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Spell combat- as a full-round action, you can hit the enemy with your sword and cast a spell with a range of touch (and attack with it), all at a -2 penalty to each attack roll.
Spellstrike- When you cast a spell that has a range of touch, you can instead of making a touch attack, can make a normal sword attack (resolved at normal AC) and use that hit. The target will be damaged by both the sword and the spell. Also, using the sword's crit range as the spell's crit range.
Both: as full-round action, declare both abilities, then first cast your spell. Then use Spellstrike to hit it with your sword, dealing both damages. Then if that does not work, the sword is still charged, so you can try again. If you hit the first time, then you get another normal attack.
Probably ninja'd...
Ok I have a question and I need someone to please answer preferably someone who runs the site.
How exactly does spellcombat and spellstrike work? I need to know cause my group is divided and I'm about ready to quit pathfinder.
Please answer and yes this is for society
Perhaps you could be a bit more specific about what aspects are in question or need interpreting?
Half of the people say I can only do one attack with the spell and that's it period. No moving or anything. Just one cast and hit with the sword casting the spell through it and no normal attack
Those people are definitely incorrect. Spellcombat means you can cast and make attacks in the same round. Spellstrike means you can do a FREE melee attack in place of the touch attack to deliver an spell. There's nothing in the rules that says anything about losing the other attack that spellstrike explicitly grants you. However, spellcombat is a full round action, so you could either move and spellstrike with no regular attack, or not move and get your regular attack(s) plus your spellstrike attack.
spellstrike: you can normally move as most spells are a standard action and the attack is free leaving you with a move action.
spell combat: it's written that it is a full round action, thus it only allows a 5ft step. (before or after the full round action, no casting, 5ft step, melee, I'm not 100% sure on this though)
these questions seem quite easy to answer, I can't see how it would lead to such serious trouble, anyhow good luck.
Edit: using both abilities together gives your full normal attack (like 2 attacks at lvl 6) plus casting a spell, AND with spell combat you get your free melee attack IF you use it to deliver that spell. As it's spell combat, it's a full round action, and no moving, but you get more than 1 attack at lvl 6 (with -2 penalty).
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There are a lot of wrong answers in this thread.
Lets start with Spellstrike. You know how Touch Spells in combat work, yes? And Holding the Charge? Once you understand that, then you can know that all Spellstrike does is let you deliver that touch spell with your weapon, rather than with a touch, unarmed strike, or natural attack. Any time you could deliver the touch spell normally, you can instead deliver it with your weapon. When doing so, the crit threat range of the spell shares that of your weapon.
You can use Spellstrike any time you could normally deliver a touch spell. If your BAB is +6/+1 and you have a held charge, you could normally make two attacks, the first one to land delivers the spell. Spellstrike does the same thing, only using your sword instead of your fist or claw or whatever.
When you cast a touch spell, you get to make a touch attack for free as part of casting. You can do so after casting the spell, or even after casting the spell and moving. Spellstrike lets you deliver that free touch attack with your weapon.
Any time you can deliver a touch spell, you can use Spellstrike to do so with your weapon.
On to Spell Combat. You do not have to combine Spell Combat with Spellstrike, but you are free to do so if you choose. Spell Combat is a full-round action, it lets you make your normal full attack with your weapon, and also cast a standard-action spell in the same round.
Examples:
Cast Shield, take a 5' step, then attack with your sword.
Cast Magic Missile, take 5' step, then attack with your sword.
Attack with your sword, take 5' step, cast Invisibility.
If you cast a Touch spell, you have the option of using Spellstrike, just like any other time you cast a touch spell.
Without Spellstrike:
Cast Shocking Grasp, take 5' step, touch orc (zap), then attack with sword.
With Spellstrike:
Cast Shocking Grasp, take 5' step, attack with sword to deliver spell (zap), then make normal attack(s) with sword.
Spell Combat is a full-round action, the only movement you can make is a 5' step, and you can do so at any time during the turn, even between attacking or casting or whatever.
I'll take this opportunity to link the Spellstrike FAQ thread in case anyone wishes to add a FAQ tag to it.
Sence I am the "wrong" Dm here let me make sure everyone knows what I ruled on (5' step does not factor in here at all):
Player (2nd or 3rd level Magus/ 1st level Paladin important part: 1 attack per round) is attacking a gnoll. He casts shocking grasp and attacks with his longsword (Melee Dmg and Spell Damage), he then wants to take his "free" attack, Melee damage only because he's already used his spell. What I said, was he does not get two melee attacks in the same round. Maybe I'm missing it Gina and Shfish, but I don't see anyone disagreeing with this. IF he was at a 6/1 attack per round, he of course, get two melee attacks, the second one without magic.
I welcome opinions but what I'm looking for here is someone who wrote or helped write the rules.
I feel an overwhelming desire to insult you and call you names sir. Grick set it out for you on a golden platter exactly how it is by the rules. He did not state any opinions. In my opinion, you gave him a giant middle finger.
I would wager that his explanation is better than most that have come before. I would also go so far as to say that one of the designers would tell you to reference Grick's post.
So, would you also tell me that my level 1 fighter with the two weapon fighting feat only gets one attack since he doesn't have a BAB of +6/+1? What about the archer with the rapid shot feat? Does he only get a single attack, with a -2 penalty no less, until he has a BAB high enough to get two attacks?
Either I'm being an ass or you are just reading what you want not what asking.
Grick please don't think I was ignoring what you wrote, my question boiled down to "touch attack" and "melee attack" per round (allowed in my opinion) or "Melee attack with spell" and "melee attack" (not allowed). Melee attack = weapon damage.
Nothing to do with two weapon attacks or archers or haste, or boots of speed or.....
I think you may have missed what some of what Grick was saying. Spellstrike gives the character the ability to alter their touch attacks to instead be, functionally, channeled through a weapon effectively granting them weapon damage instead of a poke. This alteration is equivalent to how using two weapons gives you an extra stab, or rapid shots nets you an extra arrow...
I will assume you missed this instead of being rude, because you seem like you honestly don't get it. So if someone is using spell combat and spell strike then they get to swing until they run out of BaB and cast a spell now if they choose to channel that spell through their weapon then yes it does do weapon damage in addition to the strike at the beginning of the turn. This is why the magus gets reduced spell growth and a slightly gimped spell list. They are functionally trading all those wizard spells for this. It really isn't that much additional damage.
Okay, so a Magus 2nd level gets two Melee attacks, the first one being combined with a spell both at his highest attack bonus -2, sounds wrong but okay.
The downside for the magus to choosing this route is that he is Aoo bait in a heavy melee unless he takes precautions otherwise. He gets his five foot step. As a dm I would keep a very good eye on where the attackers are placed as well as reach and when he's using it and make sure he makes his rolls to prevent being bait.
Okay, so a Magus 2nd level gets two Melee attacks, the first one being combined with a spell both at his highest attack bonus -2, sounds wrong but okay.
Yep, it comes into play because spell strike says "whenever you cast a melee touch spell, you can deliver it through a weapon attack." The act of using spell strike would HAVE to give you an extra weapon attack or else you would never be able to use spellstrike in a single round (since you would have to cast the spell as a standard action, and make your attack in the next round).
However, Spell Combat says you can make a full attack AND cast a spell. If the spell you cast happens to be a melee touch spell, you can choose to use Spellstrike, which in itself gets you an extra attack as shown above.
Therefore, yes, you can have a 2nd-level magus making two attacks, but ONLY if he combines spell combat and spell strike, and only when casting a melee touch spell.
Also keep in mind the magus has a 3/4 BaB growth. If he takes too many penalties to avoid getting walloped then he's not going to be hitting anything. Granted he can boost that up quite a bit artificially, but that takes money and/or turns to do so.
Okay, so a Magus 2nd level gets two Melee attacks, the first one being combined with a spell both at his highest attack bonus -2, sounds wrong but okay.
If it makes more sense, look at it this way instead. Spell combat means a magus can attack and cast a spell in the same round, -2 to hit on all attacks being the penalty. It's like 2 weapon fighting in that you get the penalty to hit and it needs to be a full round action.
Done. No question about that.
Spellstrike can deliver any touch spell as a weapon attack + the touch spell instead. That's also clearly stated in the rules. The downside of this is that a weapon attack is harder to hit with than a touch attack -- but you get more damage and a better crit range as a tradeoff.
That also, I presume, is clear.
You're thinking for some reason that those abilities can't be combined. You're thinking that your magus is taking a 2nd attack, but he's not -- he's getting an attack and a spell. Magi just happen to cast touch spells a special way, and it includes an attack.
Not to sound like a jerk, but you say you want developer input on this ruling, but it's not necessary. They wrote the rules in the first place, and the rules quite clearly allow what you are disallowing. You may rule otherwise, that's your prerogative as a DM. But it's not RAW.
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Ken,
Here's how the Spellstrike + Spell Combat breaks down
Magus has a spell and an attack from spell combat. This is a full round action, at -2 and is effectively two-weapon fighting where one of the weapons is a spell.
If he uses Spellstrike and casts a touch spell, he can make an attack as part of casting the spell. This is still part of the spell component of Spell Combat.
Either way he gets to make a completely normal attack with his weapon as part of spell combat, albeit with the -2 to hit.
Spellstrike isn't an extra attack with a weapon, it's delivering a touch attack spell via the weapon. Normally when you cast a touch spell, you get to use it immediately. This is the same thing, he's just using a special ability to channel it through his sword.
Also, please, try to use quote tags when you're replying as it's very confusing when what you're quoting isn't shown clearly. If you don't know how to use quote tags, you can click on the button next to *How to format text" when you're writing your post.
No, he took an attack with weapon damage and spell damage. then he wanted a second attack with just weapon damage.
I think the problem here is you're looking at the first attack like two. If he only rolled the dice once, and got weapon damage and spell damage, that's correct. It's also only one attack, spellstrike. Spell combat DOES grant him the second melee only attack, though both attacks are at -2.
Does that help at all?
edit: Also, just as a heads up, its hard to think of a less optimized multiclass than Magus/Paladin.
He loses anything past light armor if he wants to cast without ASF. He cant use a 2her OR a shield, which is horrid. He's spreading his stats even further with MAD, now needing cha on top of the magus' build in MAD.
he's either doing it wrong, or really hurting himself. Ranger would have been a better choice, or fighter.
Can I juggle the charge, shifting it from my weapon to my off hand to take advantage of the low touch AC?
There are no rules about 'where' the charge is held. By RAW, you're simply holding a charge. And Spellstrike gives you the option to deliver that charge with your weapon. You don't have to use Spellstrike, so you still have the option of using a regular touch.
Some DMs will decide that there's a part of your body the charge is held in, and that is decided when you cast the spell, and from then on it can only be discharged using that part of the body. They feel that if you have a held charge, and you formerly tried to touch something and missed, that you no longer have the option to use Spellstrike since the charge is in your hand instead of inside the sword. So ask your DM.
If you just want to get rid of the charge so you can pet your horse or something, you can also harmlessly discharge it by casting another spell. So create water or detect magic or something and your hand is free to pick flowers and stuff.
Half of the people say I can only do one attack with the spell and that's it period. No moving or anything. Just one cast and hit with the sword casting the spell through it and no normal attackThose people are definitely incorrect. Spellcombat means you can cast and make attacks in the same round. Spellstrike means you can do a FREE melee attack in place of the touch attack to deliver an spell. There's nothing in the rules that says anything about losing the other attack that spellstrike explicitly grants you. However, spellcombat is a full round action, so you could either move and spellstrike with no regular attack, or not move and get your regular attack(s) plus your spellstrike attack.
If I am understanding this correctly, it means that a Magus at level 2 with 14 Str and BAB of +1, no MW weapon or Weapon Focus, would be able to make two melee attacks and cast a spell in each round, using Spellstrike. The attacks would be at +1 and +1 for each attack due to the full round action and TWF rules. So a longsword user casting on the second attack would have +1/+1 melee attacks. On a hit, and assuming the Magus cast something like Shocking grasp at caster level 2, he would then damage the target for 2d8 + 2d6 + 4 per round. Is this correct?
If I am understanding this correctly, it means that a Magus at level 2 with 14 Str and BAB of +1, no MW weapon or Weapon Focus, would be able to make two melee attacks and cast a spell in each round, using Spellstrike. The attacks would be at +1 and +1 for each attack due to the full round action and TWF rules. So a longsword user casting on the second attack would have +1/+1 melee attacks. On a hit, and assuming the Magus cast something like Shocking grasp at caster level 2, he would then damage the target for 2d8 + 2d6 + 4 per round. Is this correct?
It's backwards and confusing, but the result is correct.
He uses Spell Combat as a full-round action.
He casts Shocking Grasp, which grants him a free touch attack. He can A) roll a d20, making a melee touch attack to deliver the spell, or B) roll a d20, making a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
If he does A and hits, he delivers the shocking grasp for 2d6. If he does B and hits, he deals weapon damage (1d8+2) and delivers the shocking grasp for 2d6.
That takes care of his casting a spell. Now he gets a full-attack. Since he's level 2, that means 1 attack with his sword. Roll a d20 for a melee attack with his sword. If he hits he deals weapon damage (1d8+2) and if he missed earlier, he also delivers the shocking grasp and deals 2d6.
So he rolls two attacks total. If he hits with both, for the entire round he deals 2d6+2d8+4 assuming no DR, resistance, etc.
If he hit every time (with that +1 to hit, it's not likely). He has to hit twice to do 1d8+2d6+2 on one hit and 1d8+2 on the second hit in a round. Also note, he has to cast defensively each round he is threatened while doing spell combat, or suffer the AoO, and he will be limited to the number of 1st level spells he can cast at that level too.
Magi are great for melee nuke options. It takes awhile before they can sustain the damage. And even longer (if ever) before they can stand up to a full attack response from a lot of monsters.
Thanks Grick. You've been patiently (as well as clearly and accurately) answering a lot of magus spellstrike/spellcombat questions.
Thanks. There are so many questions about it because it relies on a solid understanding of rules that are spread out though the book, and usually not used very often. If someone is unclear, at all, about how touch spells work, holding the charge, and iterative attacks vs normal AC, then adding the layer of Magus stuff on top of those existing rules will completely confuse them.
I've been thinking of trying to write up a clear guide to the whole thing, starting with touch spells, going through all the background info, then how the Magus can change things. But without a bit of official clarification, it would still contain my opinion on a few things, and not be good enough to settle table arguments or whatever.
So he rolls two attacks total. If he hits with both, for the entire round he deals 2d6+2d8+4 assuming no DR, resistance, etc.
I have to admit that this freaked me out at first, until I remembered that rogues can do this exact same thing at 2nd level with Sneak Attack and TWF. I guess I can just classify Magus as a glass cannon.
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So he rolls two attacks total. If he hits with both, for the entire round he deals 2d6+2d8+4 assuming no DR, resistance, etc.I have to admit that this freaked me out at first, until I remembered that rogues can do this exact same thing at 2nd level with Sneak Attack and TWF.
So basically, a magus is like a rogue whose Sneak Attack is on a "per day" basis instead of a circumstance basis? :)
You know you could have taken black blade Magus for an overall same effect, but without losing half the paladin abilities, right?
I removed some drama that was not helping answer the question. Chill out, folks.