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CampinCarl9127 wrote:

The maximum score in any attribute for a character who starts at 20 (assuming 18 +2 for race) is a 36. There are ways to temporarily increase your bonus above this, but 36 is the maximum permanent score for a player who starts with an 18 and their race gives them +2.

I'm not 100% sure, but the wording of the spell makes me inclines to think that you have to supply the entire cost.

If you have a strength score of 0 (negative is not possible), then you are unconscious and cannot cast at all.

Dragon Disciple + EH Orc would like a word with you.

20 + 4 DD + 6 IEH + 6 Belt + 5 Tome + 5 CharAdvancement lvl20 = 46 Strg

Edit: had not refreshed - ninjaed by hours...


holy necro

to answer: there is a FAQ on this not stacking.

However with the ACG a new feat "improved dirge of doom" (and "greater dirge of doom") was introduced, which gives almost exactly this benefit.


DM Papa.DRB wrote:

There is a table somewhere in the PRD that details what a +x weapon overcomes as far as +x overcomes silver (or whatever). I can not find the blasted table, Can someone link it for me.

-- david

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reductio n

Gamemastering -> Special Abilities -> Damage Reduction -> Overcoming DR


I read a post about donning armor after casting a polymorph spell (btw: this seems a great opportunity for that nifty Swift girding spell).

Now, what I wonder: What happens after the spell Ends. Am I now wearing 2 armors (assuming I did wear one before polymorphing)?
I assume this would RAW mean I am simply carrying extra weight and the higher of my armors is in effect, correct?

Cheers


I did not find that CL math pattern for several other items - not sure that proves something - thx anyways, the 27k sounds reasonable to me too.

Generally - should I FAQ this thread to get the error fixed?


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hallo,

The PRD states the Gloves of The Shortened Path with:
Price 27000gp
Cost 8000gp

I see no reason why the cost would be below the common Price/2. Thus, I wonder whether the Price or the Cost is wrong.

Option 1: Change Price to 16000gp
Option 2: Change cost to 13500gp
Option 3: Intentional?

Thx


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Cheers,

Can a Bard with an Archetype that replaces Dirge of Doom (e.g. Dervish Dancer, Flame Dancer) use a Doomharp to get Dirge of Doom?
If that is the case, can he afterwards get the improved and greater dirge of doom feat?

Doomharp text wrote:
Made from bone and sun-dried sinew, this masterwork harp produces a vague sense of unease in anyone near it. If the owner of this item has the bardic performance class feature he can use it to perform a dirge of doom even if he is not of sufficient level to normally have access to that ability. A bard who can use dirge of doom and who plays the harp as part of his performance increases the effective radius to 60 feet.

My conflict:

"even if he is not of sufficient Level". RAW this seems no hard limitation, but actually is an explicit enabler. However, it seems to indicate that developers did not consider Archetypes without Dirge?

Improved Dirge of Doom text:

Improved Dirge of Doom feat prereq text wrote:
Prerequisite(s): Ability to perform dirge of doom.

--> it does not say "dirge of doom class ability", but just ability - so it should be possible by RAW.

Thoughts?

Thx


BuzzardB wrote:
Talandor wrote:

A wish:

It would be great if the bestiary could be sorted for CR and Type at the same time.

Eg: Searching for an Undead of CR6 is quite difficult right now, but its how I choose my monsters...

Thanks for all the efforts!

I concur, this would be very useful.

Shame on me - just found out that this is possible using the Monsters DB instead of the "Monsters by ..."-Lists.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A wish:
It would be great if the bestiary could be sorted for CR and Type at the same time.

Eg: Searching for an Undead of CR6 is quite difficult right now, but its how I choose my monsters...

Thanks for all the efforts!


Well - I d say it sucks pretty badly.

* combat casting - decent
* umarmed strike - what for?
* deflect arrows - very circumstancial
* quickdraw - very circumstancial, very minor effect
* power attack - ok
* bloody assault - you arent full BAB and -5 hit does not fit; the bleed dmg seems minor to me

You might want to check walters guide to the magus:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz40tc&page=1?UM-Walters-Guide-to-the-Magus


There is an FAQ/Errata that the CL is no requirement at all!
Note Pearl of Power is CL 17 which has makes it hard to craft (high craft check DC), but does not restrict a lvl5 wizard from doing it.


Advanced Players Guide wrote:
A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list. A witch must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.

So even if you could teach a spell to your familiar you could not cast it.


If we agree on messy - I d appreciate a faq hit.

Till then I hope to get it resolved with my GM.


Channeling does not, caster levels do not - I dont see how hex levels would.

PF is quite restrictive when it comes to multiclassing.


Sangalor wrote:


The ability is gained through the wizard class, so it is a class feature and applies to the wizard class. If you gain it through another class it applies to that class.

According to this interpretation the Eldritch Heritage Feat would work to get a bond for Magus or Bard.

Sangalor wrote:


They do not need to clarify that it applies to the class ability because they already marked it as spell-like ("Sp"), which is defined here.

Bloodline arcana are untyped (no Su/Sp/Ex/...) rating, so they get special treatment.

So it's quite clear IMO :-)

Nice catch there! However the markers for arcane bond are very messy:

- Wizard (Ex or Sp)
- Arcane Duelist (Ex)
- Arcane Bloodline (Su)

If the wizard's bond really is "Sp" then you could dispel it. Further there is no spell granting such bond - thus it can not be spell like!? Good point for errate ;)

Therefore I d say it remains unresolved.


ShadowcatX wrote:
A mystic theurge can't use it to cast a spell from his cleric side because RAI and RAW, he doesn't have his cleric spells in his spell book. However, any cleric spell he tried to cast would require him to have his arcane bond in hand (by RAW, probably not RAI).

This is not consistent with your no for magus spell use?

Either the bond is wizard class related - no casting / no concentration check for multiclass caster levels;

OR it is character related:
cast any spellbook (we agree on arcane only) spell available to the character using the bond / make a concentration check when not wearing the bond for any character spell casting.


Sangalore wrote:
1.b) The WIZARD does not have to make concentration checks to cast magus spells if he has a WIZARD arcane bond.

There we are - you used WIZARD to identify the character with a wizard lvl and the class. What tells you this is not the case for the arcane bond rule?

Nothing makes clear the arcane bond is a class ability in contrast to a character ability. It has no class level dependent variables.

Both examples (arcane duelist, eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) indicate the ability is applicable to other spellcaster classes. This does not proof anything, but atleast for me it indicates it is not an ability strongly tied to a class/wizard, but a character.


ShadowcatX wrote:

No, a magus 5 / wizard 1 can't use it to cast a magus spell.

arcane bond wrote:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.

How would this fit with the arcane bond feature of the arcane duelist? Strictly following your interpretation this would be no use as the arcane duelist has no wizard spells at all that he could cast.

Also how would arcane bond by eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) work, if I picked it as a magus or bard?

Both seem to indicate "wizard" is not meaning the actual class, but the character who happens to be a wizard in the original rules.


The arcane bond remains unresolved here ;)

@Bwang
Is that a double yes: Yes for not restricted to a class and Yes for concentration to all classes?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hello everyone,

I am once more confused by arcane bond and its interaction with multiclassing.
Is it an ability modifiying your spellcasting limited to the granting class or not?
--> Could a Magus or Bard use it for their spells?
Please read following pre answering:

Examples

Spoiler:

Magus 5/Wizard 1
a) May he use arcane bond to cast lvl 2 spells from the magus list?
b) Does he have to make a concentration check when casting a lvl2 magus slot spell not wearing the bond item?
--> It seems logic both come together - also a bit strange that an additional ability (bond) should hamper previous casting ability (no concentration check without bond).

Relevant Quote from FAQ:

Spoiler:
Quote:

General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10"

Several points that seem to indicate it is not limited to the wizard class (are these different "arcane bond abilities?):
* Arcane Duelist gains it as an ability and does obviously use it for his spells
* Arcane Bloodline and or "Eldritch Heritage Feat" gain it and use it for sorcerer spells (although its specifically mentioned and one might argue it is a different "arcane bond abilitiy".

This would however also mean that spellcasting would require concentration checks for all spells without the bond.
Do Arcane Duelist and Arcane Bond from Arcane Bloodline make you do concentration checks when not wearing the bond?

Cheers


Gignere wrote:

Third, fourth or fifth the no dipping with bard levels, except for fighter.

If you want the cool uses of the sorcerer bloodline abilities, just use the Eldritch Heritage feats. Skill Focus: Knowledge nature, then EH for the laughing touch.

Interesting feat - did not have this on the radar.

That seems a good way to get that laughing touch.


Lightbulb wrote:

Well number one is have 2 groups.

If you do play with 8 other players it doesn't matter at all what you play.

Play something you would never normally play because it doesn't fill a 'role'

----

From a power point of view hard to beat a Bard buffing that many other players...

just made an bard(arcane duelist) build on the other thread - i think this will be good fun and it should be great in such a big group.


Quick question:
Any downfall of using a shield with this build?
I didnt think of it - as its impossible for magi (which i play right now) - but seems legit for a bard, right?

Just thought of it as the arcane bond of arcane duelist mentions the sword hand maybe used to cast.


Turgan wrote:

Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus Rapier, Great Fortitude. If you take Step Up, you could go Step Up & Strike (3 feats altogether).

I also second non-dipping. At level 11 Inspire Courage gives +3 on attacks, damage and certain saves. Your character will become less optimized if you dip. The only thing I could understand is taking two or three levels of paladin, after level 11 (from an optimizer's point of view) if you are LG and it fits thematically.

Yeah - the dippin isnt optimal, but I am cool with it. I like to take the good stats for some fun tool-dips.

Both caster dips might be a bit overdoing it, but well - just fancy those powers.
And I cant think of many situations this build would not have something useful/fun to do - which i like.

Touch of laughter (deny casting for 1 rd - no save) seems to fit in well with step up (cant get away that round) and the theme of killing casters.
-- I actually think of taking the sorc dip at lvl 6 - although delaying lvl6/7 bard hurts

Thx for all the contributions - the thought of losing my loved Magus is no longer as daunting :)


Update:
Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Traits: Armor Expert -1 armor pen; Magical Knack +2casterLvl for Dips;
Bard 1 Finesse
Bard 2 Combat casting (arcane duelist)
Bard 3 open feat (shop agile rapier)- lingering performance
Bard 5 open feat - craft wonderous item
Bard 6 Disruptive (arcane duelist) / Bladethirst (arcane duelist)
Bard 7 open feat - step up
Dip1: Wiz1 Forsight (Scribe Scroll)
Dip2: Sorc1 fey laughing touch / arcane armor training
Bard 9 Lunge
Bard 10 Spellbreaker (arcane duelist)

I got so many free feats now (skipping spring at and dervish) - ideas?
- step up to help the theme of caster killing
- what best to improve performance? (lingering)


Cult of Vorg wrote:

What level are you starting at? +1 to needing Bard-7 ASAP, no non+essential dipping before that. If you're starting at high enough level the order doesn't matter so much, though.

For an arcane duelist dervish, I would suggest a fighter dip at lvl 2 (probably lore warden) to get your dervish dance with no delay could be essential, though.

However, is your character idea a devotee of Sarenrae? If that's not a core concept, then why not skip the dervish dance, use a rapier, and shop for an Agile rapier ASAP instead?

Agile rapier is a great idea, man!

Didnt know about that one - that is crazy cheap compared to the feat! And it allows to not take the fighter dip for scimitar proficiency and feat. :)

We are lvl4 right now and the GM suggested backup chars... but i am generally cool with having 2lvls before dervish kicks in.

-- I also agree on spring attack being pricy, so i might just go for lunge and save quite some feats.
-- I am still liking the lvl1 sorc + lvl1 wiz dips for the cool bloodline/school abilities. Yes I ll delay my bard stuff, but I am ok with losing some power for crazy versatility.
* Touch of laughter is super nice debuff to spam
* Forsight is just awesome all around (i think this outweights the bab-loss)
-- Spell failure could be very low as I ll stick with light mithral armor - no big issue for lvl1 tool spells

I rolled very nice stats which also helps dipping for fun - the bab loss doesnt hurt so bad (we play +1ability point per lvl); halfling:
Str: 11-2
Dex: 17+2 – lvl4 18+2
Con: 14
Int: 13 - lvl6 14
Wis: 9
Cha: 15+2 - lvl9 16+2


Bard (Arcane Duelist)
Traits: Armor Expert -1 armor pen; Magical Knack +2casterLvl for Dips;
Bard 1 Finesse
Bard 2 Combat casting (arcane duelist)
Bard 3 Dervish Dancer
Bard 5 Craft Wonderous Items
Dip1: Wiz1 Forsight (Scribe Scroll)
Dip2: Monk (saves+feat) or Fighter (feat+bab) Ranger (Fav Enemy+Wild Empathy+bab) or sorc crossblooded fey/elemental laughing touch, elemental energy resist +10
--lvl7 feat: mobility / (ftr or monk: bonus feat dodge)
Bard 6 Disruptive (arcane duelist) / Bladethirst (arcane duelist)
Bard 7 Spring Attack or mobility
Bard 9 Lunge
Bard 10 Spellbreaker (arcane duelist)
Bard 11 Spring attack (non ftr monk dip)

I think this could be lots of fun.
The dips could give me a ton of useful tool spells (cantrips + lvl1). Forsight is crazy useful - laughing touch maybe great even at high levels (no save) and resist energy is very nice to have. Using Magical Knack the 2 dips would come without CL loss for the main bard - slowing spell progression though.
In sum: tons of options (skills, spells (2-3x cantrips, 2-3x lvl1 spells, bloodline power, bardic performance, some fighting)

What do you guys think?

Edit: just noticed dervish dancer cant go with rapier - so i would need an early ftr or ranger dip for scimitar proficiency - guess i have to chose either sorc or wiz dip then :/
Edit2: Using Robe of arcane heritage for 3rd and 5th lvl bloodline power

Cheers


Thx guys!
Just wondered bcs the Arcane School Powers do work for both and I dont really see the difference.

But its fine as is - bcs otherwise one might argue my Magus has to wear the item for casting without concentration like the Wiz.


Sry to dig out this thread, but I wondered about the wizards arcane bond. Is it wizard spells only is it granted for any spell the multi-class magus/wiz has in his spell book(s)?

thx


hm - maybe I wrote it badly - so 2nd try:

I am playing a Magus and I want to take a Wizard level (Admixture) with arcane bond.
A couple questions arise:

1st:
Can I use the arcane bond for my Magus spells or is it limited to the wizard spells I get.
--> I d say the bond is for wizard spells only, but after reading the FAQ from Jason Bulmahn (see 1st post) I am no longer sure. It would be a nice boon to the generally gimpy caster multiclassing.

2nd:
Do all Wizard spells get spell failure from armor or just the ones that are not also on the Magus spell list? -- eg Do I cast shield with spell failure using a wizard spell slot?

3rd:
I dont have to write spells I want for both classes twice into a spellbook (1x magus, 1xwizard), do I?

4th:
Spells I have with both classes have different power depending on the spell slot I use - right? eg (magus lvl4/ wizard lvl1) - shocking grasp in magus slot 4d6, shocking grasp in wizard slot 1d6.

Thx in advance!
---
Its all a bit strange, but I guess its required to keep balance.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hi everyone,

Thinking about taking an Admixture-Wizard dip for my magus.

Am I right that the arcane bond item would be for the lvl-1 wiz-spells only? As I would also assume that I dont have to take a concentration check for my magus spells while not wearing the item.

FAQ wrote:

Sorcerer: Do the bonuses granted from Bloodline Arcana apply to all of the spells cast by the sorcerer, or just those cast from the sorcerer's spell list? (page 72 of the Core Rulebook)

"The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.

General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)

—Jason Bulmahn, 10/21/10"

Thx


two quick ideas:

- assasins to kill the party before the hearing (BBG fears the official hearing)
- someone (eg mysterious lady) frees the party and urges them to flee - she might know/tell them they wont get a fair hearing
---> this someone could also tipp them to find proof for BBG being the BBG during the night to publically reveal him during the hearing


Your comment is not very constructive.

Do you have a better reference? As far as I know that is the only one for definition of "poor visibility". And I dont see why this should not apply for combat/movement.


Gamemastering‎ > ‎Environment‎ > ‎Wilderness > Getting Lost:

Quote:

Poor Visibility

Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision.


Shimmergloom3k wrote:
Grick wrote:


It's backwards and confusing, but the result is correct.

He uses Spell Combat as a full-round action.

He casts Shocking Grasp, which grants him a free touch attack. He can A) roll a d20, making a melee touch attack to deliver the spell, or B) roll a d20, making a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.

If he does A and hits, he delivers the shocking grasp for 2d6. If he does B and hits, he deals weapon damage (1d8+2) and delivers the shocking grasp for 2d6.

That takes care of his casting a spell. Now he gets a full-attack. Since he's level 2, that means 1 attack with his sword. Roll a d20 for a melee attack with his sword. If he hits he deals weapon damage (1d8+2) and if he missed earlier, he also delivers the shocking grasp and deals 2d6.

So he rolls two attacks total. If he hits with both, for the entire round he deals 2d6+2d8+4 assuming no DR, resistance, etc.

What if the Magus in the above example missed with both the casting a spell and the full-attack? I'm guessing the Magus would go into the next round with the spell charge.

So if the he opted for just a full-attack and he hit, he would deliver the weapon damage and the shocking grasp damage (2d6+1d8+2).

But if he opted to take a full round for Spell Combat, used his full-attack and hit (delivering weapon/shocking damage), could he still then cast a spell (another Shocking Grasp) to use Spellstrike again in that same round?

If he could and he hit with both attacks for that round, he would be dealing 4d6+2d8+4 assuming no DR, resistance, etc.

Does that sound right?

Your wording is a little difficult to understand for me, but it seems to boil down to:

Can you full attack with a held charge and use spell combat to cast and deliver a touch spell by spellstrike.
--> The answer is yes! The possible dmg is very high for this combo.
But please note a couple of potential downfalls to it:
a) -2hit on all attacks
b) You lose held charges by casting again -> thus if you dont hit your first attack you lose your held charge. Not sure you could cancel casting to prevent this - If so you would lose the chance to cast, but had paid for it by -2hit on your normal attack.
c) you need to hit twice to make the full dmg


Thx for feedback Trismegistus and Banpai.

Would you two agree that the current rule (allowing spellcombat for attack+touch spell but not attack+charge delivery) is not very logic?


james maissen wrote:
CyderGnome wrote:


2) The Spellstrike magus class feature is only stated as working with the 1 free melee touch attack granted by casting the spell.

I don't read it that way, nor do many people as far as I know.

Spellstrike allows you to deliver touch spells via your weapon AND it lets you replace the free touch attack you get the round you cast such a spell with a free melee attack with that weapon.

You could hold a charge on a shocking grasp and 4 rounds later deliver it via your short sword as a magus, just as you could deliver it via an unarmed strike as anyone.

-James

This was discussed most recently in the several magus related threads. Please check them. One of the threads

I was convinced by Grick - that the wording "whenever a magus casts" is not about time, but to distinguish a spell cast compared to eg produced using a wand.
-> Thus you could always spellstrike a held charge.


Frenchfrie wrote:
i was reading on another thread that said spellstrike only counts the turn you cast the spell.... if thats so then chill touch would have to be used as if it where an off hand touch attack each round after the first as a standard action... this would make the spell worthless when placed beside shocking grasp; unless the target had er elec. but if like sub says above you get to use up as many charges as you can the first time you cast it on targets in range: does that mean you get to use spellstrike for all the attacks or just the first... i think that would be way over powered. Or does it mean you get to male one attack with spellstrike and the rest off handed

Touch spells grant ONE free attack.

You can touch one (unwilling) creature pre attack you got.
Using up a charge everytime you hit.
--> your initial assessment was correct.


submit2me wrote:
That's not how Chill Touch works. You cast it, then use it on x enemies per level that are within melee touch range of you. It doesn't last until the all of charges are spent. In fact, Chill Touch is one of those touch spells that isn't allowed to hold a charge past one round.

How come you think so?

iirc there are a couple of threads on this and most seemed to agree with what the OP suggests to be right.

Actually you can use it with each attack until you run out of charges.

To the OP: Yes I think you have that right. Also the -2hit seems valid in your examples. It applies to all attack in the round where you use spell combat - not in round you simply use spellstrike.


Ravingdork wrote:
Spellstrike is activated whenever you cast a melee touch spell. If you don't cast a spell that round, you can't use spellstrike. Pretty simple really.

wrong - check post above. The rules wording is meant to limit spellstrike to spells you cast compared to spells you got using eg a wand, but not to limit the use to the round of casting.


dartagnan4 wrote:

had that come up in my game, posted in the ask James Jacobs anything

"Spellstrike: The free attack is NOT an extra attack. It's a free attack you add on to spellcasting. Casting the spell still takes the normal amount of time—spellstrike just effectively adds the weapon attack as a part of the casting of the spell. Think of the attack as a somatic component if you will. So when he uses spellstrike, he does NOT get his full iterative attacks—his primary action in that round is the spellcasting, and normally that means he gets NO attacks. Spellstrike lets him make ONE attack as part of that spellcasting".

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=227?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here

Sry - this is very misleading. I read your question leading to this answer from JJ:

question wrote:


so basically level 8 magus two attacks +6/+1 uses spellstrike - does he get +6/+6 with spell/+1 or does he get +6 with spell/+1 (I think it is the latter but both sides have made compelling arguments)

This is not the topic and obviously wrong.

Spellstrike does not grant extra attacks, but replace a touch delivery by weapon delivery.

The topic asks, if both attack may deliver a charge via spellstrike.
Please check here:
FAQ thread

I further suggest reading the many posts from Grick on this topic.

Concerning the limitation to actually casting:

Grick from other thread wrote:


Talandor wrote:


As by RAW spellstrike does not allow its use for held charges but only when he actually casts - just as spell combat.

Spellstrike rule wrote:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

It is not limited to the round in which you cast the spell.

If you're a level 2 magus, and you cast Shocking Grasp, which is a spell with a range of touch, which is also on the magus spell list, you have fulfilled the three criteria for being able to deliver that spell through your weapon.

A wizard can cast Shocking Grasp, wait three turns, then deliver the spell.

A magus can do the same thing. In addition, since he fulfilled those three criteria (he cast it, rather than it coming from a wand, it has a range of touch, rather than a range of close or personal, and it was on the Magus spell list, rather than a cleric spell list) then he can still deliver the spell through his weapon.

If you cast the spell, then don't touch anything for three rounds, you still cast the spell, it still has a range of touch, and it's still on the magus spell list. Thus, you can use Spellstrike.

If the wording was different, a Magus could use Spellstrike with wands and scrolls and whatever other weirdness might crop up. This limits him to only spellstriking with spells he has personally cast.

The wording is not meant to limit to the casting, but to a spell that you cast yourself.


WRoy wrote:

This probably should have been posted in the House Rules board, which is where a lot of the confusion seems to be coming from.

My bad.

WRoy wrote:


Opinion of this as a house rule - There isn't really any need for it. Magi are powerful enough as a class and they already have enough action economy combining the RAW effects of spell combat and spellstrike. You can gain the free attack from a touch spell while making a full attack, and even if it misses you can do the same next round (attacking first to not waste the held charge).
The only time that RAW hurts action economy is if you're trying to use a multiple charge spell like chill touch, and even then you can spellstrike to full attack and append a chill touch charge to each hit. The minor hit to action economy you take with this spell is made up for by the efficiency of only using one spell slot for the entire process.

Good assessment - thx. I will probably skip it. I also got the feedback, that it would be quite a buff early and pretty pointless later. So yeah - dont want to unbalance the class just for the vibe.

It is still illogic to me, but I guess I ll survive it and save the trouble fighting balance for it.

Thx again to Grick, too. Very well explained. Your assessment explains the wording.


mplindustries wrote:

Wait, so you want to give the Magus a free touch when they cast the spell and when they have a held charge?

I think that is way too strong for the first few levels, and completely pointless and weak by the teens.

I think Magi are of a fine power level. Do you perceive some imbalance or weakness you're trying to compensate for, or is this just a, "Wouldn't this be awesome if my Magus kicked even more ass?!" thing?

I agree that there power level is fine. That is exactly why I am asking for opinions. It is for atmospheric reasons - i simply dont like the (un)logic and felt like there is no reason for it.

But I see your point of it being quite a buff early and pretty pointless later.


Jiggy wrote:

Then it sounds like your question is more for your own GM than for the rules boards.

If you go purely by the book, then a magus who has a spare charge sitting around could try doing Spell Combat, attack with his sword first (and if he hits, discharge the spell), and then cast a new spell (replacing the old one if he didn't discharge it on his normal attack). Alternatively, he could simply use standard TWF rules to attack with the sword in one hand and the charge in the other (probably wanting to attack with the charge first).

If your question is "but would it be alright if we did X instead?" then, well, none of us here can give you "permission" to do things differently in your game. No matter what we say here, it's still up to your GM to decide whether or not to make that tweak.

Please read OP - i know RAW is clear no.

But you could have an opinion on it being powerful or just a minor tweak, which might help me decide.
And I still think this could be RAI - again compare chill touch and spellstrike. It seems to be common understanding that spellstrike is meant to allow for charges. Not sure why this should not hold true for spell combat. --> In this case an offical statement would be great.


mplindustries wrote:
Talandor wrote:
e) off-hand: d6+4 +2d6 + main: d6+4 = 4d6+8 (need to hit twice at -2 both vs armor - not using up another spell)

Where is 1d6+4 damage coming from on your off-hand? You explicitly need a free hand to use Spell Combat.

Spellstrike gives the d6+4 on the off-hand (+2d6 spell).

My suggestion is exactly to count the held charge as "spell being cast" for allowing spell combat.

mplindustries wrote:
though you'd need the Two Weapon fighting feat.

My suggestion is to interpret spell combat to be Magus' two-weapon-fighting feat and extend it from "spell being cast" to "or charge held".


Jiggy wrote:

Seriously people, listen to Grick. He's very very very rarely wrong.

I dont feel like disagreeing with Grick at all. I share his opinions on all spellstrike/spell combat questions I have read. I further appriciate that his answers are often the ones most clear in these.

I am simply curious about his (and community in general) thoughts on allowing to stretch spell combat rule for held charges.
I dont feel like buffing the magus, but feel like the rule would be more consistent allowing charges as well.
Till now it seems like a reasonably small buff to allow it.
And I still think charges have been overlooked for spell combat and spellstrike.


Grick wrote:
Talandor wrote:
Grick wrote:

It's casting the spell that gives you the extra attack. If you don't cast a spell that gives you the extra attack, then you don't get an extra attack.

Not quite - spell combat is giving the extra attack in exchange for a -2hit just as TWF, but limited to a spell being cast.

Spellstriking the charge is a different matter.

Wrong.

A level 2 magus making a full attack without two weapons can make one attack. He only rolls one d20 for his entire turn.

If he uses Spell Combat, casts Shield, then makes his full attack, he is only making one attack. He only rolls one d20 for his entire turn.

No discussion here. I was simply not precise and counted extra "spell" as attack - not meaning a weapon strike.

Anyway I get an additional action being a spell by spell combat and not by casting the spell.

It remains logic to me, that if spell combat allows me to cast a touch spell and use the delivery granted by it that I can also simply deliver it as part of spell combat.

Is it not the same argumentation you use for allowing to spellstrike a held charge (eg chill touch)?
As by RAW spellstrike does not allow its use for held charges but only when he actually casts - just as spell combat.

Spellstrike rule wrote:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.


Grick wrote:

It's casting the spell that gives you the extra attack. If you don't cast a spell that gives you the extra attack, then you don't get an extra attack.

Not quite - spell combat is giving the extra attack in exchange for a -2hit just as TWF, but limited to a spell being cast.

Spellstriking the charge is a different matter.

Grick wrote:


Basically you're asking that the Magus gets the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free. I don't think many people will be in favor of this, but if you have an underpowered magus in your game, I guess this wouldn't really hurt.

I basically do. However limited to off-hand being a spell charge. Which seems within the idea of spell combat for me.


Pickguy wrote:
would be able to make two melee attacks and cast a spell in each round, using Spellstrike.

Not quite! Note the spell must be a touch spell to grant the 2nd attack.

Magus do also not have too many spells per day limiting this, but may use arcane mark.

Pickguy wrote:
So a longsword user casting on the second attack would have +1/+1 melee attacks. On a hit, and assuming the Magus cast something like Shocking grasp at caster level 2, he would then damage the target for 2d8 + 2d6 + 4 per round. Is this correct?

Yes correct - this is however the maximum assuming both strikes hit and the guy does not run out of spells.

Other limitations to note: Casting does provoke AoO! He can circumvent this by 5ft step, but probably not every round - eg not if he is next to an opponent at the start of his turn. He does not get his 2nd attack if he fails on casting defensive.

edit: too slow


mplindustries wrote:

e+f) 3d6+4 (though you need to hit twice, each at a -2)

Not correct:

e) off-hand: d6+4 +2d6 + main: d6+4 = 4d6+8 (need to hit twice at -2 both vs armor - not using up another spell)
f) off-hand: +2d6 + main: d6+4 = 3d6+4 (need to hit twice at -2 but one vs touch and one vs armored - not using up another spell)

e vs b - more max dmg possible
f vs b - better chance to do some dmg (hit once; hit the touch) - same max dmg

As I said:
I dont think its broken, but it can be beneficial. And its logic (why c but not e+f).

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