Lets say you and your squad of tough guys are in formation, making your way slowly down a tunnel, ready and expecting to be attacked. You hear skittering things. The high perception folks see them moving in the distance. They're coming right at you. Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide.
You roll initiative.
The baddies roll well. Your squad does not.
They rush you, moving a good 50 feet from the time you noticed them and hunkered down to when they're on top of you.
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
Before your first regular turn in the initiative order, you have not had a chance to act. This means you are Flat-Footed.
If there was enough time between spotting the threat and taking action, then perhaps the combat should have begun sooner, giving each side more actions before meeting head on. But if they beat you on initiative, and are close enough to move into range in one turn, then yes, you haven't acted yet and should be flat-footed.
I have this exact same problem with this rule. Your example is very specific, but it doesn't even have to be thus so.
Stand opposite from any person, whom you are complete enemies with, weapons drawn, shouting words before initiative is rolled. Someone in this scenario will be flat footed, despite being entirely aware of the battle about to happen.
For this reason, my group has a house rule: not flat footed before your first initiative unless the attacker has sneak attack. This prevents rogues and the like from being gimped from the removal of this rule (especially considering they are already a bit weak in comparison), yet removes the silliness in the context already mentioned.
Obviously, surprise rounds or someone who is truly unaware and the like all will follow normal rules.
I can see it if you failed perception checks or otherwise didn't know they were coming, or if they started close, or managed to bluff you, but if you are standing there at the ready, and get charged from 50+ feet away by something that isn't even bothering with stealth, how are you caught off guard?
I have this exact same problem with this rule. Your example is very specific, but it doesn't even have to be thus so.
Stand opposite from any person, whom you are complete enemies with, weapons drawn, shouting words before initiative is rolled. Someone in this scenario will be flat footed, despite being entirely aware of the battle about to happen.
For this reason, my group has a house rule: not flat footed before your first initiative unless the attacker has sneak attack. This prevents rogues and the like from being gimped from the removal of this rule (especially considering they are already a bit weak in comparison), yet removes the silliness in the context already mentioned.
Obviously, surprise rounds or someone who is truly unaware and the like all will follow normal rules.
And yet, the whole reason to engage in banter in combat is to distract your opponent and catch them unaware. Strange.
You are flat-footed simply because that is what the rule is. It is a way to reward those with high initiative.
As an example some BBEG could give a long speech, and then combat starts, and you will still be flat-footed if he wins initiative.
You are caught off-guard not because you're not aware of their existence (that would be a surprise round), but because you weren't able to react to the sudden outbreak of combat fast enough.
Yes, even if you expected there would be combat with the BBEG you were shouting insults to, when he suddenly struck out a dagger at you it would still be a surprise that it happened at that precise moment as opposed to a couple of seconds later or earlier. Hence, you're flat-footed.
And yet, the whole reason to engage in banter in combat is to distract your opponent and catch them unaware. Strange.
You are flat-footed simply because that is what the rule is. It is a way to reward those with high initiative.
As an example some BBEG could give a long speech, and then combat starts, and you will still be flat-footed if he wins initiative.
I can accept both of these, except that initiative is has such a large spread and relatively small modifiers. Even a 20 Dex only increases your chance of winning initiative by 25%. Add Improved Initiative, and you're still only looking at a 45% greater chance of winning - by no means a guaranteed success, and a bit silly when you think of losing to the 10 Dex/no feat monster. It's not really until you get in very specific class abilities that initiative modifiers start becoming an important factor in the roll.
At the very least, there should be a "readying initiative" action, that gives you bonuses to your initiative.
You are caught off-guard not because you're not aware of their existence (that would be a surprise round), but because you weren't able to react to the sudden outbreak of combat fast enough.
Yes, even if you expected there would be combat with the BBEG you were shouting insults to, when he suddenly struck out a dagger at you it would still be a surprise that it happened at that precise moment as opposed to a couple of seconds later or earlier. Hence, you're flat-footed.
Combat training in real life places a huge amount of importance on immediate reactions. The first sign of danger, and you're supposed go into fight mode. You can find plenty of videos of people with training who are in a regular situation, then a fight breaks out or someone pulls out a weapon, and before you can even register what's going on, the culprit is down with their neck being pressed in by a knee.
This is people who are just standing around, not people who are aware of imminent combat.
|
@Vendis: The example in your last paragraph sounds like someone with Combat Reflexes reacting instinctively. Someone punching you provokes AoO, you respond by grappling them and, because they don't have IUS, you have them pinned in the "surprise" round, which is before anyone else has had a chance to react. This is a capability that someone with lots of martial training would easily have. Especially if they're a human fighter, which would have that plus one extra feat at level 1. (Also, the PF rules aren't meant to model every possible thing.) That, or they have something similar to Uncanny Dodge.
Flat-footed represents the prevention of *deliberate* reaction. You saw the enemy. You thought about what to do. You prepared to do it. Now you're doing it. In the case of the sudden outbreak of fight, you can react instinctively quite quickly, but deliberate and thoughtful action takes longer. If you want to be that "instinctive reactions" guy, take levels in something to get Uncanny Dodge and you'll have it. Combat Reflexes can patch the hole if you don't want to do that, but not fully.
Not every character can react in 0.3s to an aggressor, nor should they (that would be too same-y), but some characters can and do.
EDIT: Just realized that the grapple couldn't have been off of the AoO, but a trip easily could have followed by a grapple on their actual turn. Rather immaterial, though, as my point stands: Not everyone is supposed to react on a dime in those kinds of cases, and most people don't. Those that train for it can, and they have things to represent that: Improved Initiative, Uncanny Dodge, Combat Reflexes, etc
I think this best compares to the old wild west movies.
Two gunslingers meet on a street at high noon, staring each other down. Their hands linger by their pistols, while they exchange ultimatums, or perhaps just a steady glare.
Suddenly, the quicker one draws! He shoots his opponent who was too slow, and didn't look remotely ready. He was still going for his gun!
Voila. High initiative roll catches the other guy flat footed, and he takes a bullet to the chest.
It's hard to translate real life fighting to a combat that is structured around rules and turns. The combat system is an abstraction. Initiative and turns are used to provide structure and give form to something that isn't easily translated into simple mechanics.
A world class martial artist wouldn't give an average joe any second to respond in a serious fight, but any turn-based combat system allows both parties an equal amount of time and actions (even if said martial artist could make better use of his actions).
That's why I intentionally left out any terms in my example. It was more to explain the concept. The OP's example is a much more specific case that better exemplifies the silliness in the flat-footed-before-acting rule.
Flat-footed as a concept is fine with me. It's the thought of automatically being flat-footed every combat (even if no attack is ever made, every combatant but the first is still flat-footed for a time), regardless of circumstance, simply because the enemy is luckier, that I don't like.
EDIT: Also, you still get your Dex to Reflex Save while flat-footed, unless I'm missing something. If reflexes aren't reactionary, I don't know what is.
Lets say you and your squad of tough guys are in formation, making your way slowly down a tunnel, ready and expecting to be attacked. You hear skittering things. The high perception folks see them moving in the distance. They're coming right at you. Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide.
You roll initiative.
The baddies roll well. Your squad does not.
They rush you, moving a good 50 feet from the time you noticed them and hunkered down to when they're on top of you.
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
At the point you noticed the enemy with perception you should have rolled initiative, if they didn't also notice you then you should have had a surprise round. You could have used that surprise round to "hunker down" then when they bust in on the first regular round of combat you would not be flat footed.
The problem was that as soon as the enemy was spotted by either side, or both sides, initiative should have been rolled. If you noticed them first, you should have been given the surprise round, and attacked them flat footed.
I have a question from this: Since you can restricted charge on a surprise round, could you use that round to ready a restricted charge? That way, you can jump out and attack when they enter the room.
So based on the replies in this thread, there is absolutely no mechanical difference between being "ready to fight" (weapons up, moving cautiously around corners in a dungeon) and just walking casually using your sword as a walking stick and being generally disinterested in your surroundings. As long as your weapon is in hand so you don't have to draw it, you're good.
There is zero incentive to actually prepare to be attacked.
In fact, i'm not sure there are even mechanics for being "ready" for combat to break out.
Sure there are incentives to "being ready". You avoid taking penalties to Perception for being distracted, and you avoid your opponents getting a surprise round against you.
Those are certainly good reasons to "be ready" in my book.
If you're actually so aware of the other group that you know they'll be charging you at any minute, in my games I'd certainly give you the opportunity to ready actions to attack if they attack you.
|
So based on the replies in this thread, there is absolutely no mechanical difference between being "ready to fight" (weapons up, moving cautiously around corners in a dungeon) and just walking casually using your sword as a walking stick and being generally disinterested in your surroundings. As long as your weapon is in hand so you don't have to draw it, you're good.
There is zero incentive to actually prepare to be attacked.
In fact, i'm not sure there are even mechanics for being "ready" for combat to break out.
The game assumes that experienced adventurers move around a dungeon or other dangerous area in a cautious and tactically-aware fashion and that if they have weapons in hand, they're prepared to use them.
If the players state some action that makes it obvious they're not paying attention or expecting an attack, a GM can apply various penalties.
In fact, i'm not sure there are even mechanics for being "ready" for combat to break out.
There are, you just need to adjust your understanding of what combat "breaking out" is. As others have noted, you should roll initiative when you initially become aware of an enemy, not when you are done bantering or bashing down doors to get to each other.
On your initiative, you can choose to use Delay or Ready Action to "hunker down." Those are your "get ready for combat" actions. You'll get to use a full-round action instead of wasting a move like your opponent, and given the way that full-attacks work you have are at a distinct advantage. I'd say the rules work just fine in this scenario.
So based on the replies in this thread, there is absolutely no mechanical difference between being "ready to fight" (weapons up, moving cautiously around corners in a dungeon) and just walking casually using your sword as a walking stick and being generally disinterested in your surroundings. As long as your weapon is in hand so you don't have to draw it, you're good.
There is zero incentive to actually prepare to be attacked.
In fact, i'm not sure there are even mechanics for being "ready" for combat to break out.
Except that whole surprise round thing, where you can charge, fire a bow or gun, cast a spell, drink a potion, get into place, sneak attack, probably other stuff. Plus then your opponent is flat footed, even if they end up with a better initiative than you.
EDIT: OH YEAH! Delays! That's a great way to turn a surprise round into kicking someone's butt. Does that work?
If they're starting far enough away, on their initiative they move, on your initiative you move, no ones flat footed.
We've all seen movie scenes where a bad guy has a gun up to a cop's head, totally prepared to pull the trigger. Suddenly our cop hero elbows the bad guy in the gut, spins around, takes the gun and thereby turns the table.
Equating flat-footedness with awareness doesn't work.
Have you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail? Who knew bunnies could leap so far, so fast? Well, it turns out that rats are also much faster than anticipated. And dexterous. Your fighter types were ready to swing at them, but they zipped around from an unexpected angle and started eating ankle. You need a moment to adjust your tactics and during that time you are flat-footed.
|
|
In situations like this, when the characters know an encounter is coming either by seeing the orcs on top of the ridge, or hearing the insects on the other side of the door, but the encountering monsters also know the PCs are arriving soon either by early warning bells, spotting them, hunting them, or scent & a successful perception, I usually open the combat in surprise round:
even if everyone is getting to act, their choice of actions is restricted to very combat maneuvers such as casting bless, getting into formation, bracing for a charge, etc. It also means that by the time true combat happens, everyone has technically taken a turn and is thus not flat-footed.
Lets say you and your squad of tough guys are in formation, making your way slowly down a tunnel, ready and expecting to be attacked. You hear skittering things. The high perception folks see them moving in the distance. They're coming right at you. Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide.
You roll initiative.
The baddies roll well. Your squad does not.
They rush you, moving a good 50 feet from the time you noticed them and hunkered down to when they're on top of you.
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
As others have noted, this should have been rolling initiative much earlier. "Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide." These are combat actions. The PCs (or NPCs, if your players happen to be playing the skittering things) were using the 'ready action' action to prepare for the next round, or delaying their actions, as the case may be. None of them should have been caught flat-footed, because combat should have begun as soon as the presence of foes was noted. ("What ho, a foe?")
At the very least, there should be a "readying initiative" action, that gives you bonuses to your initiative.
There is, and I mentioned them both in the previous paragraph. One is 'ready action' which allows you to 'interrupt' another character's action with your own. In the example given by the OP, anyone with a missile weapon available would have been able to ready an action to shoot or throw the missile at the first foe who comes within X distance, most likely within their weapon's range increment or within the range for point-blank shot's bonus. Melee characters with a brace weapon could brace it against a charge, since charges frequently take place at the beginning of combat. Spellcasters could ready a spell to cast in the same way as the missilers, as soon as the targets are in range. If they don't want to decide in advance what to do, they can delay their action, which means they act at the end of the round/beginning of the next round (no difference) and their initiative changes to that place in the order permanently. Useful for healers who want to wait to see if anyone gets injured.
One should be flat-footed only if one was not aware of the location of the opponents, or if one did not anticipate the beginning of combat beforehand. Some other situations, too, e.g. certain mechanics may specify that one being or another is flat-footed under certain circumstances, but those two are the main ones.
Why is the western gunman example described as flatfooted? Couldn't the shooter have simply won Initiative?
Why is the western gunman example described as flatfooted? Couldn't the shooter have simply won Initiative?
Yes. And that's the exact thing that causes the other person to be flat-footed. As per the rules, a character is flat-footed until they've acted in combat. So if one gunman won initiative, the other gunman must be flat-footed.
Lets say you and your squad of tough guys are in formation, making your way slowly down a tunnel, ready and expecting to be attacked. You hear skittering things. The high perception folks see them moving in the distance. They're coming right at you. Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide.
You roll initiative.
The baddies roll well. Your squad does not.
They rush you, moving a good 50 feet from the time you noticed them and hunkered down to when they're on top of you.
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
In your example, there are two ways to interpret what's going on...
(I assume the tunnel is dark and the adventurers have a lightsource?)#1) They hear skittering ahead, sort of catch a glimps of something moving, they're sort-of expecting something, then... (Here's where you roll for initiative and the melee begins)... Things start jumping at them from out of the darkness and all hell breaks lose. Hence losing the initiative and being flat-footed. In this case the DM ruled that the critters were ALSO aware of the PC group.
#2) They hear skittering ahead, catch a glimps of something moving,... (Here the DM rules that the critters are not yet aware of the PCs and asks for initiative, and a SURPRISE ROUND begins)... The rogue moves to the back of the group, the fighter and the ranger both ready an attack (to hit the first thing that comes into range), the wizard casts Shield on himself, and the cleric 'Blesses' the group, then... Things start jumping out at them, but this time they were really ready for it. In this case, the group still lost the initiative, but got to act first in a surprise round before the critters got to them, and are not flat footed.
So both scenarios are good. It's how I would rule it anyways.
Ultradan
In any event, you must consider that most enemies are ALSO expecting combat.
:)
Ultradan
In a case of boxers in a boxing ring, I would assume that the first round would be when the bell rings and both boxers hit their gloves as a sign of respect for the other boxer. So I wouldn't have them be flat-footed either.
Although I imagine that boxers would have a feat that would render them immune to being flat-footed.
lol
Ultradan
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
-This does make sense in some situations. Ever watch a horror movie? You know its a horror movie. You know something is going to jump out at you... at some point. If the movie is any good they'll surprise you with it anyway and make the audience jump. That split second of "AHHHHhhhhh" is what the surprise round and flat footed is, and that AHhhhhh moment happens even if you're generally expecting trouble at some point.
|
|
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
-This does make sense in some situations. Ever watch a horror movie? You know its a horror movie. You know something is going to jump out at you... at some point. If the movie is any good they'll surprise you with it anyway and make the audience jump. That split second of "AHHHHhhhhh" is what the surprise round and flat footed is, and that AHhhhhh moment happens even if you're generally expecting trouble at some point.
Problem is, that is a surprise round. flat footed makes sense. When Jason appears in the doorway, he gets a free shot with his machete unless you heard him.
|
|
Also note - you can ask the GM to roll initiative any time you as a character can detect a threat. So, when the perception guys hear them, you can say, "We roll initiative now", and then spend your first round continuing to advance, watching for them, etc. Thus, the flatfootedness passes before the enemy can capitalize on it.
Ultimately, if you make a perception check to detect an enemy, that's when initiative should start. The GM can move the minis in his or her head rather than putting them on the map if required.
Also note - you can ask the GM to roll initiative any time you as a character can detect a threat. So, when the perception guys hear them, you can say, "We roll initiative now", and then spend your first round continuing to advance, watching for them, etc. Thus, the flatfootedness passes before the enemy can capitalize on it.
Ultimately, if you make a perception check to detect an enemy, that's when initiative should start. The GM can move the minis in his or her head rather than putting them on the map if required.
When you know it is a threat then yeah that makes sense, but if it is just a noise(as far as the character(PC or NPC) knows) initiative should not be rolled. Most things are not going to be detected off of the map though.
So, if I wanted to be "ready for combat" I'd need to ready an action outside of combat, which would resolve just before initiative. Something like "shoot first visible threat".
I'd still possibly be flat footed, but at least then I might get a shot off before getting bum-rushed.
So, if I wanted to be "ready for combat" I'd need to ready an action outside of combat, which would resolve just before initiative. Something like "shoot first visible threat".
I'd still possibly be flat footed, but at least then I might get a shot off before getting bum-rushed.
If you're readying an action, then you should be in combat, which is fine. I guess it could work, but you'd slow the entire party down by wasting half of your available movement. You're better off just saying that you're actively looking for a threat so you don't get penalties on your perception checks, so you can spot the enemy first, so you can get the surprise round, so you're no flat footed and the baddies are.
Problem is, that is a surprise round. flat footed makes sense. When Jason appears in the doorway, he gets a free shot with his machete unless you heard him.
Right.. but he STILL does that whether you know you'd in a haunted house or not. You can't just say "I'm inia dungeon, of course i excpect danger.
In the op's scenario the high perception people noticed the thing skittering and are braced, the low perception folks did not.
I think a significant problem is GM's not adjudicating the surprise round as well as they should. In the OP's, example, if the party is advancing (seemingly carefully and quietly), then it seems to me that a prepared and perceptive caster might notice the enemies first, and get off a spell, in the surprise round.
Outside of that, the rules are still unrealistic, and simply have to be accepted for their silliness. Per RAW, if I win initiative, and I'm able to take a full attack action, I make every single one of my iterative attacks against my enemy, before he ever gets to take the first action. Queue up the archer with 13 arrows I read about in another thread (still not sure how that number was arrived at, but hey).
Per RAW, every character is Bruce Lee, and every opponent losing initiative is also Bruce Lee, but only with a delay. Time-wise, though, you pretty much have to design the game this way, IMO, or else combat drags out too long, and the fun factor goes away.
|
|
Lets say you and your squad of tough guys are in formation, making your way slowly down a tunnel, ready and expecting to be attacked. You hear skittering things. The high perception folks see them moving in the distance. They're coming right at you. Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide.
You roll initiative.
The baddies roll well. Your squad does not.
They rush you, moving a good 50 feet from the time you noticed them and hunkered down to when they're on top of you.
You are Flat Footed? According to the rules you are.
You noticed them, weren't surprised (no surprise round), and had weapons and shields drawn.
How in the world do they catch you off guard?
It is all in your opening sentences: "Warnings are shouted, people hunker down and brace for the tide."
Your high perception guys see someone ans give a warning, then the whole group is bracing for the tide. In the same time enemy is rushing onward against you.
When they reach your group some or all of the members of your group aren't jet ready, they were looking in the wrong direction and are still looking where is the enemy, they were picking their nose, the shield was not set rightly for use but grabbed the wrong way for ease of travel, they were drinking water or wine from their canteen and so on.
"Weapon and shield are draw" is not the same thing as "weapon and shield are ready to be used against a group of hobgobling coming from our flank left."