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If you have a load of useless items, your GM is doing it wrong. Again, this is not a video game. A GM who doesn't actively steer resources into the hands of the players is LAZY.You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.My first 3rd edition character was an elf sorcerer, who (after we completed the Sunless Citadel) ended up with Sir Bradford's magical longsword because no one else in the party wanted it. It was cool to have a magic item with a story behind it, and I still look back on it with fondness.
However, what is not cool is to then fall behind the power curve because you have a load of (comparatively) useless items. The longsword was worth about the same as a cloak of charisma +2, but it was a darn sight less useful to my character than the boring old cloak would have been.
Or the GM just might not prefer to have a more organic world where the equipment and treasure that the players find aren't perfectly suited to their own specializations. We have a guy in our group who is specialized in wielding a Scythe. That didn't stop him from finding a +1 frost greataxe, because that's just what he found.
The game assumes that you will keep what you want, sell the rest, and convert gold into resources by either A) buying, or B) crafting. I see no problem with this. It amazes me that people seem to think that it's somehow inherently gamist to have a shop in a magical world where people preform and trade magic that sells magical items that people have created, and yet tailoring the treasure that your party finds to suit them is somehow less gamey and more of a GM just doing his job.
What? O.o
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"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity. I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"
Uhmm... No...
You do not have to be on a powertrip with no imagination to want a low magic campaign, a campaign starting in a poor economy/devestated area, unreasonable players, etc...
I had a player walk out of a game because the only shop in the disease riddled fishing village did not have a +1 double scimitar with one end mithral and the other end adamantine.
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As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
Someone complained that when they arrived new in town X and asked the local inn keeper for the location ubiquitous Magic-Item Shop. The inn keep did so, and the player walked up on day one in town and said I'll buy Item-Y. Item-Y was not within the town budget. The store keeper says (after the GM randomly rolls the other non-budget items in the town), "No kind Sir we don't stock that level of quality item". Grumble went the player.
"What about Item-Z?" said the player - in budget of the town. "Let me look." says the store keeper. GM tells the player to choose a number between 1 and 4 - then roll a d4, if you get that number it IS NOT in stock. The player rolls the dice and... Stupid system grumbles the player.
The store keeper then says "Sorry not in stock, but I can may be get you one." "When?" says the interested player. I look as GM at the surrounding towns, roll some d4's and decide the closest available item of that type and the travel time. The store keeper replies "about 2 and half weeks."
"Screw you" the player replies.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.
I am unreasonable?
S.
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I do not think you were unreasonable.
Personally, I try to plan most of what a town is going to have ahead of time if I think they will be shopping there. But that is not always possible. Especially when the players 'go off the rails' of the story I was expecting.
As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
Someone complained that when they arrived new in town X and asked the local inn keeper for the location ubiquitous Magic-Item Shop. The inn keep did so, and the player walked up on day one in town and said I'll buy Item-Y. Item-Y was not within the town budget. The store keeper says (after the GM randomly rolls the other non-budget items in the town), "No kind Sir we don't stock that level of quality item". Grumble went the player.
"What about Item-Z?" said the player - in budget of the town. "Let me look." says the store keeper. GM tells the player to choose a number between 1 and 4 - then roll a d4, if you get that number it IS NOT in stock. The player rolls the dice and... Stupid system grumbles the player.
The store keeper then says "Sorry not in stock, but I can may be get you one." "When?" says the interested player. I look as GM at the surrounding towns, roll some d4's and decide the closest available item of that type and the travel time. The store keeper replies "about 2 and half weeks."
"Screw you" the player replies.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.
I am unreasonable?
S.
That is not unreasonable. You did offer a way for the character to get the item they were interested in. You might want to talk to the player and explain that not everything can be handed to them on a moments notice. Some things take time to get.
As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
... stuff about trying and failing to buy magic items..
I am unreasonable?
S.
You were reasonable according to certain values of reasonable.
It would help a lot to know what items X, Y and Z actually were.
I would not be happy if my GM made me roll a die to see if a +1 longsword were available in a reasonably sized town with a shop that actually sold magic stuff. That's like the twinkie of magic items. If it was a +1 gnome hooked hammer, that's a different thing.
This is one reason I actually prefer the 4e ability to move enchantments from one item to another.
Just my own observation here, as a long-time GM and long-time player. If my GM were to do what you are doing and explain it by saying "it has to be right, it's exactly by RAW" I would feel that you were falling back on the literal hard-core implementation of an arbitrary rule because you didn't want to go to the effort of making the decisions yourself.
Is that "reasonable?" I dunno, mostly that would depend, to me, on how much effort you put into your campaign world. If the campaign was a quick and dirty one-off that was thrown together overnight, no problem. But if it was a long-term campaign with rich history and lots of deep immersion, I'd feel pretty disappointed that you were falling back on arbitrary dice rolls for something so important to the game.
Just me.
As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
Someone complained that when they arrived new in town X and asked the local inn keeper for the location ubiquitous Magic-Item Shop. The inn keep did so, and the player walked up on day one in town and said I'll buy Item-Y. Item-Y was not within the town budget. The store keeper says (after the GM randomly rolls the other non-budget items in the town), "No kind Sir we don't stock that level of quality item". Grumble went the player.
"What about Item-Z?" said the player - in budget of the town. "Let me look." says the store keeper. GM tells the player to choose a number between 1 and 4 - then roll a d4, if you get that number it IS NOT in stock. The player rolls the dice and... Stupid system grumbles the player.
The store keeper then says "Sorry not in stock, but I can may be get you one." "When?" says the interested player. I look as GM at the surrounding towns, roll some d4's and decide the closest available item of that type and the travel time. The store keeper replies "about 2 and half weeks."
"Screw you" the player replies.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.
I am unreasonable?
S.
I think you are being reasonable, but I also know how frustrating it can be as a player. I remember playing a greatsword fighter and finding +3 axes but no great swords, letting me either use a weaker weapon or not make use of the feats and other choices i've made. It can be a real sticking point.
In the end it depends on alot of things. Time is a big sticking point. How much game time does that 2 and a half weeks really represent? Will the current adventure be over by then? If the players adventure every day the player could be several levels higher by the time the item is ready. Will it still be relevant?
The problem is how much of what the characters can do is tied up in their magical equipement. We talk alot about offense (magic weapons, stat boosters and the like) but defense is actually worse. A character will make SOME progress in their offensive abilities if they use the same masterwork weapon their whole career. But without magic, AC stays just about right where it is after like 4th level. Saves progress very slowly. So a fighter without magic makes a terrible frontline fighter.
You need to give the fighter a way to get his AC up, and to get the kind of weapon he specializes in, and for the wizard to expand their spellbook. It can be in a magic shop, or by placing specific items as rewards or giving them time to have items crafted, seek them out, or craft them themselves, but you have to do SOMETHING as a dm.
Basically my opinion is, if you are going to use what are rational rules for determining the availability of magic items for purchase, you need to build in or plan for other ways for accounting for the fact that the base assumptions of the game in terms of gear are not rational(assumed wealth).
"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity. I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"
Is this sarcastic?
If not, I don't appreciate the way that it extrapolates. There are many, many reasonable ways to regret the overly-available magic item trope.
I mean, I allow magic marts of a kind, and this just seems like fanning the flames. Tone it down, broseph.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.I am unreasonable?
S.
Totally reasonable. And, by the eye rolls, I'd say your other players agree.
As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
Someone complained that when they arrived new in town X and asked the local inn keeper for the location ubiquitous Magic-Item Shop. The inn keep did so, and the player walked up on day one in town and said I'll buy Item-Y. Item-Y was not within the town budget. The store keeper says (after the GM randomly rolls the other non-budget items in the town), "No kind Sir we don't stock that level of quality item". Grumble went the player.
"What about Item-Z?" said the player - in budget of the town. "Let me look." says the store keeper. GM tells the player to choose a number between 1 and 4 - then roll a d4, if you get that number it IS NOT in stock. The player rolls the dice and... Stupid system grumbles the player.
The store keeper then says "Sorry not in stock, but I can may be get you one." "When?" says the interested player. I look as GM at the surrounding towns, roll some d4's and decide the closest available item of that type and the travel time. The store keeper replies "about 2 and half weeks."
"Screw you" the player replies.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.
I am unreasonable?
S.
Not unreasonable at all. Heck, even with modern conveniences, stores run out of stuff. I worked at a grocery store as a stocker for a while. Sometimes we wouldn't get certain products in, or there would be a shortage of something, and the shelf would be empty. Sometimes customers would request certain items we didn't normally carry, so we'd special order them and they would arrive next time we got our shipments, etc.
Honestly, Stefan, I would have greatly appreciated the way you handled that, and I probably would have asked the rest of the players if they would mind if we camped out here for a couple of weeks and mingled with the townsfolk for a while, maybe craft some items, visit some locals, make some friends, or perhaps just see if anyone else was interested in some downtime. I mean, if we're not rushed, this would be a fine opportunity for the wizard to scribe himself some scrolls while I'm waiting for my special order to arrive.
EDIT:
Yes pretty much because if the characters are adventuring they could make 2 maybe 3 levels or more in that amount of time by which point that item is probably useless deadweight.
I don't know of what sort of magic item is useless dead weight in only 2 to 3 levels, and I especially know that there must be some pretty hardcore assumptions going on to assume that in 2 weeks of game time they are going to earn about 2-3 levels.
Maybe if you were tripping over encounters that are a higher level than your party, sure. But even with 4 standard CR encounters per adventure, you need about 10 encounters to level up on the fast XP progression. That's not counting the time spent in exploration, roleplaying, traveling, and so forth.
I know my players tend to level every couple of sessions or so. I usually don't run encounters higher than APL +3, and those are for either large singular encounters (like if they are expected to engage in only one big battle), and most encounters are lower. The GM Toolkit is so full of ways to challenge your players that doing so with CR appropriate or even below APL CR encounters is not difficult at all.
A lot of adventuring can be done over a few levels.
Well sometimes things just aren't available to the high end adventurer. That's just how it is.
Sort of reminds me of The Terminator, when Arnie goes into the gun store and asks for a pile of ridonkulous items... "Only what you see pal".
If you have a load of useless items, your GM is doing it wrong. Again, this is not a video game. A GM who doesn't actively steer resources into the hands of the players is LAZY.You know a party is cool when there is a tale behind every mystical blade or armor which the party has on them.My first 3rd edition character was an elf sorcerer, who (after we completed the Sunless Citadel) ended up with Sir Bradford's magical longsword because no one else in the party wanted it. It was cool to have a magic item with a story behind it, and I still look back on it with fondness.
However, what is not cool is to then fall behind the power curve because you have a load of (comparatively) useless items. The longsword was worth about the same as a cloak of charisma +2, but it was a darn sight less useful to my character than the boring old cloak would have been.
Or the GM just might not prefer to have a more organic world where the equipment and treasure that the players find aren't perfectly suited to their own specializations. We have a guy in our group who is specialized in wielding a Scythe. That didn't stop him from finding a +1 frost greataxe, because that's just what he found.
The game assumes that you will keep what you want, sell the rest, and convert gold into resources by either A) buying, or B) crafting. I see no problem with this. It amazes me that people seem to think that it's somehow inherently gamist to have a shop in a magical world where people preform and trade magic that sells magical items that people have created, and yet tailoring the treasure that your party finds to suit them is somehow less gamey and more of a GM just doing his job.
What? O.o
Ok, to you and the poster above you: The original complaint was a 'LOAD OF USELESS ITEMS'. Did I say to customize EVERY SINGLE magic item according to the players? Um....NO. Don't polarize my response thank you.
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As the OP I would like to remind people that, whatever my personal feeling in Magic-Item Shops, I am applying the rules in PF RAW. I figured I can't be accused of being an unfair GM then.
Someone complained that when they arrived new in town X and asked the local inn keeper for the location ubiquitous Magic-Item Shop. The inn keep did so, and the player walked up on day one in town and said I'll buy Item-Y. Item-Y was not within the town budget. The store keeper says (after the GM randomly rolls the other non-budget items in the town), "No kind Sir we don't stock that level of quality item". Grumble went the player.
"What about Item-Z?" said the player - in budget of the town. "Let me look." says the store keeper. GM tells the player to choose a number between 1 and 4 - then roll a d4, if you get that number it IS NOT in stock. The player rolls the dice and... Stupid system grumbles the player.
The store keeper then says "Sorry not in stock, but I can may be get you one." "When?" says the interested player. I look as GM at the surrounding towns, roll some d4's and decide the closest available item of that type and the travel time. The store keeper replies "about 2 and half weeks."
"Screw you" the player replies.
Close certain with the GM sighing and the other players rolling their eye-balls at the player.
I am unreasonable?
S.
Nope, you have a cry baby player who expects everything to be handed to them. They don't want a GM. They want a table top version of a video game where the GM is doing the job of the program. Good riddance to a player like that. I'd go open the door for them and blow them a kiss as they walk out.
I think for where and how the campaign has started, and with how things sound from the GM's side that what is currently going on is alright. I'm a little curious how the guy got enough funds to buy a +2 weapon at level 4 but as a GM I typically don't worry about how the PCs spend their dosh. After all overloading on one end tends to leave vulnerabilities on other ends.
I try to have *someone* around that could make something for the PCs if they want it made at cost as a regular option. Role playing can either help or hinder the PCs on this accordingly (pissing the guy off doesn't help, where as rescuing his brother who was out of your way and then setting off to save the city does help).
I would say that some level of magical 'store' is needed and that somethings might not even be recognized as 'magical store' items in the default pathfinder game (such as potions of cure light wounds) -- they are simply so common to almost be commodity level stuff. It would be beyond ridiculous to me to claim that there is no magic shop and all the items have to be looted from the dead enemy or special gifts. After all where did all those magic items come from and if they are so rare how do you manage to keep finding even such items to keep 4 party members supplied in items at any point in the game?
With that said I do understand the want to play in specifically low magic low magical equipment games -- and am willing to play in them provided I'm assured the GM can handle the balancing that is needed with such games (I'm even willing to help him make it happen with my knowledge and thoughts on such a game).
I have stopped player looting for the most part... in fact regardless of the GM we have stopped it for the most part at our games. We sat down and had a talk about the ridiculousness of it, how unlimited looting can ruin game balance (especially when combined with item creation) and came to a solid agreement that what is needed wealth wise would be received appropriately over the course of the game. We've even simply allowed that everyone would 're-wealth' every level before.
This actually made the magical items almost invisible at the table. We someone came with something that was honestly special to the table it was easy to realize because it was actually used and stated instead of simply being another magical item.
Not unreasonable at all. Heck, even with modern conveniences, stores run out of stuff. I worked at a grocery store as a stocker for a while. Sometimes we wouldn't get certain products in, or there would be a shortage of something, and the shelf would be empty. Sometimes customers would request certain items we didn't normally carry, so we'd special order them and they would arrive next time we got our shipments, etc.
Honestly, Stefan, I would have greatly appreciated the way you handled that, and I probably would have asked the rest of the players if they would mind if we camped out here for a couple of weeks and...
Sure people run out of things and have to wait for shipments but in the magical world this actually makes more sense for cheap junk than it does for higher value items because at a certain point it becomes worthwhile to just keep a magic scroll on hand to send word to your contact and a teleport spell to get him (he's a high level caster chances are good he has tele) and the goods back to you tack on a 10% finders fee and everyone is making so much money it wouldn't make any sense not to make the effort to get it there within 2 or 3 days.
Also a +1 sword at say level 3 you hit level 5 or 6 and chances are you're looking for a +2 one sure not useless but it does the opposite of what purchasing magic items is supposed to do which is give you the ideal equipment as opposed to just crap you find which isn't perfect but eh it does the job.
You can do that in the real world too. It is called expediting. If you really want something right now, you can get it overnighted to you, but expect to pay more for it.
If I were running a magic shop, I would throw the cost of the communication and teleport spells on top of the cost of the item. Level 9 casters are not exactly common, and their time does not come cheap.
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Mmm, ideas from video games, the push to further optimisation and making sure the load-out is exactly perfect, it really has crept into dnd. Another one is for CR. Video game players who are used to easy wins, and then being really challenged by dnd monsters, and being offended by the challenge. I am hurt after that combat, feel my rage.
Yes, that opponent couldn't just be killed with a bit of button mashing.
If absolutely everything the heroes run into is a fight for their life, then I doubt they will feel very heroic. They need a button-mash styled cake walk every once in a while.
It's a matter of extremes. You want to find a nice balance, not make everything stupefyingly easy or outlandishly difficult.
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Edit: I don't know how fast game time in your game travels relative to real time but in ours it seems to be something like 2-3 days of game time per adventure 14 days = 5-7 adventures of 4 encounters each = 20+ encounters at 10 encounters per level equals 2+ levels
Fair enough. We'll chalk it up to a difference in pacing. :)
Sure people run out of things and have to wait for shipments but in the magical world this actually makes more sense for cheap junk than it does for higher value items because at a certain point it becomes worthwhile to just keep a magic scroll on hand to send word to your contact and a teleport spell to get him (he's a high level caster chances are good he has tele) and the goods back to you tack on a 10% finders fee and everyone is making so much money it wouldn't make any sense not to make the effort to get it there within 2 or 3 days.
Seems reasonable. Still, you have to have one. Long range communication and teleportation is a pretty serious investment just to get an item from another town on the double. It takes 2 days to scribe a scroll of teleport, costs 1,125 gp, and can shoot you off a bit of distance. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to for an item that's less than 8,000 gp.
Also a +1 sword at say level 3 you hit level 5 or 6 and chances are you're looking for a +2 one sure not useless but it does the opposite of what purchasing magic items is supposed to do which is give you the ideal equipment as opposed to just crap you find which isn't perfect but eh it does the job.
Perhaps it's a difference in gameplay style. It's rare that I'm feeling pressed to get a +2 weapon by 5th or 6th level. They're too expensive at a minimum of 8,300 gp. I'd rather by stocking up on multiple +1 weapons (which could later be enhanced to +2 weapons for paying the difference), defensive items, some potions, and stuff that makes you generally more effective at your job. a +5% to hit and +1 damage isn't really worth the extra 6,000 gp worth of other goodies you could have until higher levels.
For example, for about the cost of a +2 weapon (8,300+ gp), I could get a +1 weapon (2,300 gp), a +1 composite (+3) longbow (2,700 gp), a +1 chainmail armor (1,300 gp), and a +1 ring of protection (2,000 gp), totaling 8,300 gp. So instead of 5% more hit chance and +1 damage, I instead got a larger option set, better armor, and a deflection bonus to AC. I'd supplement this further with cloaks of resistance, potions, boots of longstrider, some +1 or +2 ability score items, and so forth.
EDIT: As an added bonus, by diversifying my loadout, not only do I get more bang for my buck, but the chances of finding all of that stuff without being in larger cities drastically increases.
All very true but as the OP said somewhere earlier his players seem mostly concerned about what this will mean late game which I would normally consider to be at the point where we're talking 10k up items and that's the point where 10% would roughly equal the cost of a teleport. I agree the cost should be added to the item but assuming the crafter is a wizard it wouldn't be too unusual for him to have the spell so no need for scrolls.
You make a good point. ^-^
Continuing on the topic of item availability...
Even late-game it's not much of a deal-breaker. I've played enough high level games to know that there's stuff that means a lot more than another +1, and that's generally buffs, wards, and tactical enhancements. When playing in a game I'm not familiar with, I generally assume I will be able to acquire up to +2 weapons, +3 armors, +4 stat bonuses, +4 resistance mods, and +5 inherent bonuses (if we have a wizard or sorcerer of at least 11th level).
Anything else typically needs to be crafted, quested, or commissioned. I'm pretty fine with that, in general. It seems like most campaigns expect higher level heroes to take greater spurts of down time, or possibly to travel to other planes to find cities that support larger trade as appropriate for the campaign (for example, many outsiders can craft magic items and have significantly high caster levels, and most common angels and devils and such wield magical weapons like mortals wield mundane ones).
I would actually be a little surprised if by the time they had reached levels where the 16,000 gp item limits would be a real concern, that they hadn't gained alternative methods of gaining said items (such as gaining the favor of an artisan of noticeable skill), and so forth. Likewise, by the time that item creation time becomes a bit of a problem (such as when you want to craft a magic item that takes in excess of six months), you can probably pop over to the astral plane, purgatory, or some other place with stunted or timeless properties, and like DBZ's hyperbolic time chamber, emerge the a day later from the great beyond with your weapon that took a year to forge. Time to cut your hair. :P
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I disagree but hey it's his game.
As of 'always' I try to run my games by RAW. Just happens this time that RAW gives me a little piece of perverse pleasure given I can't not have magic-item shops, i.e. they are RAW, but I can apply RAW to how they function. For me this means if there is finger point to be done, Jason B. you're it!
Most, if not all, of my players know my GMing means RAW and core rules only - been that way in 1e (we don't need no stinking Cavalier), 2e (Kit? You mean a bag and a 10' foot pole), 3/3.5e (Is it in the PHB? No? Why are you asking?), 4e (we use only Essentials in this case), and PF (APG = Another Pain in the Groin).
As luck would have it my game is social and if my little RAW + CORE ruling keeps me sane and running the game week after week then they don't grumble... well much :)
Thanks for all the comments - I have taken many on-board and in adventure design may sprinkle in some desired goodies - well maybe...
Cheers,
S.
What about those of us who have items available as listed in the book (specific gold value with a 75% of being present any given week and a small, as randomly generated as you like set of items guaranteed to be there) but that refuse to allow, except in the rarest of cases and largest of cities/interplanar trading posts, those items to be found all within the same store?
Is it being too controlling to insist that some of those items are probably on display at shops selling mostly mundane equipment, some are in town because of traveling peddlers of various (possibly illicit) wares that just happened to come across them by chance, some are absolutely illicit goods being sold by local fences, and others still are parts of private collections that are up for sale because some noble is having a rough time with coin lately?
Banning the idea that there is some store into which you can stroll and see all the magical what-nots and thingamajigs available in town is not actually synonymous with preventing your players from having a way to get the items that they want/erroneously thing they need in order to function.
To me (as a player) it doesn't really matter if I bought it all in one store or bought it from a series of individuals as long as the 'basic availability' isn't causing me a butt load of problems to get.
Which raises a very central point -- that 75% is items that are easy to simply buy, as could be considered the 'special' items that are specifically available in a community. This contrariwise means that other items maybe available if more work is put into it.
To me that last statement is the 'selling point' I would use on the complaining player if I was the OP. The fact that, "Hey man, you just asked me what was readily available and that's not it. I'm not saying you won't be able to fine it at all, only that it isn't going to be as easy as other things might be."
At that point the OP will have put the ball back in the PCs court. It is then up to the PC to decide that it is worth while to hunt down and make it happen. Which makes sense to me -- after all he's an adventurer (of some type) -- not exactly the type to cry and kvetch when the going gets hard and the answer isn't readily obvious right?
In thinking about this further I'd like to admit a double standard.
In a 'Beer and Pretzels' dungeon bash campaign I frankly don't get too caught up in the whole Magic Shoppe debate - the campaign is 'plot and roleplay lite' and its really just a series of dungeon bashes... which is really a simple vehicle to get the guys over for beer and chips and a few good laughs. If they want something, write it on their sheet and tick off the gold and ;ets get back to killing Orcs.
In a more serious campaign, I tend to dispense with Shoppes and work availability (or not) into the storyline/campaign. Things might not just be available, they might need to build contacts etc.
Your campaign should be the thing that determines the availability, not the players, and not an arbitrary set of rules in the CRB - just make sure everyone knows what the deal is before sitting at the table and starting character generation.
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This is a contentious issue and I have stood on both sides of this argument in the past.
I must admit, however, that my hard-ass ways were generally the product of a time where I was exclusively GMing for a great many years. I discovered that my hard-ass ways were not the product of a different, more refined, Old Skool gaming style. Not at all. They were instead in large part inflamed by an undiagnosed case of GMitis. When you GM too much, you forget what it is like to be a player; worse, while you don't know it, the quality of the game you run is suffering overall. A good GM can perhaps "only GM", but to be a great GM - you need to be BOTH playing and GMing.
Once I started playing in addition to GMing, my hard-ass ways when it came to magic items in Pathfinder stopped almost immediately. My GMitis was cured.
One possible gloss upon the RAW that has not been mentioned yet can be used in conjunction with the RAW. In Pathfinder Society, the new FAME mechanic allows players to buy whatever Standard magical gear they want out of the Core Rulebooks if they have enough money in PFS; however,
1 [i]The GP value of the item cannot be more than their current fame allows.
The FAME mechanic is tied closely to prestige awards in PFS games, but can easily be converted to XP points for use in a home campaign. Depending on the power level of your game, convert the fame table which appears in the PFS Field Guide at page 3 to a level limit on the availability of a magic item based upon fame. Make the conversion and you get something close to this:
Fame and Item Purchases
Fame Score / Maximum Item Cost
1st lvl or less 500 gp
2nd lvl 1,500 gp
2rd 3,000 gp
4th 5,250 gp
5th 8,000 gp
6th 11,750 gp
7th 16,500 gp
8th 23,000 gp
9th 31,000 gp
10th 41,000 gp
11th 54,000 gp
12th 70,000 gp
13th 92,500 gp
14th 120,000 gp
15th or more 157,500 gp
This addresses the problem which can occur as a result of the party distributing magic or gold unevenly, (or when you end up giving them too much). So the availability is not simply controlled by the size of the City (though you can use that) but the sufficient connections and trust to obtain the item isn't present until a minimum XP is present, too.
While Magic-Mart from a flavor standpoint has it's own pluses and minuses, I am sure that we have all experienced the REAL problem that is the source of such Shops in previous campaigns, namely, the PCs get hold of gear that makes them overpowered. The FAME mechanic addresses this issue admirably.
Lastly, the concept of a hugely overstocked shop can be offensive to many GMs and players. Think of it instead as part shop, part trade network, part estate sales, part crafting and -- sometimes even part "Thieves Guild". Cocky players who truly overstep might find the item available -- even at a relative bargain price. A few weeks later, they might find the true owner coming to look for it, too.
In any event, the kind of inflammatory language employed in this thread is not helpful. Pathfinder frankly DOES assume a relatively magic rich default in it's rules, and it DOES assume items are available for purchase (albeit with restrictions) and it most surely DOES assume crafting of items by players. Your players have a right to expect that. Just as you have a right to say " no", you should not be surprised if a player quits when faced with such a GM says "no" right back at your face -- and leaves your table.
I would strongly advise against crippling crafting feats after a PC has assigned precious feats towards crafting. That's a campaign I would quit and I'd call out your bad GM ass to all and sundry for it, too.
True true. I actually never considered plane shifting to shorten the time span for crafting and that is pretty badass. So you win this time! =P Also I have to admit my experience with long term high level campaigns is pretty low since I've only recently gotten back into DnD in the last year or so.
Hey man, glad I could give you some ideas. That's what's great about sharing our thoughts on the forums. Thanks for the props either way. ^-^
Since I've GMed in quite a few high level games (most of which began as low-level games), I would seriously say it's an entirely different beast than lower level games. A lot of stuff changes, and I definitely believe that having some nice magic items is good. But the ones that are really critical tend to be the defensive ones and ones that help you get out of sticky situations.
A lot of people say glass cannons are the most effective characters in D&D, because kill-capacity means less damage taken. At high levels, I find that having a robust defense and tricks are critical to survival, since you are more likely to face more and more foes who are legitimately threatening even despite being a fairly low level in relation to the party. It becomes less about raw killing power and more about setting up combos with your party, and diminishing the effects of your enemies' tactics.
For example, Fighters should have some armor that grants freedom of movement for at least short spurts in case enemies want to drop some no-save crowd-control spells on them. Things that let characters short-range teleport to get around exceptional obstacles or to evade terrible things is a good idea. Likewise, chaining class features together to preform Dream Super Combos is more critical than your own personal power.
For example, let's pretend you have an Anti-Paladin, a Cleric, a Ranger, and a Wizard in your party. You want to work together to take down an opponent exceptionally quickly.
Round 1: Ranger uses is minor cloak of displacement and high Stealth modifier to vanish, and draws a life-drinker as part of his movement. The cleric casts death ward on the anti-paladin, who has his own life-drinker out and ready. Anti-Paladin delays until the wizard's turn. The wizard casts Telekinesis and hurls the Anti-Paladin at the nearest enemy they plan to take down stat. The Antipaladin slams into the enemy deal TK-damage, and immediately takes his action, and begins full-attacking the foe, inflicting 2-6 negative levels per hit on the foe, and giving the enemy a -2 to all saving throws due to his Aura of Despair.
Round 2: If the enemy isn't dead from the combination of negative levels and damage (every hit is reducing HP by 10, and attacks, saves, and skill checks by 2), then the Ranger emerges into the Fight and begins doing the same after activating his armor which gives him death ward for up to 70 rounds per day.
More enemies engage in the battle, and immediately get -2 to all saves for getting into the paladin's aura. The Paladin and Ranger then begin tearing into foes, and then the cleric casts implosion which he gets to target 1 enemy / round with, all of which are suffering a -2 to all saves plus -2 for every time the ranger or antipaladin struck them (-6 on a critical hit since negative levels multiply).
Round 3: The party is ambushed by the real threat who wanted them to waste their actions dealing with minions before revealing himself, and it is a wizard who begins the battle with a quickened black tentacles followed by solid fog centered on the Antipaladin and Ranger, locking them into that area solidly.
The Paladin and Ranger activate their freedom of movement gears and rush out of the mess, just as the cleric casts a maximized summon monster via a rod and summons 5 erinyes archers with continual true-seeing to help scout for the wizard while providing archery support to lead the group to the wizard. Meanwhile, the party's wizard casts projected image followed by ethereal jaunt to turn ethereal without breaking LoS to her image so that she cannot be targeted by non-force effects while continuing to provide her party support in the form of spells.
Etc, etc, etc.
"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity. I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"
What about those of us who have items available as listed in the book (specific gold value with a 75% of being present any given week and a small, as randomly generated as you like set of items guaranteed to be there) but that refuse to allow, except in the rarest of cases and largest of cities/interplanar trading posts, those items to be found all within the same store?
Is it being too controlling to insist that some of those items are probably on display at shops selling mostly mundane equipment, some are in town because of traveling peddlers of various (possibly illicit) wares that just happened to come across them by chance, some are absolutely illicit goods being sold by local fences, and others still are parts of private collections that are up for sale because some noble is having a rough time with coin lately?
Banning the idea that there is some store into which you can stroll and see all the magical what-nots and thingamajigs available in town is not actually synonymous with preventing your players from having a way to get the items that they want/erroneously thing they need in order to function.
I was being coarse because banning is an extreme that is IMO sillier than even the most excessive magic shop.
In my mind, EVERY church in EVERY city should sell potions and wands, because it is an easy way to:
- Earn a sizable income.
- Battle the enemies of the faith by proxy though supporting heroes.
- Stimulate the economy
- Further the influence of their gods.
Every village large enough to have resident wizard will have up to lv3 scrolls (375gp) available. Not ALL spells, but the choice ones. Just like a decent blacksmith will have a Masterwork Greatsword (350gp) I think it only fair that the wizard gets to buy his upgrades alongside the fighter.
And as for making a whole session or even two be about advanced shopping: I have nothing nice to say about that. If the GM wants to have the rogue waste half our session negotiating with the crimelords that sell +1 agile daggers, he better warn me, so I can bring my PSP.
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I know this might not totally pertain the the op's topic but the last adventure I played in was 3.5 return to the temple of elemental evil, we quested in the temple for many lvls we eventually made it to the bbeg lair we were at lvl 11 and we faced a cr 20 encounter and killed it in 6 rounds with only 2 people being effective and that was because of teamwork not super high magic items we never made it to a shop durring the adventure we just got what the dm gave us which was not alot. At the end of the encounter we lvld 4 times it was crazy and we never had crazy magic items or super high stat bonus's we just played to the weakness of the bbeg and the strengths of our party.
I am unreasonable?
S.For not giving him exactly what he wants? No.
For making it seem completely arbitrary and possibly not hiding your dislike for 'magic marts'? It does sound that way.
I still fondly recall one 1E campaign I was in WAY back when, where I had the feeling that I could open a random door and behind that door would be something that was already there. Rolling a d4 or worse, having a player roll it... destroys that.
-James
It sounds like you're saying he should pre-generate magic item lists for every town the players come across ahead of time. That doesn't seem like the best use of GM prep time.
I've noticed several people saying that it's unreasonable for a level 4 to get a +2 weapon.
Just thought I'd point out that in the Carrion Crown AP we're currently playing through, the last enemy of book one has a +1 keen longsword in his treasure, and that the reward for the very first battle of book two is a +1 shapechanger-bane dagger - both +2-equivalent.
That may be an exception - since the AP contains a fair amount of incorporeal creatures, perhaps the writers wanted to get some counters in place for incorporeality.
You will find that most pathfinder adventures have a significant variety in the level of magic rewards that appear in them. For instance my character at level 5 got a +2 feybane sword in kingmaker. That isnt within the guidelines of the wealth tables, but that is why they are guidelines and not rules. Sometimes you go in or out of them. The vagueness of what kind and how much treasure players 'should' get is one of the most significant problems still present in the game if you ask me.
"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity. I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"
it would have to be a 7th level commoner, unless you have a means of of a commoner getting two 5th level feats.
...It sounds like you're saying he should pre-generate magic item lists for every town the players come across ahead of time. That doesn't seem like the best use of GM prep time.
I would not go that far. But when I know the party is going to head to a significant town with significant cash burning to be spent I would take a few minutes ahead of time to determine a few significant details like the major magic/special items to be found for sale. Minor things I just decide on the fly (usually giving it to them).
But if they go on a shopping run when I wasn't expecting it I might have to roll it. Or tell them they have to wait until next week.
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Even under the relatively parsimonious rules for treasure in Pathfinder Society, a character who has been successful in obtaining all available prestige award points while adventuring (and to be clear, in practice that's typically most PCs) will technically be able to purchase a +2 Sword 2/3rds of the way through 4th level. Most will delay that purchase until 5th level or later -- still -- it's entirely legal under PFS RAW.
The twitchy reaction here to +2 swords being available at 4th level, while understandable from a historical perspective of the game, is a little bit of an over-reaction in terms of the intention of the current game's designers.
... The twitchy reaction here to +2 swords being available at 4th level, while understandable from a historical perspective of the game, is a little bit of an over-reaction in terms of the intention of the current game's designers.
From me at least, it isn't a reaction to possibly saving up for a +2 weapon by 4th level. It is that by 4th level we've found so many +2 or better magic item that my wizard is carrying a +2 assassin's dagger, a +1 mithral dagger, and gave a +2 witches dagger to a hireling. The paladin already has a +2 intelligent (or possessed) long sword with quite a few powers, the rogue has a +2 dwarven thrower and a +2 melee weapon, etc...
They're also big on using potions and such. Man, most of my players are wielding +1 effective weapons half the time before 2nd level, because of oils of magic weapon being a mere 50 gp. Go to your local apothecary and stock up on those, enlarge person, and similarly useful potions. Lead blade and gravity bow are also popular oils they will pick up. Believe me, the big bad popping protection from arrows is going to be horribly disappointed when the martial pops an enlarge person, and all three of his allies use their action to apply oils to his bow. Ok, in one turn, you have the warrior who is enlarged, with a +1 gravity bow and lead bladed glaive. Yikes! Get the heck out of there BBEG, they are going to...FYI, this situation is rife with problems. Lead Blades and Gravity Bow are personal spells, and hence cannot be made into potions. Enlarge Person specifically does not increase the damage dice of range weapons.
Ah yes, my bad. I had forgotten that Gravity Blade/Lead Blade weren't like magic weapon which targets your weapon. Worse yet, it seems I hadn't noticed the (albeit small) change to enlarge person from its 3.5 counterpart. The 3.5 counterpart notes that projectile weapons deal damage based on the weapon that fired them, whereas thrown weapons return to normal size and deal normal damage. Pathfinder seems to have nerfed the projectile bit.
Oh well. A bit embarrassing, but we can't be right all the time. :(
The rest of said post is pretty spot-on. They do use oils of magic weapon, potions of enlarge person, and other nice buffs and such.=================================
Back On Topic
One of the biggest problems I see with the whole anti-magic-mart crowd is that supposedly everyone is supposed to be getting their phat lewts off mob drops out adventuring and amassing gold. Gold and treasures primarily being used to procure magical sundries as expected. I don't know about everyone else,...
I have seen another player who has this perspective. Not saying that there are no crafters in the realm. However, in a world with all sorts of mystical advancement, divine and arcane, wizard, sorcerer, warlock, cleric...etc, where cool things like spell duels and interesting poisons and potion concoctions exist, to suggest the majority go into crafting just kills the excitement and suspense. Nerfs the thought of cool possibilities just a bit.
What I find strange, and I've had to deal with this as a player and a dm, is that if you have magic item shops, some will go and flock there and want all these exact items, and some players will not be interested at all.
Then the players that want to be adventurers and not shoppers, have to wait. The dm then chooses whether he applies the rule limits on what is there, rolls for anything the pc wants or just lets them have whatever they can afford. All the while, they wait as the excited hoarder player tries to buy all the new and shiny items and fill all their slots.
I love having no magic item shops in my games.
Yay Caliburn :)
Not only are they luxuries, but they are also somewhat akin to buying high end weaponry... kind of attracts the wrong kind of attention when you set up a dealership. Local medieval ATF will be camping out in your lobby.
I am particularly keen on the attention of rogues, jealous nobles, pissed off churches, worried rules etc. etc. trying to reduce their stress levels by either forceably buying, stealing or killing to get powerful items from PC's.
Not only that - I have local authorities put reasonable restrictions on such things - warranting taxes, registration, bans (no fireball wands in 'Cedarwood City' limits....) and other perfectly sensible controls - like nobles not allowing any scrying items on their estates, or embassies confiscating Charm or +Cha based items.
The default is to allow the PC's free-reign with, in some cases, what amounts to WMD's in important and/or vulnerable places.
IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN!!!!
Good stuff. I heartily agree. If you want to see a random robbers table, 3.5 Loyalist has one....I think.
I do. It can get really dangerous for the pcs. It sure can give xp and some more items, but it can also come up at the worst of times.
Random Robbers Table
Adventurers often attract unwanted attention. Being adorned with magic items, gleaming armour and weapons, jewellery and purses over-flowing with coin does not lessen the attention they receive. Below is a table, to represent the range of characters that are likely to be attracted by small groups of wealthy passers-by. They will approach the party, either clandestinely or openly. Wealth is their first interest, but murder can most certainly be on the cards. They are considered to be unfriendly, and close to hostile. Rolling high can make the encounter very dangerous indeed worse for the accumulators of wealth, the majority below are desperate and not especially wealthy or rewarding to kill.
D100 Roll
Numbers Description
1-20 2d6 Footpads: these are rogues with light weapons; they are a few levels below the party, and quite poor.
2-40 2d8 Bandits: ranger/rogues with favoured enemy corresponding to the party type. They use ranged weapons for the most part; are below the level of the party and have some wealth in weaponry.
40-60 2d8 Hard men: fighters, thugs and barbarians. They have the skills to take what they want by force. Closer to the party in level.
60-80 2d4 Accomplished Murderers: rogue/fighters and rogue/assassins. They kill for money, through poison applied to blades and bolts—they will surely kill passer-bys for loot.
80-90 1-3 or 2d10 Greedy Squires or a Cruel Lord and his Men: when nobles encounter or hear of wealthy adventurers they do not always give them missions and payment. These knights, or a minor lord and his men are challenges that can swiftly overwhelm.
90-95 The party Druman Treasure Hunters: a team of highly skilled men of diverse talent, but all skilled in the re-acquisition of wealth. They are slightly above the party’s level.
96-99 100+ An Instantly Rebellious Village: the outlanders passing by with their great fortunes and greedy eyes, sets the poor folk of the nearest settlement to instant rebellion and frenzied attack with any available implement.
100 ? A powerful foe this way comes. High level paladins, wizards, a dragon or a figure of great power.
By Trevor Wilson
"I have banned magic-marts"
is a shorter way of saying
"I have a cathartic NEED of being in full control, able to hamstring characters and arbitrarily punishing someone for playing something out of the ordinary unless I in my divine grace deign to give the character a measured amount of generosity.
Have to disagree. Banning it turns the game into a more survival-type game. Encourages the PCs to take a more calculated perspective at their wealth. Instead of buying magic stuff, buy a ship, hire mercenaries and start your own guild. Things like that.I have seen players who really hate this because it raises the difficulty of the game. If the game gets more difficult, I tend to reward them in different ways. That was how I ran a short kingmaker campaign. The odds were stacked against the PCs and the CRs of the opponents went up a bit. Despite it being high magic, I noticed the bosses and even subordinates of the bosses were loaded with magic items. Hence I made the adjustment to compensate for this. I would say its quite the opposite of your perspective.
"I have little to no coping ability, and for some reason think that magic should be SPESHUL, because only 80% of the player classes do magic, and any lv5 commoner can make a magical sword, which means it should be rare, right?"
I think its quite the opposite. Allowing abundance of magic-marts and players to easily purchase and completely optimize their characters screams a fear of potentially offending players at the expense of running an actual dangerous/cool campaign worthy of bard songs. I sense a lack of ability to cope with a bit of extra work which has to be done if the magic marts are removed. Furthermore, the spellcasting classes are not 80 % of all classes. Melee classes take up a fair proportion of PC classes too. Level 5 commoners are not that rare but are they level 5 commoners or level 5 adepts? Level 5 adepts may be able to craft a minor magic item but are they all duplicates of each other with magical crafting feats? Thats like assuming every expert and fighter has ranks in craft skill and at least craft weapon or armor smithing. Maybe thats the game you're used to but perhaps you should change the the name of the campaign, regardless of the setting to: <Pathfinder, Crafting and Shopping Chronicles>.
I have magic shops -- I have never had a player turn to me and say, "You got to quit hitting us with the kiddy gloves man."
Furthermore, the spellcasting classes are not 80 % of all classes.Let's see...
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Barbarianvs.
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorcerer
Ranger
PaladinYou're right, it's more like 65%. 75% if you factor in APG/UM/UC classes.
Well to expand:
Non-casters:
Cavalier
Gunslinger
Casters:
Alchemist
Inquisitor
Magus
Oracle
Summoner
Witch
So we have 5 to 13, or 72% -- factor in NPC classes and it ends up 7 to 14 or 66%.
All of which can make magical items.