Hi there,
I need advice on how to kill or at least scare/challenge a paladin.
This guys is optimized and compared to the rest of the group (a rogue, a cleric, a wizard and a Cleric/sorcerer) who is less optimized i have a hard time challenging him without killing the rest of the group in the process.
Except for swim checks i have no clue how to kill him. He is the top of AC, HP, general SAVES.
Plz don't give me any "You shouldn't wanna kill your PCs". I just wanna give the rest of the group a chance to shine.
Any Ideas?
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Evil babies.
Do not kill your PC(s) on purpose, it sends all the wrong messages. Just plan some fights around his weaknesses (not all of them just one out of every three or four should be good).
Talk to the player about it ask him to maybe tone it down, take some feats that help in areas besides combat, etc.
What are his weaknesses? Well there are a few
-Mobility, hes probably wearing heavy armor and looking at 20ft movement speed. Factor in the armor check penalty and its not just swim checks, but climb, acrobatics, stealth, escape artist, are all taking a decent penalty for that heavy armor.
-Reflex save. Yes paladin's get a Cha bonus to saves, but his max dex is probably 1 and Reflex is his only bad save, exploit it. Shoot him with a fireball/lighting bolt, use some traps that require Ref saves, breath weapons, etc. CR 1 pit trap, paladin is stuck at the bottom trying to make a climb check with full plate while a level one sorcerer Kobold (either CR 1/3 or 1/2) takes pot shots with a crossbow he keeps casting true strike, then when the pally gets to the top, he runs.
Gimme the Race, and general build/stats and I guarantee anybody here can pick the build to pieces and maybe discover some mistakes.
As said i don't wan't to kill him, just find a weakness to exploit in challenging him.
He is lvl 7 Sune(FR) Paladin with a glaive and a Full plate.
The fact i that i can easily challenge him by throwing a bunch of trained achers on him, but the same archers could kill the rest of the group.
So i need a combat challenge that will be harder for the paladin than the rest of the groupe.
Hope that gives you the info you were looking for.
Wow you guys answer fast!
I dont have his files within reach, but from what i remember.
Human
19
12
14
10
7
16
Weapon prof(Glaive), lightning reflex, iron will, dodge, power attack. Something like that.
Skills: Diplomacy and a bit of ride knowlegde nobility.
Evil babies.
+1
As said i don't wan't to kill him, just find a weakness to exploit in challenging him.
He is lvl 7 Sune(FR) Paladin with a glaive and a Full plate.The fact i that i can easily challenge him by throwing a bunch of trained achers on him, but the same archers could kill the rest of the group.
So i need a combat challenge that will be harder for the paladin than the rest of the groupe.
Hope that gives you the info you were looking for.
Touch AC. Firearms, alchemist bombs, magic attacks that require attack rolls (scorching ray, acid arrow, etc.), a simple net (entangled is a pain and it wastes actions plus his escape artist sucks).
Can he see in the dark? if not start factoring in at least partial concealment when its dim light (20% miss chance).
He has reach so close the gap, if he doesn't have a backup weapon then that is his fault.
One of the main problems is most of your party members share similar weaknesses so most of the stuff you try and hit him with will also affect the other players just as badly, this cannot be avoided.
Rogue - Fort and Will save, AC and HP are probably on the lower end as well.
Wizard - HP, Fort and Reflex save, AC.
Cleric - Reflex save, and HP is likely on the lower end, bad mobility.
Sorcerer/Cleric - Reflex save and Fort is lower than usual, HP and likely bad mobility along with AC for the arcane spells.
Paladin - Ref save and mobility along.
Notice anything? Reflex save comes up 4/5 times and mobility 3/5 times. The only party member who really stands out is the rogue so if you are going to try to build some encounters around the other guys weaknesses you should probably try to cater to some of the rogue's strengths as well. Just remember not to throw too many encounters that exploit these weaknesses or your party will start to get frustrated and understandably upset.
Worse comes to worse, offer the rest of the party a chance to rebuild their characters perhaps they get a long break from missions or meet some mentors who agree to teach them. Maybe divine intervention from the paladin's god(dess) so that his(her) servant's companions are more up to speed. See if the paladin's player will help the other players build. Just allow me to reiterate and do not kill him.
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- Grappling. Brutal Pugilist Barbarian/Tetori Monk/Unarmed Fighter will do the trick.
- Enemies with reach.
- Enchantment spells.
- Archers.
- Non-evil creatures.
- Invisible monster.
- Combat maneuvers, again. Disarm, sunder, trip, drag, dirty trick, grapple.
- Illusions to waste attacks of opportunity on.
Oh, and DON'T KILL YOUR PLAYERS.
Especially because the reason is "they are effective". This paladin you showed is hardly "optimized", even though we can see he tried to fill holes in his build probably through a following roleplay.
Talk with the guy, explain that his pleasure hinders his fellow players's. Propose him to help them tweak their own characters to be better effective at their job, or at least to let some space for others to shine, even if it requires to explain to each player how he can contribute in specific situations until they are able to recognize them and act in the best, rewarding way.
just get a neutral flying caster to shoot a few enervations his way.
He's level 7? Entire plausible to fight a hired mercenary wizard who is level 7-8 who has access to fly and enervation
OK, It was never my intention to kill a player.
I misspoke.
For that i appologize
^^
You advice however is very useable.
Any thing else you might add?
I need advice on how to kill or at least scare/challenge a paladin.
This guys is optimized and compared to the rest of the group (a rogue, a cleric, a wizard and a Cleric/sorcerer) who is less optimized i have a hard time challenging him without killing the rest of the group in the process.
... I just wanna give the rest of the group a chance to shine.
If the paladin is optimized and the others aren't, then you're looking at a situation where the paladin is effectively a level higher than the rest of the party, in terms of character power.
Even if you manage to create one or two encounters that challenge the whole party equally, the underlying problem will still remain.
Also note that the power gap between optimized and non-optimized characters will only increase as the party levels up.
If this isn't acceptable to you, then you will probably need to work with the players--either get the paladin to tone it down, or get the other players to tone it up.
OK, It was never my intention to kill a player.
I misspoke.
For that i appologize^^
You advice however is very useable.
Any thing else you might add?
Well I don't know about how this guy plays his paladins, but my NG cleric of Sarenrae when fighting neutral creatures not engaged in evil activity usually tries to use nonleathal force (especially if the enemy has an Int below 3 and we are in their territory i.e. a bear in the woods). Sadly I take a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal with a lethal weapon and since a sap is a martial weapon, but your paladin can use it.
Just use archers with 50-ft. movement speed (such as centaurs or someone with magic). If they fire and move, fire and move, he won't be able to keep up in his heavy armor.
The other PCs, however, will be able to keep up either by charging or by returning fire with their own ranged capabilities (which your paladin seems to lack), allowing them a chance to shine over the paladin.
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Another idea is to focus on the other half of the equation.
If the paladin is so much more optimized that the rest of the party, I'd be curious as to why is the rest of the party less optimized than the paladin.
Are they skill-monkeys or faces? Putting the party thru an adventure based around investigation or social interaction will have the combat beast twiddling his thumbs while the others shine.
Are they trying to be just as powerful as the paladin, and just failing? Offer them a chance to 'respec' some ineffective choices in feats/skills. Maybe even have the paladin help them come up with ideas, if he's a league ahead of them in understanding the rules.
Are the cleric and cleric/sorcerer of different faiths than the paladin? Have those churches sponsor the next couple of adventures, and have them give all the info/expendables/reward to those characters, for them to disburse to the rest of the group.
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Just use archers with 50-ft. movement speed (such as centaurs or someone with magic). If they fire and move, fire and move, he won't be able to keep up in his heavy armor.
The other PCs, however, will be able to keep up either by charging or by returning fire with their own ranged capabilities (which your paladin seems to lack), allowing them a chance to shine over the paladin.
Or a cavalier.. with a mount with rideby attack, you'll end up with the same situation as the centaur archers. Getting hit every round, yet can't close to melee (and can't AoO as the NPC lances by, thanks to Ride By Attack)
Or a cavalier.. with a mount with rideby attack, you'll end up with the same situation as the centaur archers. Getting hit every round, yet can't close to melee (and can't AoO as the NPC lances by, thanks to Ride By Attack)Just use archers with 50-ft. movement speed (such as centaurs or someone with magic). If they fire and move, fire and move, he won't be able to keep up in his heavy armor.
The other PCs, however, will be able to keep up either by charging or by returning fire with their own ranged capabilities (which your paladin seems to lack), allowing them a chance to shine over the paladin.
Just be sure it is fast enough to outpace the paladin, but slow enough to be caught by the others.
i'd like to add that in my campaign we have a paladin who boasts his high AC and saves all the time, and will be the first to run into a room with monsters to be "the tank" (never mind that the inquisitor full round attacks from a distance and my arcane trickster hits on a 2 while invisible on the air)
anyway, whenever we encounter something that can fly, he's essentially grounded (Which results in him sitting in the sidelines complaining to the DM), also a big part of the Pally's AC is the plate, so touch attacks work well.
Also, going on that same line, something capable to doing combat maneuvers (someone mentioned a brutal pugilist...great start). Grapple the Pally, call it a day
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Or a cavalier.. with a mount with rideby attack, you'll end up with the same situation as the centaur archers..Just be sure it is fast enough to outpace the paladin, but slow enough to be caught by the others.
It's also begging for the GM to 'accidentally' leave the wheeling lancer in someone ELSE's charge reach besides the Paladin..
A politically powerful lawful evil NPC. Basically have him taunt the paladin until he does something fairly stupid to get himself arrested.
I do have to ask though, is this player (not character) being a problem? The thread title mentions "mocking paladin"...so is this guy actually being a jerk about having an optimized character? If he's not really being a jerk, what about just talking to him and saying "hey, you put this character together a lot better than the other party members, would you mind toning things down?" or talking to the rest of the party, and maybe trying to get them on par?
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First off we do not know if you are running some published materials or homebrew as that will make a big difference.
If its homebrew you are fine, if its published materials you have a few issues. Most published materials are based on a 4 man group of a 15, or 20 point buy, usually 15.You have 5 players with what appears to be a 35 point buy.That would pretty much raise their effective party level to +2 so if they are all 7 currently to a CR 9.
Paladins are probably the most survivable/killing machine characters, especially when facing evil opponents.
you might need to talk to the other players in your group and adjust their tactics if they are not performing up to a particular standard.I had to do this recently in my game as I have a Fighter who is a amazing damage dealer and very survivable with good feat choices.The Wizard and some other party members would sit back and think blasting or doing nothing was effective as the Fighter would mow down everything in his way.A few well placed and smartly played opponents on my part and they now realize they have a lot of weak spots in their group.
Then reflect upon the fact that maybe a 25 point buy was not a wise choice.
my NG cleric of Sarenrae when fighting neutral creatures not engaged in evil activity usually tries to use nonleathal force ... Sadly I take a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal with a lethal weapon and since a sap is a martial weapon, but your paladin can use it.
You might want to look into the trait, "Blade of Mercy" - lets you deal nonlethal with a scimitar at no penalty, and get +1 damage to boot.
Wow you guys answer fast!
I dont have his files within reach, but from what i remember.
Human
19
12
14
10
7
16
These stats don't make sense.
16+2(human)+1(4th level) = 10 points12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
16 = 10 points
Total = 23 points. He either has 3 points too many (assuming a 20 point buy) or 2 points too little (assuming a 25 point buy).
Another scenario:
16+2(human)+1(4th level) = 10 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
14+2(headband) = 5 points
Total = 18 points.
Finallly one more scenario
14+2(human)+1(4th level)+2(belt) = 5 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
14+2(headband) = 5 points
Total = 13 points.
When you've got a chance, find out how he's got these stats so high.
All this assumes he's level 7
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Wow you guys answer fast!
I dont have his files within reach, but from what i remember.
Human
19
12
14
10
7
16These stats don't make sense.
16+2(human)+1(4th level) = 10 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
16 = 10 pointsTotal = 23 points. He either has 3 points too many (assuming a 20 point buy) or 2 points too little (assuming a 25 point buy).
Another scenario:
16+2(human)+1(4th level) = 10 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
14+2(headband) = 5 pointsTotal = 18 points.
Finallly one more scenario
14+2(human)+1(4th level)+2(belt) = 5 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
14+2(headband) = 5 pointsTotal = 13 points.
When you've got a chance, find out how he's got these stats so high.
All this assumes he's level 7
Or they could be 4d6 rolled set of stats.
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Wow you guys answer fast!
I dont have his files within reach, but from what i remember.
Human
19
12
14
10
7
16These stats don't make sense.
16+2(human)+1(4th level) = 10 points
12 = 2 points
14 = 5 points
10 = 0 points
7 = -4 points
16 = 10 pointsTotal = 23 points. He either has 3 points too many (assuming a 20 point buy) or 2 points too little (assuming a 25 point buy).
Doesn't this = 25
STR:19 18 start +1 lvl 4=17 points
DEX:12=2 points
CON:14=5 points
INT:10=0 points
WIS:7=-4 points
CHA:16 14+2 Human=5 points
25 points.
Neutral foes.
That's it.
Second best options would be combat maneuvers (especially by neutral foes so that he does not apply his CHA to CMD) and miss chances (even a mirror image spell would do wonders and give the spellcasters a chance to be useful)
Then again, it would be interesting to see why the rest of the party is so much weaker than he is: there is a limit on how much you can optimize a level 7 paladin.
What's his fighting style? His AC should be decent but not stellar unless he's using a shield (and if he does use a shield, his damage should be quite low, especially against non evil foes).
I'm also interested on the mocking part: does he make fun of the other players? I used to do it to boasting my sturdiness, but that what pretty much what my dwarf paladin with a shield was able to do when not smiting. It's not usually a problem, the rogue made jokes about my paladin whenever a acrobatics/stealth/swim/climb etc check was made.
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Send the party up against a group of 10 1st level Kobold Anti-Paladins. Make sure the kobold's worship a god that hates his god. :)
He becomes the very very logical center of attention. The other people get to shine because they are coming to their buddies rescue, and they're saving his butt from the Smite Goods of the kobolds.
Later, have them run into 5 3rd level Kobold Anti-Paladins. Same thing.
Finally, in the temple proper, have them run into a Kobold Cleric (8th level), 2 7th level Kobold Anti-Paladins, and a pair of 5th level Kobold Rogues who worship the same god.
This makes the paladin a good story (he's taking out an enemy of his god), but it also puts him in a world of hurt, as his most powerful abilities (Smite Evil) are being turned against him in the form of Smite Good's from multiple sources.
This also has the advantage that more than likely, those smite goods are not going to work on all the rest of the PCs (since some of them are probably neutral). This means the enemy is more dangerous to the paladin than everyone else.
Paladin needs slaying?
Kill it with Fire. *Shows a picture of Asmodeus to everyone*
Paladin needs slaying?
Kill it with Fire. *Shows a picture of Asmodeus to everyone*
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Neutral foes makes a Paladin distinctly average so that is an easy win. Anti Paladin can work well too for some fun.
If monsters are evil, you can make them tough enough to challenge the Paladin without putting the rest of the party at too much risk - remember the Paladin emites an Aura of Good, so Evil creatures do tend to single the Paladin out, so you can easily have a few extra tough mobs against the group as the Pally will be the main focus of the attack
how is his touch AC?
I would try with gunslinger / alchemist to bring him down.
Or just use an evil magic mastermind (he hasn't got the spell progression to be able to find/hunt him) with only good minions.
You have to be realistic that those good minions can't blatenly do evil acts, but they can do a lot of neutral acts and still be considered good.
Also, have a talk with the player, one optimizer in a group of fun players isn't good one way or the other, perhaps he sees this himself and accepts to change character.
With an int that low, he's too stupid for tactical movement on the grid. Remind him of that, and make sure he soaks up as many AoOs as possible.
Also, Lawful Stupid :-\
Touch attacks and grapple/trip/disarm/sunder opponents.
Opponent he is not supposed to kill. "Bring back my son that ran away with some of his friends. Their good kids just a bit misguided. So please don't actually hurt any of them."
Deacon from his church that he is supposed to keep alive on a trip through enemy lands. NPC adept with light armor (he will have hard time keeping up), lower hit points, and lower saves. So he can still feel good acomplishing something, but others get to do the heavy killing while he is busy.
No, but with a WIS that low, he's asking for people to do things to him without his noticing.
Unless he put a bunch of ranks into perception, and sense motive, he's going to be easily fooled by charlatans, con men, pick pockets, etc. He's also the easiest person, likely, to sneak up on when he's on watch. Given he only get's 2 skill points per level...
So have some people feed him BS in town and trick him into doing the wrong things. One thing that works well is have someone trick him into starting a ruckus to cover their crime. Then have the guards question him about why he started a ruckus just in time for someone to steel all the jewels in the jewelry store, or to rob the guard's pay from the coach. Basically put him an RP situation that being able to smash things really well doesn't help.
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... A few skill challenges may be also painful for the Paladin, i.e. you have to cross a narrow bridge in order to attack the archers on the other side. Acrobatics 20 or fall, 10d6 damage, then you can use the stairs that go from the pit to the archer's side.
and the stairs are polished marble
and with running water flowing down them
and moss growing on them
and it's cold so the water is slushy
and at the top of the stairs is a trip master with a whip
bwuhahahahaha!!!
{I so have to use this on our samuri}
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*shrug* You can say that and yet the fact remains that most of the things which could be a challenge to the Pally could kill the rest of the party if they felt like it, except for perhaps the Antipaladin idea but that has the negative effect of making the entire campaign all about the Paladin and that can be pretty damn boring too.
Fixing the rest of your team is an option but could require significant alteration of character stats, skills, feat selection, and weapon choices all of which wreck the feeling of continuity in a story.
Also while the Pally may be the biggest threat that doesn't mean the enemies should auto focus him in a fight. If you see some bad ass guy kick in two of your friend's faces you might very well decide that those spindly guys in the silly dresses twidling their fingers are better targets and it's always true that a heavy fighter is significantly less problematic without his support staff around.
And ? Just because the party has a common weakness doesn't mean one guy has to suffer more for the others. If he really is the most powerful, intelligent enemies will focus on him. Just because there is an antipaladin doesn't mean the campaign and the world is only centered around the paladin. If the wizard is becoming more useful than the pally, then they will focus on him and so the statement about the paladin being too powerful is moot.
Nobody is asking to change the poisoner rogue into a brutal pugilist barbarian, or to change the whole feat tree. The roleplay of these characters hasn't to change. Fixing things from time to time when really needed has been done continuously in our campaign for years without it forbidding us to roleplay correctly.
On the other side, saying "change your character you've been playing for several levels with because you're just too good I can't think of a way to make things fun for anyone" or "make rocks fall" is 12 year old DMing, in comparison to talking with all players as to make things fun for everyone, and not only everyone except the paladin player.
Doesn't this = 25STR:19 18 start +1 lvl 4=17 points
DEX:12=2 points
CON:14=5 points
INT:10=0 points
WIS:7=-4 points
CHA:16 14+2 Human=5 points25 points.
I'm not the brightest person but even I know you don't put a +2 in your second highest stat. That just makes no sense. Keep in mind this Paladin is suppose to be optimized.
Check to make sure you're using the latest errata for Paladins, they got nerfed big time after the first print.
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So the paladin is optimized, and to challenge him you would end up killing other members. It sounds to me that you need to help out the other members more. Optimized characters are better than average characters, but not so much that they should be so much better that with out them the battle would go down hill. This speaks to me that your other characters are either poorly designed or poorly played. You shouldn't fault the one guy who shows a greater than a passing interest in your game, as he actually took the time to learn enough about the game to survive.
You also have different styles of characters to compete against. If you were comparing the Paladin to a Fighter or a Barbarian, and he still was proving himself too powerful, then I'd say you actually have a legitimate concern. Paladins are built to tank. He SHOULD have the high AC and saves because out of all of the characters you have there he is the only one DESIGNED to fight up front in melee and in general designed to be THE target. His purpose isn't to be a drag on the party but to support it by taking the hits for his team. Truthfully, given the choice between the other more martial classes I'd rather have a paladin on the team if I were one of your soft squishy caster types.
The other issue is strategy. Do your players work well together? If they aren't trying to work together then it leave little wonder that the Paladin is outshining them.
Rogues require partners to take advantage of their primary ability. Clerics that aren't providing support to the party in form of healing and defensive spells aren't helping party survival. Wizards and Sorcerors NEED some one to be their protective support or else they can't get off the spells that will help the party the most.
Paladins aren't the greatest of damage dealers, but they can usually OUTLAST their opponents by virtue of their healing capabilities and their better than average AC. This doesn't mean they don't need the support of the other party members, but that when compared to the others they need it somewhat less.
Hi there,
I need advice on how to kill or at least scare/challenge a paladin.
This guys is optimized and compared to the rest of the group (a rogue, a cleric, a wizard and a Cleric/sorcerer) who is less optimized i have a hard time challenging him without killing the rest of the group in the process.
Except for swim checks i have no clue how to kill him. He is the top of AC, HP, general SAVES.
Plz don't give me any "You shouldn't wanna kill your PCs". I just wanna give the rest of the group a chance to shine.
Any Ideas?
Keep in mind that there are more ways to challenge a PC than just pure combat.
Environmental effects are VERY important.
Option 1- I'm guessing if you dropped the Paladin into a lake he'd practically drown with all that armor. Design a fight on a narrow walkway over water and he'll get very nervous very fast.
option2- Limiting his movement. Many environmental factors can slow down what is already a slow moving class. Rough terrain, spells like web and armor lock(this may be a 3.5 spell) enemies like spiders, etc can all slow the paladin down enough that he won't be a factor until later rounds of combat. The baddies should recognize him for what he is, slow him and try to deal with his comrades first.
option 3- ranged touch attacks get through a Pali's defenses quite well.
option 4- challenge the Pali in a social or moral dilema that has big consequences. When done properly these situations can be as stressful as a tough combat and have consequences just as daunting.
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With an int that low, he's too stupid for tactical movement on the grid. Remind him of that, and make sure he soaks up as many AoOs as possible.
Also, Lawful Stupid :-\
I believe tactics is more wisdom based (ala survival) than int.