Any love for the Myrmidarch Magus?
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In the discussion of everything else, a question I asked earlier in the thread was ignored, so I'll ask again. This is for my human archer bard for Pathfinder Society.You really ought to start your own thread, in the appropriate forum, and not try and hi-jack someone else's thread. That's why your question got ignored.
But to answer it, precise shot. One attack at no penalty is better than 2 attacks at -6.
This is a thread about optimizing archers, isn't it?
At level 1, human fighters can get all 3 of the these feats, but for every other build we're discussing, deciding what order to take these feats is a relevant question. It may just be a side question to the main discussion, but it's not like I'm branching into a completely different topic of conversation.
Anyway, thanks for your response.
Any love for the Myrmidarch Magus?
They really don't work as archers though. They can't use spellcombat with ranged spellstrike and its limited to ranged touch attacks. Essentially it's a worse version of the arcane archer ability.
In short, there really is no love for the myrmidarch.
Dayer is a master archer optimized for high attack and damage. Every arrow that lands promises more damage to the next, and he rarely misses. He laughs in the face of high hit points, high AC, and high damage reduction.
Enjoy!
First off im sure your correct but can you explain why his weapon training gives him +6 bonus on attack and damage rolls with longbows? Shouldnt it only be +4?
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Are you just rolling up a bad MF Archer or are you wanting story to go with it.
Have that help determine your class and alignment.
It's all on preferance.
I've made a Zen Archer vs Ranger vs Fighter builds for myself - all equal in my book. Just a little different play style. I went with Zen Archer for flavor for my character story.
Make sure you get a composite long bow if you have strength mod, and have a scroll or wand of "Gravity Bow" to cast your self if you focus on UMD or have a UMD freindly party member.
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Improved Unarmed Strike and Perfect Strike are not "archery" feats.
I'll grant you the Perfect Strike one though, since they specifically modify the way it works for the Zen Archer.
If all you're comparing is feats, then the zen archer gets more than the fighter all the way from 1st to 19th level. At 20th a human fighter has 22 to a human zen archer's 21. This doesn't include the monk's ranged flurry, which is equivalent to an entire ranged feat tree in itself - one the core fighter can't access. The hidden feats - monk bonusses and 'class abilities' - are one of several reasons the zen archer is excellent.
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As to whether AC is relevant - yes, I think it is. Look at Lyu: he can be up there in melee, giving flanking bonusses (courtesy of monastic unarmed headbutts), sucking up attacks, and nothing much can touch him. He doesn't incur, he doesn't fail saves, he doesn't get hit, he doesn't get maneuvered. He only gets better at this from here on in.
And re the Vital Strike feats - they're giving Lyu 51 damage with a standard action, 153 on a crit, and with 3 attack rolls, two confirmation rolls and a 19-20 threat range, he has a regular chance of seeing that. In addition, in two levels he'll be attaching Stunning Fist to this, with a sky-high DC. So, for example: surprise round stunning Improved Vital Strike, foe does zilch, then Lyu finishes it off with a flurry against stunned AC.
Dayer is a tidy package, for sure, but what I wanted to illustrate here is that (a) zen archers are much more offensive than you might expect, and (b) they're defensively so strong that nothing much can touch them.
On the offense side, I'll just reiterate that Lyu does 203 damage to Dayer's 177 (with Hammer the Gap and his boots active) when all attacks hit, and more on a standard too.
The only mistake I can see in my post above is that Dayer gets three uses per day of his reroll, and it applies to any archery roll. Fifteen improved Perfect Strikes is still superior to that.
On the offense side, I'll just reiterate that Lyu does 203 damage to Dayer's 177 (with Hammer the Gap and his boots active) when all attacks hit, and more on a standard too.
IF they all hit. What were their respective attack bonuses again?
I like putting Monkey Style on Zen Archers. To better troll enemy archers.
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On the offense side, I'll just reiterate that Lyu does 203 damage to Dayer's 177 (with Hammer the Gap and his boots active) when all attacks hit, and more on a standard too.IF they all hit. What were their respective attack bonuses again?
You've got Lyu's sheet up here, RD, if you want to check. They're plenty high enough for the average CR15 AC30, and Lyu is getting a greater chance to threaten regardless, because his first arrow is at 30%. You asked if someone could post an archer with greater than 150 damage at 15th: Lyu is that archer. Indeed, the chances are solid that he gets a crit each round, and he does well over 200 then (232 with six hits of which one crits, iirc).
Have a look at Lyu's feats, too. He gets substantially more than Dayer at 15th, just as he will at any other level bar 20th. He gets almost all the archery feats he'll ever want, most of them 'for free' (ie as monk feats/class abilities; not really free at all, of course), several of them before they're available to a fighter (and very nice the likes of Point Blank Master, Improved Precise Shot and Pinpoint Targetting are, too). Improved Snap Shot would be nice, but Lyu could have taken that (and Combat Reflexes) had he really wanted it. I considered it. Greater Focus/Specialisation would be good too, of course, but the zen archer more than makes up the damage with 2d10 arrows and extra attacks.
I'll say again, too, that not having Point Blank Master is a bit of a loss for Dayer. What do you do when someone closes him down?
Which brings us back to the relevance of Lyu's AC, and of positioning.
Here's the thing. Lyu doesn't care about positioning. He doesn’t incur, he ignores cover, he doesn’t get hit. He’s not a conventional tank: he’s more of a sci-fi hovertank, being so mobile. Nothing much damages him, and nothing much can stop him getting off a full attack.
Evil Badguy looses his huge battlebeast: it charges Lyu the zen archer, closing him down. Does Lyu have to draw his longsword, or withdraw? No, sir: Lyu avoids the charge and flurries seven arrows into the battlebeast’s face, hitting six times, critting once, for 232 damage.
Evil Badguy commands his minions to surround Lyu. Lyu ignores them. They can’t hit him, grapple him, or sunder his bow, and he can shoot Badguy through their soft cover, without penalty, without incurring.
Evil Badguy casts domination, Lyu saves. Badguy casts black tentacles, Lyu wades through them unharmed. Badguy casts fog cloud, deeper darkness, invisibility; Lyu ignores them. Badguy raises a wall of force: Lyu drops the last minion with 51 damage (with almost a 1-in-3 chance of threatening 153), then dimension doors through the wall, or turns ethereal and earthwalks under it. Badguy flees, Lyu increases his range and shoots him down.
Why does Lyu need the Vital Strike feats? Partly for the latter eventuality: he has two excellent mobility options that take up a move action. In either case he can use a standard attack beforehand. Partly also for surprise rounds, which, with high initiative and Perception, Lyu gets often. With a potential 153 damage - and stun, from 17th level - he can decide many battles before the normal rounds have even begun.
The zen archer’s two niches:
(1) Battlefield Uncontroller. The wizard controls the battlefield by placing obstacles, whether of flesh, force or arcane energy. The zen archer ignores them. He can make full attacks against his deadliest foes, regardless of their defensive tactics.
(2) Hovertank. The zen archer has a tank’s AC. To this he adds a monk’s saves and CMD, touch AC, and Spell Resistance. He can suck up not only conventional attacks, but also combat maneuvers and the spells, spell likes and supernaturals that are the banes of fighters. None of this mires him in melee. He can still shoot anywhere he wants, with or without moving to get there.
I like putting Monkey Style on Zen Archers. To better troll enemy archers.
Nice :)
I think Mantis Style is better at high levels, though, which is why Lyu has 3 ranks of Heal already in place. At 17th he takes Ability Focus (Stunning Fist, or stunning attack, if you prefer) and at 19th Mantis Style. With both feats, he has a DC36 stun at 20th when he decides to expend a swift action on it. This is about as high as DCs get at 20th level - I think a wizard gets the same on one spell with all feats and whatnot attached, and there's one beast in the Bestiary that can also muster a DC36.
Zen Monk > Sohei Archer Monk?
Or did it get an errata to prevent Flurry + Rapid Shot + Many Shot?
Anyone got a build?
None that I've seen. I haven't built one myself, though, as I kind of expect it to be corrected. It'd still be interesting to see how one compares. If you want to compare it to Lyu, he's 15th level, built with normal wbl and 20pb.
Losses at a glance: -6.5 damage per arrow from base dice (d8 vs 2d10), dimension door, quivering palm, slow fall (which Lyu turns into Barkskin, so a sohei would want to be losing something else)
Gains: +4 bow attack and damage from Weapon Training and gloves of duelling
Just a side note on the perfect strike crit chance, its not actually 30%. On 2d20 there are 400 possible results of which 77 are critical threats, this results in a crit chance of 19.25% rather than 20.
Now with 3d20 the number of results is truely huge, and the number of results is a cube of the potential die rolls for each die with the chances of rolling all 3 as 20's being unlikely but possible, this also results in the number being less than 30% chance to critical. More likely in the region of 27%...
Due to the way perfect strike works when your rolling two dice your more likely to hit, score a threat and fail to confirm than you are by rolling a single d20 normally and rolling to confirm. Infact without critical focus you will probably crit less depending on your to hit bonus and your target ac. Rolling three dice lowers the chance of this happening but realistically your more as likely to roll 20, 1, 1, than you are to roll 20, 20, 20.
Its very complicated without a spreadsheet but i'd say perfect strike with three dice is going to be better than just rolling one die for getting crit threats but may not actually confirm as often as the fighter build. I'll run some math at work when its quiet and post again tomorrow.
Tbh if you are playing in a ap or your gm mostly uses evil foes i think the best option is the Archerdin.
Just a side note...
I'd be keen to know all that.
My sense has been that rolling 2d20 and having to use the lower roll to confirm must reduce the chance of confirmation - but very slightly, and in a hard to pin down way.
Three rolls, with one of two lower discards to confirm...my gut feeling is that this raises the chance of confirmation, and not so slightly, either - two rolls are two rolls, after all.
So imp Perfect Strike is a much better deal than basic PS. Basic improves attacks and threats but very slightly at the expense of confirmation. Advanced PS improves all three, especially since the zen archer can gain Improved Crit as the same level.
Any love for the Myrmidarch Magus?They really don't work as archers though. They can't use spellcombat with ranged spellstrike and its limited to ranged touch attacks. Essentially it's a worse version of the arcane archer ability.
In short, there really is no love for the myrmidarch.
Of course they can use Spell Combat and ranged spellstrike together,in fact they actually have to ,read the description of ranged spellstrike again.
Ranged Spellstrike (Su)At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
K, read it. Now what?
Spell combat still demands a one handed melee weapon. It's rather specific about this. And you can use spellstrike separately from spell combat normally.
No, just read it it says:"At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.".If you can´t use it with spell combat you can´t make a full attack with spellstrike.
I have played a myrmidarch before and there was no discussion whatsoever.It´s just common sense,the 11th level advancement of ranged spellstrike requires you to make a full attack action in conjunction with spellstrike.That is only possible with spell combat,ergo a myrmidarch can use spell combat with bows and other ranged weapons.It´s the only way he could even use his class feature.
I have played a myrmidarch before and there was no discussion whatsoever.It´s just common sense,the 11th level advancement of ranged spellstrike requires you to make a full attack action in conjunction with spellstrike.That is only possible with spell combat,ergo a myrmidarch can use spell combat with bows and other ranged weapons.It´s the only way he could even use his class feature.
Or, you know, he could use a repeating crossbow, or thrown weapons with Quick Draw...
No he couldn´t.Spell Combat for the normal Magus only works with melee Weapons.So you have to redefine it anyhow.
No he couldn´t.Spell Combat for the normal Magus only works with melee Weapons.So you have to redefine it anyhow.
Funny how many melee weapons can be thrown...
No he couldn´t.Spell Combat for the normal Magus only works with melee Weapons.So you have to redefine it anyhow.Funny how many melee weapons can be thrown...
Seriously??????
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Seriously??????No he couldn´t.Spell Combat for the normal Magus only works with melee Weapons.So you have to redefine it anyhow.Funny how many melee weapons can be thrown...
Seriously. Spell combat makes no mention of melee attacks, only of melee weapons. A club, dagger, handaxe, throwing hammer, or spear doesn't stop being a melee weapon just because you threw it. You may think it weird, but that's the RAW.
I don´t even know what to say to this but I have given up on trying to convince people on using common sense as its a hopeless endeavour.
EDIT: (generally spoken of course)
It looks like their spell combat is unchanged, but spellstrike allows for ranged, and at 11, a full attack with ranged spellstrike.
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Dang it, I really want to build a rogue archer, but I'm seeing less and less reason to do so, except that the concept, for reasons I don't have time to get into, really needs to be a rogue. Any ideas on a rogue build/maybe split level between rogue and fighter? It's a team of predominantly rogues and he needs to be able to rogue it up for the talents to make the game work, but I don't sit right making a character who can't really hold up to the people around him.
Hmm. I'd Go Bard or Ranger, and if you want some more roguishness, look into the archetypes.
Sleet:
3 people think you are wrong.
Is there not a chance you are mistaken?
NO,NO,NO not a chance,never:)
Are you saying that they SHOULD be able to use Spell Combat + Spell Strike with a ranged weapon else they would suck?
This was not my point, my point was that he has a class feature
and some poeple seem to think he can´t even use it.I do agree it would make more sense if they could and would not be over powered. However it doesn't seem to say you can do so.
Well sometimes stuff gets overseen.It happens frequently.The myrmidarch is about using ranged weapons and the myrmidarch description says "the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, BOW, and armor".Obvius stuff is obvious and you can´t talk that away by citing the mighty RAW,because you know what....RAW is incomplete sometimes and you always need to make some interpretation.
I'm not 100% sure of my maths as extrapolating out 3d20 rolls to each of the 8000 possible results was hard work and i quit. I think that there are 2396 results of 3d20 that would result in a critical threat which is 29.95% so very close to 30%.
These figures are much better than a 2d20 perfect strike and on average the other two dice in the 3d20 roll will confirm at a much higher rate than than the 2d20 roll. If you need to roll an 11 to confirm (50% chance) the the 2d20 roll will actually confirm on slightly less than half of the rolls that cause a threat or 12% of the time approximately.
Compared to a standard roll who will crit and confirm about 5% of the time with a normal attack using those figures a 2d20 perfect strike will actually crit twice as often with an 11% crit confirmation rate. On 3d20 the chance of confirming a crit could be as much as 19% if my somewhat dodgy math holds up.
In conclusion parfect strike is truely immense for critting IF you already have a decent to hit chance, if you need to roll more than a 15 to confirm your chance to actually crit decreases dramatically if your only rolling 2d20 but rolling 3d20 is pretty much always better unless you need a straight to hit.
The biggest problem with using this info to compare the fighter and monks respective dpr including crits is its that complicated its untenable to calculate, overall i think the monk will crit more reliably on its first attack when using perfect strike however the fighters overall high to hit bonus will even the dpr calculation out over a full attack. Also perfect strike is a limited resource which the monk can use a lot but not all day.
Overall i love the monk for its defense and personally i think it is a more optimal character than the fighter but in a pure dpr calculation i suspect they are near enough equal.
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Well sometimes stuff gets overseen.It happens frequently.The myrmidarch is about using ranged weapons and the myrmidarch description says "the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, BOW, and armor".Obvius stuff is obvious and you can´t talk that away by citing the mighty RAW,because you know what....RAW is incomplete sometimes and you always need to make some interpretation.Then we are not having a real disagreement.
Take another example:
Sohei monk is proficient with Light Armour but cannot Flurry when wearing it. Does this mean the Sohei can automatically Flurry with Armour? If not then he has a class feature he cannot use.
You can house rule things. But don't say he CAN use something when the RAW do not allow it. It just confuses people.
What the rule SHOULD say is different to what it DOES say.
From what I understand you agree the RAW do not allow Spell Strike and Spell Combat with a bow.
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I guess you could argue that the off hand is free to cast whilst its not holding an arrow and thus you can use it. But again this is stretching the rules.
Nowhere does it say "The myrmidarch may use Spell Combat whilst wielding a bow". Therefore people are just pointing this out.
I am certain it would be a better archetype if it DID say this. But it does not. If I am wrong quote and bold where it DOES say it.
Otherwise RAW you are simply wrong.
But I think you are saying that the RAI SHOULD say "The myrmidarch may use Spell Combat whilst wielding a bow". I think few people would disagree with you.
The Sohei can flurry while in armour. It wasn't the intent of the designer, but by RAW he can.
Dayer and Deacon above can easily net 150+ damage per round at 15th-level. I'm doubting any single attack build can top that.
This an a couple of other comments on damage got me thinking...
It's not really a build and it is a one shot thing rather than per round... but a lvl 15 Luring Musketeer w/ Order of the Warrior, a +5 Double Hackbut, and Deadly Aim would do something starting at 264 pts dmg from one shot.
This assumes a crit, but the chances of that are REALLY high as it is an auto threat and would be against touch AC out to 150 ft.
2d12+5/x4 from Double Hackbut
+30 from 2 uses of Far Challenge
+8 from Deadly Aim
Which is: 2d12+42/x4
The ability gives max dmg from weapon so...
66x4=264
You could probably bump that up fairly significantly with out much effort.
Sean
What the rule SHOULD say is different to what it DOES say.
From what I understand you agree the RAW do not allow Spell Strike and Spell Combat with a bow.
Well, I agree that the archetype could need some clarification .That´s not to say that I´m wrong because I don´t think I am.But just look at the myrmidarch and you know how to use it, thats what I mean by "using common sense".You can´t just stupidly(no insult) read the rules.For instance the myrmidarch recommends three magus arcana that don´t even exist(lucky strike,precise prowess,stolen skill)
it´s RAW too, and its wrong.
Any love for the Myrmidarch Magus?They really don't work as archers though. They can't use spellcombat with ranged spellstrike and its limited to ranged touch attacks. Essentially it's a worse version of the arcane archer ability.
In short, there really is no love for the myrmidarch.
They should make viable Dex-based switch-hitters, but you'd have to dedicate a feat to Reach Spell and use spell blending to work up more options for the ranged spellstrike. Dropping out a reach ghoul touch or intensified reach shocking grasp arrow should be decent ranged DPS or control, and using cestus+longbow would let you switch to melee spell combat when needed.
I've worked one out but not played it, and it looks viable if not optimal.
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The Sohei can flurry while in armour.
Sohei does not modify the Flurry of Blows class ability, hence he cannot flurry in armor.
-- He simply has proficiency.
(Note that nothing prevents any ordinary monk from having a Quick Draw Shield and Folding Plate equipped (without being proficient in either), then making them poof away at the beginning of combat. (Not exactly useful while fighting, but it takes away the ambushed/flatfooted annoyance when you're charged by a pounce-monster in the surprise round).
If the sohei took Weapon Training Spear-group and likes to fight on critter-back with Spirited Charge, then he's not flurrying anyway (meaning armor proficiency isn't wasted on the class).
Seriously. Spell combat makes no mention of melee attacks, only of melee weapons. A club, dagger, handaxe, throwing hammer, or spear doesn't stop being a melee weapon just because you threw it. You may think it weird, but that's the RAW.Seriously??????No he couldn´t.Spell Combat for the normal Magus only works with melee Weapons.So you have to redefine it anyhow.Funny how many melee weapons can be thrown...
Actually, the instant you try to throw it, it becomes a ranged weapon, provokes AoO, and follows other rules. It's a melee weapon when used to melee, not when used to throw.
==Aelryinth
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The Sohei can flurry while in armour.Sohei does not modify the Flurry of Blows class ability, hence he cannot flurry in armor.
-- He simply has proficiency.
Ahem. Monks can Flurry in armor by RAW. I think the only things they lose are Fast Movement and Monk AC.
The D&D rules are TERRIBLY ambiguous. They could do with a proper rule book like Magic or something...
I agree with you. Though I refuse to acknowledge the current edition of the official M:tG Rules. I'm still very bitter about the maximum amount of life, and the removal of Mana Burn. I dont play in tournaments, and I refuse to play with those two rules changes. > Yes, I have several decks focused on those two rules mechanics. lol.
D&D Rules are ambiguous, but the purpose they serve makes them often need to be interpreted like M:tG rules; so the vague rules end up needing to be read as though they were well defined. Thats often why they need errata.
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
I find myself doing this a lot lately.
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I find myself doing this a lot lately.
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Yes, and the Sohei's Armour and Shield Proficiencies are different; they do not have that text saying they lose flurry of blows while wearing armour, therefore they don't lose it.
try a rogue 3/ myrmidarch (magus) 7/ arcane trickster 10 ? rely on touch spells heavily along with that traits and feats that improve your caster level. Personally I'm in love with the intensified shocking grasp so you can get that intensified, empowered shocking grasp. you want something thats viscious in one shot there you go. 15d6 shocking damage + 7d6 sneak attack + Weapon Damage + Int Modifier
I'm pretty sure you can't do normal touch spells through a ranged weapon with myrmidarch, only ranged touch spells. I'f I'm wrong, let me know.
Yes, and the Sohei's Armour and Shield Proficiencies are different; they do not have that text saying they lose flurry of blows while wearing armour, therefore they don't lose it.I find myself doing this a lot lately.
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
An interesting thought. But the sohei in general has a lot that's inconsistent so I'll take it for the grain of salt that it is.
Besides the poster in question was referring to a normal monk.
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Yes, and the Sohei's Armour and Shield Proficiencies are different; they do not have that text saying they lose flurry of blows while wearing armor, therefore they don't lose it.
The text of Sohei doesn't have to say they lose it because it's already forfeit by the base class rules.
For example, CRB monks have proficiency in shortswords, hand-axes and javelins -- but do not get to flurry with them. Therefore, there is no precedent for any rationale which asserts that a monk archetype fan Flurry with a piece of equipment simply because he has gained proficiency in it.
A 6th-level Sohei has new rules indicating he may Flurry with any weapon he has Weapon Training in. Equivalent text regarding any new-found ability to Flurry while wearing armor is conspicuously absent.
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The Sohei archetype's armour and weapon proficiency replaces the core proficiency: that's what an archetype does.
Weapon Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the brass knuckles*, cestus*, club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, spear and temple sword*. Monks can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with brass knuckles.
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
The new proficiency is not additive because that's not how archetypes work. It outright replaces the old one; therefore the Sohei does not lose flurry of blows while wearing armour.
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I find myself doing this a lot lately.
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
... Huh. look at that. I didnt think to read the proficiencies, I read the descriptions in the individual abilities, and flurry was the only one that didnt mention the armor thing.
It's been a while since I played a monk. lol
Also, I think Mergy may have a point. Archetypes replace things, not add to them.