off the top of my head...):

1) survivability- except for the pally with its sweet, sweet swift-LoH nobody really beats the barb for sheer physical toughness. d12 hp, extra Con when raging, natural DR (especially with invulnerable rager); barbarians just don't go down.

2) skills- they're no ranger, but having twice as many skill points as a fighter or pally is a selling point for many (they have some good class skills too... unless you want to be a face...)

3) superstition- with the right racial favored class bonus this rage power can dramatically increase your saves. its a big enough gain that some consider it a necessary choice for all barbs

4) come and get me- there are whole builds based around this power... it can be brutally effective, unfortunately it depends on your enemies' choices and isn't likely to work very long against any enemy with an intelligence score...

5) pounce- the ability to pounce (whether using lance-cheese or not) is awesome, so awesome that beast totem is rightly the default totem that you only change if you have concept/RP reasons for changing.

a pally/barb combo doesn't rely on 1 or 3 (at least not as much, since they have swift-LoH and divine grace), and 2 is obviously not important if you're multiclassing barb/pally for combat effectiveness. as amazing as 4 is when it works, it is IMHO overrated. losing 5 does hurt though.

if you really want to keep all 5, you're really looking at a barb with a 2 level pally dip... that keeps you on track as a barb but gets you divine grace (which you can stack with superstitious), a 1/day smite (which has little effect except that you completely ignore the enemies DR), and a couple of 1d6 swift LoH (which doesn't seem like much, but it is basically a lowgrade fast healing for 1 fight...)


nate lange wrote:


if you really want to keep all 5, you're really looking at a barb with a 2 level pally dip... that keeps you on track as a barb but gets you divine grace (which you can stack with superstitious), a 1/day smite (which has little effect except that you completely ignore the enemies DR), and a couple of 1d6 swift LoH (which doesn't seem like much, but it is basically a lowgrade fast healing for 1 fight...)

Makes sense to me...but can that be approximated by an Bloodrager/Pally Build? I don't think so.

This is a bit of a reach, but I wonder if a Sorcadin/Barb/DD build could be made to work. I mean I'm sure it CAN work, I mean work *better* than straight 20, or 18/2.


If you allow for 3pp, we can use the maenad race to make a lawful barbarian.
With a 25 point buy our attributes can be:
STR16 DEX14 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA16
Or with some dumping:
STR16 DEX14 CON15 INT8 WIS10 CHA16

I'm thinking Oath of Vengeance Paladin 3/ Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Oath of Vengeange Paladin5

I'll do a breakdown on feats and Rage Powers when I wake up tomorrow.


VM mercenario wrote:

If you allow for 3pp, we can use the maenad race to make a lawful barbarian.

With a 25 point buy our attributes can be:
STR16 DEX14 CON14 INT10 WIS10 CHA16
Or with some dumping:
STR16 DEX14 CON15 INT8 WIS10 CHA16

I'm thinking Oath of Vengeance Paladin 3/ Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Oath of Vengeange Paladin5

I'll do a breakdown on feats and Rage Powers when I wake up tomorrow.

Sounds interesting, I look forward to seeing it.

Worst case, Make it Paladin 8 / Invulnerable Rager 12. Between the 3PP race, Beyond Morality, the ability to just houserule away alignment restrictions, and/or some other variation I haven't thought of, there really does seem to be multiple legitimate ways to get here.

I'm interested to see if there's a viable CAGM/Smite build possible, since I think that can total up to some pretty nice DPR.


I know beast totem is really good what with pounce, but might there be a value in picking up Spirit totem? I feel like that paladin charisma might make it worth it? Now that I look at it though I guess that's not totally ideal damage at all.


Shimnimnim wrote:
I know beast totem is really good what with pounce, but might there be a value in picking up Spirit totem? I feel like that paladin charisma might make it worth it? Now that I look at it though I guess that's not totally ideal damage at all.

It's a free hit at lesser, and a free 1d8 against all targets at greater. Useful for a CAGM build, but maybe not optimal. But I like the idea.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ecw1701 wrote:
stuff... but can that be approximated by an Bloodrager/Pally Build?

well... bloodrager loses nothing on 1+2, can't take 3 but makes up for it with divine grace, can't take 4 but personally i don't think that's that big a deal, and is SOL on number 5... there might be some work around if you take the right bloodline or archetype (or like a race that can get a racial pounce or something) but generally that pounce is the one big thing you can't replicate/cover from barb...


er, couldn't you play a rage domain sacred servant paladin (oath of vengeance + oath against fiends) and call it a day?

not much need to multiclass unless you're aiming for the crazy glory of old dwarf oath of vengeance + fiends paladin 14 / invulnerable rager + urban barbarian 6 build with superstitious/witch hunter/spell sunder and steel soul for stupid high saves vs spells and spell effects (meaning 70-80% of anything and everything at high levels)

Silver Crusade

Shimnimnim wrote:
I know beast totem is really good what with pounce, but might there be a value in picking up Spirit totem? I feel like that paladin charisma might make it worth it? Now that I look at it though I guess that's not totally ideal damage at all.

Spirit totems have been awesome for my barbarian. That miss-chance inflicted on non-adjacent foes has save me more times than I expected, and the visual possibilities it opens up are wonderful.

The GM allowing them to be reworked to do holy damage rather than negative energy(damages undead, but won't damage non-evil targets at all) certainly helped thematically too. :)


Ok here's what I've got:

Maenad
Oath of Vengeance Paladin 3/ Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 12/Oath of Vengeange Paladin 5

Starting Attributes
STR16 DEX14 CON15 INT8 WIS10 CHA16
Put one attribute increase in Con and the rest in str, so at 20th level we have, without equipment:
STR20 DEX14 CON16 INT8 WIS10 CHA16

01 Feat Fey Foundling; Detect Evil; Smite Evil 1/day
02 Divine Grace; Lay on hands
03 Feat Power Attack; Aura of Courage; Divine Health; Mercy: Fatigued
04 Rage; Fast Movement
05 Feat Extra Rage Power: Witch Hunter; DR1/-; Rage Power: Superstition
06 Endure Elements(Hot)
07 Feat Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon; DR2/-; Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
08
09 Feat Improved Sunder; DR3/-; Fire Resistance 1; Rage Power: Spellsunder
10
11 Feat Dazing Assault; DR4/-; Rage Power: Beast Totem
12 Fire Resistance 2
13 Feat Extra Rage Power: Eater of Magic; DR5/-; Rage Power: Greater Beast Totem
14 Greater Rage
15 Feat Combat Reflexes; DR6/-; Fire Resistance 3; Rage Power: Come and Get Me
16 Channel Wrath; Smite Evil 2/day
17 Feat Extra Lay on Hands; Divine Bond: Weapon
18 Mercy: Staggered
19 Feat Raging Brutality; Smite Evil 3/day
20 Aura of Resolve

The Palabarian can use a fullplate, losing only his fast movement, for weapon I think a greatsword.
A few Benchmarks:

5th level:
BAB:+5 HP:10+2d10+2d12+15=49 Fort+12 Ref+6 Will+6 Init:+2
AC:20 DR:1/- Lay on hands 4/day 1d6+2 Skillpoints=9
Base Attack: +10 2d6+4 19-20/x2
Rage PA: +10 2d6+13 19-20/x2 Saves increase to +14 +8 +8 AC drops to 18
Smiting Rage PA: +13 2d6+16 AC climbs to 21
Increase damage +1 against casters
Immune to fear and diseases

12th level:
BAB:+12/+7/+2 HP:10+2d10+9d12+36=115 Fort+18 Ref+9 Will+9 Init:+2
AC:23 DR:4/- Lay on hands 4/day 1d6+2 Skillpoints=30
Base Attack: +17/12/7 2d6+6 19-20/x2
Rage PA: +20/15/10 2d6+22 19-20/x2 Saves increase to +23 +14 +14 AC drops to 17
Smiting Rage PA: +23/18/13 2d6+25 AC climbs to 20
Increase damage +3 against casters
Two primary claws deal 1d6+17 if he is disarmed
Spell sunder CMB 19
Raging Dazing Assault +19/14/9 each attack can daze for one round DC22
Immune to fear and diseases

20th level:
BAB:+20/+15/+10/+5 HP:10+7d10+12d12+60=186 Fort+20 Ref+11 Will+13 Init:+2
AC:26 DR:6/- Lay on hands 9/day 4d6+8 Skillpoints=45
Base Attack: +25/20/15/10 2d6+7 19-20/x2
Rage PA: +28/23/18/13 2d6+30 19-20/x2 Saves increase to +26 +17 +20 AC drops to 18
Smiting Rage PA: +31/26/21/16 2d6+38 AC climbs to 21
Increase damage +4 against casters
Two primary claws deal 1d6+20 if he is disarmed
Spell sunder CMB 27
Raging Dazing Assault +29/24/19/14 each attack can daze for one round DC30
Can spend 3 rounds of rage to do 4 extra damage for one round
Can pounce
Can reroll save throws
Immune to fear and diseases and charm
Can increase enemies attack by 4 to hit them with 3 AoOs
Can give a +2 to any weapon he uses 1/day
Can cast a few first and second level spells

That is all without any magic items. And I forgot to account for the Maenad Outburst.


VM mercenario wrote:

Ok here's what I've got:

Maenad
*words*

I love it. And, again, if a GM didn't allow the Maenad race, the mythic ability would get it done. Just would have to do 8-10 levels of Paladin up front and add in the Barb levels later, or vice versa. Would play differently, but the end result would be the same.

And for the other folks, I don't think just a Paladin with Rage is the idea, since Clerics can do that, too, even Oracles. The idea is the Barb goodies like Rage powers, CAGM, etc.

Liberty's Edge

As others have mentioned, Sacred Servant (worship Ragathiel for the Rage subdomain) is the way to go. Get yourself a Furious Courageous weapon, and you'll destroys everything, evil or otherwise. Your attack, damage, saves, and AC are all through the roof. Gods help you if you're an evil outsider, evil dragon, or undead.


actually yourpalabarian could wear mithral fullplate and still use fast movement, since it's medium armor at that point.


Don't forget the Viking archetype gives rage powers also.


Here's my take on a similar thing to what VM did:

Human Oath of Vengeance Paladin (4) Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (16):

Stats: 16(+2)/13/14/7/7/16

Level 1 (P): Power Attack, Combat Reflexes (Smite)
Level 2 (B): (Rage)
Level 3 (B): Lesser Beast Totem, Superstition
Level 4 (P): (Divine grace)
Level 5 (P): Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon (Mercy, immune to fear/disease)
Level 6 (P): (Super-smite from Oath of Vengeance)
Level 7 (B): ERP: With Hunter
Level 8 (B): Spell Sunder
Level 9 (B): ERP: Beast Totem
Level 10 (B): Greater Beast Totem
Level 11 (B): Dazing Assault
Level 12 (B): Come and Get Me
Level 13 (B) : Improved Critical
Level 14 (B) : Strength Surge
Level 15 (B): Critical Focus
Level 16 (B): Improved Damage Reduction
Level 17 (B): Staggering Critical
Level 18 (B): Improved Damage Reduction
Level 19 (B): Stunning Critical
Level 20 (B): Improved Damage Reduction

-------------------------------------------

Big trade-offs:
Positives for my build:
1.) I pick up the core barbarian stuff a bit earlier (Greater beast at 10 vs. 13, CAGM at 12 vs. 15, spell sunder at 8 vs 9, etc)
2.) I end up with a 5/- more DR (4 more levels of invulnerable rager, 3 Improved Damage reductions)
3.) Superstition saves are a lot better. 15 levels of human class bonus = +5 to all saves.
4.) Full critical focus build on mine. Critical feats are stupid good at high levels.
5.) I pick up strength surge. Strength Surge + Spell Sunder + Rage Cycling = Automatically gets rid of spells. Can't miss this. =)

Negatives for my build:
1.) I don't get to cure staggered condition.
2.) He has 1 more lay on hands.
3.) God is my int/wis embarrassing.
4.) I have a little less self-healing
5.) I don't get to use a holy magic sword for 1 combat.

Same basic idea, I think the feat/class progression is a little more optimized in my case.

-Cross


Looks good to me, Crosswind. Although once again, unless you play a Maenid or something I'm overlooking, you'll need at least 8 levels of one or the other until you can access Beyond Morality, so it might have to be 8 Barb/4 Paladin/8 Barb which alters things slightly, but should still play pretty similarly.


ecw1701 wrote:
Looks good to me, Crosswind. Although once again, unless you play a Maenid or something I'm overlooking, you'll need at least 8 levels of one or the other until you can access Beyond Morality, so it might have to be 8 Barb/4 Paladin/8 Barb which alters things slightly, but should still play pretty similarly.

Yeah, plays pretty much identically, except it sucks a bit more at earlier levels, because the first 4 levels of paladin are frontloaded as hell.

-Cross

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