Hi All,
Every so often one of my players will do something really in-character or really clever that merits some reward. So I'll give him/her a few XP.
Equally often one of my players will do something out-of-character or annoying that will merit some sort of punishment. So I'll deduct a few XP points to teach that player a lesson.
Are there any other ways to reward/punish roleplaying? I've heard about using plot twist cards as a reward. Any other ideas?
Thanks in advance.
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Reese's Peanutbutter Cups.
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My suggestion is don't do it.
People will tend to play the type of game that they enjoy. If you are punishing them instead of helping them have fun... well, I am not sure that sounds like an enjoyable game.
And I know that there are a lot of people who like to reward good RP with XP, but it doesn't make sense to me. Again, if people are playing in a way they don't enjoy what is the point? Are you just trying to get people who care about XP only to game your way?
For me... RP is it's own reward. If you and other players at the table are RPing and it looks fun it will draw the others in or it just isn't their thing. If you don't want to play with people who don't enjoy the exact same aspects of the game then move on.
I know this comes across a little harsh, and I am sorry for that, it isn't my intent to single you out but more rail against a trend I have seen.
Sean Mahoney
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Bacon.
My suggestion is don't do it.
People will tend to play the type of game that they enjoy. If you are punishing them instead of helping them have fun... well, I am not sure that sounds like an enjoyable game.
And I know that there are a lot of people who like to reward good RP with XP, but it doesn't make sense to me. Again, if people are playing in a way they don't enjoy what is the point? Are you just trying to get people who care about XP only to game your way?
For me... RP is it's own reward. If you and other players at the table are RPing and it looks fun it will draw the others in or it just isn't their thing. If you don't want to play with people who don't enjoy the exact same aspects of the game then move on.
I know this comes across a little harsh, and I am sorry for that, it isn't my intent to single you out but more rail against a trend I have seen.
Sean Mahoney
+1
You deduct xp?! O.O
You, sir, are a "jerk GM."
You deduct xp?! O.O
You, sir, are a "jerk GM."
I think he was just saying that adding xp to some PCs is kinda-sorta equivalent to deducting xp from the others.
Hero points, man.
Somethings I have done in the past:
1) Discounts on gear if they do well with a contact
2) Introduce them to a new contact that seeks them out
3) Give a miscellaneous bonus on a skill. Depending on circumstance, this could be temporary or permanent and it could be circumstantial (+2 to Diplomacy with elves)
4) Bonus feat that affects skills or gives a unique ability (bonus to swim in armor)
5) Land or a home
Think outside the box. And don't punish. It's not your character and you shouldn't be penalizing. If you feel the need, give a penalty to an appropriate skill check at the appropriate time.
I think he was just saying that adding xp to some PCs is kinda-sorta equivalent to deducting xp from the others.You deduct xp?! O.O
You, sir, are a "jerk GM."
He said deduct, man!
So I'll deduct a few XP points to teach that player a lesson.
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we have a best role-player vote at the end of the night, and depending on the level the person gets 14d hp no con or 1 extra skill point. we are now 5th level so it is 1d6 hp or 2 skill points that can be put above max rank or a randomly rolled low level magic item. it has made me try to rp better to get that stuff. but with some of our players they never win and never try and they seem happy the only rule is you can't vote for your self...
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i would say as far as punishing goes. I would just come up with an in game effect. So a player is interacting with someone in a wildly out of character way, have the reputation be spread that the character is unusable, and possibly insane, since they obviously have multiple personalities.
Things like that.
then the problem is solved :) If they really want to have a hard time getting anything done as their reputation spreads then that is their choice.
I am all about making it part of the game.
I think offering rewards for role playing and world immersion are a good thing. Much like how XP acknowledges a players contribution to combat, so does a little in game reward acknowledge a players effort in bringing the game to life. I would taking things away from players and definitely wouldn't deduct XP though unless a player is being destructive to group fun.
I don't give my players xp rewards for good roleplay or world immersion as I think the better rewards are in game ones. They don't have to be big rewards as I've found that a little bit of hero worship towards a PC from NPCs really goes a long way towards bonding PCs to the NPCs and the game world.
In game rewards I've used that have worked for me are:
* Free lodgings for low level characters and/or low cost non-magical items
* NPC hero worship of PCs for heroic/noble acts (can simply be a group of kids following a PC around or seen around town mimicing/idolising a PC....naming something/someone after a PC -a saved couple name their child after a PC or an inventor names her invention...etc)
* honourary titles and/or land
* forward reputation - an npc saying, "Oh I've heard of you...you saved that little village....defeated the Ogre King...etc)
* NPC coming up to PCs with vital information for free
* NPC assisting PCs in ways that reduce DCs or time to get something done (eg: research time, gather information, diplomacy, etc)
Mechanical rewards should be small and I don't mind using the skill bump feats or small little bonus to specific situations/conditions (eg: +2 bonus to acrobatics/dex checks to avoid slipping on wet jungle terrain). I like to tie these to an NPC well treated or if the PCs expend consumable and non-renewable resources (eg: gold/wealth, scrolls and potions) on NPCs for no direct return.
Back when I was playing with a group that used XP, my GM would award a few extra XP at the end of the night to the best roleplayers. Usually about half the group would get the bonus. I found that personally I roleplayed a lot better when there was a potential reward involved (I do enjoy roleplaying, but I'm normally not motivated enough to bother), and I went from a rollplayer to one of the best roleplayers in the group quite quickly. YMMV of course, but for a certain personality type (mine!) it's a very effective system.
When I GMed (which I admit I only did briefly, as changing schedules pulled that group apart) I found that these moments usually came up during social/skill related situations, so I would grant rerolls or small bonuses to checks if somebody pulled out something that was particularly in character, clutch, or just made everybody at the table laugh.
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IMO, the best reward for good roleplaying is more opportunities for good roleplaying.
experience, food, items, and/or more options to flesh out your character.
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To reward individuals for good roleplaying, I might:
- Have them find/receive an additional bit of treasure. This is good for things like a PC interacting well with an allied organization; say a PC paladin goes above and beyond in their actions to serve their church, even if at increased personal risk. Next time they see a representative of their church, they might, say, give the paladin a free healing service or further enchant his armor or give him an extra supply of potions he otherwise would not have received.
- Provide them more information that they were looking for than I otherwise would have given -- if they're good at puzzling stuff out, I don't mind skipping a step in the plot because they're doing a good job.
- Give them a bonus to a relevant skill check. This can go a few ways. For example, if a player really plays out and delivers a beautiful speech made to an NPC, but I need a numeric Diplomacy result for some reason, I will give them a significant bonus to that Diplomacy result, or allow them a re-roll if they roll low. In a different situation -- maybe by really good observation or deduction, they figure out the nature of the outsiders they are fighting, using of course IC knowledge only. I'll give them a bonus to their next relevant Knowledge Planes check. And so on.
- Anything else that makes them feel rewarded for a job well done but also helps either strengthen the party IC or adds to the story.
If they play very poorly (which is seldom a problem for me), a foe might get a bonus to a non-combat skill check (frex, if they really handwave a Bluff attempt, I mean really just half-ass their roleplay of the encounter when I know they can do better--always bearing in mind what my players are capable of--maybe the enemy will get a bonus to Sense Motive), or they may be left in the dark about a story-relevant situation, or maybe the church just doesn't have any potions of healing to spare right now.
I never dole out XP individually, because not only does it feel an empty reward to me, where I would rather have a story relevant bonus, I also want the party leveling at the same rate. I do give the party as a whole roleplaying XP though, but normally at the end of major plot points than in bits and pieces.
I haven't used hero points in the past, but certainly I agree with other posters that that's another good external, mechanical "cookie" to offer players in lieu of XP.
Never deduct.
Stick with rewarding the actions you like but otherwise give everyone the same XP.
I deduct when players do something totally out of character (such as when a lawful-good character does something chaotic-evil or such), and only enough to make a point (e.g. 5 XP). So far no one's complained.
Has anyone tried using the plot cards as a reward?
Has anyone tried using the plot cards as a reward?
I feel that I've heard of plot cards before but I can't quite remember what they are. Can you please enlighten me? It sounds interesting.
Let your players' actions have their own consequences. By deducting XP, you are breaking character.
If a PC says something inappropriate, have NPCs react badly. Have rumours start to spread about how the PC normally acts, and have NPCs have preconceived expectations. When a PC acts out-of-character, either they're an imposter, or mentally ill, or under some kind of compulsion. Make bad things happen.
To be clear, bonus XP is usually uncalled-for too. Usually in-game situations resolve better when in-character roleplay happens. Still, occasional rewards won't hurt much. OOC punishment though just defeats your purpose.
So what kind of out-of-character and annoying things are we talking about?
I'm not necessarily opposed to a penalty system for really poor or outright lack of roleplaying, as Pathfinder is a roleplaying game. To not want penalties just seems puddy pansy-pants to me. "Aw, c'mon, ref - don't be a jerk ref, just because #47 was off-sides! You'll just discourage him!" Fail!! Games have both rewards and penalties.
Anyway, you have to be careful with RP penalties in a game like Pathfinder. If you're going to use them, how do you make certain that you're making the right call, as opposed to simply disagreeing about what would and wouldn't be "in-character." To take the other side, the player is who defines their PC's "character," so how can a GM accurately adjudicate that PC's personality boundaries?
So, help me understand what sort of "roleplaying infractions" we're talking about here.
Never ever deduct. People are going to play the way they want to play. I would be extemely wary of deducting anything from specific players for any reason short of disrupting the game, and at thatpoint, it's better to go for a one-on-onedisucussion with them.
By the same token I also tend to be wary of giving individual rewards as well. It may make players feel as though favortism occurs, even if isn't intentional.
Everyone contributes to the game in their own way. Our group has one player who contributes very little to role-playing encounters, but we welcome him back, each time. Everyone else has their reasons, but for me, I don't judge how others enjoy d&d.
Besides which, he's my friend, and the last thing I want to do is make him uncomfortable.
Reward good rp in and out of character. Xp out of character and favorable npc treatment, items or whatever in character. I have found that a firm . . . you have no knowledge of that . . . takes care most out of character issues of the meta-game type. For blunders in charcter that are out of character or whatever I deal with in character. Just last night I had a charcter who missed the previous week while catching him up (he had been left in town) I explained danger one of the other PC's his in character sister was in as well as his own prediciment (limited medication for his alment and the cure was in the opposite direction). In the past he has expressed a close relation ship with his sister and is good. So it was out of character for him. The woman that gave him the warning slapped him the healer that gave him the limited supply of medication pulled it back and walked out mumbling about finding a better place for the medication. He was in no real danger, but he knows the action had consequences. I would have not reacted that way for a character who had displayed only selfish tendancies or was neutral or evil.
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I once had a DM force me to make cards that said "In Character" and "Out of Character" so he'd know when I was joking around and when I was serious about my character's actions. The same DM used to sit a bottle of Vodka on the table and take a swig whenever someone did something crazy/stupid. That was a fun game. I don't necessarily recommend either of those strategies by the way, my point is that sometimes highlighting bad roleplaying goes a long way to fixing the issue, punishment is often unnecessary.
EDIT: I should point out that the drinking was not effective, and I would not recommend it, as all it essentially did was invent a drinking game where only the DM ever had to drink. The signs were effective though.
I adjust the DC of checks for good/bad roleplaying. A particularly nicely phrased diplomacy check typically eases the target DC by 2, likewise crappy roleplaying can make the DC increase by 2.
There's a bit of a mechanical crossover here as well, as I allow skill cross interaction, so for example an aid check for stealth often doesn't make sense - but in some circumstances I allow aid checks in the form of bluff checks, or perform (oratory) or the like.
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Award a different type of point. You can call it action points, hero points, RP points, the name doesn't matter.
Then let them use the points to bargain for rerolls, bonuses, feats, or what ever you feel comfortable giving the players in exchange. I have a similar system set up in my own game and it really is working in encouraging the players to roleplay well.
However, I would never, ever truly punish a player for anything. Everyone does stupid stuff, and most of the time you should let them. If it is silly things, like my players are prone to do (standing on tables and chopping chairs in half, for example) let them do it but role play out the reactions of the NPCs. If they are doing flat out idiotic actions or being really big jerks in RPs then you can place a few in game penalties like lower reputation, guards not respecting them, more expensive drinks in taverns, shop owners being difficult with them, or even children being afraid of them. Be careful though, you too can go overboard with this and end up making the game unfun for the players because this can turn into punishment if done too often.
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You asked about the plot twist cards. They are really fun to use, and can be effective. You should only let players hold one at a time though, as holding multiple cards can end up really messing with your game. Also, set limits on how to use them. I once used them in a modern game and a player used one of his to have a pizza delivery guy show out in the middle of combat. The pizza ended up being thrown onto someone's face. I enjoyed the event but some other GMs might find that a bit too much for their games.
I agree that it is not appropriate to punish players via things such as XP penalties. I'm a GM, not a babysitter.
I used to use a system that links action point rewards to player-defined roleplaying goals. I worked quite well, IMO.
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I once had a two brothers in my game. When the younger one acted out of character his big bro would yank his nipple. I always got a chuckle because the younger brother was a slow learner.
Hero points, man.
Hero points (see Advanced Player's Guide).
Hero points is the way. This will allow the good RPer to gain a few extra actions based off of him staying in character. Never penalize someone for bad RP as some people aren't as good at it as the rest. The idea is just about having fun. If everyone is having fun it's all good. Maybe seeing the good RPer being able to be more heroic through extra Hero points the bad ones will try harder. It's still all relative to the player though. Also try to avoid 'the good RPers get extra xp or cooler items' as you'll create a divide between players and not just characters.
I follow Irulesmost, DM_aka_Dudemeister, and Khrysaor's advice. Paizo designed hero points for quick on-the-spot rewards.
My long-term rewards are more subtle. I adjust the adventure to give more opportunities for the player to show off the good roleplaying. Or the poor roleplaying. The player characters are the center of the world and it revolves around their actions.
The wizard set himself up as a historian of ancient lore, eventually taking the Lore Master prestige class. It was luck that the main villain of the prewritten adventure path was an ancient evil guy returned from the dead. It was deliberate planting by me that his high-powered minions relied on ancient relics that the wizard had read about. He knew the relic's weaknesses.
The paladin of Iomedae follows the simple philosophy of "It's evil, kill it," despite other party members negotiating with secret allies who are evil. I provide him with opportunities to encounter those allies after the secret meetings and beat on them before they make an escape. Thus, the rest of the party has more trouble arranging the next secret meeting. Last game session, one evil enemy used a bait-and-switch trick to have the paladin shoot arrows at an innocent. The player roleplayed the paladin's anguish beautifully. That night Iomedae herself will appear in a dream to assure the paladin that the goddess knows it was a trick.
The rogue is distrustful of everything. That does limit his roleplaying interactions with NPCs, but I do give him early Perception and Sense Motive rolls to notice dangers before most characters would get their checks.
The druid who believed that hunting animals, even if he had plenty of food, was a good way of demonstrating his bond with nature and carried enough alchemical fire to burn down a forest was voted out of the party by the other players after a fiasco that killed a PC and an allied NPC. "You messed up and we don't trust you. You say you are a druid, but you don't act like one." In contrast, the rogue was also involved in the fiasco but he was not blamed at all. The druid's player was a clueless munchkin who slowed down the game and did not add anything effective to combat or social interactions, so we wanted him gone. Later, I needed an idiot villain, so I recreated that druid as an NPC and put him in that role.
Bacon.
That is an excellent idea, I will do that for one game. Cheap bacon is cheap, and it'll still taste like victory.
I give players an option, would you like more xp, or another reroll (we use rerolls)?
If they did something truly significant in game, there are also achievements and small bonuses (more damage against certain foes, situational bonuses).
Hi All,
Every so often one of my players will do something really in-character or really clever that merits some reward. So I'll give him/her a few XP.
Equally often one of my players will do something out-of-character or annoying that will merit some sort of punishment. So I'll deduct a few XP points to teach that player a lesson.
Are there any other ways to reward/punish roleplaying? I've heard about using plot twist cards as a reward. Any other ideas?
Thanks in advance.
Something I have also done, is make ability scores quite flexible. They rise and fall based on what the players do. So if a player makes a number of really stupid choices, you can remove a point of wisdom, if they refuse to talk to npcs, act just damn weird and lock themselves away to craft magic items, not being involved in the plot, -1 charisma. I've been a hikkikomori, I've been there.
Now before the hate spews forth, don't really care. More bonuses to ability scores are given then taken, but sometimes, a player will really deserve it. This way their character becomes shaped more by their actions. If they lose something, there is actually a good chance something else does go up. So be a weirdo cut-throat, well str up, charisma down. Almost get killed (but survive) because of no planning and missing the obvious, -1 int, +1 con. Some think this is terrible, but its tied to the characters people play. You try to objectively reward and punish them.
So what kind of out-of-character and annoying things are we talking about?
I'm not necessarily opposed to a penalty system for really poor or outright lack of roleplaying, as Pathfinder is a roleplaying game. To not want penalties just seems puddy pansy-pants to me. "Aw, c'mon, ref - don't be a jerk ref, just because #47 was off-sides! You'll just discourage him!" Fail!! Games have both rewards and penalties.
Anyway, you have to be careful with RP penalties in a game like Pathfinder. If you're going to use them, how do you make certain that you're making the right call, as opposed to simply disagreeing about what would and wouldn't be "in-character." To take the other side, the player is who defines their PC's "character," so how can a GM accurately adjudicate that PC's personality boundaries?
So, help me understand what sort of "roleplaying infractions" we're talking about here.
That's not how it is,IMO.Think of it like this:instead of a player breaking the rules,they are instead using a different play style.That is why you shouldn't deduct XP.
Again,this is just my opinion.
I think you're assuming that I'm in favor of an XP penalty, which I'm not. That just unbalances party level. If I was going to use any type of penalty, it would be akin to the reverse of hero points.
The question is "what deserves this?"
The OP had a reply that referred to a LG toon doing something clearly CE. For glaring things like that, it goes beyond play style to possibly lazy, apathetic, or "it's just late and we need to call it because Brian's starting to get goofy from fatigue.". (guilty)
Again, I recommend careful thought on it, but if a player is just being a jackass and railroading the adventure, then slap some antihero points on him.
Shock collars and cookies. Give them each a shock collar to wear and bake cookies just before the game. When they do well give them a cookie. When they do poorly use the remote on the shock collar. It works very well. I mean really who doesn't like cookies? :)
If I weren't already married...
Shock collars and cookies. Give them each a shock collar to wear and bake cookies just before the game. When they do well give them a cookie. When they do poorly use the remote on the shock collar. It works very well. I mean really who doesn't like cookies? :)
You haven't tried my cookies. If you had, you'd know that your reward and punishment are reversed.
For what it's worth here's how I do it in my campaign.
I ask my players to write down notes during the game of role playing things they do that they think we're good. I don't want combat stuff just role playing.
I collect them after the game and when I'm calculating xp I award bonus points for the things they wrote down. Usually it's 5 or 10xp for an average role playing note and 20xp if it was something to do with their background or personal subplot.
Over time the players who hand in notes get an edge over the ones who don't and it makes everyone want to hand them in.
Hope this helps.
-Brian
Well, what sort of things are they doing? If they're RPing in a way that would piss someone off, then it may very well piss someone off. They lose a contact, or get banned from entering that store by the order of the guard. Basically, RP should get an RP reward or punishment. Punishment, mind you, is not the wrath of the DM Gods, but is a reasonable response that the characters would be capable of in the game world.
I use a lot of back story in game, usually doing lots of shout outs. Players often catch on and RP their moment, advancing their personal storyline. Flipped, troublemakers don't seem to find that moment in the spotlight. Most recently, the Rogue was being an a*s and was rewarded with no locks, traps, flanks or any spiffy featured scenes. The Sorcerer answered his whining with a terse, unprintable jab about his constant metagaming and stepping on the toes of other players. He has collared me at least a dozen times since, asking the same idiot questions. He hasn't been near as bad of late.
Just to bring up one that hasn't been mentioned, giving spontaneous casters an extra spell known can go a long way. An extra spell slot works for prepared casters. You could even give SLA's.