A friend was commenting how wizards/sorcerers are even more standard than basic fighters because they always take the same 'best' spells. they always have mage armor, feather fall, shield, color spray, grease, sleep, scorching ray, invisibility, detect thoughts, fly, haste, fireball, monst sum, etc...
So I want to build a spell caster that uses odd spells {not sure if he will be a sorc or wiz yet}.
For example, I've hardly ever heard of anyone using touch of idiocy or eruptive pustules. But I love them even if they are not the 'best'.
So what seem to you like good spells that are not the same-old-same-old?
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That's kinda harsh to say for spellcaster , if spellcaster focuses on his school of magic or his element of play he will take best spells which compliment him and 50% of spells are extremly situational. There is just no point in taking Detect Charm if you can have it ready as a scroll.
I would proly build some trickster mage or debuffer if you want unusuall, they always have wide area to pick from seems to me.
That's kinda harsh to say for spellcaster...
He was talking about why he almost never plays a caster.
We did have a person in the group who almost always played a caster. And... well... they were pretty cookie cutter similar. The only difference seemed to be if they are arcane or divine. And even that was fairly minimal change since he would play a cleric of the god of magic and then try and act like a wizard with some healing.
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I had a player use touch of idiocy once. Couldn't believe it. Link.
So I highly encourage the idea behind this thread's creation. Use the 'useless' spells!
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There is still proly tons of ways to a build mage.
I picked Eruptive pustules on my witch just for flavour. Buffed a bit with temporary hps she can pick and inflict some damage. Its ineffective of course , but its fun to play with, and since from my xp people really rarely protect casters why the heck not, maybe it even discouarges npc from attacking you.
What are really "useless" spells?
Never believe someone who uses the word "always".
For example of those spells listed that wizards/sorcerers supposedly "always" take, our wizard's only got Colour Spray and Sleep, despite being high enough level for the other spells. He makes a lot of use of Animate Dead, and buff/debuff spells. False Life, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Blindness/Deafness, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Chill Touch, etc.
Never believe someone who uses the word "always".
For example of those spells listed that wizards/sorcerers supposedly "always" take, our wizard's only got Colour Spray and Sleep, despite being high enough level for the other spells. He makes a lot of use of Animate Dead, and buff/debuff spells. False Life, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Blindness/Deafness, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Chill Touch, etc.
Agreed. That is why I'm looking into making an effective caster that doesn't use any of the 'standard' spells. Kind of a in your teeth example that I might use in a one off.
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I would suggest Witch as the caster that can most easily take fun spells without it being a drawback. Hexes are their main offence, so their spells are things to have fun with.
There are quite a lot of reasonable spells that aren't fashionable. The stat affecting spells such as Touch of idiocy are rather good spells especially when empowered or maximised (or both).
Necromancy and Enchantment specialists can be fun/annoying too (often taken as opposition schools) as can deception specialists and those that can read your thoughts. e.g. Charm Person, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Seek Thoughts, Clairaudience, Suggestion, Confusion, Geas.
Half-Orc is a good race for a fun unexpected caster with a big sword.
How is touch of idiocy a useless spell? It looks like an excellent debuff to me.
All fighters take power attack. Some things just beg to be taken. There is still some scope for change.
Not true. First group I played in had a fighter who put all his feats towards being a longspear/tripping expert. He made it to 5th level before that game stopped and didn't take Power Attack, nor did he ever list it in his planned build.
Once again, don't trust words like "always, all, and every". Anything that doesn't allow for exceptions is likely going to be proven wrong.
Touch of Idiocy means you're entering melee range as a fragile little caster to maybe disable a spellcaster. It would be a better spell for an anti-mage (like Magus). It's only going to inconvenience you a lot more than it would inconvenience a bruiser.
It's also competing with some superb spells like Web and Glitterdust, which can disable multiple opponents at once, as well as serve utility purposes.
Metamagic rods are easy to spam and highly useful. :)
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There's no "maybe" about it, really. ToI doesn't require a save, even wizards can hit a touch AC, and it justs drops your stats across the board by a rolled amount. You're looking at a potential loss of six spell levels that you can cast, a loss of a half-dozen derived stats...
Yes, you're in melee range, but then again so's the other caster - and you aren't suddenly crippled in a wizard's slapfight. You've still got your full range of spells, unless someone hits you back with a ToI.
Granted, Web and Glitterdust are pretty great, but ToI is far from useless. Endure Elements is useless. Touch of Idiocy, if used correctly, will completely disable the enemy artillery.
How is touch of idiocy a useless spell? It looks like an excellent debuff to me.
It is useless because it applies a penalty rather than actually dealing stat damage.
That means you can't use it to take down stupid/unwise/unpleasant enemies. That basically makes it worthless to use on anyone except spellcasters.
It is also only 1d6 and doesn't stack, so you can't build up a meaningful penalty. At least ray of enfeeblement has a static mod added to the die roll.
At best, you might occasionally deny a spellcaster their highest level of spells. Most likely, you'll just drop the save DCs of their spells by 1 or 2. It's hardly earthshattering and you'd almost certainly have been able to do better with a 2nd level slot.
It's one of those spells I really want to like, but ultimately, I think you're better off just waiting for Feeblemind for a caster shutdown spell. Even if you really want a no-save touch spell, Frigid Touch is way better at 2nd level.
Indeed, I had a sorcerer PC defang a lich almost completely by repeatedly using touch of idiocy. Were it not for the lich's paralysis, the spellcaster would have been completely shut down. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics and oracles are in deep trouble from touch of idiocy.
How does repeatedly casting Touch of Idiocy help? Were you just doing it until you got a 6 on the die?
From the PRD: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves."
And even with a 6, the Lich would still have full access to his 6th level spells. So yeah, it'd be just a -3 to the save DCs. Not that big a deal.
Actually, now that I think of it, Touch of Idiocy is a mind-affecting effect, so the Lich would be immune by virtue of being undead anyway.
Indeed, I had a sorcerer PC defang a lich almost completely by repeatedly using touch of idiocy. Were it not for the lich's paralysis, the spellcaster would have been completely shut down. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics and oracles are in deep trouble from touch of idiocy.
How did you cast it on a lich anyway? First it is mind-affecting, second, it only targets living creatures.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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From the PRD: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves."
Most people forget about that and spam spells like ToI anyway. Also, I have seen people treat the penalty that the spell gives as ability damage. They just didn't read the fine print, and no one bothered to read the magic section of the rules.
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I'm surprised that Ray of Enfeeblement has only been mentioned in passing. For the longest times Ray of Enfeeblement had a place of obscurity in my games, but lately it has become a must-have for low levels in PFS games in my area.
It only makes sense. Since lower level boss-type monsters tend towards physical damage in low level PFS scenarios, a good roll with Ray of Enfeeblement can really hamstring tougher monsters, whether or not they make the saving throw.
Interestingly enough, it's also started making an appearance in my home games ever since it's effectiveness was proved during PFS.
both chill touch and frostbite get a bit of a bad reputation, but they're actually great spells. chill touch gives save or lose against undead, and can hit one target per level due to multiple touches. frostbite gives excellent scaling damage for a first level spell, inflicts fatigue with no save and a long duration, can effect multiple targets, and with rime spell can inflict entangled condition with no save for one round on every hit. combine this with multiple natural attacks and you have a seriously nasty spell. in fact, if you check out the advice archives i've got a build for a familiar that also uses transformation (another underrated spell) that means a cat familiar can reliably take out a young dragon in under two rounds with good odds of taking no damage.
but for other spells people turn up their noses at... endure elements is valueable if you're planning to cross a desert or travel during winter. reduce person is an excellent buff for a caster, boosting stealth, AC, and accuricy at the cost of weapon damage... as if that mattered to a caster. hypnotism is good for its implanted suggestion, and the fact that those that fail their saves are unable to remember being hypnotised. dies out at later levels due to hd restrictions, but is budget mass suggestion until you get the real thing.
hypnotic pattern type spells are considered useless as combat breaks them, completely ignoring the fact that they can bypass a fight entirely or give you time to get into an optimum position before drawing your swords. arcane sight is beyond valueable in combat with another caster, as it allows you to see their defences at a glance and plan accordingly. against illusionists... just don't leave home without it.
that's all for now, but i'm sure i'll think of more later.
Vanish is a great spell.
Spells which allow you to avoid, rather than overcome, enemies are greatly devalued by most tactics, but used properly in a well-run campaign they can be game-changers. Hypnotism, Charm person etc.
Even a spell like "memory lapse" can be far more effective than most people realize, but only with a good GM who is playing the campaign, not trying to defeat the party. The same goes for illusion spells.
Back in the old days I used to play an Illusionist and learned that illusions can be downright overpowered, but many GMs simply metagame around their effects, so players tend to avoid them. The same is true of many divination spells.
Mix illusions with enchantments.... that's pretty powerful stuff.
It's a rare wizard/sorcerer that I play who doesn't have flaming sphere. Do damage on your move action and still have a standard action left? Nice.
Underrated spells: (unless I just haven't been paying attention and people always take them)
Liberating Command: Gotta be just about the best 1st level spell in the game for a caster.. auto-include on every list I make. Immediate action, scales DOUBLE with level to escape from what is normally one of the easier ways to shut down a caster. SO good.
Ant Haul
Calcific Touch: I really can't stress how incredibly in love with this spell I am... up to 1 touch/level, every single touch does a guaranteed 1d4 Dex damage and potentially slows, and if you get something to 0 it turns to stone permanently....
If you notice, really really large scary things to tend have size penalties to Dex,,, which means the larger they are the more and more easily you can touch them AND the more easily you can petrify them... Surprisingly effective, especially when combined with Reach Spell. (and other things that do Dex dmg)
Speaking of: Touch of Gracelessness is a great spell, and awesome in combination with Calcific Touch
Shadow Projection: Oh my. I mean, sure you leave your body vulnerable... but if you have some sort of bodyguard the abuse potential is phenomenal...
Wandering Star Motes: I passed over this many times before I actually read it closely... Potentially make something unable to act for many rounds, but even if it makes its save the effect just jumps onto someone else
Bestow Grace: Give a Sorcerer/Bard/Oracle etc a wand of this and try to get them to fail a saving throw
Acute Senses: The sheer size of the bonus this gives it crazy. by level 8 +20(!!!) to perception.. you are going to be aware of everything
I'm sure there's much more but that's off the top of my head
I'm surprised that Ray of Enfeeblement has only been mentioned in passing. For the longest times Ray of Enfeeblement had a place of obscurity in my games, but lately it has become a must-have for low levels in PFS games in my area.
It only makes sense. Since lower level boss-type monsters tend towards physical damage in low level PFS scenarios, a good roll with Ray of Enfeeblement can really hamstring tougher monsters, whether or not they make the saving throw.
Interestingly enough, it's also started making an appearance in my home games ever since it's effectiveness was proved during PFS.
None of my players use it in pathfinder, since in 3.5 it had no fort save, and they can't get used to the 'both having to hit and a save' thing. Normally spells are one or the other. Attack roll or save. Its probably just them, they just feel its less valuable, based on a perceived value from before.
None of my players use it in pathfinder, since in 3.5 it had no fort save, and they can't get used to the 'both having to hit and a save' thing. Normally spells are one or the other. Attack roll or save. Its probably just them, they just feel its less valuable, based on a perceived value from before.I'm surprised that Ray of Enfeeblement has only been mentioned in passing. For the longest times Ray of Enfeeblement had a place of obscurity in my games, but lately it has become a must-have for low levels in PFS games in my area.
It only makes sense. Since lower level boss-type monsters tend towards physical damage in low level PFS scenarios, a good roll with Ray of Enfeeblement can really hamstring tougher monsters, whether or not they make the saving throw.
Interestingly enough, it's also started making an appearance in my home games ever since it's effectiveness was proved during PFS.
I almost automatically reject any spell that has both an attack roll and a save against it's main or most powerful effect. Two chances for the spell to fail is one too many.
Shatter, this spell is amazing in the mind of a creative person. "Oh I see you have a spell component pouch *shatters the fabric of the cloth contents go everywhere*, and now its broken".
-Holy symbols
-Quivers
-Powder Horns
-Backpacks
-Locks (who needs disable device anyway?)
-Scabbard (Never actually used this one and it may not work)
-Strap on a buckler
Shatter, this spell is amazing in the mind of a creative person. "Oh I see you have a spell component pouch *shatters the fabric of the cloth contents go everywhere*, and now its broken".
-Holy symbols
-Quivers
-Powder Horns
-Backpacks
-Locks (who needs disable device anyway?)
-Scabbard (Never actually used this one and it may not work)
-Strap on a buckler
I don't know if I'd allow a spell pouch to be "shattered." I'd probably rule that for something to "shatter" it needs to be solid enough to shatter in the first place. From the spell description "Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, non-magical objects; sunders a single solid, non-magical object; or damages a crystalline creature."
But yes, shatter is a very useful and under-utilized spell.
Flaming sphere. 3d6 (possibly 3d6+3) damage that you can cast once, and goes round after round after round, targeting whats usually an opponents weakest defense (reflex save?) Oh, and you can roll it in front of you so that anyone charging you sets fire to their hoo hahs? Yes please.
Pyrotechnics: You can blind EVERYONE on the battlemat. Use the above flaming sphere as a fire source
Shatter, this spell is amazing in the mind of a creative person. "Oh I see you have a spell component pouch *shatters the fabric of the cloth contents go everywhere*, and now its broken".
-Holy symbols
-Quivers
-Powder Horns
-Backpacks
-Locks (who needs disable device anyway?)
-Scabbard (Never actually used this one and it may not work)
-Strap on a buckler
Shattering a pouch (probably cloth) is kind of iffy...
Shattering a holy symbol? Why have I never thought of this before?! I know what spell I'm learning next time I play a wizard.
...Or perhaps making use of in a cleric vs. cleric duel. (Heh heh heh...)
unnatural lust. a bit meh if you get it as a second level spell, but as a first level spell...
it has all of the benifits of command, in that it stops a target acting for a single round. but it doesn't. it compels the target to move up to 30 feet (drawing AoOs all the way) and grope/carress (read: grapple) another target. so it's good in combat. then factor in its use for shenanigans outside of combat, particularly if still/silent, and nothing hurts your enemies credibility like having him... be indiscreet.
witch with the enchantment patron gets it as a first level spell at level 2, and i think it's well worth using.
more spells pending.
Thanks folks!
These are the kind of examples I was looking for.
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Shatter, this spell is amazing in the mind of a creative person. "Oh I see you have a spell component pouch *shatters the fabric of the cloth contents go everywhere*, and now its broken".
-Holy symbols
-Quivers
-Powder Horns
-Backpacks
-Locks (who needs disable device anyway?)
-Scabbard (Never actually used this one and it may not work)
-Strap on a buckler
Shattering a pouch (probably cloth) is kind of iffy...
Shattering a holy symbol? Why have I never thought of this before?! I know what spell I'm learning next time I play a wizard.
...Or perhaps making use of in a cleric vs. cleric duel. (Heh heh heh...)
One of the first pieces of advice I was given by my group when I created a cleric character was to buy multiple holy symbols, in case one gets sundered. I bought 3 wooden symbols to start, and a silver one after my first adventure.
I'm surprised that list of shatterable items didn't include weapons or armor outright. When targeting a single item, those shouldn't be too big, assuming they're not magical. If they are magic, then forget it.
@PettyAlchemy,
Yes, it's true that Touch of Idiocy is a melee touch. It's a most vicious spell against spellcasters, though, having no save. A spectral hand gives the spell a range of 50 feet. An empowered TOI can do some serious ability damage, destroying a spellcasters ability to be effective, WITH NO SAVE.
Other option: Wizard / Monk!!
@PettyAlchemy,
Yes, it's true that Touch of Idiocy is a melee touch. It's a most vicious spell against spellcasters, though, having no save. A spectral hand gives the spell a range of 50 feet. An empowered TOI can do some serious ability damage, destroying a spellcasters ability to be effective, WITH NO SAVE.
Other option: Wizard / Monk!!
But it doesn't actually do that unless the spellcaster is made poorly. It drops the save DCs on their spells by a max of 3 points and drops a couple bonus slots. That's it.
Think about it. At level 4, Touch of Idiocy can penalize someone 6 points of Intelligence. Level 4 casters can cast level 2 spells, so in order to deny them a spell level, they need to have less than 18 in their casting stat (assuming you even roll a 6!). Every spellcaster whose spellcasting is their primary threat starts with at least an 18 and pumps that at 4th level, so, that isn't happening.
At level 8, when they can cast level 4 spells, a -6 penalty only takes away a spell if they have less than 20. By level 8, they'll have had two attribute bumps and likely a +2 item. So, they could even have started with a 16 and still cast their full allotment of spells.
At level 10, you can cast Feeblemind for caster shut-down, so there's no longer any point in even discussing Touch of Idiocy.
And empowered? Why? For that 4th level slot, you could have used Black Tentacles--that grapple is going to shut down casters way harder than Touch of Idiocy.
It's just not a good spell.
...At level 8, when they can cast level 4 spells, a -6 penalty only takes away a spell if they have less than 20. By level 8, they'll have had two attribute bumps and likely a +2 item. So, they could even have started with a 16 and still cast their full allotment of spells...
Most of the adventures I have looked at have very few primary casters with a high spell casting stat and a stat bump item. Most of them have have been hybrid martial casters with the stat no higher than needed to cast their current highest level spell. So against them it almost shuts down their casting. It is not how I would necessarily build an optimized caster, but it is what I have seen lately. IIRC the last was a fighter 2/sorc 7 that only had a 15 in charisma. ToI has a 1 in 3 chance of completely eliminating any spells from that guy without it being empowered or maximized.
Plus, it's only a second level spell. I don't expect my 2nd level spells to always win the encounter when I'm 8th level.True, it's not a great spell, but I think it is sometimes a very good spell.
I love playing gish builds, but it's boring if you pick the same spells every time. I once played a 3.5 Druid and chose every anti-life, Con damaging, poisonous, acidic, blighty spell I could get my hands on. She was very scary. Even constructs feared her.
I'm now playing a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple and am limiting myself to necromancy (negative energy/ability drain) and illusion (darkness) spells, with a few evocation and transmutation spells sprinkled here and there if it fits the theme. It really forces me to adhere to that theme, choose spells I normally wouldn't, and be pleasantly surprised at the usefulness of the "useless" spells.
Other players in my group choose the old standards, and maybe it's just our campaign, but spells like Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, and even Haste are not always as awesome or reliable as people think they are. Really it's just a matter of taste and/or the situation in which it is used.
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Grease is an underestimated spell, especially at low level
Imagine being chased by a gaggle of Goblins or Orcs through a half-lit dungeon and then down stairs that drop off 15m or more.
Imagine now the bad guys chase you and as you come to and then pass a landing where the stairs continue down to the right. A few steps down your fighter stops and turns to shoot an arrow at your opponents. As they do that you, standing behind them for cover, cast Grease on the landing
Imagine if you would the Orcs running down and finding the Grease.....
Daze is also great as it will affect up to 4HD giving your fighting types free rounds where their opponent can't hurt them
IIRC the last was a fighter 2/sorc 7 that only had a 15 in charisma. ToI has a 1 in 3 chance of completely eliminating any spells from that guy without it being empowered or maximized.
That is an absolutely horribly built character. I don't understand at all.
Such a character is so crappy, I can't imagine they're much of a threat anyway. You could probably have just Webbed or Glitterdusted him and he'd have been useless anyway.
But then, I will freely admit I've never run a module or used a monster manual--in 18 years, I've always created the foes myself. So, my opinion must be skewed towards facing competantly built villains.
Grease is an underestimated spell, especially at low level
I don't think Grease is underestimated. I think that it is widely acknowledged as the best, or if not the best, then in the top 3 best level 1 spells in the game.
I would never play a spellcaster without Grease.
Shatter, this spell is amazing in the mind of a creative person. "Oh I see you have a spell component pouch *shatters the fabric of the cloth contents go everywhere*, and now its broken".
-Holy symbols
-Quivers
-Powder Horns
-Backpacks
-Locks (who needs disable device anyway?)
-Scabbard (Never actually used this one and it may not work)
-Strap on a buckler
I don't know if I'd allow a spell pouch to be "shattered." I'd probably rule that for something to "shatter" it needs to be solid enough to shatter in the first place. From the spell description "Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, non-magical objects; sunders a single solid, non-magical object; or damages a crystalline creature."
But yes, shatter is a very useful and under-utilized spell.
Fair enough, how about the belt holding the spell component pouch?
I don't know, unless you want to claim that a spell component pouch is not solid, I don't see how Shatter wouldn't work.
I mean, obviously, the area version wouldn't do anything because those items explicitly have to be brittle, but there's multiple uses available and one is:
"Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."
And the target line includes "one solid object." A spell component pouch is not liquid, gas, or plasma, so I'm pretty sure it can be Shattered.
@mplindustries:"Every spellcaster whose spellcasting is their primary threat starts with at least an 18 and pumps that at 4th level"
Why do you think that every npc spellcaster has 18+ in their score?
Npcs are suposed to be realistic, not a perfection.
I think we just come from different paradigms and I see that mine is not the common one.
But my thought would be, that it is unrealistic for someone with poor caster stats to A) choose to be a caster at all and B) constitute an actual threat to typical PCs.
Anyway, it's probably due to my history of creating opposition myself. I've always built NPCs as characters--it's what I like most about running D&D (and the inability to do so is what I hate most about running 4e).
If you come to my game expecting fighting men to have less than 16 Strength and Wizards to have less than 18 Int, you're going to be in for a world of hurt.
What do you consider a "poor" casting stat?
...That is an absolutely horribly built character. I don't understand at all.
Such a character is so crappy, I can't imagine they're much of a threat anyway. You could probably have just Webbed or Glitterdusted him and he'd have been useless anyway...
Actually, the intention was for him to cast a bunch of ray touch attacks (no save) and a few summons while we were dealing with the mooks in the way (narrow hall), then use expeditious retreat to run away and hit us later. It also had pretty good saves. It wasn't the BBEG, it was a mid level to wear us down a bit and use up some resources.
Our wiz used ToI with spectral hand and he was suddenly about a 3rd level fighter with little armor. He was weaker than the mooks except for his good saves.|
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You really think a sorcerer with 15 cha is that much easier than a sorc with 18 cha? The difference is +2 on the DC to save against their spells, and one extra 3rd level spell. I think terrain, choice of spells for the sorcerer, tactics used in battle, what other bad guys the PCs are fighting besides the sorcerer, etc are all bigger factors. Heck, random chance in die rolls is more likely to impact the outcome of that fight than the extra cha points.
Optimization is over-rated. Some amount of optimization is a good idea, but saying that a 3 point bump in a stat is THAT big a deal just isn't realistic.
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@mplindustries
"I think we just come from different paradigms and I see that mine is not the common one.
But my thought would be, that it is unrealistic for someone with poor caster stats to A) choose to be a caster at all and B) constitute an actual threat to typical PCs.
Anyway, it's probably due to my history of creating opposition myself. I've always built NPCs as characters--it's what I like most about running D&D (and the inability to do so is what I hate most about running 4e).
If you come to my game expecting fighting men to have less than 16 Strength and Wizards to have less than 18 Int, you're going to be in for a world of hurt."
There are those that dabble into magics mainly to learn a trick or two. As such npcs cant understand what your 18 Int / Wis / Cha is, but you know that already.
So why wouldnt there be npcs with 12 Int, 14 Wis or whatnot?
In most of cases they are multiclassed most likely with lower scores.
Edit: Its actually more unrealistic to have PCs with all those min/maxed builds rather then having realistic NPCs.