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In defense of some folks (possibly myself included), I think it can be a little hard for an individual to determine if a word is obscure. Obviously if you're searching through a thesaurus and pick the word that seems the strangest or most archaic, then you might think to yourself "Hey - maybe nobody will know what heck I'm talking about here." And I'm sure some people pick such a word on purpose. However one might know a word and just assume that it's common knowledge.
To use JaceDK's examples, I know what a phlebotomist is. I have acquaintances in various medical professions, including one who is, in fact, now a phlebotomist by trade. I have also had the word used with me in a hospital visit in regards to bloodwork being done. Type the word into google and all sorts of education, training and employment opportunities come up.
"Ephemera" or "ephemeral" comes up all the time in fantasy and horror literature in regards to ghosts and spirits, so I don't know that it's obscure for the genre - that said, I do find "viscous ephemera" to be clunky but very Lovecraftian, traits which often seem to go hand in hand to me.
Now, if you don't know any medical types or don't get regular bloodwork done, then you might not be familiar with the word phlebotomist - but does that make the word obscure? I spent my whole life not knowing what a neti pot was until I met someone who had used one all her life; I would like to say that it was because they're obscure, but I have a hard time applying that word to a category of tool/appliance that you can buy at any department store. Until today I had no idea who Dr. McNinja was (and thank you for enlightening me, Standback) - though I still don't know if the character is considered obscure amongst internet-savvy gamers.
In the end, I guess my point is that esoteric doesn't necessarily equal obscure, and it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference.
some good stuff
Excellent points. I think the only point at which one can really call language obscure is when outdated or downright archaic language is used. Still, there's precedent for that. When running a fantasy game where ancient civilizations and technology are the norm, using an archaic term for something provides a certain flavor.
I'd much prefer to see somewhat archaic terms than modern scientific ones. 'Phlebotomist' dates from about 1650 so it's not too bad, but 'leech' means much the same thing and is far older. Not only that, I expect many more people would recognise it.
Besides, dweomer and antithesis of weal. D&D (even under other names and publishers) isn't D&D without that sort of flamboyant grandiloquence.
I love how a simple query can spawn off such indepth discussions on these forums. It's ruddy marvellous (beg pardon the expletive).
Clicks next link, thoroughly enjoying hisself before his next chapter of Golarion wonderment revision.
I can tell you from personal experience that if you ask ten friends (gamers, a doctor, a art historian, etc.) and they ALL have to ask you what the word means then you probably shouldn't use it. And I didn't. But it was a difficult choice.
Maybe after I'm offically out, I'll post the word here and see how many know it....
I'd much prefer to see somewhat archaic terms than modern scientific ones. 'Phlebotomist' dates from about 1650 so it's not too bad, but 'leech' means much the same thing and is far older. Not only that, I expect many more people would recognise it.
Besides, dweomer and antithesis of weal. D&D (even under other names and publishers) isn't D&D without that sort of flamboyant grandiloquence.
Yep. D&D has always had a particularly Gygaxian vernacular.
I have to agree with the philologists in this thread. D&D is what first turned me on to learning new words and expanding my vocabulary. The trick is to use an archaic or obscure word without disturbing the flow of the description. If the reader can infer meaning by the words usage, then they can more easily get the gist, and learn something too.
Of course, putting an obscure word into a title successfully is a lot trickier than putting it in the description body.
If you look at the top 32 items of the past, there are a lot of obscure words in the titles...
scapular, phial, batrachian, umbral, ephemera, phlebotomist, triptych, chiurgeon
Sometimes the judges have an issue, and sometimes they don't. I also love learning new words through gaming. If the title works, it works.
Here's a question for the judges that takes this vocabulary topic a step further: Have there been any neologisms in the names (or even the body) of any prior contest entries?
I have to agree with the philologists in this thread. D&D is what first turned me on to learning new words and expanding my vocabulary. The trick is to use an archaic or obscure word without disturbing the flow of the description. If the reader can infer meaning by the words usage, then they can more easily get the gist, and learn something too.
Of course, putting an obscure word into a title successfully is a lot trickier than putting it in the description body.
I'm guilty of this in my submission, maybe, depending on the vocabulary of the reviewers.
I like to think that the spirit of the original game was not to shy away from obscure language, especially when it comes to treasure. Many of those early treasure item descriptions still send me off to google... but since that is often accompanied by an image, I never mind the time lost.
I think it is bad to cram multiple obscure words into a single item name, but if I have to pick between something vernacular and something archaic in a single word, archaic wins.
DnD has helped me learn a lot of new words. However, I'm entirely against them being used in an item name. Why? Context.
One of the best ways to learn a new word is to use it in context. phlebotomist's gloves is exactly as meaningful as Steve's gloves. If it were used inside the item "The phlebotomist can draw blood from his target as a standard action...", that's much different, because it can be understood that at least in this case a phlebotomist is someone who draws blood.
And for anyone who doesn't think this game teaches new words, they need only look at the page in the GMs guide for "words a GM should know". Two pages of flavorful vocabulary.
I can confirm 100% that the game does teach new words.
I distinctly remember my sons very first gamer table words at age 4...
I also distinctly remember the "wife look" and the thought "dear god, where did you learn that?"
Next session, my players were introuduced to the $1/£1 swear box.
On the plus side, I got an awful lot of new gaming material those next couple of weeks :)
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We all have to remember that one of the founders of the game was Mr. Eldritch Dweomer himself, Gary Gygax. He quite specifically chose obscure words and put them throughout his
As an innocent child, I had no idea what the harlot table was talking about. The only term I recognized was "saucy tart," but only meaning a little fruit pie covered in vanilla sauce. On the other hand, my mother loved the effect the game had on my vocabulary.
(As a quick aside, "dweomer" wasn't actually a word before Gygax. Dweomercraeft was Old English, but dweomer was never by itself. Here's one source.)
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Three names. Clark Ashton Smith. If you've read him, he's the king of obscure words. Asimov even commented he'd be better known if he didn't use so many.
The first two lines of the Colossus of Ylourgne:
"The thrice-infamous nathaire, alchemist, astrologer and necromancer, with his ten devil-given pupils, had departed very suddenIy and under circumstances of strict secrecy from the town of Vyones. It was widely thought, among the people of that vicinage, that his departure had been prompted by a salutary fear of ecclesiastical thumbscrews and f*%~$!s."
Link I assume it's a good (i.e. legal) site.
I'd also point out when my friend's youngest started playing he was reading at a 1st grade level (in the 4th grade) Being with his dad instead of his mom and playing, he caught up.
Rdit: Ok, the censor on the last word made me laugh.
One of the best ways to learn a new word is to use it in context. phlebotomist's gloves is exactly as meaningful as Steve's gloves. If it were used inside the item "The phlebotomist can draw blood from his target as a standard action...", that's much different, because it can be understood that at least in this case a phlebotomist is someone who draws blood.
I agree. Obscure words are fine in item’s name, if the description... describes what it is :) well enough that readers can get it without a dictionary search.
It is not a bad idea to heed tips like this from the judges though. And I see their point on this one. Ideally, the name gives the reader an idea of what the item is and does. As much as writers love recondite words (see what I did there :P) , they are at odds of the basic purpose of the name.
Gene Wolfe is super big on big words, too.
Very good and interesting comments on the use of obscure word. The discussion certainly shows (and I agree with this), that there is no reason to be afraid of challenging the reader to expand his vocabulary.
I'd still be cautious of using obscure words in the item name, though - unless I was very certain that it was clear what the item is and does, even if you don't know the particular word. Because just like a book title or article headline, the purpose of the item name is to paint a vivid mental picture in the mind of the reader, and entice him to read on. And if that picture has a big, blank spot in it, that can interfere with the purpose.
My concern is that for every person who sees an unknown word in the title and goes "hmmm, that looks interesting, I wonder what that means" theres going to be two who go "What the heck does that mean? I'll just go and read the "Ladle of endless Awesomesauce" instead".
Also, I agree with Clark's comment about how the use of obscure words has the risk of the author coming off as "look how smart I am", whether intentional or unintentional.
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Also, you know, that page in the GMG isn't exactly discouraging us, Paizo. ;)
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Very good and interesting comments on the use of obscure word. The discussion certainly shows (and I agree with this), that there is no reason to be afraid of challenging the reader to expand his vocabulary.
I'd still be cautious of using obscure words in the item name, though - unless I was very certain that it was clear what the item is and does, even if you don't know the particular word. Because just like a book title or article headline, the purpose of the item name is to paint a vivid mental picture in the mind of the reader, and entice him to read on. And if that picture has a big, blank spot in it, that can interfere with the purpose.
My concern is that for every person who sees an unknown word in the title and goes "hmmm, that looks interesting, I wonder what that means" theres going to be two who go "What the heck does that mean? I'll just go and read the "Ladle of endless Awesomesauce" instead".
Also, I agree with Clark's comment about how the use of obscure words has the risk of the author coming off as "look how smart I am", whether intentional or unintentional.
Well 'obscure' can also be in the eye of the reader. I mean I've a second cousing who is uses 'phlebo' as part of her yahoonick because she's a lab tech. To Clark Habeous Corpus is a common term. To the average High School student? Not so much. A coinbox of indulgences that is a portable atonement spell in a can is going to be more understandable to Lutherans than to, say, Muslims.*
*
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A coinbox of indulgences that is a portable atonement spell in a can is going to be more understandable to Lutherans than to, say, Muslims.*
*** spoiler omitted **
Well, sure, if they bothered to pay attention during their confirmation classes. Some people just get queasy after hearing about the 95 theologians he nailed to the church door and just tune out everything afterwards.
A coinbox of indulgences that is a portable atonement spell in a can is going to be more understandable to Lutherans than to, say, Muslims.*
*** spoiler omitted **
Well, sure, if they bothered to pay attention during their confirmation classes. Some people just get queasy after hearing about the 95 theologians he nailed to the church door and just tune out everything afterwards.
** spoiler omitted **
I feel a nascent divine caster prestige-class forming...
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Well, sure, if they bothered to pay attention during their confirmation classes. Some people just get queasy after hearing about the 95 theologians he nailed to the church door and just tune out everything afterwards.
** spoiler omitted **
"May the Force be with you."
"And also with you."
Regarding names: I think it isn't just a matter of whether "I" can understand the name - names should also make sense in context of the world in which they fit.
- "Bloodletter gloves" are probably more appropriate than "phlebotomist gloves" in a world where primarily rogues will use the item
- But an item intended for wizards, who run around with 28 Int, a name that is hard seems more appropriate; even a foreign name could pass "Weltanschauung lenses" (barring of course the insta-fail rules in the RPG guides)
A Modest Proposal was such a horrifying essay and I still don't understand why they made us read it in English class.
<scanning for sarcasm>
A Modest Proposal was such a horrifying essay and I still don't understand why they made us read it in English class.
*squints*
You were one of my students, weren't you?
Honestly, "A Modest Proposal" was one of my favorite reads required for high school. The Great Gatsby, however, was on of two books to ever get on my burn-list.
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I'll take "The Great Gatsby" every day of the week and twice on Sundays if I never have to even think about "Ethan Frohm" again.
I'll take "The Great Gatsby" every day of the week and twice on Sundays if I never have to even think about "Ethan Frohm" again.
Okay that's on the do not read list.
Maybe I need to come up with a magic item that aids in book burning, hmmm.
Ugh, The Wicker Man. I think that's the one. A hundred pages that took me almost a month to finish because I hated the book. I'm not sure what exactly it was about it that I didn't like, but it bored me to tears.
What is funny is how these messageboards are like playing a roleplaying game. They start out focused then go off on a tangent for a little while and then come back to the subject lol.
What is funny is how these messageboards are like playing a roleplaying game. They start out focused then go off on a tangent for a little while and then come back to the subject lol.
Wow, your players come back to the plot after going off at tangents?
I gave up on that years ago, the players now "create plot" whilst they game.
It's very... liberating :)
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Such is life: attempts at being productive derailed by endless segues into digression. Technology hasn't made us more efficient; it's just given us more ways to goof off.
The "killer" book from my days at school was "Far from the Madding Crowd" by Thomas Hardy - sooooo slow.
However, whilst on reading, I just finished a very unusual take on fantasy - Abarat by Clive Barker.
It's different to staple fantasy and a very good read - have a try if you can get a copy.
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What is funny is how these messageboards are like playing a roleplaying game. They start out focused then go off on a tangent for a little while and then come back to the subject lol.Wow, your players come back to the plot after going off at tangents?
I gave up on that years ago, the players now "create plot" whilst they game.
It's very... liberating :)
I found that the best way to get my players to derail my plans was to actually make plans.
I'm sure there's a relevant theory of physics associated with this phenomenon.
I'm pretty sure that Newton would be a gamer...
Maybe I need to come up with a magic item that aids in book burning, hmmm.
I think that would be the Mighty Greataxe Of Sundering The Sword Of Killing Hitler.
FWIW, the Greataxe can itself only be damaged/destroyed by striking it with a banned book (hardcover). Sort of a rock, paper, scissors thing when you think about it...
Wow, your players come back to the plot after going off at tangents?
I gave up on that years ago, the players now "create plot" whilst they game.
It's very... liberating :)
Yeah they will take breaks from making fun of each other to play the game. It's amazing how much crap a party can get into on their own. My group always manufactures something illegal or run a shady business. It's entertaining to say the least.
I couldn't help, reading Dave Gross' novel, Prince of Wolves... Radovan's codpiece, with the spike. Now that's a Wondrous Item...
Finish this title: "Wondrous Codpiece of..."
I couldn't help, reading Dave Gross' novel, Prince of Wolves... Radovan's codpiece, with the spike. Now that's a Wondrous Item...
Finish this title: "Wondrous Codpiece of..."
The halfling rogue throws open the door wearing a monstrous, bejeweled codpiece and an grin that runs from ear to pointed ear. Their interest piqued and their better judgment defeated, his halfling allies inquire.
FIGHTER: What... what is that? [points at the codpiece, as though anyone could look away from it]
ROGUE: Well, I was thinking, it's kind of inconvenient that all the members of this party are so small. So I bought us this Wondrous Codpiece of Enlarge Member!
I couldn't help, reading Dave Gross' novel, Prince of Wolves... Radovan's codpiece, with the spike. Now that's a Wondrous Item...
Finish this title: "Wondrous Codpiece of..."
The halfling rogue throws open the door wearing a monstrous, bejeweled codpiece and an grin that runs from ear to pointed ear. Their interest piqued and their better judgment defeated, his halfling allies inquire.
FIGHTER: What... what is that? [points at the codpiece, as though anyone could look away from it]
ROGUE: Well, I was thinking, it's kind of inconvenient that all the members of this party are so small. So I bought us this Wondrous Codpiece of Enlarge Member!
AAAHHHH! The Punamity!
In all seriousness though, that was funny.
And sosososo wrong, so very very wrong.
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DnD has helped me learn a lot of new words.
Oh man - you've just brought back a memory that I had totally forgotten.
I was 8 years old when I started playing D&D and one of the first things I had to do was look up the words Constitution, Dexterity and Charisma. You'd actually be surprised these days how many people don't know what dexterity means...