Kazaven

Shah Jahan the King of Kings's page

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FrozenLaughs wrote:

So I have an Npc that is building and selling "impenetrable" safes, from which her very first production was robbed from. (The irony, right?) She then hires the group to hunt down the thief and return her clients valuables.

So here's what I have laid out in the design:

1. She crafts an Adamantine case, the size of a typical door (this can totally vary though) but only a foot or so deep. She crafts a Lead lined interior with a matching door. Making it relatively impossible for the average thief to penetrate or see inside of.

2. In the process of creation, she creates an Extradimensional Space inside, like a BoH.

3. After creation, inside the Extradimensional space she casts Forbiddance, with a password for the owner. This prevents any teleportation, ethereal, astral or summoning shenanigans to get inside the safe.

4. She installs in the door a superior lock with Arcane Lock enchantment, for a DC50. Disabling becomes extremely difficult for all but the best.

5. She casts Invisibility on it. It is now much more difficult to see/detect for the average thief.

6. She casts Permanency.

Now... This is where things get questionable...

7. She casts Animate Object on the safe, turning it into a Creature. She orders it to remain perfectly inert, but to attack anyone attempting to open it without both speaking the Forbiddance password, and using the correct key.

8. Again, she casts Permanency.

9. She casts Mind Blank on the (now a creature) safe, preventing it from being detected by any kind of Divination magic or any spell attempting to gain information about it.

10. Again, she makes it Permanent.

Now, (completely ignoring the costs/requirements of said creation) here's the most questionable part...

(?) She begins reproducing Simulacrum versions of her real (Construct) safe, and selling those for her profit.

*Can you Simulacrum a Construct Creature? It is, by definition, a Creature?
*Is making it permanently Invisible as an object moot once it becomes Animated? Or:...

Is there any way she can place a Contingency spell or two on it, to have it teleport elsewhere instead of attacking and/or cast disintegrate when tampered with? Also, a levitation ability so that it doesn't shift around and make noise on the ground?


OilHorse wrote:

Level 4 spell.

Full Round casting time

2-5 Targets

After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).

On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.

So the spell takes a full round and thus is easier to disrupt, then takes 2 more rounds to fully take effect, and can only be used in the outdoors with no tree cover.

but

does a tonne of damage, has no resistances against it and is autohit with no save.

Critiques?

Beyond how powerful it is in combat, which has been mentioned, also consider the outside effects.

The party needs to infiltrate a castle? Well, 18 seconds from now it will be less infiltration and more sifting through rubble.


When in doubt, utilize loss. If you want to intimidate them, I would schedule it over a few sessions where the enemy finds ways to slowly dismantle their resources. Maybe hires cutpurses to steal their gold, mishaps that damage their equipment. Hire weak assassins to pick at them, spread lies that make their old allies distrust them. Make them feel on edge and alone.

The best encounter I've had involved a small town with an old legend of the Golden Apple. For the last few sessions, we had dealt with a rogue-type man named the Broker. He would set up shop in a tavern and sell information, which had proven reliable and helpful earlier on. We took on the quest from a mages guild searching for the golden apple, and when we asked the Broker he told us it's resting place. He also informed us that it could be weaponized, so we should be careful of who we give it to. We go through a dungeon, fight a young dragon, get the apple, and go back to town to decide what to do with it.

Whatever the situation was, and foul play is suspected, the town guard were looking for us with weapons drawn. We defended ourselves the best we could, and started making diplomacy checks to try to talk them down. As it turns out, the Broker was actually a high-level mind flayer caster who was trying to mess with our GMPC. The Broker destroys the town in a blazing inferno, takes the apple while we are all downed, and eats it, explaining that it is just an apple with a thin skin of gold. The mages guild wanted to cultivate the apple to grow small amounts of gold.

After this, we were wounded, without most of our supplies and the entire country thought we were responsible for destroying a peaceful town. This resulted in a stint in a dungeon, an escape, and a hasty teleportation to our home country (without our equipment, which we had to leave behind in the prison.)


Ravingdork wrote:

If you make a lead box invisible, can detect magic detect the illusion, or does the lead block it? If I were standing inside the invisible lead box, could people outside of it see me? Could their divinations detect me?

Why or why not?

I might rule that lead can't be affected by non-instantaneous spells, as lead often blocks magic from traveling through it. This implies that lead itself has antimagic properties, at least to some degree.

But if the lead box were invisible, see invisibility would allow you to see it as the effect terminates at the lead, at the very least. Likewise with an illusion- You can't see any illusions inside of the lead, as the lead blocks the spell, but the outside of the illusion would be visible as you aren't looking or scrying or detecting through lead yet.

Divinations don't typically work through lead, regardless of what is going on in or around the lead.


Troubleshooter wrote:

Hahah. Could PCs cast negate aroma to cut them off from their source of power?

That would be interesting.

I think if any of them had it, I would allow it. That's being clever, and I support that.


Oh, I should have mentioned this earlier, but I was a bit tired- They're allied with a tribe of humans and half elves who are mostly druids, third level average. There will be about 30 combatant spread out over a small walled city, and the bulk of the ants live inside a cave behind the city. The ants act as companions for the druidic tribe and extend into the city.

Given that they are neutral good, most of their spells will be aimed at healing and buffing their druid allies.

They will likely not have many damaging or harmful spells. Constricting Coils seems the only relevant damaging spell I would put on them- The rest have a sense of evil or cruel that the colony would not use. Holy ice also seems to be a possibility, but they would likely use it to create a wall rather than attack.

This said, I am aware of the possibility for extreme damage should the party face the entire colony at once, but I would like to foreshadow this and make them use tactics if they decide to attack the city at all. I would like the encounter to feel like they are attacking a very powerful but also very limited being, with weaknesses that can be easily exploited. I want an assault on the city to give the vibe that the ants are trying to defend, and are best suited to being all curled up in a defensive ball rather than work as a mobile offensive, if that makes sense. By making them strong in numbers but weak alone, I feel it demonstrates that they are community focused.

(If you're interested, the RP situation is that, due to an unfortunate circumstance, the party is now tangled up in a slave trading company who wants to take the previously-nomadic villagers, who have recently established a small city by working with this sentient ant colony. The party is secretly working for the city guard in an attempt to arrest the slavers, but the party has to gather evidence by going on a slaving run. The party has the option of fighting with the slavers to capture the natives, which requires eliminating their new allies, or joining the natives to fend off the slavers. The rewards are also heavily weighed in the favor of working with the slaving company, which makes for some tough moral decisions. Go for the wealth because it's wealth? Work with the slavers to get them arrested through proper legal channels, and get rich as a bi product? Join the rebel cause and say no to slavery for no reward but the good karma?)

@ the david- It's not a swarm as it doesn't use a swarm template. They are giant ants, but each ant acts like a cluster of neurons in a brain. For fluff, I'm saying that the actual action is based on pheromonal communication, which has evolved to express a single consciousness rather than just basic messages to the rest of the colony. All of the ants thinking and expressing their thoughts as pheromones at once has developed into a mind.


Twilight Sparkle is best wizard


So, I'm planning a unique encounter for an RP based campaign. The idea is an ant colony which has gained sentience through a hivemind system- This colony has evolved in a way where each ant acts as a cell for the single "creature", which is the colony as a whole. The colony has, within the last few months, grown large enough to become sentient. It is Neutral Good aligned, but allied with a group which could possibly put the colony at odds with the party. The party will be around level 7.

Mechanically, I would like it to be a caster. I believe it should be a cleric to best demonstrate that it works based on spirit. It is not so much learning arcane magic as it is learning to tap into natural powers around it. I want it to be expressed like this- Each ant can cast any of the spells per day of the colony, which removes that spell from the spells per day list. Functionally, each ant is an arm capable of independent casting, but the spell pool is divided up among the entire group.

Each ant should also be relatively weak, capable of being killed in one hit by most players at level 7. The colony "dies" when a certain number of ants have been killed, which puts them below the threshold for sentience and causes them to retreat and defend themselves underground like normal ants. I'm thinking the number should be around 50 so it has a sense of wiping out large numbers and taking a chunk out of what is essentially the colony's brain. I'd also like to do a Hal-9000 thing, "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do" and all that. (I'm a fan of making players feel their moral choices)

So, my question is this- What kind of CR would an encounter like this be? They are all spellcasters, but their spell pool is shared. They are also pretty weak individually. If I were to make this a 10th or 12th level cleric, would the frailty of the individual members counteract the level difference?


I would say the entire Abyss. If my cosmology is correct, Asmodeus and hell in general are in a war of attrition with the demons of the abyss. While the abyss has power in numbers and similar might, Hell is more ordered. The Abyss is too busy infighting to form an effective attack against Hell due to their chaotic nature.

Though Asmodeus is kind of the biggest bad guy out there- He was cast out of the upper planes after pissing off the entire good community, and he survived. He is a master tactician and manipulator. If I include asmodeus, he is going to win in the end. He did it at the dawn of time, and he's only gained experience since then.

Hell, if I wanted a real world-shaping story, I might have a new force in the Abyss gathering demons and getting them ordered for an attack on Hell. The demons, in the end, would use their numbers and new sense of focus to overrun Hell and "kill" asmodeus. Here's the hook- Asmodeus himself ordered the demons, and in doing so slowly inoculated them with Law, sacrificing his smaller kingdom to transform the Abyss into his new Hell.


I play with a friend who takes the rules... loosely. To him, a natural 20 is not only an automatic success, but a spectacular one. Even on skill checks. Or ad-hoc whatevers. For example, he brags about how one time, when the party was facing a dragon, someone said "I want a chihuahua to bite the head off of the dragon". The player was not only allowed a roll, but succeeded on a nat 20. He wasn't DMing this encounter, but the unfortunate debacle stained his concept of how rolling for stuff works.

In combat, two nat 20's in a row is an automatic kill on any target.

Now, commoners have a 5% chance to jump into outer space if that's what they're trying to do. One in twenty toddlers can con the castle out from under a king. I keep trying to explain to him how this is not only congruent with reality, but not fun either. Hopefully I'll be able to get through to him.


I wouldn't have done the long-term care. I'd have done a heal check, slapped a jury-rigged bandage on it and told him to sleep it off. Sort of a "Feel that? That's what a mistake in the field feels like. Learn from it."


NineHostages wrote:
littlehewy wrote:

- Don't assume they will understand clues.

- Don't assume they will make their skill checks.
- Don't assume they won't figure everything out quicker than you anticipated.
- Don't assume they will fail at something.
- Don't assume they will care about a cool backstory for your adventure/NPCs.
- Don't assume they won't retreat.
- Don't assume they will retreat!
- Don't assume they will like or hate someone they're supposed to.
Thanks! Those are very helpful actually, I'm trying to put together an investigative/roleplaying heavy story. Here's a much more specific question. Do any of you find the inclusion of NPC quoted text annoying? I find myself doing that a lot, and because I have lots of weird, grotesque characters I feel like it's necessary to evoke their personalities and quirks.

Imagine the absolute dumbest conclusion your PC's could possibly come to from one of your clues. Now, drink heavily and inflict massive blunt trauma to your head and imagine the dumbest conclusion in this state. Now imagine that your PC's are about seven levels of stupid below this. That is what they will do.

My PC's are bright people, they aren't stupid. But toss a simple clue in front of them, and by the nine divines. Immediately, one will take it at overly simple face value. They find pilfered library books at a cultist's meeting? "They must have rented them." - Dead end.

Next, there will be someone who wants to sell them. "They're not worth much. The library would probably be happy to see them returned, though, hint hint, it might be a small plot point."

Then, one or all of them will make a wild assumption and possibly begin infighting. "It was totally the blacksmith. I talked to him for like, 10 seconds buying my sword, but he did have weapons that kill people, and so do cultists..." most likely leading them to kill the poor blacksmith in his sleep once they're convinced he's seeking revenge for the death of his cult buddies, and get them chased out of town or killed by the guard.


Kazarath wrote:

I am simply going to ignore those people calling me a petulant child.

My character was going to be a serpentfolk alchemist who had 'defected' away from Ydersius, seeing him as the cause of his race's downfall. I even went into great philosophical detail about it, which I could post if people are interested (judging from the previous responses, I'd say that's unlikely). I even used the race builder to stat it up, lowering the stats and abilities vastly while still remaining true to the original. Of course he didn't even look at it. I could even post the build if people are interested, but I have a feeling that's not going to help my image seeing as some people have already decided it was my fault.

I would also like to point out I started this thread to think of character ideas, and only posted the whole rant because the anger at those two particular individuals had been building up for months. I was just hoping for a place to vent without being judged.

EDIT: Redacted a few things. Said some stuff I didn't mean. I apologize, been dealing with some issues lately.

I had the same issue when I wanted to play an ogrillon with the stats of a half-orc. Try persistence and logic. Eventually, that worked for me. And it made for interesting debates. At one point, we got into an argument in which I proved that a horse has a higher expected value in damage per round than a bear.


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From what I hear, marketing departments essentially kill games. I wouldn't be surprised if suits from Fox bungled up the whole process, and forced terrible decisions. "We need to really sell the aliens. Turn up the lights so they can see our trademarked image!"

"We need to cater to fanboys. Add more mech segments."

"Why is this programming budget so high? We have margins to meet, people. We're cutting from somewhere. What isn't done yet? AI? Axe it."


Wait until they screw something up, and have a devil sell the solution. They get caught up in a situation that has the guard after them? Once they duck into a corner, a devil appears telling them he can make it all go away.

I often play with a self-defined "treasure hunter", so simply dangling shiny items in front of him is usually enough. I like the idea of a devil looking to drop off a Fingerbone of Fickle Fortune to mess with mortals, for example.


Nope. You're not being watched by the alignment system, you are the alignment system. YOU know. It's kind of a quantum thing- You are included as an observer. If you don't know you did something, and nobody knows you did something, then you effectively did nothing. Keep in mind, in pathfinder, there are souls. So even if you kill someone instantly without them knowing at the time, their soul can still be like "Hey, that happened."

Plus, truenames. The multiverse itself is aware of your actions, detectable to gods or mortals or not. To become undetectable to the multiverse would be to cease to exist.

Point being, the alignment system isn't based on something knowing you did something, it's based on what you are after you have done something, internally.


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I think I saw this one in a third party book somewhere, but it's worth bringing up.

There is no inherent cost, but it will likely require a rather dangerous quest. You must find rust monsters. More specifically, you must find rust monster larva, and put them inside a glass tube which can be opened on one side, with glass grating to prevent the larva from escaping.

Simply press this side to any metal surface, and you will have a hole. Good for cracking safes, making peepholes in fortresses, et cetera.


Long ago, in the days of 3.5, Charisma used to be a relevant statistic which was an inherent part of a character. It was the force of personality, the "spirit" of a character, the part of a character that made it self-aware and able to distinguish itself from its surroundings. Like every other statistic, is was something that determined if a being was alive or able to change its environment- Strength to exert force, dexterity to move oneself, constitution to have tangible form, wisdom to have understanding, intelligence to be capable of learning, and charisma to be self-aware. Without any one of these, a being was dead, undead or inanimate.

Pathfinder dumbed it down to "How good you look and how people think of you", and messed up many facets of the game-feel. From this instance to animals apparently just being ugly.


Well, the sorcerer would gain spells- Just more spells known and per day for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells.

And I do agree- I hope this is how it works. It would be to my benefit if it does work the way it is assumed to work. I'm just looking for solid RAW to show my DM so he has evidence too.


While it does say that, it is also true that it says that for LOREMASTER you gain spells as THOUGH you had gained a level in your previous caster class- Your caster class, however, is still at the same level it was before. And this is all well and good as long as you keep leveling loremaster. The wording becomes sketchy when you go back to your original casting class, because now you have a level 5 sorcerer adding potentially 7th, 8th or 9th level spells. While your CHARACTER level supports this, you gained a level as a sorcerer, and a 5th level sorcerer gains... Not that.


Yes, I'm well aware of that. But what happens to my spells known and spells per day list when I go from Arcane Trickster back to Sorcerer? I have the spells of a 6th level sorcerer when I'm 5 sorc and 1 AT. So what happens when I become 6 sorc and 1 AT? Do I have the spells of a 7th level sorcerer? While I gain spells known and daily as though I had gained a level of sorcerer, I didn't actually gain a level of sorcerer. So it could make sense that when I gain a level as sorcerer from 5 to 6, I gain spells as a 6th level sorcerer.

Either way, any RAW on the subject?


Is there any RAW for this? My DM isn't sure about what happens when I go from arcane trickster back to sorcerer, and really, neither am I. Having a source would be great.


I have a question regarding the gaining of spells per day through prestige classes.

Say I wanted to make an Arcane Trickster as a sorcerer, for example. When I level up, I gain spells per day as though I had gained a level as a sorcerer. I get that. What if, after going arcane trickester for a bit, I dipped back into sorcerer? Would I continue my sorcerer spell progression from where I left off as a sorcerer, or where I left off as an arcane trickester?

For example, I would be 4 sorcerer, and say 5 Arcane Trickster, making my effective sorcerer spell list that of a level 9 sorcerer. Next level I put into sorcerer. Do I gain spells as a 5th level sorcerer (Thereby just adding 1 to my first, second and third level spells known/per day or a 10th level sorcerer?


thejeff wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
I think it's absurd for the dumpstat meatshield to be able to have a concept of metaphysics and have the capacity to name over 150 specific spells and their effects at will, when he is barely skillful enough to find food laying around outside AND hear things at the same time.

Whereas I think it's quite reasonable for the clever fighter to have a pretty good idea what his companion spellcasters are capable of and something of what they expect their enemies to be capable off and to have picked up some of the names they use for their spells, while still not having studied the practice and metaphysics of magic enough to recognize a spell from the casting gestures or be able to identify magic items.

IOW, I don't think the names of spells and rough knowledge of what they can do falls under Spellcraft, because that brings too much other more useful stuff along with it. Since there isn't any other more appropriate skill and it simplifies play, I'd say spells are common knowledge.

Clever fighter, sure. But cleverness implies... cleverness. The clever fighter does magic research. The superstitious orc barbarian hits things with his fists or club.

Also, why could they NOT identify magic items that replicate spell effects? If they know spells and spell effects as it is, they should also know of the existence of magic items that use those same effects. If they know of the magic items and what they do, seeing one should be enough to jog their memory.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

The entire concept of the existence of wands, potions and staffs which can be purchased at magic shops necessitates a common magical lexicon. It would be absurd to think that purchasing a scroll goes something like this:

"Hey, I'm looking for a scroll of that spell that makes a big billowing cloud."

"Ah, you must mean 'obfuscating acidic degradation'! Right over here."

"Um... 'acidic'? I don't think that's right, I don't remember any acidic whatever... it was more of a people dropping to the ground thing."

"Oho! That's quite different my friend. Now you must be speaking of 'bronchial occluding manifestation'!"

"What? I don't know, does that kill people?"

"Kill people! Why didn't you say you wanted a lethal version... Wait a minute... I think that's a more rare spell.... something like 'suffocating calciferous pall' I think.... do you remember what color the fog was?"

I mean geebuz people.

That's not the point. See my post earlier about how "common knowledge" doesn't mean "everyone knows it" or even "most people know it". It just means the information isn't too hard to come by. But again, name the things listed. Name 20 stars. 50 sports players. 30 car models. Just because you CAN know it, or temporarily find out when it's necessary, doesn't mean you DO know it currently.

I think it's absurd for the dumpstat meatshield to be able to have a concept of metaphysics and have the capacity to name over 150 specific spells and their effects at will, when he is barely skillful enough to find food laying around outside AND hear things at the same time.


The non-lethal damage is an effect of Merciful. ALL damage the weapon deals becomes non-lethal. It overrides the effects of Deadly. Beyond this, a weapon with the Deadly trait only apply to weapons that are NORMALLY nonlethal. Swords are not NORMALLY non-lethal. You could probably put Deadly on a whip, and then put merciful over that, but then you'd just have a regular whip that deals an extra 1D6 nonlethal damage.


The rules I recall state that a grapple isn't necessarily a wrestle, it's any action that uses your body to hinder an opponent. A leg hold would be a grapple. Grabbing a person's arm to keep them from leaving is a grapple.

That said, if you have a saw on you, you can get two free hands from any humanoid corpse.


It's not even a matter of misunderstanding, really. It's a matter of "how common knowledge are specific spells and their effects?" People name things, true. Everyone has bones. Name seventy of them. Everyone has seen a car. Name fifty of them. Everyone has heard of sports. Could you match 50 names with 50 faces? Everyone knows about stars. Name twenty. Don't actually do that. Though if you try it, don't use google. Just a general knowledge roll. My point is, sure, the spells may be common knowledge, but common knowledge tends to be just that- Very common.

And I didn't mean RP options as in "Whizbang's Derpmaker? I call it Enervation!" I mean RP options as in, a character has no concept of what he wants or needs. If you're not good with vehicles, imagine going to an auto dealership. You have to more or less take them on their word that what you are looking at is a somewhat decent deal, that the things included and the parts are the kind you want. You can do some research, sure, but there is still a lot you don't know going in. That's the kind of RP I'm talking about.

Your dumb barbarian hulks into the store and essentially has to trust the shopkeep for a good deal, or bring along a rogue with apraise and identify, or a caster friend who actually knows this stuff. Your barbarian can hardly read, let alone understand hundreds of spell effects, let alone name them by description, let alone understand their material components and the value of the time and labor expenses in pathfinder economy. This LACK of knowledge could lead to ignoble store owners taking advantage of an unknowing customer, as happens in real life.

Edit- It would promote more RP in shopping, either by promoting characters to discuss the items they would like, by involving members of the party to explain stuff and feel useful, or setting up side quests in the event that they get swindled and want to take action. It would also make shopkeeps seem more real and add immersion. Maybe groups already do this, but my experience has pretty much been "What do you want? Potions of X? X gold. Later."


Black_Lantern wrote:
Shah Jahan the King of Kings wrote:
It's not a matter of common nicknames, it's a matter of verisimilitude. Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?
Why does it matter?

RP. You know, the half of the game that isn't hitting things with axes.


It's not a matter of common nicknames, it's a matter of verisimilitude. Let's say I'm rolling a half-orc barbarian with an int dump stat. Does he know of Freedom of Movement or Bear's Ferocity or Enlarge Person to ask for it by name? If not, why? If so, how? If he could but may not , what kind of check would it need and how high?


Since all of them are high level, though, it is likely that those casting them are of some fame. Refuge would likely be unknown, but Imprison could certainly be one if a famous caster sealed away some great foe with it, or astral projected to do whatever. Essentially, the famous are under more scrutiny than the typical hedge wizard brewing his potions or talking to his rat or casting his canflips or whathaveyou. It depends on how the DM handles it, at the moment, but I wouldn't mind some standardization for the act of simply knowing a spell exists.


One other note- If a check is required to know a spell exists, how do we determine the value of the check? My first instict was something simple and related to spellcraft, in that the DC would be 10 or 5 plus spell level. I used 10 initially because it is much simpler than immediately knowing which spell is being cast as it is being cast or has been cast, it's the simple understanding that the spell exists somewhere. Like the difference between knowing that deer exist and what deer tracks look like.

Also, it seems flawed for another reason. Realistically, rare things are more famous. Like with vehicles. People who are inept at cars (like myself) can tell you what a rolls royce is, I know what a firebird is, I know what a corvette is. You don't see them often, but that they are rare is what makes them more common knowledge. I don't know the more common brands. I can't tell you the difference between toyota, dodge and honda and especially any of their specific models. So if cars were spells, I would know of some of the 7th 8th and 9th level spells, but not cantrips or the low to mid level spells. And I think this follows for a fantasy setting. People know fireballs. They know a storm of vengence. They know a wish, a meteor storm. They are the spells of legend. They probably don't know Endure Elements or Flare Burst, because while they may see them around, they're not worth memorizing.

Which brings up that issue- If it requires a check to determine if you know a spell, what is the standard value? Is it DC 20 minus spell level to account for the inversely proportionate values of rarity to common knowledge? Is it DC 5 or 10 plus spell level to scale like other spell-based skill checks? Would it have to be based entirely on the DM's subjective interpretation of how known a spell is, and his or her interpretation of the above inversely proportionate factor?


Again, though, the real question is only being lightly brushed on, like a gentle summer breeze caresses a baby's cheek. I'm looking for interpretations that slam into the question like a wrecking ball smashing into a baby's cheek.

It's all well and good that arcana can tell you what spell HAS been cast in an area or what spell an opponent IS casting in the heat of battle, but it doesn't say anything about the simple knowledge of spell names or functions, in general, without having observed them taking place or being cast. While it seems fairly common sense that this would fall under Knowledge Arcana, I haven't found any DC's for knowing of a spell's existence. Also, how would such a thing be handled? Would someone have to roll each time they attempt to name a new spell, to see if they know it exists? Wouldn't that lead to some awkwardness if it failed? "I came for a ring of-" *rolls* "damn. A ring of being able to walk better."

Someone above mentioned "I want to go faster" and being handed a haste scroll. That's more to the point I was getting at- does a wizard, sorcerer or especially fighter who has never cast or seen haste know what to call it when asking around in the local magic-mart? If not, it would do two things, one good and one bad.

The bad aspect is that it would require a large effort on the GM's part to parse the requests of the players as they have to try to explain spell mechanics that may or may not even exist. It would also require the players to have faith that the GM wouldn't pull a jerk move and give them something similar but bad, like as often happens with wishes.

The good aspect is like the last half of the bad aspect- It would encourage more engaging RP when shopping for magical items, haggling, bargaining, and taking the salesman at faith. It would allow a DM to make honest salespeople and dishonest "secondhand car" type salesmen who would essentially offer snake oil, or lie about their spells. It would force the players who don't have high knowledge arcana to simply trust (or distrust) magical item vendors, which would add layers of RP opportunity. Of course, for it to be good or bad in this regard depends on the GM in question and how prone he is to spamming jerk moves.


As in the title, do characters know the names of spells? This question has many facets- Spellcasters likely know the names of most spells, I would assume- It is their job to study them. But do they know ALL spells? What if it is a spell they have never seen, could they have heard of it? For example, let's say a wizard has never seen or read up on Searing Ray. Would he be able to ask for a scroll or wand of it by name, or would he have to beat around the bush and ask for a wand "that fires hot beams"?

Now, what about a dumb fighty type? One could assume that even an idiot could correctly identify the big ball of fire as a "fireball", but things get complex when it gets into the metaphysical spells, like ones that add luck bonuses or buffs like freedom of movement. To anyone not detecting magic, freedom of movement would just look like someone extremely agile or lucky. So could a dumb beefer really be expected to be able to know the spell to ask for it by name?

Then again, in a society in which magic is known, it might be relatively common knowledge. Could it be like cars? Mages would be mechanics, in this analagy, knowing how to fix and build cars. Someone like me would be a fighter type, since my knowledge is "VAN TRUCK OR CAR", and of course, there are enthusiasts who know the parts and makes of cars, but don't have hands on experience building them, so maybe knowledge arcana.

Knowledge Arcana might fit this bill, really, but this isn't exactly a "secrets of magic" or a "reactionary" type deal, which is what arcana seems to be. This isn't so much "Identify a spell as it is/after it has been cast" but "how many names and spell descriptions could a given character be expected to know as common knowledge in the first place".


I keep them doubtable, and like greek gods in that they make mistakes when they do act. I prefer to use the 3.5 gods due to familiarity, and typically they don't show up, but every now and again I throw out a reference, like an old man chilling in town feeding canaries before an important battle of good and evil, or the meeting of an eccentric older gentleman jogging down the path.

If the party is to meet a God, it is a big affair that shows their hosts and legions. I typically make them active in their own segment of reality, but too busy either with their portfolios or wars to bother with the prime material, except in the most extreme of circumstances which are directly related to their wars.

For example, Jergal is in a hundred-mile hallway filled with undead scribes writing the names of the dead. Jergal is in a room empty but for his desk and writing supplies.


A room in which various key items (stones, staves, swords, things of flavor) contain the truenames of various outsiders, and can be plugged in to an altar to cast a form of Gate spell. The room is designed to train students to bargain, discuss and commune with outsiders. There is a small library of specific outsiders, from lemures to solars. The key items take from a day to a month to recharge for use again. The higher ranked outsiders are kept under lock and key by the most trusted of the magi. While the room is magically protected to the highest degree, many of the more powerful outsiders have some influence on the room.

One high-ranked Contract Devil, for example, creates intense flames along the sides of the room which turn the chamber into an oven. It deals nonlethal fire damage, slowly building up until the summoner collapses or calls off the meeting. This is a tactic used by the devil to make his negotiators rush their bargains and overlook details in his contract, or make hasty choices, or better yet, collapse in the heat and die. Usually, the key is only taken out to train a particularly gifted planar conjuror in the art of outsider negotiations. Usually, there is a host of professors watching to ensure the prospect does not die. Usually.


I'm working on a character concept of, well, a golemsmith. I'm going for a mildly flighty, calm character who feels his life's calling is in tinkering with technolgy and trying to bridge the gap between inanimate and animate. Essentially, golems capable of thought are of great interest to him. In encounters, his primary goal will be to seek a diplomatic solution first, but if those fail beyond repair he will bring forth his constructs to fight and also use spells- mostly ones to enhance allies or hinder foes, but he will be willing to blast.

This said, I'm thinking of going Dwarf Wizard with the Craftsman alternate racial trait and possibly Magic Resistant.

As for my wizard stuff, I was thinking of taking the Thrush familiar for better diplomacy and to have a pet bird to chat with. I am thinking of going Conjuration: Creation for my chosen school and my opposition schools being necromancy and possibly evocation.

Thoughts on the concept? Any suggestions for must-have spells, or better uses of specialization, or anything I've missed?


I would say no. It seems to be a DM call based on cosmology. I prefer to run it as a sort of phasing into the afterlife. There is a short window when weaker magic can still reach a soul, as it isn't fully integrated into it's afterlife. It can still be contacted or pulled out relatively easily as it's still half on the prime material. After the set amounts of time, the entirety of the soul moves on. So in my interpretation, it's not so much a matter of the condition of the body, but that the soul can no longer be contacted without more powerful magic.


Zaister wrote:

I would postulate that it is actually impossible to torture undead. My reasoning is as follows. Torture is usually application of pain to force the victim, or application of mind-manipulation. Application of pain should not work. The APG introduces a new spell descriptor called "pain" and notes that creatures that are immune to effects requiring a Fortitude save—such as undead—are immune to these pain effects. If they are immune to magically induced pain, that should mostly apply to mundane pain as well. So, applying pain will not force an undead, as they probably cannot even feel it. Mind-manipulating torture should fail as well, as undead are immune to mind-affecting effects.

So, torturing an undead should not help you anything.

Apologies for two posts in a row, but here's a thought on that-

The undead probably can't feel it. However, it could be psychological torture. Essentially, removing bits of usefulness from an undead. Each cut, each digit removed, each sensory organ destroyed, is one less they have to carry on with. An intelligent undead knows this, and understands this as his mode of existence in the world is slowly being torn apart. Feel it or not, the existential crisis it would raise would be nothing to sneeze at.


estergum wrote:

Evil.

If its evil doing it to a kitten then its evil doing it to a vampire.

The nature of the act is not dependent on the target.

Furthermore, demons and devils torture, kill and subjugate their own kind more than they do so to mortals. They certainly don't gain "good guy points" or turn into paladins from it.


Dyrr kept his surrounded by dozens of wards, and as the spring for a trap which would collapse his tower, killing any who succeeded in breaking it.

Mine keeps his in a lead-lined container on the moon, surrounded by antimagic barriers. Breathe in space without magic, mortals.


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Just throwing this out there, but one major tactic when plate armor was popular was knocking an opponent over and then finishing them off by poking at their armpits or neck- It was apparently quite difficult to simply stand back up after being toppled in plate.


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It's a remnant from days when the Charima score defined actually important character traits. Charisma wasn't supposed to be about being social, you see- It was more of a force of personality, or an ability to lead or intimidate or exert your will on others, and more importantly, yourself. (Sorcerers)

Then Pathfinder decided to go with "It's how people see you" and effectively screwed up the stat for any sensible purpose. Hence why converted animals have low charisma score. It used to be that they were less "self aware" than sentient creatures. Now apparently they're all just ugly.


Tahirah wrote:

Weigh heigh and up she rises

Weigh heigh and up she rises
Weigh heigh and up she rises
Early in the session

What shall we do with a blinded archer,
What shall we do with a blinded archer,
What shall we do with a blinded archer,
Early in the session?

Teach him to not fail his saves,
Teach him to not fail his saves,
teach him to not fail his saves,
Early in the session.

Hire a cleric to fix his eyes,
Hire a cleric to fix his eyes,
Hire a cleric to fix his eyes,
Early in the session...

I apologize but I was just watching the trailer for dishonored and drunken sailor is stuck in my head.

Damn, ninja'd. Was going to go with "put him in the hold with the captain's daughter".


Here's one that could work- Have the illusionist cast a Minor Illusion of the woman in question bound and gagged, and have the sound be muffled cries. Have the illusion rush the party after she goes on one of her walks. Meanwhile, the rogues tie up the real one.

If the party allows her to go alone, this will be easy to execute as they players don't know the switch has been made, and the enemy is hopefully smart enough to figure out the mark's usual habits.

If they are attentive, it could include a silent image of a mook chasing her, or cause a distraction in general and set up the above. Essentially, this would cause the party to chase the fake mark and try to help her, while the real one is being carried off.

If the party puts her on lockdown, the enemy could try power in numbers and intimidation, have the illusionist use mirror image to make their numbers seem greater and use distracting illusions as a sort of "flashbang" long enough to grapple, pin and tie up the mark and remove her. The goal here is to keep the PC's either blinded, stunned or distracted with swinging at shadows. You could even include perception checks to see if they can notice the real goal of the kidnapping in the fight. To them, they will be suddenly assailed by smoke, explosions and possibly "demons and dragons and ghosts" (illusions), and may not notice the mooks sneaking in from behind to nab the mark.


One I enjoyed dropping on my party is a series of heavy blades over pits that swing back and forth down a long hallway. The blades, unbeknownst to the PCs, are illusions. In the space 5 feet in front of and behind the blades, however, the floor itself is an illusion covering a pit trap. Running or jumping through to blades causes them to tumble into the pit. This pattern keeps up until the last two axes, which are real, and the floor is also real.

The result should be that the PC's attempt to run through the axes or jump past them, falling into the pit and causing mild annoyance. As they climb out, they eventually discover that the blades are fake, and proceed to feel clever as they jump from blade to blade to avoid the pits. Until they hit the last few jumps.


As for the first one- They're playing the wrong game then, really. use hero points to avoid deaths from terrible luck, but poor decisions can result in death.

As for the latter, what is the alignment of the creature, and it's personality? I can see for most any alignment, the creature helping them and then turning to the party with "Now, about your payment..."


@ Deadmanwalking- Spells such as Commune tend to ask vague sources. It would be difficult to prove that they are actually speaking to a deity and not simply spirits from beyond- Either a single spirit or a hivemind of spirits, and their assertion that they are asking a deity could be based on belief. Again, it could also be explained away as placebo effect, that they know the answer all along, they just solidify it within themselves through prayer.

Also, planar travel typically does not plop one in front of a deity. Even amongst the planes, divine realms tend to be sealed off from planar travel. Even on their own plane, one would probably not encounter a god. Even in the Abyss, which is more demidivine, you are not likely to run into Orcus or Lolth, even if you are looking for them. They tend to not want to be met by mortals as they have multiverse-shaping decisions to make.


blahpers wrote:
This is Golarion. Plenty of places have evil temples out in the open.

That answers about half of half of a question. Typically, such places are already evil. In this case, the paladin has no dilema since the legal system is not legitimate as it is corrupted by evil.


Mortals don't really have much concrete proof of deities, even in Pathfinder. Sure, there's stories of friends of friends who knew a guy who totally saw a god appear to him. Of course, he was drunk and was stumbling by the College of Flashy Illusions.

Magic happens, sure. Divine magic happens because there are planes for positive and negative energy, and it's just as possible that they draw from those rather than direct divine intervention. Maybe holy symbols just give them the placebo effect they need to call on it.

The dead? Who knows, they may just be spirits. They may be deluded or lying or just on a plane they confuse for their god's.

Outsiders and Asmodeus and Demon Princes? Sure, they're made in a different way but they're not necessarily divine. Asmodeus is powerful, sure, but why must that mean he's Divine?

The above are not true statements, but they are ones that could reasonably be posited by a pathfinder atheist.

I like to play it where gods don't really interact with the mortal world. They are too busy in their own realm. So whether or not they even exist is quite the valid question for someone not metagaming, I think.

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