So I'm about to start running a game every other weekend with a party that so far consists of an Alchemist, a Gunslinger and a Wizard/Ranger working his way into Arcane Archer, and we may get a 4th but I have no idea what they'll be playing. I've never really ran a game with all ranged combatant types so I guess my question is how often do I throw a melee guy at them?
There are plenty of things that counter ranged combat early on. Concealment works far better on ranged attacks than melee ones, and blur is only a second level spell. Invisiblity is hard to detect at low levels. And there are plenty of fast, mobile classes that can give your pc's trouble (mounted enemies, monks, and my favorite spirit totem barbarians, who are raging blur machines)
Depends on how you look at it.
How often would I throw melee at them? As often as I throw them at anyone. My enemies are often balanced, and often work together. They have an assortment of ranged, melee, and magical abilities. I don't tailor them to the groups strength or weakness specifically, though I do avoid making unwinnable combats. (swarms with absolutely no one who can damage them or whatever)
They will adapt, or they will explode, and then adapt :)
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Wind Wall. Wind Wall EVERYWHERE.
Followed by barbarians. EVERYWHERE.
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I prefer to run things objectively. PCs that are strong or weak against certain enemies don't cause a quantum shift to alter the enemies. For example, my entire party was made of a rogue and archer and a bard. All skill monkey sneaky personable types. They did not do well in combat since they rarely flanked anything.
At the same time, the rogue later got two kukris and and had that critical feat to double the range. I had already planned a fight with some creatures that were automatically killed on a critical hit . It still happened.
The point is, there are some things all-ranged teams don't like. Grappling, likely. Sometimes enemies grapple. Especially big dumb ones. But don't make everything grapple. Sure, they'll breeze through some things, but others will be nearly impossible for them. Let it happen. That's how it would happen if they were IRL.
No healer (Ok the alchemist can heal a bit, depending), no tank, no skillmonkey? It’s time to explain to your players the 4 primary roles. Explain that many encounters are such that all 4 roles are needed. Then, let them go ahead if they like, do normal encounters- normal of course including a special encounter for each PC where they can really shine. But other than some minor changing of loot type, don’t change.
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Removed a post. Don't use the term "rape" like that.
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I would argue it is the partys job to adapt to the challenges you throw at them, not the other way round.
Just in life, if something isn't working then you need to adapt to it. If they aren't willing to adapt, then you have a problem.
No healer (Ok the alchemist can heal a bit, depending), no tank, no skillmonkey? It’s time to explain to your players the 4 primary roles. Explain that many encounters are such that all 4 roles are needed. Then, let them go ahead if they like, do normal encounters- normal of course including a special encounter for each PC where they can really shine. But other than some minor changing of loot type, don’t change.
The alchemist can be a decent skillmonkey with the right selection of extracts. That being said, I wouldn't pull any push against an all-ranged party and all enemies I throw at them would use combat maneuvres without fear of provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
As often as normal, Though I would probably house rule point blank master to allow non fighters to take it.
As a DM, it's your job to challenge the party appropriately. I guess if you want you can try to teach them a lesson about party composition, but unless you're training for the Pathfinder olympics, I'd rather just let people play what they want to play run encounters that will be the most fun for everyone. I trust your players are smart enough to know that their party is a little goofy. I don't really see the benefit in going all "I'll teach you to play what you want instead of a maximally effective composition!"
There's going to be things that they're better at than conventional parties, and there's going to be things - a fair number of them - that they're worse at. There may be a little trial and error as you figure out what sort of monster compositions and abilities make things harder or easier in ways that are cool, fun, and memorable, and what sort of compositions just make things frustrating or boring. You "should" throw a melee guy at them as often as maximizes how interesting the encounters are, which I'm guessing is fairly often. It's fine (and good!) for them to be a little scared of things they can't handle well, but you may have to tailor encounters or battle spaces a bit.
The real risk, especially if the last guy decides to be a blaster sorcerer or something, is that the players may feel like they're stepping on each other's toes, and that they're not really contributing to the party. That's the oft-ignored but just-as-important reason that parties should try to fill different roles; it lets the players feel like they're more special since they're contributing in a more unique way.
Thanks for all the responses. I definitely agree with you Joyd about people stepping on each others toes. I haven't sat down to look at characters with the party yet (we're starting Sunday) but based on the Alchemist asking about a feat that lets him drink a potion as a move action if he starts the turn with it in his hand, he may be doing a more melee focused Alchemist. I'm still unsure though as he could just be preparing for an encounter with melee combatants.
I do generally make NPC's work off of each other though so having an all ranged party fighting a standard party should be interesting to see. I'll just hope I can get 1-2 more players that can fill the melee roles, maybe we'll get lucky and get an Oracle of Battle (or Metal) and a Rogue that both want to be in melee :P
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It's not a bad problem; only in dungeons does it vary (dungeons actually allow tanks to shine; as they can create "choke points" where enemies can't get by).
In fact, less needs to be compensated than a mostly-melee party. Dragons can fly at full power with no fear of overpowering the party. Same with flying mages. The party will continually be 5 foot stepping, and taking AOOs if they get surrounded, but it works fine. And this happens anyway in outdoor fights.
In short, just play it like you're fighting a normal party :).
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I would just make sure you sit down with the players--if you haven't ready of course--and note, "Hey, most of you have ranged expertise. A lot of adventures are going to involve bad guys trying to get in toe to toe with you, and you will want to think about what tactics you are going to use if you end up in close quarters. I have no interest in screwing you over, and I will definitely make sure everyone has their moment to shine, but I am also not going to start every fight from 180 feet away--the encounters need to make sense for the story."
As long as they are aware that some situations are not going to be best suited toward their skillset, they should be ready to have a plan B(ash away) when plan A(rcher) doesn't work like it's supposed to. You noted the Alchemist can do melee stuff, and I would encourage the Arcane Archer to be sure he's got some summoning and battle control spells and other things that will help them when the situation isn't ideal for shooting things.
And especially if 4th player comes along with a decent tank or stabby guy, then there's probably little to worry about as long as they play well together with good tactics.
Another thing you should keep in mind is concealment.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness.
This is true for melee as well as ranged combat, but any target further than 20' from a torch (40' with low-light vision) has a 20% miss chance. This especially comes into play at lower levels before Improved Precise Shot becomes available.
I would just make sure you sit down with the players--if you haven't ready of course--and note, "Hey, most of you have ranged expertise. A lot of adventures are going to involve bad guys trying to get in toe to toe with you, and you will want to think about what tactics you are going to use if you end up in close quarters. I have no interest in screwing you over, and I will definitely make sure everyone has their moment to shine, but I am also not going to start every fight from 180 feet away--the encounters need to make sense for the story."
I would add to this a statement that they may have to come up with different ideas for adventuring than exploring cramped dungeons and other places where ranged combat is difficult. It sounds like the group would be well-suited for a lot of outdoor adventuring instead.
GM adapts to players
Im currently running to an all wizard party!
arcane bond only so no familiars
Harry Potter from grown-ups!
lots of fun and good to set up new challenges and ways to use things like spellcraft, concentration etc
no skill monkeys, tanks or healers.
thus far they are thriving, and thinking of new ways to use old spells and such
I would add to this a statement that they may have to come up with different ideas for adventuring than exploring cramped dungeons and other places where ranged combat is difficult. It sounds like the group would be well-suited for a lot of outdoor adventuring instead.I would just make sure you sit down with the players--if you haven't ready of course--and note, "Hey, most of you have ranged expertise. A lot of adventures are going to involve bad guys trying to get in toe to toe with you, and you will want to think about what tactics you are going to use if you end up in close quarters. I have no interest in screwing you over, and I will definitely make sure everyone has their moment to shine, but I am also not going to start every fight from 180 feet away--the encounters need to make sense for the story."
Ya I had planned on sitting everyone down to let them know that there will probably be some situations when there are multiple melee combatants and that they'll need to think about what to do in those situations, I think everyone has some sort of back up plan though. The Arcane Archer and Gunslinger are both proficient with martial weapons so I'm sure they'll both be carrying something other than a dagger and club and then the Alchemist will most likely drink a mutagen and go hulk on people. I'm not going to overwhelm them with strictly melee enemies though, that would be something I only did on a rare occassion to kind of keep them on their toes.
GM adapts to players
Im currently running to an all wizard party!
arcane bond only so no familiars
Harry Potter from grown-ups!lots of fun and good to set up new challenges and ways to use things like spellcraft, concentration etc
no skill monkeys, tanks or healers.
thus far they are thriving, and thinking of new ways to use old spells and such
How do they heal?
It really does come down to your GM philosophy. Do you want to tailor encounters for the group or is having a group that is great at some things and has a tougher times with others fun when they have to overcome those issues they aren't as good at?
For my vote, I would say don't customize your encounters to them. If they want to play an all ranged party, that is fine, but they need to be aware this will make some situations tougher and others easier.
As their GM I would talk to them, let them know that you see this weakness and ask if they are comfortable accepting that challenge. If so, great. If not, ask them what they want to do about it.
Sean
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If they do stay very ranged, I have a piece of quick advice from my Kingmaker game:
Read up on perception rules. USe them well. Work on how you will deal with long range battles begun while the parties are over 100' apart.
I have a player character with a +32 perception modifier. He will detect combat 400+ feet out. finding good shorthand ways to deal with this can be very helpful.
I want to see the single alchemist build that can do ranged attacks, tank, heal and be a skill monkey, all at once. ;-)
How do they heal?GM adapts to players
Im currently running to an all wizard party!
arcane bond only so no familiars
Harry Potter from grown-ups!lots of fun and good to set up new challenges and ways to use things like spellcraft, concentration etc
no skill monkeys, tanks or healers.
thus far they are thriving, and thinking of new ways to use old spells and such
Well, considering "no healers" was said, one would assume potions, wands, or "they don't".
The Gamemastery Guide specifically includes advice about no-healer parties, and it's hardly impossible to play one, even without GM adjustment to the game. The players just have to think more and make smarter decisions, that's all.
one of them can UMD with a wand
otherwise potions
having 5 wizards you know after round 1 whether you have won or not....glitterdust, a few summoned beasties, ray of enfeebles, AND they can also quickly realize what resources they need to finish off enemies
and as Gluttony says. You think different
...and even if they think dull, at 3rd level getting hit by 5 x 2d4+2 magic missiles can ruin most bad guys day...
PF wizards have lots of tricks and resources