So we had a quite new player to Pathfinder and he did not choose a deity and played his Wizard as an Atheist.
Now he died... According to our DM he cannot be resurrected as he did have no deity and his soul is lost to the Abyss.
I've seen a post that it is at least possible to play godless characters (even cleriks according to James Jacobs (Creative Director))
Is there no way to revive him? We really woule appreciate to not loose him after all. :/
Yes.
With "normal" means, e.g. Raise Dead/Resurrection?
By yes, I mean he can be resurrected. Realized it may have been vague.
Thanks guys <3 You really helped me :)
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Also remember the old adage "even though you may not believe in the gods, they believe in YOU".
I'd suggest that this situation doesn't come up that often simply because atheism in this setting isn't quite sane. You'd be just a well off not to believe in kobolds, for example. Anyway, there's neither any mechanical nor logical reason why the magic wouldn't work.
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Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.
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Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.
It's only a good rule if the GM let the player know in advance. If he didn't mention anything until after the character died, then he's just being a cruel GM.
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Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.
I disagree, to say that you need a god to resurrect someone, what if they don't worship the same god? Would you deny them as well? If so, then why bother having a resurrection spell at all? This spell also requires a 5,000 gp or more diamond, that's a hard enough reagent to get in the first place, adding a further requirement seems a bit extreme, especially for something that you also have to wait a long time to get.
The simple fact of the matter is that player characters don't need gods to function. None of the classes require you worship a god, except the Inquisitor, and that's literally only for their domain/inquisition. Which can very easily be house-ruled out.
Would you also place similar restrictions on healing? Especially when it's the Cleric's power and not their god's power?
Agreed with all others who say that worship or belief is not required for Raise Dead and the like. I have to wonder what effect will have on the Wizard too. Mayhaps he won't be quite so sure in his beliefs after he's had a stint in the afterlife. Sounds like good roleplaying opportunity to me.
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From the Campaign Setting Book pg. 185
"One group of souls stands apart, however - atheists who actively denied their own afterlives. Unlike agnostics - whose souls Pharasma judges against their own character without punishment, like many other souls without a pre-determined fate - the truly atheist have, in a way, impacted their souls' solidarity and disrupted their natural ability to migrate through the Astral. Many remain behind as ghosts or similar spirits on the Material Plane, others fall into the hands of fiends, while those who reach Pharasma's palace are locked away within the tombs and graves therein, awaiting an unknown, uncertain fate below Groetus's grim, eternal vigil."
This is the only thing I found that I know of. I do remember a wall in which atheists are stuck in, but my husband says that is only in Forgotten Realms.
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Kelemvor's Wall, in the Fugue Plane (True Neutral plane, a.k.a. Concordant Opposition, a.k.a. The Outlands).
In FR, godless souls would become stuck in Kelemvor's Wall, for eternity, AND, might be stolen out of the wall by roving bands of demons, and taken back to the Abyss, to become lemures.
Yeah, FR got more stupid with every expansion. As if it weren't bad enough with the rule that Elminster and the other Chosen of Mystra would always trump your characters, no matter how epic you got, then they go and make the setting all about the deities. Mystra IS magic. If she dies, all magic goes *poof.* And the b!#@% got killed off more times than Kenny.
As an aside, if there is any class that would disdain religion, wouldn't it make the most sense for wizards and sorcerers to be at the top of that list?
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Yeah even the Iconic Wizard is listed as Athesist
From the Campaign Setting Book pg. 185
"One group of souls stands apart, however - atheists who actively denied their own afterlives. Unlike agnostics - whose souls Pharasma judges against their own character without punishment, like many other souls without a pre-determined fate - the truly atheist have, in a way, impacted their souls' solidarity and disrupted their natural ability to migrate through the Astral. Many remain behind as ghosts or similar spirits on the Material Plane, others fall into the hands of fiends, while those who reach Pharasma's palace are locked away within the tombs and graves therein, awaiting an unknown, uncertain fate below Groetus's grim, eternal vigil."This is the only thing I found that I know of. I do remember a wall in which atheists are stuck in, but my husband says that is only in Forgotten Realms.
Please note however that they actually redefine what an atheist is with that line -- it's not just those that deny the gods... it's those that deny their own afterlives.
Please note however that they actually redefine what an atheist is with that line -- it's not just those that deny the gods... it's those that deny their own afterlives.
Good catch. An atheist in RL doesn't believe in God(s) or an afterlife. Such a person in Golarion would most likely be very rare, as there is a lot of evidence that the gods and their extraplanar servants exist, and many stories of resurrections done with divine magic. Add in things like the Worldwound and undead running around, and the idea of there being nothing after death; no other planes or worlds where demons come from, no gods granting clerics spells, etc., is harder to justify.
I think a Golarion non-believer, and perhaps Ezren, thinks more along the lines of having no loyalty to any gods, and dismissing them as unworthy of worship or deference. Being aware of the planes and the stories surrounding them, he likely would believe that the gods exist in some form, and that souls and bodies are separate. Just my 2 coppers.
Exactly for a wizard who can basicly cast spells on par with Miracle without any divine intervention the Gods dont seem as amazingly powerful and might be dissmissed as simply stronger version of the current outsiders.
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any athiest in pathfinder would most likely be an uneducated individual that would dismiss resserection stories as rumors but a wizard by definition is a highly educated individual who understands some of the workings of the universe thus would certianly believe in an afterlife even if she doesn't follow any gods. Also divine magic works on faith not the god which is why a cleric does not need to follow a diety and thus a wizard could be ressurected without the help of a diety at all.
Nope. This is the forgotten realms approach. Its not part of 3.5 or Golarion. Pharasma directs any soul to the waiting room or judges them as she sees fit. Even worshiping her won't change it much. (i hope they at least get a nicer waiting room out of it...)
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I'm of the opinion that not believing in gods in pathfinder is silly.
Not worshiping them? Cool with that.
Don't believe in them? May as well not believe in elves.
any athiest in pathfinder would most likely be an uneducated individual that would dismiss resserection stories as rumors but a wizard by definition is a highly educated individual who understands some of the workings of the universe thus would certianly believe in an afterlife even if she doesn't follow any gods. Also divine magic works on faith not the god which is why a cleric does not need to follow a diety and thus a wizard could be ressurected without the help of a diety at all.
Which is completely and totally broken by:
Witch, Druid, Oracle, and paladins with ultimate mercy
None of which require a god or faith.
Not to mention simply running the old limited wish for raise dead.
any athiest in pathfinder would most likely be an uneducated individual that would dismiss resserection stories as rumors but a wizard by definition is a highly educated individual who understands some of the workings of the universe thus would certianly believe in an afterlife even if she doesn't follow any gods. Also divine magic works on faith not the god which is why a cleric does not need to follow a diety and thus a wizard could be ressurected without the help of a diety at all.
There's an entire nation of atheists on golarion, and they're listed as being rather well educated and enamored of philosophy.
This isn't so much a denile of the gods existance in the sense that we use atheism in the real world. It can break down into a number of forms
maltheist: Yes, the gods exist, but they're bad. Look at all the fighting that goes on because of them.
bigwhooptheist: Ok. you're a god. There are DOZENS of different types of extra dimensional beings, many of which can level continents, destroy armies, introduce plagues. What makes you so special?
ok, a cleric says some funny words and brings the dead back to life. A wizard says some funny words and a fireball pops out of his keister. Magic is magic.
I'm of the opinion that not believing in gods in pathfinder is silly.
Not worshiping them? Cool with that.
Don't believe in them? May as well not believe in elves.
Believing what? Ramzir is trying that line already and Aroden died.
Hardly worthy of the title "God" -- I mean they even brought a new one into being just to try and kill those mortals that can kill the gods.
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Partially the reason why I enjoyed Death's Heretic so much, this plot point has direct relevance to this subject:
Rahadoum is .the. example of atheism in Golarion. The entire kingdom accepts the existence of the gods, but refuses to make them a part of their lives and give them any sort of worship. A Rahadoumi character would, most likely, refuse any form of divine resurrection as it would go against everything he believed in.
Also remember the old adage "even though you may not believe in the gods, they believe in YOU".
Exactly. The request goes from the cleric DOING THE RESURRECTING to THAT cleric's god, who then does it at the cleric's request.
Whether the dead person believes in the same god as the cleric probably has never been an issue to this GM, so why would not believing in any god be different?
And being a god, the cleric's god still has it within his power, even if the dead atheist's soul simply obliterated.
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I'm of the opinion that not believing in gods in pathfinder is silly.
Not worshiping them? Cool with that.
Don't believe in them? May as well not believe in elves.
I'm going to paraphrase Granny Weathwerwax "I know the gods exist, but I don't believe in them any more than I believe in a table."
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So we had a quite new player to Pathfinder and he did not choose a deity and played his Wizard as an Atheist.
Now he died... According to our DM he cannot be resurrected as he did have no deity and his soul is lost to the Abyss.
I've seen a post that it is at least possible to play godless characters (even cleriks according to James Jacobs (Creative Director))
Is there no way to revive him? We really woule appreciate to not loose him after all. :/
Well ultimately it depends on your DM, and what he wants for his game and his game world.
I believe athiests can be raised from the dead.
In Golaron, i believe, the final resting place, barring a ressurection, a Faustian pact, or a “trap the soul” spell, for the souls of atheists is in the Boneyard of Pharasma.
I think it is about time someone explained the term 'atheist':
It means someone who does not believe in a god/higher power or whatever a believer wants to call it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
To describe an atheist as someone who knows there is a god but does not worship it is ridiculous. An atheist does not believe there is a god nothing more, nothing less.
While I am an atheist in RL, maintaining an atheist approach in Pathfinder where greater powers obviously have an influence and effects would be somewhat unrealistic, but not impossible.
I in fact delight in playing a very religious character in Pathfinder as the gods there will actually grant me powers.
Considering that worlds are created by the gods in pathfinder it would be somewhat silly if they all agreed on rules to exclude specific philosophies from being raised or not. Although I could agree certain deities might actually enforce this for their priests. I could even see the atheist being used as a weapon against another god, used to undermine the faith in the followers of that diety in order to weaken that diety. So the gods could have a serious reason for needing a group of atheists.
If this is a house rule for a party I wouldn't mind provided I knew this in advance because it is not a standard rule and holds serious repercussions.
It doesn't mean that all house rules need to be announced in advance. For instance I was GM for a party in a world that allowed players to gain 1 permanent HP if they drank a blessed potion of cure light at full health.
A potion of cure moderate would gain 2 permanent HP, etc., etc..
If they drank it without being at full health it would heal at maximum strength.
You could never gain more HP then your Maximum, the hit dice would allow. The blessing off course could not be done by the party, but needed a high level cleric that would do so as a favor, if he (the GM off course) would consider it as a just reward. This was a house rule which I introduced during the first session (stole the idea from Prince of Persia). This was a surprise house rule and believe me they were bending over backwards to find potions of healing of any kind and using them, instead of holding on to them forever. As a side effect it completely wasted anger over a bad roll in the hitpoint department as that might be remedied later on. Noone ever reached maximum hitpoints and still everyone was really happy about that rule.
The word you're looking for is 'naythiest'.
In a world where the gods obviously exist, there is no such thing as an atheist (except, perhaps, for the insane). The term 'naythiest' means an individual that recognizes the existence of (a) god(s), but believe such (a) being(s) is/are undeserving of worship.
I'm a naythiest in real life.
Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.I disagree, to say that you need a god to resurrect someone, what if they don't worship the same god? Would you deny them as well? If so, then why bother having a resurrection spell at all? This spell also requires a 5,000 gp or more diamond, that's a hard enough reagent to get in the first place, adding a further requirement seems a bit extreme, especially for something that you also have to wait a long time to get.
The simple fact of the matter is that player characters don't need gods to function. None of the classes require you worship a god, except the Inquisitor, and that's literally only for their domain/inquisition. Which can very easily be house-ruled out.
Would you also place similar restrictions on healing? Especially when it's the Cleric's power and not their god's power?
Inquisitor can worship divine concept like cleric.
Inquisitor can worship divine concept like cleric.Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.I disagree, to say that you need a god to resurrect someone, what if they don't worship the same god? Would you deny them as well? If so, then why bother having a resurrection spell at all? This spell also requires a 5,000 gp or more diamond, that's a hard enough reagent to get in the first place, adding a further requirement seems a bit extreme, especially for something that you also have to wait a long time to get.
The simple fact of the matter is that player characters don't need gods to function. None of the classes require you worship a god, except the Inquisitor, and that's literally only for their domain/inquisition. Which can very easily be house-ruled out.
Would you also place similar restrictions on healing? Especially when it's the Cleric's power and not their god's power?
Can they in Golarion though? I thought all divine casters needed a deity in Golarion.
Can they in Golarion though? I thought all divine casters needed a deity in Golarion.Inquisitor can worship divine concept like cleric.Sounds like a house rule for the GM's game. And I'd say it is a good one.I disagree, to say that you need a god to resurrect someone, what if they don't worship the same god? Would you deny them as well? If so, then why bother having a resurrection spell at all? This spell also requires a 5,000 gp or more diamond, that's a hard enough reagent to get in the first place, adding a further requirement seems a bit extreme, especially for something that you also have to wait a long time to get.
The simple fact of the matter is that player characters don't need gods to function. None of the classes require you worship a god, except the Inquisitor, and that's literally only for their domain/inquisition. Which can very easily be house-ruled out.
Would you also place similar restrictions on healing? Especially when it's the Cleric's power and not their god's power?
Actually according to standard rules neither rangers nor paladins (divine magic) need a specific deity but may worship an ideal instead. And clerics may design a new nonspecific diety instead. They can still worship a specific diety but do not need to.
I am unaware if Golarion has specific rules about worship but it might.
In the 2nd edition AD&D campaign setting of 'wrath of the immortals' (basically diety warfare) clerics gain spells only if their diety allows them to do so(they have to spend power to do so). A diety would normally grant them without a second thought, but could block specific priests if the diety would deem the cleric as having become unworthy. A warning dream or even manifestation of the diety itself would give the cleric a heads up. If the diety would be unable to provide the power neccassary to grant spells to it's mortal representatives they would no longer gain spells at their daily ritual. This does not mean mortals wield direkt immortal magic (which is considerably stronger then mortal magic) because they are mere mortal channels of the energy.
Pathfinder severly widened the concept of diety allthough the rules concerning worship wouldn't need to have changed at all.
The word you're looking for is 'naythiest'.
In a world where the gods obviously exist, there is no such thing as an atheist (except, perhaps, for the insane). The term 'naythiest' means an individual that recognizes the existence of (a) god(s), but believe such (a) being(s) is/are undeserving of worship.
I'm a naythiest in real life.
All categories of deism, theism and atheism the way we use them in real life are obsolete in your typical pathfinder/dnd world, where Gods are simply a fact.
So it makes sense to attach different meanings to them in this context.Thus everyone except for people almost completely oblivious to or cut off from the larger world around them recognizes the existence of deities, but:
Atheists don't recognize them as worthy of worship
Theists recognize at least one of them as worthy of worship, and worship one in particular.
Deists find them as worthy of worship and worship them as needed. Pray to the god of weather, when you need rain for your crops, pray to the god of healing, when your loved one fell sick.
Agnostics wouldn't be as sure about which ones deserve to be worshipped and which don't or if any at all do.
There is no need to make up words like "naytheist", when there are words freed up for the purpose anyway.
The word you're looking for is 'naythiest'.
In a world where the gods obviously exist, there is no such thing as an atheist (except, perhaps, for the insane). The term 'naythiest' means an individual that recognizes the existence of (a) god(s), but believe such (a) being(s) is/are undeserving of worship.
I'm a naythiest in real life.
All categories of deism, theism and atheism the way we use them in real life are obsolete in your typical pathfinder/dnd world, where Gods are simply a fact.
So it makes sense to attach different meanings to them in this context.
Thus everyone except for people almost completely oblivious to or cut off from the larger world around them recognizes the existence of deities, but:
Atheists don't recognize them as worthy of worship
Theists recognize at least one of them as worthy of worship, and worship one in particular.
Deists find them as worthy of worship and worship them as needed. Pray to the god of weather, when you need rain for your crops, pray to the god of healing, when your loved one fell sick.
Agnostics wouldn't be as sure about which ones deserve to be worshipped and which don't or if any at all do.There is no need to make up words like "naytheist", when there are words freed up for the purpose anyway.
If you don't want the layman's term, the proper term is misotheism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism
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The fact that gods in pathfinder are indeed simply a fact does not make the atheist impossible, although I agree to highly unlikely. And atheist would still mean not believing in a god/higher power.
A character or NPC believing in higher powers, but who does not worship any simply is no worshipper, although he/she would stil be a theist.
Seeing as there are plenty of domain-granting outsiders with divine or pseudodivine powers that are not gods in PF, atheists could simply categorize the gods as extremely powerful outsiders.
Got to agree with others who have said that it is nothing whatsoever to do with the target recipient of the raise/resurrection, but the cleric and their god. Since there are no mechanical reasons for an atheist to not be raised (any more than there are mechanical reasons for a LG cleric being unable to raise his CE twin brother), it falls to the standard rules: does the recipient want to be raised? At most, I would expect the cleric to pray to his god and say something like "I entreat you to return this soul to life. I promise to try to guide them in your teachings, and ensure they know that it is only by your grace that they have been returned to the living". Certainly nothing more concrete than that.
A way to be returned to life via an arcane spell.
No need to go that far.
Raise Dead and Resurrection both are on the spell list of the Witch.
Which, AFAIK is considered an arcane caster to begin with.
*scnr*
Atheism makes perfect sense for an educated and rational person in Golarian. All these so-called "Gods" are merely epic-level spellcasters with some special abilities. We know that 20th level spellcasters can cast Wish and create demi-planes, which puts them three-quarters of the way to divinity. Obviously epic level classes give them extra abilities, such as extensive planes and the ability to channel the energy matrix of the newly dead to them. In fact, several of these "gods" have admitted to being mortal before touching an artifact.
Not that I'm adding one shouldn't worship these beings- from a cost-benefit analysis being subservient to these spellcasters makes as much sense as a peasant being subservient to their master. But a better use of time might be spent trying to figure out how to join that august assemblage. And in any case, let's hear no more about gods being special.
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A way to be returned to life via an arcane spell.No need to go that far.
Raise Dead and Resurrection both are on the spell list of the Witch.
Which, AFAIK is considered an arcane caster to begin with.*scnr*
Witches are kind of in a gray area due to the Patrons. When a Witch rezzes someone it's really their patron doing the heavy lifting.
Please note however that they actually redefine what an atheist is with that line -- it's not just those that deny the gods... it's those that deny their own afterlives.
Yeah, paizo has a hard time working with those that lack faith when gods are a physical fact. It comes in part from the fact that they didn't want to throw around more accurate terms that no one would recognize (which they also might of not known without looking it up), so they stuck with the more familiar term even though it was wrong. Their definition of atheism is closer to misotheism (hatred of god).
The idea is that yes, there are being 'called' gods, and they made the world. But this philosophy questions whether they are actually divine and worthy of worship. I mean, for a human, it is rather hard to tell a god apart from a CR 15 angel really. I think very few living mortals have a chance to study the gods (even with Resurrection, the process is likely to fast and disorienting to set up proper study), and most of what they do know either comes from what was told from them by the gods or their servants. In this light, it is slightly less insane to be "atheist" when you have to look at the screwed up mess setting is in.
As far as what Pharasma does to them...I suppose the waiting period before they become irrevocable (eaten by Groetus?) is pretty much included with the time limits of your normal resurrections.
Actually according to standard rules neither rangers nor paladins (divine magic) need a specific deity but may worship an ideal instead. And clerics may design a new nonspecific deity instead. They can still worship a specific deity but do not need to.
I am unaware if Golarion has specific rules about worship but it might.
Canon, it does, Clerics & Inquisitors must worship a specific Deity, (Something with Domains, a favored weapon & portfolio; granted, with several of the splatbooks which have come out, that list is a lot bigger than the core 20 anymore, but they still have to worship one specific Deity). Druids can get away with worshiping either a Deity that is listed as having Druid worshipers or Nature itself, likewise Rangers. Paladins/AntiPaladins generally have a specific Deity in the acceptable alignment range (though we have one published Paladin who's declared deity is CG rather than NG, LG or LN) so that could be taken as evidence that Paladins can revere an ideal as much as a Deity.
Actually James Jacobs is on record as stating that if you want to be a deity-less 'cleric-like' Divine Caster on Golarion, Oracle is the way to go as Oracles specifically do not require worship of a Deity, there is even some evidence to indicate that the Iconic Oracle may also be an Atheist.
Seeing as there are plenty of domain-granting outsiders with divine or pseudodivine powers that are not gods in PF, atheists could simply categorize the gods as extremely powerful outsiders.
This is how I see it. An athiest says "These beings exist, but they aren't gods (i.e. aren't worthy of worship). They're just really powerful and I hope they ignore me."
In that case, one has to ask how one defines "god" in Pathfinder.
Yeah, that gets pretty semantic. They are ridiculously powerful outsiders (at least if they're anything like in 3.5). The question is if they are more than ridiculously powerful outsiders.
And that, my friends, is the question that an atheist dares ask and others do not.
