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I personally, as GM, like the limit.That's all the answer you need. Besides, if only 2 out of 5 are complaining then they're outvoted.
Besides, +2 weapons at level 4 are just silly. you shouldn't even be thinking about +2 until level 6.
Agreed.
Complaining could be acceptable on a 25% basis. 3 out of 4 sounds quite good.
Well low magic also means less headbands of intellect, rings of protection, cloaks of resistance and other items spellcasters love to load up on to protect themselves.Pfft. It's not like they need those, and if they want them, they can actually craft them themselves unless you change the campaign to not allow item creation with your own effort and feats.
But really, why do spellcasters need those things? I mean, if it's low magic, then, they don't need big buffs for their DCs since there's no huge resistance mods floating around. Without magic items, a competent spellcaster will steamroll martial creatures anyway.
Clerics are especially attractive in low-magic games, 'cause they don't even need high Wisdom scores to rock socks with their spells. :P
Ah not in my experience. There are all sorts of ways to shut down, hinder or attack spellcasters. A party that sees them as a real threat, is a party that thinks and plans, getting their strategies sorted out for battles against spellcasters.
So the wizards or clerics aren't festooned with magic items, and they aren't immune to falchions out of ghost strike, charging grapples, longspears from behind, poison daggers etc etc etc.
It doesn't create a giant gap in the games I've run, then again, I run 3.5 with some beta, not core with its new spellcasting classes and rules. Taking something like an alchemist, and you might think they would rock, but archers can take those lobbers down at intermediate to long ranges, as one example. :)
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There is nothing that says a character has to sell crafted magic items to the rest of the party at cost, either.
The people I game with generally charge more "for their time" and (out of character) the cost of the feat(s). PC crafted items generally sell for 70% of book cost with these guys.
Something to keep in mind with this small city the group thinks is currently the biggest city in the area, when they sell thier loot they arent going to actually use, the guys they sold them to will then travel to somewhere else with better supply and sell it for a profit, thus increasing what they can have on hand. There was a section of rules about this in the Kingmaker adventure path I believe. It takes a small outpost that lvl 2 characters are pretty much able to buy out, and starts increasing with how much business the party brings in. The local adventuring party sure as hell brings in a big chunk of business to either a general store with contacts to get magic items, or the guy who runs the magic store.
Asta
PSY
I'm having enough issues having a 'store' at all! This allows me to gain a bit of old school DM satisfaction in thwarting the players every desire, rather than being Apu of the Magic-Item Kwik-E-Mart...
I think it would be very easy for players to misconstrue this as antagonistic.
Also I know that, as a player, I would be highly dissatisfied with seeing a die rolled to determine whether or not a certain item was around. Just as much as if the DM were rolling in front of me to determine all the encounters, paths in the dungeon, etc.
Personally, I'd be happier with this somehow already done out. A given small town only has so many items 'on spec' that the people therein are willing to sell. I could go look for someone that could make such items 'on demand', but again would rather not see the DM taking out a die when I ask them.
The point of not making all items instantly available is to increase verisimilitude and making it so blatantly random detracts from that. The chance that a town has a specifically enchanted strange armor/weapon should not be equal to the chance the town having a more 'generally useful' magic item. Now such could happen, but I can hear the haggling now "Who else is ever going to spend for such a highly enchanted exotic weapon? No one else around can even swing the thing properly!"
I think it's perfectly fine to make it so that there isn't a quickie magic mart in town, but honestly really run with it. Have them talk to people in the town.. find out who might have item X, etc...
If you want a plot hook how's this: The PCs are asking around town for a given rare item. They finally find out that NPC Bob has one. But hearing a group of strangers brashly asking about such gets a group of local/semi-local thieves to 'obtain it'. Of course the PCs get blamed...
-James
Another DM I know considers it quite logical and to be expected for spellcasters to go into crafting, so as to make magic items and profit. In his world, it is something really commonly done. I died a little inside, at the thought of a world of exciting fantasy, spell-duels, monster blasting, questing seekers of knowledge, clerics unlocking mysteries, warlocks and sorcerers steadily attuning themselves to greater powers and pacts, all fading away to this vision of most across all spellcasting classes putting a lot of their time and effort into crafting and haggling over what they would get back. It made me sad. The crafting-merchant chronicles.
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I think issue 19 of Kobold Quarterly has a great article about the "magic item shop" with some samples and a few charts.
For me, I am not opposed at all to the idea of shopping for magic items; it seems in a setting in which magic is, at the very least, somewhat prevalent there will inevitably merchants who will tap into that market. It is human (or orc or dwarf ... etc) nature.
I just have a problem, as a GM, with it coming off as a big wholesale warehouse wherein anything your heart can desire might be found.
One of the best examples of shopping for a magic item that I can recall (from years back) in a fantasy story was in Conan: The Road of Kings by Karl Edward Wagner (I know it's not an original REH but it is still a great read) wherein Conan comes across a blade at one of the merchant stalls. It has no hilt and appears to have been unused for some time. The merchant assures Conan that the blade was forged from metal smelted from a rock that had fallen from the skies. After testing the blade's balance and strength he purchases and then commissions a hilt and grip to be affixed. In a few days he is the proud owner of a new fine weapon that he quickly gets to test in combat.
That is the kind of thing I like to try and emulate with player acquisition of magic items. I realize to do this for each and every item would be tedious at best so I use my judgement. My players enjoy it and seem to get a genuine feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment when they have acquired such an item and are more invested in it as such.
This combined with the aforementioned wishlist and drops to be found in treasure hoards really helps with making the reward system more meaningful, IMHO.
Remind your players that this is a role playing game. Ask them "What would your characters do in this town if the item you're looking for isn't available?" If they're at a loss for what to do (perhaps they're fixating on the GP limit of the town), remind them of options:
1) Go shopping in a bigger town
1a) Send an agent to go shopping in bigger town for you
2) Commission the item
3) Make it themselves
4) Invest some time researching and go on resulting quest to find one
Just because the GP limit (or the chance of availability if rolling above 75%) says the item isn't in town doesn't mean there's no way to get it to the town. It just means they can't buy it off the rack right now.
Personally I hate the 3.x dependence on magic items. It is there though, the characters do need items that help them do what they do and add flexibility to be able to deal with additional situations. I have since replaced the magic item system in my game, but prior to that I stopped using the magic item shop and instead, used a wishlist stystem and tailored rewards from powerful patrons. I also allowed gather information (now diplomacy) checks to locate sources for specific items, and buyers for items that have been replaced in a character's inventory.
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I felt that the dependence on magic items extends further back than 3.X. Back in the 2e days of Living City, I remember how the importance of magic items was even physically reminded by having a single sheet of paper describe the character... and a binder full of certs representing all the magic items.
In any case, I find balance much easier to maintain without access to the Magic Mart. It's also much easier to design fun encounters and worthwile rewards when the GM and players are in regular communication about what they're looking for in the campaign going forward.
Personally I hate the 3.x dependence on magic items. It is there though, the characters do need items that help them do what they do and add flexibility to be able to deal with additional situations. I have since replaced the magic item system in my game, but prior to that I stopped using the magic item shop and instead, used a wishlist stystem and tailored rewards from powerful patrons. I also allowed gather information (now diplomacy) checks to locate sources for specific items, and buyers for items that have been replaced in a character's inventory.
You mean previous editions where warriors literally cannot hurt something without +X weapons? Oh look, it's a baby vampire. Oops, you don't have a +2 or better weapon, so you cannot damage it at all. Prepare to die. If anything 3.x has eased off of the need for magic items to be effective in a variety of venues.
As I noted, my players do stock up on magic items, but they only really feel like they need a handful of items, and most of those are defensive and at higher levels. Most of their magic items follow a Jarlaxel type approach, where they have something for every occasion tucked away in their coat pocket. :P
Don't forget that the Magic Shop isn't the only source for magic items. The players can always comission an item to be made. They will have to front a percentage of the item and wait for the item to be made, but it should be an option for people to have a master crafter comission an item specifically for them. Most decent magic shops will have connections with crafters, and can probably arrange to have specific items crafted. The 75% roll just represents that they have on hand at that moment.
Personally I hate the 3.x dependence on magic items. It is there though, the characters do need items that help them do what they do and add flexibility to be able to deal with additional situations. I have since replaced the magic item system in my game, but prior to that I stopped using the magic item shop and instead, used a wishlist stystem and tailored rewards from powerful patrons. I also allowed gather information (now diplomacy) checks to locate sources for specific items, and buyers for items that have been replaced in a character's inventory.You mean previous editions where warriors literally cannot hurt something without +X weapons? Oh look, it's a baby vampire. Oops, you don't have a +2 or better weapon, so you cannot damage it at all. Prepare to die. If anything 3.x has eased off of the need for magic items to be effective in a variety of venues.
As I noted, my players do stock up on magic items, but they only really feel like they need a handful of items, and most of those are defensive and at higher levels. Most of their magic items follow a Jarlaxel type approach, where they have something for every occasion tucked away in their coat pocket. :P
I am not speaking about in comparison to previous editions. I am simply talking about the current state of affairs. I dont like how much power (read: versatility is a form of power) is tied up in magic items and the expected wealth. By 10th level 62,000 gp in magic items is alot of oomph. And it is an accounting nightmare for a gm to keep track of that sort of stuff. Mind you, my group optimizes, as I do as gm (and the other gms in my group) so the numbers matter, if you are behind the power curve you tend to fail alot at whatever you are trying to do in my group, and that will always detract from the fun.
"Hey, I have an idea! Let's play a game about living in a fantasy world with spells and monsters and magic swords and heroic er.. heroes!"
"OK, let's go! You guys find yourself in a small town with a lot of gold"
"Cool, I go to the magic shop to buy some stuff!"
"Magic shop? We don't have no stinkin' magic shop!"
"Er... what?"
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I've read the rules. I still hate the idea of Magic-Mart. No thanks.
Hopefully if they do an updated edition to pathfinder, they will make the rules work better balance wise with the presumption of NOT buying magical items and keep the magic shops mechanics as optional stuff. But the system itself should not be balanced on the assumption that PCs are going to go fill out their 'slots' with gear specialized for their class or motif. Its silly and very video gamey.
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Personally I hate the 3.x dependence on magic items. It is there though, the characters do need items that help them do what they do and add flexibility to be able to deal with additional situations. I have since replaced the magic item system in my game, but prior to that I stopped using the magic item shop and instead, used a wishlist stystem and tailored rewards from powerful patrons. I also allowed gather information (now diplomacy) checks to locate sources for specific items, and buyers for items that have been replaced in a character's inventory.You mean previous editions where warriors literally cannot hurt something without +X weapons? Oh look, it's a baby vampire. Oops, you don't have a +2 or better weapon, so you cannot damage it at all. Prepare to die. If anything 3.x has eased off of the need for magic items to be effective in a variety of venues.
As I noted, my players do stock up on magic items, but they only really feel like they need a handful of items, and most of those are defensive and at higher levels. Most of their magic items follow a Jarlaxel type approach, where they have something for every occasion tucked away in their coat pocket. :P
Back in the day, the DM had control of what was in his game. If he put in a vampire with no way of the party to deal with it, then the party is probably meant to run or avoid it. But usually its the DM's job to properly place encounters according to his campaign and party.
Blaming it on a system mechanic is well...a lazy DM. Its your game. If its a problem, then don't put it in your game.
Another reason why I think CL for enounters is just another excuse for a DM to be lazy.
Mmm, ideas from video games, the push to further optimisation and making sure the load-out is exactly perfect, it really has crept into dnd. Another one is for CR. Video game players who are used to easy wins, and then being really challenged by dnd monsters, and being offended by the challenge. I am hurt after that combat, feel my rage.
Yes, that opponent couldn't just be killed with a bit of button mashing.
Mmm, ideas from video games, the push to further optimisation and making sure the load-out is exactly perfect, it really has crept into dnd. Another one is for CL. Video game players who are used to easy wins, and then being really challenged by dnd monsters, and being offended by the challenge. I am hurt after that combat, feel my rage.
Yes, that opponent couldn't just be killed with a bit of button mashing.
LOL, my characters have been browsing magic shops since the late 70s. In fact some of the most ridiculous magic items I've ever purchased were in those games, because back then GMs made lots of stuff up out of thin air. I had one character who found a sword that would gain a d10 damage every round that you hit with it, until you missed.
I'm pretty sure that predated computer video games. Heck, I'm pretty sure it predated video CONSOLES.
Yeah, I remember having powerful items in second ed, but filling all slots? Shopping to fill all slots? I think it is a little later that comes out and becomes common.
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I personally try to limit magic item shopping in my games as much as possible. If the party is out in the middle of nowhere, then its not an issue since asking the adjacent bit of shrubbery for a +1 sword isn't going to work out. Even in a large city like korvosa, I put it down to cost of the item, what it does and how much in demand it would be. It comes down to certain factors and a luck roll. One player pouted and was unhappy about being unable to buy his ring of sustenance with ease. Alot of the gaming groups I came across from years back had a very similar approach. It was almost 2nd ed with the underlying message being "get out there and do cool stuff if you want those cool nifty mystical trinkets." It worked out though, since the players were pretty seasoned and had moved beyond the magic item obsession. They were still loaded with magical loot. The only difference being that they earned their items the old-fashioned heroic way. You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.
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I personally try to limit magic item shopping in my games as much as possible. If the party is out in the middle of nowhere, then its not an issue since asking the adjacent bit of shrubbery for a +1 sword isn't going to work out. Even in a large city like korvosa, I put it down to cost of the item, what it does and how much in demand it would be. It comes down to certain factors and a luck roll. One player pouted and was unhappy about being unable to buy his ring of sustenance with ease. Alot of the gaming groups I came across from years back had a very similar approach. It was almost 2nd ed with the underlying message being "get out there and do cool stuff if you want those cool nifty mystical trinkets." It worked out though, since the players were pretty seasoned and had moved beyond the magic item obsession. They were still loaded with magical loot. The only difference being that they earned their items the old-fashioned heroic way. You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.
Exactly. It takes the story out of the story. There should be history behind something magical like that. Otherwise your just substituting the word mundane with magical. It loses its meaning and endearment.
They're also big on using potions and such. Man, most of my players are wielding +1 effective weapons half the time before 2nd level, because of oils of magic weapon being a mere 50 gp. Go to your local apothecary and stock up on those, enlarge person, and similarly useful potions. Lead blade and gravity bow are also popular oils they will pick up. Believe me, the big bad popping protection from arrows is going to be horribly disappointed when the martial pops an enlarge person, and all three of his allies use their action to apply oils to his bow. Ok, in one turn, you have the warrior who is enlarged, with a +1 gravity bow and lead bladed glaive. Yikes! Get the heck out of there BBEG, they are going to...
FYI, this situation is rife with problems. Lead Blades and Gravity Bow are personal spells, and hence cannot be made into potions. Enlarge Person specifically does not increase the damage dice of range weapons.
Ok, first, I'll admit I skipped 90% of this topic just to make a simple comment. Sorry if something like it has already been said.
Personally, my preference in a situation about magic item availability in a setting like this is to be a bit lenient but only within some bounds. I would not be above letting players make use of different available resources from the city to try and "order" an item or use the black market to try locating something (not exactly, but you get the idea). It all depends on the campaign setting and how they go about trying to acquire the items. Mind you, In all cases it takes a significant amount of time in game to have such requests fulfilled.
Here's one, ask your players how their characters know about those items....
In Game knowledge?
Knowledge checks ftw!
If they want to take teh craft feats, make them have to roll to see if they know about those, or maybe they'll have to research it. (part of the research cost could be re-couped as being part of the cost to create items.)
Once they know about a let's say, a "soulstealer weapon" they might need an exotic item to complete it. Perhaps they need the essence of a wraith to complete it.
This is all old school of course, like when you needed to carry bat guano around to cast fireball...I personally LOVED that style of game play. I made spell books for my characters complete with spells I had failed to learn.
Another reason why I think CL for enounters is just another excuse for a DM to be lazy.
Well, I use CL for a guideline, not because I'm lazy (I like to think) but because I'm inexperienced. I'm really not sure what to look for when I'm judging what challenge a creature makes and CL is a good starting point.
And I'm not really gaining experience either, because my party are increasing in level about as fast as I can keep up with looking at new creatures and spells etc. that become appropriate at each level.
They're also big on using potions and such. Man, most of my players are wielding +1 effective weapons half the time before 2nd level, because of oils of magic weapon being a mere 50 gp. Go to your local apothecary and stock up on those, enlarge person, and similarly useful potions. Lead blade and gravity bow are also popular oils they will pick up. Believe me, the big bad popping protection from arrows is going to be horribly disappointed when the martial pops an enlarge person, and all three of his allies use their action to apply oils to his bow. Ok, in one turn, you have the warrior who is enlarged, with a +1 gravity bow and lead bladed glaive. Yikes! Get the heck out of there BBEG, they are going to...FYI, this situation is rife with problems. Lead Blades and Gravity Bow are personal spells, and hence cannot be made into potions. Enlarge Person specifically does not increase the damage dice of range weapons.
Ah yes, my bad. I had forgotten that Gravity Blade/Lead Blade weren't like magic weapon which targets your weapon. Worse yet, it seems I hadn't noticed the (albeit small) change to enlarge person from its 3.5 counterpart. The 3.5 counterpart notes that projectile weapons deal damage based on the weapon that fired them, whereas thrown weapons return to normal size and deal normal damage. Pathfinder seems to have nerfed the projectile bit.
Oh well. A bit embarrassing, but we can't be right all the time. :(
The rest of said post is pretty spot-on. They do use oils of magic weapon, potions of enlarge person, and other nice buffs and such.
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Back On Topic
One of the biggest problems I see with the whole anti-magic-mart crowd is that supposedly everyone is supposed to be getting their phat lewts off mob drops out adventuring and amassing gold. Gold and treasures primarily being used to procure magical sundries as expected. I don't know about everyone else, but that just sounds kind of reasonable. I mean, why are you amassing the large sums of money if you're not using it to buy or commission more items? I mean, if not, by the time you're 5th level you have enough money to live the next 87 years with a comfortable average lifestyle.
In a world with magic, it's absolutely crazy to suggest that people wouldn't market that stuff. I mean, that's what people DO. We sell bottles of WATER for goodness sakes. If someone will buy it, someone will supply it. Even commoners can afford some magical goods from time to time, such as elixers of love, low-level potions, etc.
Meanwhile, it's very metagamey to assume that you will get better gear as part of an adventure. Especially if no one is out there selling that junk. I mean, where did the leader of those bad guys get his +1 sword? Is everyone who has magical items adventurers?
The game is written so that you can - logically - go on adventures for wealth, fame, and power. The vast majority of your treasures will typically be pretty mundane, in the form of coins (copper, silver, gold, or platinum), gems (of various values), art objects (everything from tapestries to pretty baubles), mundane equipment ("Toss the 16 suits of chain mail on the wagon with the rest."), and the occasional magical treasure ("Oh, he was wearing a ring of the ram? Anyone want it, or should we sell it, or draw straws?"). You're expected to then be able to take your wealth, travel to a large city, and convert that wealth into highly prized treasures to go back out and engage in greater acts of adventure.
Every time I hear complaints about magic marts, I can't help but to be reminded of the chicken and the egg. If there are no eggs, where the heck are all these chickens coming from!?
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I don't like magic shops in general, so I tend to just play it taht there isn't one.
When the players decide they want an X, it becomes a quest to go find it... just like trying to find the last Buzz Lightyear on Christmas eve.
Phat lewtz come off mob drops.
I'm happy with that.
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The best way to deal with Magic Item purchases is to treat them as what they are - LUXURIES. The vast majority of ordinary people in the world cannot afford them after all....
Essentially therefore, a Magic Item 'retail outlet' would be functionally similar to a Ferrari Dealer or a Millionaires Consierge Service.
That is to say - whilst they may have a few 'models' on display, they would only set up shop in a Metropolis, take orders for a purchasers requirements (by reputation and/or money-up-front) and THEN either manufacture, source the item from a current owner or pay for a retained adventuring team to go and get it from a known-off location....
A 'Second Hand' or 'Adventurers Guild' Magic Item market would sit below this - for consumables and items of the ~4000gp level and below. Many of these would represent low-mid level adventurer party sales of unwanted loot, demographically feasible market-led production, or perhaps an auction market drawing on noble house, temple or wizards guild sales or clearances.
The other way for the adventurers to 'get what they want' is for them to get off their lazy asses and research where such things may be found as treasure; do favours for the right power-players or organisations; or indeed, make them themselves.
There is a VERY bad body of opinion - grown up in rpgs in the last 15 years that thinks it is the role of the GM to simply furnish everything to those who ask.
This is game-ruining crap, and should be discouraged in my opinion. Making players work for their kit rather than simply putting their hands out to the local generic vendor when they have the cash is FAR better for a campaign and for roleplay within it.
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Yay Caliburn :)
Not only are they luxuries, but they are also somewhat akin to buying high end weaponry... kind of attracts the wrong kind of attention when you set up a dealership. Local medieval ATF will be camping out in your lobby.
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Yay Caliburn :)
Not only are they luxuries, but they are also somewhat akin to buying high end weaponry... kind of attracts the wrong kind of attention when you set up a dealership. Local medieval ATF will be camping out in your lobby.
I am particularly keen on the attention of rogues, jealous nobles, pissed off churches, worried rules etc. etc. trying to reduce their stress levels by either forceably buying, stealing or killing to get powerful items from PC's.
Not only that - I have local authorities put reasonable restrictions on such things - warranting taxes, registration, bans (no fireball wands in 'Cedarwood City' limits....) and other perfectly sensible controls - like nobles not allowing any scrying items on their estates, or embassies confiscating Charm or +Cha based items.
The default is to allow the PC's free-reign with, in some cases, what amounts to WMD's in important and/or vulnerable places.
IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN!!!!
Yay Caliburn :)
Not only are they luxuries, but they are also somewhat akin to buying high end weaponry... kind of attracts the wrong kind of attention when you set up a dealership. Local medieval ATF will be camping out in your lobby.
No, because the magic item shop would put a percentage of the really good stuff in the hands of the local powers that be. Never underestimate the avarice of the ruling class.
Just a couple points:
1. Buying the better items could be an in-game reason for your heroes to visit that larger city you mentioned; all sorts of plot hooks can follow a quest for better gear.
2. Re: the idea of upgrading an item, I've used a similar mechanism in my Kingmaker game, whereby a smith has a magical forge that allows him to transfer magic from one item to another. It's worked pretty well at turning the PC's legacy item into something she wants to continue using.
I'd stick to your guns, but reassure your players there are plenty of ways to get specific items; they just have to go to more effort than walking into the local Wal-mart.
The purpose of availability rules and cash limitations is to keep players from having guaranteed availability to magic-bullet solutions during adventures.
You're doing it right if they consider: Craft feats as an advantage in specificity, developing relationships with merchants to avoid delays, and using found items if possible. If you can do these things without frustrating the players, you're on target.
What you need is a short list of rationales for an unavailable item, a list of magic purveyors and proprietors to roleplay accessibility, and some improvisation skills.
Encourage players to commission items ahead of time to circumvent the 75% chance. If they insist on cold-calling magical craftsmen and merchants for very specific items, roll the 75% and feel free to say things like "We just sold our last one, would you like me to reserve our next creation for you and you can pick it up in a fortnight?" or "We don't get much call for that one around here, would you like me to send to my colleague in <another city>?"
Since I always GM in my own campaign world, I just worked magic items into the overall global economy. Some nations have more magic, some have less. The most remote, primitive areas have very, very few magic items. The major cities in the most advanced countries have magic shops all over the place. There are spellcasters who sell their services in crafting magic items.
What you can get depends entirely on where you are. There are even some cities which have tried to outlaw magic, in which case magic items are actually illegal.
But overall, most basic magic items (weapons, armor, rings, ammo) are freely available if you have the cash. Higher level magic items are my call if they are available or not. Generally speaking if you are looking for a +1 flaming returning dagger, you're gonna have to hire a wizard to make one for you.
another option is the leadership feat...
like any solution, its not without drawbacks but if any one player in the group has an extra feat they could take leadership and try to recruit a crafting cohort. depending on the PC this could be a less experienced wizard or sorcerer looking for a mentor, a cleric assigned by their church, a slightly-off alchemist looking for opportunities to 'field test' magical creations, or even a bard looking for fresh source material for new songs/tales. any of these could add to the party's effectiveness, be regularly working on crafting/upgrading items for the party (one at a time, so it shouldn't be at all unbalancing), and can be used by the GM to introduce plot points or adventure hooks from time to time.
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Not the norm but it works very well for us:
Some shops/vendors/sages exist that sell magic items but mainly potions etc.
Simplified version of the rule is "You cannot 'buy' any item with a value over 8,000 GP or which requires a level 4 spell or higher to craft"
There are rare exceptions but our loot IS found by going out and being surprised by what we find.
Earlier in the thread was a post that basically said something like "Hey we found this useless Ring of the Ram, anyone need it or do we sell it and buy something cool?" That statement blew my mind. To each their own but to be playing a game where imagination flows and the story of heroics is being experienced to have any situation where you find a rare relic of the past infused with magic and be "Meh, Price check!" is appalling.
GP by level is pretty much blatantly ignored also. We let the story go and let us feel as if we are rich without some chart saying what we should be worried about.
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You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.
My first 3rd edition character was an elf sorcerer, who (after we completed the Sunless Citadel) ended up with Sir Bradford's magical longsword because no one else in the party wanted it. It was cool to have a magic item with a story behind it, and I still look back on it with fondness.
However, what is not cool is to then fall behind the power curve because you have a load of (comparatively) useless items. The longsword was worth about the same as a cloak of charisma +2, but it was a darn sight less useful to my character than the boring old cloak would have been.
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I tend to hate the magic shop but there are ways of hadling this without it seeming like every town has a magic peddling merchant with a full stock. Yes most campaign worlds have magic but they also have paranoid owners trying to keep that magic safe. Not everyone who sells magic wants everyone esle to know he has a valuable stash. It is on the down low. They take only referals or people they trust to the good stuff. Otherwise people who are on the prowl might use other magic available to kill, swindle or steal to get the limited stock the merchant has. Therefore you might never find a "magic shop" but through gather information, membership in a guild, underworld connection, church connection, meritorious behavior and the like PC's might find there way to the general store whose assistant manager keeps offsite a small stash of items. Perhaps the hedge wizard who makes potions also has a few items. Maybe the church has items that it loans out to noble causes expecting generous donations, a tithe of profits gained through the use of thier items and the items return once the great need for them is passed. All of this build RP into the system as well. A use for those much overlooked social skills. I find this a far more fun way to make items available rather that "Crazy Mordecanen's Emporium of the Arcane."
You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.My first 3rd edition character was an elf sorcerer, who (after we completed the Sunless Citadel) ended up with Sir Bradford's magical longsword because no one else in the party wanted it. It was cool to have a magic item with a story behind it, and I still look back on it with fondness.
However, what is not cool is to then fall behind the power curve because you have a load of (comparatively) useless items. The longsword was worth about the same as a cloak of charisma +2, but it was a darn sight less useful to my character than the boring old cloak would have been.
This is a major design issue with virtually all RPG systems. The magic item economy is laughable when you consider all the +1 longswords dumped on the market because someone found a +2 longsword and his treasured +1 longsword is now nothing but dead weight.
I have a campaign I am running now where I am directly attempting to address this with magic items that are dynamic instead of static. A player's +1 longsword can become a +2 longsword if certain things happen. Or it can develop other powers. The whole point is to stop the constant replacement of weapons, armor and slot items just to keep up with the expected power increase provided by wealth. The basic approach I am taking is to try to have the magical power of key items tied to the character's ability themselves so that it provides an appropriate power boost for their level. But to trigger those transitions in power requires some sort of sacrifice (not always monetary).
That way the PC is not always seeking to replace their items, and the market is not littered with "useless" +3 warhammers...
I tend to hate the magic shop but there are ways of hadling this without it seeming like every town has a magic peddling merchant with a full stock. Yes most campaign worlds have magic but they also have paranoid owners trying to keep that magic safe. Not everyone who sells magic wants everyone esle to know he has a valuable stash. It is on the down low. They take only referals or people they trust to the good stuff. Otherwise people who are on the prowl might use other magic available to kill, swindle or steal to get the limited stock the merchant has. Therefore you might never find a "magic shop" but through gather information, membership in a guild, underworld connection, church connection, meritorious behavior and the like PC's might find there way to the general store whose assistant manager keeps offsite a small stash of items. Perhaps the hedge wizard who makes potions also has a few items. Maybe the church has items that it loans out to noble causes expecting generous donations, a tithe of profits gained through the use of thier items and the items return once the great need for them is passed. All of this build RP into the system as well. A use for those much overlooked social skills. I find this a far more fun way to make items available rather that "Crazy Mordecanen's Emporium of the Arcane."
I like this approach as well. Benefactors might also provide items as needed on loan to complete a task.
You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.My first 3rd edition character was an elf sorcerer, who (after we completed the Sunless Citadel) ended up with Sir Bradford's magical longsword because no one else in the party wanted it. It was cool to have a magic item with a story behind it, and I still look back on it with fondness.
However, what is not cool is to then fall behind the power curve because you have a load of (comparatively) useless items. The longsword was worth about the same as a cloak of charisma +2, but it was a darn sight less useful to my character than the boring old cloak would have been.
If you have a load of useless items, your GM is doing it wrong. Again, this is not a video game. A GM who doesn't actively steer resources into the hands of the players is LAZY.
I personally have no issue with the magic item shop. I think the original poster is doing things just fine for right now.
I can see how this may be problem later on in his game though. As players progress they should get access to better items. I have played in many games where the DM would not want to hand out powerful magic items in 3.x systems. When a 15th level party is fighting with only +2 magic items it begins to take a toll on the players. You begin to notice that you are missing more frequently and that fights take longer to complete. Total party wipes become more common and whole campaigns die because the DM didn't take into account that our characters couldn't defeat the monsters he had us encounter.
I know why our DM did this. He didn't like the idea of a "high fantasy" game. He thought that a gritty more realistic setting was better. Problem was that his setting wasn't any more realistic than any other fantasy setting. Worse his ideas didn't mesh with the rules properly and he was unwilling to adapt to the system changes. I had many a discussion with him about this. In the end he only had one campaign that lasted to epic levels without a total party kill. This only happened because I made the decision to play a item crafting mage with a feat that allowed exp transfer for item creation. We save all of our gold for many game sessions until we were around 11th level or so and then I began the great crafting session. After several in game months our characters were armed to the teeth with everything we needed. We played the campaign through to completion but it left the DM feeling upset that we had done this.
There is a lesson to be learned there. D&D, indeed any roleplaying game, is a group activity. The desires of the DM must compromise with the desires of the players. To do anything else is to risk having one side get upset. This can effect friendships for years to come. Both sides put alot of time and effort into the game. To ignore one sides wants is highly unfair and it can easily lead to resentment.
Now that I have shared that here are some ideas that may be of help.
1) as someone else said early have the players be able to request a magic item from a merchant who can send for it from a larger city.
2) Allow the players to find weak versions of items that they want that level up at certain points. A good way to balance this is to use the wizards greater magic weapon spell as a guide. When the spell improves its bonus then the weapon should upgrade as well. I also use that spell as a guide to determine if a player is being reasonable when saying they need a certain plus for their character.
3) instead of giving out +1 or +2 magic items give the players an inherent magic bonus to attacks and damage as per the greater magic weapon spell. Magic weapons instead can just have special properties like flaming, ghost touch, or vorpal for example. Do the same with armor. Hand out wonderous items as needed. This should keep the game relatively balanced.
4) bite the bullet and do a full implementation of magic shops in the game. There is a good article somewhere about crafting skills and money gained by commoners that really made me realize that it wasn't just players who were using these shops. Commoners can easily make enough to pay for a few spells or a potion or two every year. If they save for a couple of years they can afford to purchase items that they can use in their profession or trade. This does make magic a bit more common and way less special but it doesn't make it any less magical.
Anyways I hope this helps in some ways,
Rzach
edit for small corrections
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If you have a load of useless items, your GM is doing it wrong. Again, this is not a video game. A GM who doesn't actively steer resources into the hands of the players is LAZY.
I'm not a fan of item-shopping and always prefer to find something cool than to buy just what I think I want. That said, however, it strains credulity, if the PCs are fighting orcs or giants, that they keep finding Small-sized magic weapons and armor for the halflings and gnomes in the party.
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"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity. I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"