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Some of the races will be made available through convention boons and the like in the upcoming convention season.I am not sure you have an answer for this yet, but are boons how you are going to handle the Race book when it comes out?
Once I see and look through the book, I can make a decision. Until then, I will wait to say anything about it.
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so, here's a question dealing with the human ethnicities in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer:
the additional resources page states that they start play knowing the languages listed. however, none of them have Common/Taldane as starting languages. does this mean that a character of one of these ethicities with an intelligence of 10 or lower could theoretically create a character who is completely unable to communicate with the rest of the party?
or should Common/Taldane be added to these ethnicities' starting languages, as the central setting for the Pathfinder Society is the Inner Sea region?
also wondering about the familiars, because i suddenly have a longing to play a teenage farm-boy-turned-wizard with a pig familiar.
I think any easterner that was sent to the Pathfinders of Absalom was taught Taldane (Common) as a racial language first.
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i would agree. however, as it currently stands, that is not the case. i definitely think it should be added.
i vaguely recall something similar happening near the end of another very popular organized play campaign, when a few races popped up that had the potential not to speak common. it caused all kinds of stupid.
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i would agree. however, as it currently stands, that is not the case. i definitely think it should be added.
i vaguely recall something similar happening near the end of another very popular organized play campaign, when a few races popped up that had the potential not to speak common. it caused all kinds of stupid.
I disagree that they should all know common automatically. If they want to know it, they should take an Int of at least 12.
That actually makes good roleplay sense. Why would Tian Xia send idiots as their ambassadors?
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I think that for the purposes of PFS, we need to hand-waive the language issue in this circumstance. Just assume that you have either learned Common prior to coming to the Inner Sea region, or you have been here long enough to learn it regardless of your Intelligence. Call it a requirement of joining the Pathfinder Society.
Perhaps we need an FAQ entry to the effect of, "all PFS characters begin with knowledge of the common language."
Honestly, as a frequent GM, there are a lot of issues I need to deal with at the gaming table. I do not need a character with an inability to communicated effectively with their companions slowing down a timed event.
I would like to think that the few players who would create a non-common speaking character would use it as a positive role-playing opportunity. However, having seen uber-opto builds, players wanting to directly interfere with other player's actions, and generally make a "legal" nuisance of themselves, I see this as being an exploitable way to create chaos at the gaming table and reduce the enjoyment of other players.
i would agree. however, as it currently stands, that is not the case. i definitely think it should be added.
i vaguely recall something similar happening near the end of another very popular organized play campaign, when a few races popped up that had the potential not to speak common. it caused all kinds of stupid.
I disagree that they should all know common automatically. If they want to know it, they should take an Int of at least 12.
That actually makes good roleplay sense. Why would Tian Xia send idiots as their ambassadors?
I agree. Though it also makes good roleplay sense that your character would not be sent out on Pathfinder missions until he learned Common once he got over here. I can't see a Venture-Captain putting a Pathfinder in a group where he can't communicate with the other Pathfinders or any of the NPCs they meet and expect him to follow the third rule "Cooperate".
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Honestly, as a frequent GM, there are a lot of issues I need to deal with at the gaming table. I do not need a character with an inability to communicated effectively with their companions slowing down a timed event.
So, how do you deal with an Oracle with the Deaf curse?
Deaf: You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual
penalties for being deafened. You cast all of your spells as
if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat. This does
not increase their level or casting time. At 5th level, you
receive a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks that
do not rely upon hearing, and the initiative penalty for
being deaf is reduced to –2. At 10th level, you gain scent
and you do not suffer any penalty on initiative checks due
to being deaf. At 15th level, you gain tremorsense out to a
range of 30 feet.
Callarek,
From the PFS FAQ:
What does a deaf oracle (or other deaf PC) need to do in order to read lips?
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, any PC may learn to read lips with a rank in Linguistics as if they had learned a new language. When reading the lips of a speaking creature within 10 feet in normal lighting conditions, the reader need not make any skill checks. In situations of dim lighting, extreme distances, or to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the reader must make Perception checks (DC determined by the GM based on the situation). A lip reader may only understand spoken words in a language it knows.
Beyond encouraging the player of a deaf character to do this, how you role play beyond this is up to the player.
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I disagree that they should all know common automatically. If they want to know it, they should take an Int of at least 12.That actually makes good roleplay sense. Why would Tian Xia send idiots as their ambassadors?
The same reason that there a goodly number of INT 7 Pathfinder operatives running around. But to your question, I would pose another question: Why would the Pathfinder Society spend years training a member without making sure that they can speak Common?
IMO, allowing characters who do not have a way to effectively communicate with the rest of the part under the aegis of "good roleplaying" is kind of a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
As for the case of the Oracle, I honestly think that either they should be able to do the "read lips" trick without spending the rank in linguistics, or not be allowed at all.
I would like to think that the few players who would create a non-common speaking character would use it as a positive role-playing opportunity. However, having seen uber-opto builds, players wanting to directly interfere with other player's actions, and generally make a "legal" nuisance of themselves, I see this as being an exploitable way to create chaos at the gaming table and reduce the enjoyment of other players.
And also very much this.
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Now we're talking!Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3
Animal Companions (p. 311): kangarooOh, man....
<not having read the B3 at all>
Gorum promise me those things can't box or be ridden.
Iirc, they only have a 'tailslap' type attack, and dont think Id let a player ride it unless they had really good reasoning for how they could. 'In the pouch, duh!' is not good reasoning.
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I disagree that they should all know common automatically. If they want to know it, they should take an Int of at least 12.That actually makes good roleplay sense. Why would Tian Xia send idiots as their ambassadors?
The same reason that there a goodly number of INT 7 Pathfinder operatives running around. But to your question, I would pose another question: Why would the Pathfinder Society spend years training a member without making sure that they can speak Common?
Also consider the fact that said characters would be immersed in an environment where Common/Taldane is the primary language for years during said training. Even without any formal instruction, anyone and everyone will be capable of functional speaking/reading of any language if fully immersed in an environment where it is used. I think it's fair to say that the very fact they are a Pathfinder in the Inner Sea means they've been there long enough to pick up Taldane with or without formal instruction.
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Kangaroo pouches are not nearly as big as one might imagine. a gnome using reduce person couldn't get small enough.Iirc, they only have a 'tailslap' type attack, and dont think Id let a player ride it unless they had really good reasoning for how they could. 'In the pouch, duh!' is not good reasoning.Now we're talking!Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3
Animal Companions (p. 311): kangarooOh, man....
<not having read the B3 at all>
Gorum promise me those things can't box or be ridden.
Exactly! As soon as I saw that kangaroo was now a legal AC, I got a horrified vision in my head of a player trying to be Pter Griffin from Family Guy, trying to ride around in the pouch. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
They don't need to say that everyone gets Common as a beginning language in the additional resources document because it already says this in the Core Rulebook for every Core race. It also says you get bonus languages for high intelligence (and which ones). You don't lose languages for a low intelligence. The additional resources document, as I understand it, is for things not covered in the core rulebook...while all characters starting with Common as a language is.
This particular conversation was started over whether the Dragon Empires races should start with Common in PFS play, not the core races. The Inner Sea World Guide already takes care of this for the human Tian ethnicities, stating that they start with Common and Tien. But I have the feeling that when the Dragon Empires Gazetteer and Primer are added to the Additional Resources, that some note about the new non-human races knowing Common will be included.
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i would agree. however, as it currently stands, that is not the case. i definitely think it should be added.
i vaguely recall something similar happening near the end of another very popular organized play campaign, when a few races popped up that had the potential not to speak common. it caused all kinds of stupid.
I disagree that they should all know common automatically. If they want to know it, they should take an Int of at least 12.
That actually makes good roleplay sense. Why would Tian Xia send idiots as their ambassadors?
Or even cheaper, they can throw a skill rank into Linguistics. I don't know if Common should be a free bonus language or not, but I think fluency in it should be a requirement of all Pathfinder Society characters, however they achieve that fluency.
I do not have a copy yet, but what we need is for someone who has the first Dragon Empires book to come in here and tell us what is says about starting languages for the new non-human races. For all we know, it already says in there that they start with Common.
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After doing a bit of research, I have to agree with Andrew. The starting languages for the Tian ethnicity are clearly listed in the Gazetteer and they do not include Taldane. Sounds like if you want to play one of those races, you need to drop one of your initial skill points in Linguistics and choose Common/Taldane to represent your time in the Inner Sea.
But the human Tian listed in the ISWG does start with Common, as those Tien represent ones that have been in the Inner Sea region long enough to have learned it, or perhaps were intentionally trained in it before being sent to join the Pathfinders. So when the Dragon Empires books become Society legal, are the Tien suddenly going to lose their free skill in Common?
Remember that the starting languages in the Dragon Empires books assume a campaign starting in that region, thus books specific to that region would not need the Inner Sea Common language. But at least some of the non-human races introduced may exist outside of Tian Xia as well and therefore have a reason to start with Inner Sea Common.
The human ethnicities don't start with Common. It's clear that any character who spends several years in Absalom training at the Grand Lodge will learn enough Common to get by, though...
What he said.
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But the human Tian listed in the ISWG does start with Common...
The new material would superseded the older material. So, currently, it appears that the rules support no common as a base language for Tian characters. Personally, I think we should just add a note to the Additional Resouces or an FAQ entry that clarifies Tian characters getting common/Taldane for the sake of game-play.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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But the human Tian listed in the ISWG does start with Common...The new material would superseded the older material. So, currently, it appears that the rules support no common as a base language for Tian characters. Personally, I think we should just add a note to the Additional Resouces or an FAQ entry that clarifies Tian characters getting common/Taldane for the sake of game-play.
If perchance I just made a Tien character recently, would he lose Common?
But the human Tian listed in the ISWG does start with Common...The new material would superseded the older material. So, currently, it appears that the rules support no common as a base language for Tian characters. Personally, I think we should just add a note to the Additional Resouces or an FAQ entry that clarifies Tian characters getting common/Taldane for the sake of game-play.
But wouldn't specific override general? The new material deals with generic Tian characters where as the ISWG specifically deals with Tians living in the Inner Sea where the Society headquarters are.
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Not to throw fuel on the fire, but Dragon Empires isn't in the Core Assumption, so I don't think you can just say that it "overrules" the older ISWG anyway.
If someone has the ISWG and makes a Tian character, that character starts with Common. You can't say, "Yes, well, this book that's more recent but that you don't own overrules your book, so nyah."
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Actually Dragon Empires Gazetteer is in the Additional Resources and legal for play. It does indicate that all human ethnicities
"begin play knowing all listed languages for their chosen ethnicity as racial languages"
What is doesn't specify is if those are the only languages or if you also start with an assumption of Common/Taldane. That needs to be clarified.
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Not to throw fuel on the fire, but Dragon Empires isn't in the Core Assumption, so I don't think you can just say that it "overrules" the older ISWG anyway.
If someone has the ISWG and makes a Tian character, that character starts with Common. You can't say, "Yes, well, this book that's more recent but that you don't own overrules your book, so nyah."
Actually, that's exactly how it could work. Newer books with updated rules items overrule older versions of that rules item. To use a different example, if I owned the Osirion book since it came out and made a character using the Serpent Lash feat, I was expected to update that feat to the newest iteration when the Rival Guide came out. Even if I didn't own said book, If I didn't own Rival Guide, I'd either have to pick it up or not use the feat.
In this case, though, it's a little muddied, because the Tian ethnicity in the ISWG is a "generic" Tian ethnicity, whereas the ones listed in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer are more specific ethnicities. It's currently unclear how all of this interacts, and it's an issue that should be addressed.
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If a book that I don't own overrules a book that I do and I show up at a PFS event and am told that I *must* use the newer book that I don't own - and assumedly, purchase it - then I'd leave. Also, I'd come here and complain vociferously about it. I've been unable to find anything in the PFSGOP, the FAQs, or the Core Rulebook that says that fundamentally "New versions of resources overrule older versions of resources." If you've got a reference, please point me at it and I'll bow out of arguing about it.
Regardless, my point was more along the lines that if you aren't forcing people to buy ALL the books, then you have to allow them to use the information in the books that they 1) own and 2) bring with them. Otherwise, you make it obligatory for people to buy all the most recent versions of the books - which may be the point, but it's a pretty crappy point.
Bob, I understand what you're saying, and that does need to be clarified.
Mat, what happens when a GM doesn't own the newer book, and isn't aware of its existence? I don't think it's realistic to assume that every PFS GM follows all of the new releases and makes sure that none of the feats they know of have been updated. And if you're going to be able to use a feat "sometimes," depending on the GM, well, that just opens up a huge can of worms, doesn't it?
Hell, for that matter, what happens if a PLAYER is unaware of the existence of a newer version of a feat? Are you going to tell them "No, that feat you've been using for the last 21 scenarios doesn't work like that anymore. You don't have the book that revised it with you, and I don't have it handy, so I guess you can't use it for this session." In my opinion, that's a pretty hostile way to start a PFS session.
Notwithstanding that the Additional Resources page still allows for "All human ethnicities except Azlanti" from the ISWG. So why can't I use Tien from there? Especially since - if you want to nitpick - none of the ethnicities in the Dragon Empires Primer are called "Tien."
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If a book that I don't own overrules a book that I do and I show up at a PFS event and am told that I *must* use the newer book that I don't own - and assumedly, purchase it - then I'd leave. Also, I'd come here and complain vociferously about it.
And I think that is why the ruling should be that the default is all PFS characters speak common/Taldane automatically, plus access to additional regional/racial dialects. Anything short of that is likely to cause issues and be hard to enforce.
I've been unable to find anything in the PFSGOP, the FAQs, or the Core Rulebook that says that fundamentally "New versions of resources overrule older versions of resources." If you've got a reference, please point me at it and I'll bow out of arguing about it.
It is widely accepted that new material supersedes older material. I do not believe that it is officially printed in the books, but it exists somewhere in the forums, by Paizo designers.
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I've been unable to find anything in the PFSGOP, the FAQs, or the Core Rulebook that says that fundamentally "New versions of resources overrule older versions of resources." If you've got a reference, please point me at it and I'll bow out of arguing about it.It is widely accepted that new material supersedes older material. I do not believe that it is officially printed in the books, but it exists somewhere in the forums, by Paizo designers.
Meh. Wide acceptance is fair enough, I suppose, but it's not official enough to make me tell someone sitting at one of my tables that they can't use the older version of a feat/power/whatever if that's the book they've got.
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I've been unable to find anything in the PFSGOP, the FAQs, or the Core Rulebook that says that fundamentally "New versions of resources overrule older versions of resources." If you've got a reference, please point me at it and I'll bow out of arguing about it.It is widely accepted that new material supersedes older material. I do not believe that it is officially printed in the books, but it exists somewhere in the forums, by Paizo designers.
I know I'm still relatively new around here, and haven't seen many of the books outside the core rules, but I have yet to see or hear of an example of two Paizo books contradicting each other, until this example of Tians speaking Common (or not) was brought up. Near as I can figure, there just hasn't been a need for a rule that states the newer book overrides the older one, because any time a newer book changes something, it always specifically says in the new book that the new rule is optional.
Can anyone think of any examples of Paizo books that have contradicted each other, where there's been a need for a clarification about the new one superceding the old?
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Meh. Wide acceptance is fair enough, I suppose, but it's not official enough to make me tell someone sitting at one of my tables that they can't use the older version of a feat/power/whatever if that's the book they've got.I've been unable to find anything in the PFSGOP, the FAQs, or the Core Rulebook that says that fundamentally "New versions of resources overrule older versions of resources." If you've got a reference, please point me at it and I'll bow out of arguing about it.It is widely accepted that new material supersedes older material. I do not believe that it is officially printed in the books, but it exists somewhere in the forums, by Paizo designers.
The official answer you're looking for can be found in the Additional Resources. Using Mat's Serpent Lash example:
Pathfinder Player Companion: Osirion, Land of Pharaohs
Equipment: all items on page 25; Feats: all feats on pages 28–29 (reduce all skill rank requirements by –3 and remember that the Hide skill is now Stealth and that the Search skill is now Perception) except Serpent Lash, which has been replaced by the version in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rival Guide. You must convert to the current version of Serpent Lash or replace this feat. The versions of Thanatopic Spell and Threnodic Spell in this source are no longer legal. You must convert to the current versions in Ultimate Magic or replace these feats; Prestige Class: Living Monolith (reduce all skill rank requirements to 1); Spells: all spells on pages 26–27
There are other feats (such as those updated in the ISWG from the Campaign Setting book) that similar changes have been made to them and you need to have the updated version. That's one reason why its a good idea to keep an eye on the Additional Resources if you use anything outside the Core Book to make sure you're legal.