Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, at least 5 killed


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Silver Crusade

What kind of a monster does this. 9yrs old one of the victims was a nine year old girl. What a monster!

Link

The Truth.

Silver Crusade

Updated. Look @ second link.


LostSoul wrote:
What kind of a monster does this. 9yrs old one of the victims was a nine year old girl. What a monster!

Look it's Arizona. What do you expect? Who in their right mind, and had a choice would stay there?

The Exchange

sunbeam wrote:
Look it's Arizona. What do you expect? Who in their right mind, and had a choice would stay there?

Wow. Really? So folks who live in AZ are, what? Crazy? And what incredibly insightful measuring stick did you use to come to this, obviously infallible conclusion, oh wise and meaningful one? Or are you saying that all Arizonans are capable of such horribly evil acts based solely on their location? That could be a borderline racist comment, what with all the native americans and hispanics that live in the state. I guess whatever place you live in must be filled with enlightened folk, who never ever would commit acts of violence against another person, probably animal either. What a shame we can't all live in utopia with you.


Can a Mod please strike this thread dead before it gets even worse.

The Exchange

Hmph. Should have read the post I wanted to make...


Wolfthulhu wrote:
sunbeam wrote:
Look it's Arizona. What do you expect? Who in their right mind, and had a choice would stay there?

Wow. Really? So folks who live in AZ are, what? Crazy? And what incredibly insightful measuring stick did you use to come to this, obviously infallible conclusion, oh wise and meaningful one? Or are you saying that all Arizonans are capable of such horribly evil acts based solely on their location? That could be a borderline racist comment, what with all the native americans and hispanics that live in the state. I guess whatever place you live in must be filled with enlightened folk, who never ever would commit acts of violence against another person, probably animal either. What a shame we can't all live in utopia with you.

Arizona is chock full of tea baggers and racists. I don't know much about Giffords, I think she is a blue dog (Republican Lite), but I don't know much about her record.

Have you been paying attention to the rhetoric and politic maneuvering coming out of that place the past few years? From Birthright citizenship, to half-ass brownshirts harassing Mexicans, to this guy.

Geez dude, wake up and pay attention to current events. Did you see this story?

http://www.huliq.com/10061/two-dead-and-az-governor-wont-restore-transplant -funding

My best guess is a significant number of Arizonans are happy with these events. A few will be appalled, but not as many.

And it's hard to judge these things, but I live in a place where the crazy is stronger than Arizona, if you can believe it.

A Jew, or really anyone, would have been mad not to drop everything and run in 1938 or so if they lived in Germany. It won't be as bad, since this crew isn't exactly competent, but they are still murderous and dangerous if you live among them.

Bail and let them fry their brains in the sun. I know full well economics can trap you in a place, but if you can leave you should.

Liberty's Edge

I think it's safe to say that Arizona is ground zero for racism and wackadoo at this point.

Congresswoman Giffords is now reportedly awake, recognizing people, and speaking. So there's that.

Sovereign Court

Kortz wrote:

I think it's safe to say that Arizona is ground zero for racism and wackadoo at this point.

Congresswoman Giffords is now reportedly awake, recognizing people, and speaking. So there's that.

Ah, yes. Trying to enforce the law is wacky racism at its craziest. And if you disagree with the politics of some people who live in a state, I think calling everyone in that state crazy is the only responsible thing to do...

Or not.

You can disagree with the dominant political opinions of a state without saying that every resident in a state is a murderous maniac.

There's expressing your opinion on a subject, and then there's being an intolerant jerk. I would like to encourage people to the former without the latter.

Liberty's Edge

Jess Door wrote:
Kortz wrote:

I think it's safe to say that Arizona is ground zero for racism and wackadoo at this point.

Congresswoman Giffords is now reportedly awake, recognizing people, and speaking. So there's that.

Ah, yes. Trying to enforce the law is wacky racism at its craziest. And if you disagree with the politics of some people who live in a state, I think calling everyone in that state crazy is the only responsible thing to do...

Or not.

You can disagree with the dominant political opinions of a state without saying that every resident in a state is a murderous maniac.

There's expressing your opinion on a subject, and then there's being an intolerant jerk. I would like to encourage people to the former without the latter.

I'm not intolerant. I have a friend who is an Arizonan.

Dark Archive

Ok guys, first I have actually visited Arizona, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Second, bad people and wackos come in all stripes not just your opponents stripes. And finally come on people, lets stop blaming and realize a 9 year old girl was shot. Wake up this isn't about your politics it's about a horrible tragedy.

Liberty's Edge

Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:
Ok guys, first I have actually visited Arizona, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Second, bad people and wackos come in all stripes not just your opponents stripes. And finally come on people, lets stop blaming and realize a 9 year old girl was shot. Wake up this isn't about your politics it's about a horrible tragedy.

This didn't happen in a vacuum. One side in this country preaches non-stop fear, anger, and violence, and it's not the left.


Actions like this are just symptoms of the deeper social problems. I work in the education system in a low income area. I see first hand what happens to kids when they are dealing with poverty and growing up in families plagued with problems. How much funding is there for helping these people- little to none. How much funding does the government put towards things like children's mental health- little to none. Until some of these underlying problems are properly addressed incidents like this will likely only become more frequent. Unfortunately, there seems to be little interest from the public or most governments in dealing with such problems. Most people just don't care, but then are shocked when events like today's happen. There is a reason why there seem to be so many wackos around.


Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:
Ok guys, first I have actually visited Arizona, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Second, bad people and wackos come in all stripes not just your opponents stripes. And finally come on people, lets stop blaming and realize a 9 year old girl was shot. Wake up this isn't about your politics it's about a horrible tragedy.

Thankyou!


Kortz wrote:
Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:
Ok guys, first I have actually visited Arizona, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Second, bad people and wackos come in all stripes not just your opponents stripes. And finally come on people, lets stop blaming and realize a 9 year old girl was shot. Wake up this isn't about your politics it's about a horrible tragedy.
This didn't happen in a vacuum. One side in this country preaches non-stop fear, anger, and violence, and it's not the left.

Way to politicize a tragic event for your own self-aggrandizing interests...no, the left isn't to blame at all, is it? [/sarcasm]


Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.


Wow. The forums on Paizo used to actually be a good, fairly open minded place to discuss stuff like this. I guess not anymore. Im deeply saddened that people seriously think that stuff like this should be expected just because someone lives in a state that has a different viewpoint than one's own.

Seriously, if Arizona state law bothers you that much, might I suggest that you move there and try to enact change there? Then maybe after youve walked a mile in their shoes, maybe you might see why they think like they do. Or not. But its one thing to sit in front of your computer and laugh and call others crazy wackadoo 9 year old murderers, and its another to try to have empathy for others.

My heart goes out to everyone affected by this tragedy, "wackadoo" or not.

Edit-Not gonna name any names, but some of you that posted on here make me ashamed of the Human Race.

The Exchange

Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Molon labe.

Shadow Lodge

Constitution of the United States of America, Amendment II wrote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

That's the law of the land, folks. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be followed reasonably (Farmer Bob doesn't need a LAW or RPG, even if he thinks he does) but it is the law.

The Exchange

Kortz wrote:
Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:
Ok guys, first I have actually visited Arizona, it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Second, bad people and wackos come in all stripes not just your opponents stripes. And finally come on people, lets stop blaming and realize a 9 year old girl was shot. Wake up this isn't about your politics it's about a horrible tragedy.
This didn't happen in a vacuum. One side in this country preaches non-stop fear, anger, and violence, and it's not the left.

Take. Off. Your. Blinders.


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Molon labe.

Good attitude.

Doesn't matter how many mass killings there are, and how many kids get shot, as long as you can have your 'toys'.


Kthulhu wrote:
That's the law of the land, folks. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be followed reasonably (Farmer Bob doesn't need a LAW or RPG, even if he thinks he does) but it is the law.

Yeah but then people seem to miss the first part about being a well regulated Militia. As opposed to 'any old yokel can pack a gat'.

With the right comes a responsibility.

The Exchange

Shifty wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Molon labe.

Good attitude.

Doesn't matter how many mass killings there are, and how many kids get shot, as long as you can have your 'toys'.

I'm a mature, responsible adult who has never harmed nor threatened anyone with a gun. Why should I give up my right to own them.

The Exchange

Shifty wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
That's the law of the land, folks. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be followed reasonably (Farmer Bob doesn't need a LAW or RPG, even if he thinks he does) but it is the law.

Yeah but then people seem to miss the first part about being a well regulated Militia. As opposed to 'any old yokel can pack a gat'.

With the right comes a responsibility.

Are you referring to any citizen of 21 yrs or older who passes a SLED and Federal criminal background check as 'any old yokel'? If so, then yes.

What you fail to realize, or maybe just fail to acknowledge, is that most violent crimes committed with firearms are done so with illegally obtained guns. But I guess that wouldn't be worth noting.

This isn't some example of why guns need to taken away from the citizenry of this country, it's an example of what happens when people can't see past their own arrogance and sense of self correctness, to hold every life valuable.

It's not the "Right-Wing Hate Machine" or "dumb conservative gun-nuts", it's a f!+@ing scumbag who acted in cold blood to attack innocent people. Politics is just the scapegoat.

The Exchange

Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

Just to show my paradigm, I am pretty liberal and do read the 2nd amendment as the states having the right to form militias, and I really don't see the need for a typical person to have a automatic weapon. However, you are correct this isn't about whether guns are too available, or not. It is about some wacko that decided shooting a representative was a good idea. I am more annoyed with recent calls by political figures to eliminate opponents or bring down the government. There are too many people in this world that will do it if influential people say too.


Personally, I feel much safer living in a country where we don't feel it's our RIGHT to carry guns. I'd rather walk around knowing that no one has a gun, than feeling like everyone does.

Unfortunately, Canada is not devoid of firearms, and there have been many instances of shooting deaths here in Toronto. Many of guns used in those crimes are making their way across the US border into what should be a much more gun free country than it is. So I wish that America would stop making so many weapons because its messing with our way of life up here.

A gun is not a tool. It is a weapon. It is designed for killing. You may be able to argue that a rifle is a tool designed for hunting animals, but handguns are designed solely with the intent of killing people. The more "tools" there are around that are designed to kill people, the more people will be killed by them. Taking away guns doesn't solve the issues that make people like Jared Loughner, but it would make it more difficult for people like him to do what he did yesterday.

Gun Control won't solve these problems, but it would still be a step in the right direction. To see that these tragedies don't continue requires an entire paradigm shift. It requires people to get rid of the everyman for himself attitude, and start thinking more about community building. It requires having a population that is willing to sacrifice more of what they have to help reach out to their fellow citizens. We don't do a good enough job of that here in Canada, and IMO the US attitude is even worse. The entire nation is built on the idea that everyone has the right to do what ever they want (within the loose laws that exist), which doesn't lead to strong community. This attitude has always struck me as ironic given the amount of people in the states that claim to be Christian.


There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

If you are a hunter, and really feel the need to go kill animals than get a bow- it would be more challenging and sporting anyhow. Of course that said, there was a man killed in a library here in Toronto a little while back with a crossbow so...

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

I have a sword that hangs in my basement, I have never used that to kill anything. It was designed to kill other people. Do I have to get rid of that too?

The Exchange

P.H. Dungeon wrote:

There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

If you are a hunter, and really feel the need to go kill animals than get a bow- it would be more challenging and sporting anyhow. Of course that said, there was a man killed in a library here in Toronto a little while back with a crossbow so...

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

Not hardly, I do enjoy target shooting, and most of my firearms are handed down by my father. To me MY guns are some of the only fond memories I have of growing up in that hell hole. What you have to understand is guns are ingrained into American culture, I don't mean the shoot 'em gangsta crap, I refer to target practice with your kids, hunting trips with your buddies, or just the collector who enjoys the craftsmanship of a particular piece.

But truly, should this be about someones right to own a gun, or should it instead be about what the world is coming to where folks think that s%&* like this is "right"?

I'd wager that your sympathy for these poor folks outweighs your dislike of my old lever action 20g that you'll never see anyway. Meaning I don't want to see me, and the others like me, get vilified because this waste of afterbirth dickwad goes and does what should be the unthinkable.

The Exchange

Justin Franklin wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

I have a sword that hangs in my basement, I have never used that to kill anything. It was designed to kill other people. Do I have to get rid of that too?

According to some, yes. But you enjoy your sword Justin, I won't lose any sleep over it being safe in your basement. ;)


Well you won't likely do as much damage with a sword as a glock with an extended clip.

Do you have a lot of orcs or goblins in your area? If you do, keep it.Do you have kids? If you do, I'd definitely get rid of it.

Even if you don't have kids, as show of good faith, I'd say get rid of the sword and find something less symbolic of humans killing each other to decorate your wall- perhaps a nice painting or relief sculpture, maybe even a tapestry of some kind. Of course, this is rather hypocritical of me to say since I enjoy a rpg that involves lot of violence and killing, but that is how I let my natural male violent inclinations to manifest in a way that I know won't hurt anyone.

If I had weapons in my house, I wouldn't be able to guarantee that someone couldn't accidently be hurt by them. That being said, I can't guarantee someone won't be accidently hurt by a kitchen knife either, but at least if someone were accidently hurt by a kitchen knife, I could say it wasn't that I was being irresponsible by having dangerous weapons in my home.

Justin Franklin wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

I have a sword that hangs in my basement, I have never used that to kill anything. It was designed to kill other people. Do I have to get rid of that too?

The Exchange

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Actions like this are just symptoms of the deeper social problems. I work in the education system in a low income area. I see first hand what happens to kids when they are dealing with poverty and growing up in families plagued with problems. How much funding is there for helping these people- little to none. How much funding does the government put towards things like children's mental health- little to none. Until some of these underlying problems are properly addressed incidents like this will likely only become more frequent. Unfortunately, there seems to be little interest from the public or most governments in dealing with such problems. Most people just don't care, but then are shocked when events like today's happen. There is a reason why there seem to be so many wackos around.

This.

It's not a left vs right, it's not a gun rights issue, it's a mentality that seems to pervade every fiber of our world today. It's selfishness, it's a lack of empathy for our fellow man that is the cause. We'll never get to the root of the problem by trying to blame others. We, as a human race, have to start respecting eachother, even those who disagree with our highly valued opinions, we have to start really caring about everyone around us before we can hope to see a stop to things like this.


Yeah but why f%!+ing guns? If you want to go have target practice with your dad, why not take up throwing knives or darts? Why not shoot a big bow and arrow that you can't conceal under a sweater? Why not use a pellet gun?

I know the reason. The reason is that deep down inside you feel like a tough guy when you have a gun, and you like that feeling of empowerment. I get it, but it's time people realized that you can still be a man without needing a gun. You have dick afterall.

There are any number of ways to have bonding experiences with your children or go out and have target practice without needing guns. Unfortunately, people that believe in their guns are so obsessed with that idea that no matter what sort of logic or reason you give them, it is useless. You might as well be having a debate with a tree stump. I still feel the need to try though, even though I know my words fall on deaf ears.

Moorluck wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

There is big difference of what someone can do with Glock with an extended clip and a steak knife, and I guess if the only thing you've done with your gun is shoot a snake than it is just wasting space in your house, so you might as well get rid of it. I own a steak knife and use it for cutting steak. I don't own a gun because I don't need to shoot people, so what would be the point of having something that I would never use?

If you are a hunter, and really feel the need to go kill animals than get a bow- it would be more challenging and sporting anyhow. Of course that said, there was a man killed in a library here in Toronto a little while back with a crossbow so...

Moorluck wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Time to start handing in the guns guys.

You don't need em, and kids don't need to keep being shot by them.

Considering my guns have never been used to shoot anybody.... unless you count that copperhead a couple years back..... why should I turn mine in?

Hey, a lady stabbed her husband and kids with a steak knife last month, I guess we need everybody to turn those in too.

Not hardly, I do enjoy target shooting, and most of my firearms are handed down by my father. To me MY guns are some of the only fond memories I have of growing up in that hell hole. What you have to understand is guns are ingrained into American culture, I don't mean the shoot 'em gangsta crap, I refer to target practice with your kids, hunting trips with your buddies, or just the collector who enjoys the craftsmanship of a particular piece.

But truly, should this be about someones right to own a gun, or should it instead be about what the world is coming to where folks think that s!*! like this is "right"?

I'd wager that your sympathy for these poor folks outweighs your dislike of my old lever action 20g that you'll never see anyway. Meaning I don't want to see me, and the others like me, get vilified because this waste of afterbirth dickwad goes and does what...


What I don't understand is why in country where so many people claim to be religious is "everyone for themself attitude so prevelant?"

Actually, I do understand somewhat. It is that the media is more powerful than religion. The media has convinced people that in order for us to maintain our way of life we must engage in constant consumption, even if it means stepping on the toes of others or wracking up a credit card debt that we can't possibly pay off.

Moorluck wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Actions like this are just symptoms of the deeper social problems. I work in the education system in a low income area. I see first hand what happens to kids when they are dealing with poverty and growing up in families plagued with problems. How much funding is there for helping these people- little to none. How much funding does the government put towards things like children's mental health- little to none. Until some of these underlying problems are properly addressed incidents like this will likely only become more frequent. Unfortunately, there seems to be little interest from the public or most governments in dealing with such problems. Most people just don't care, but then are shocked when events like today's happen. There is a reason why there seem to be so many wackos around.

This.

It's not a left vs right, it's not a gun rights issue, it's a mentality that seems to pervade every fiber of our world today. It's selfishness, it's a lack of empathy for our fellow man that is the cause. We'll never get to the root of the problem by trying to blame others. We, as a human race, have to start respecting eachother, even those who disagree with our highly valued opinions, we have to start really caring about everyone around us before we can hope to see a stop to things like this.

The Exchange

P H, I respect your stance on weapons in the house. However I would like to point out that I have both guns and a few swords, a battle axe, and even a hydra-flail in my home. I also have 3 kids.

My kids have been raised in the same fashion I was in regard to weapons, even my two year old can, and will, tell you that daddy's sword on the wall is "no no toy". My oldest is 8 and he has never once even tried to touch my shotgun, at this point I will tell you that all of firearms are kept locked tight. The guns hold no special mystery for them, they know what they are, and have seen them, even seen daddy fire them. When I was a kid my dad would take a rifle out of the safe, check it to make sure it wasn't loaded and hand it to me to hold. Can you guess what the very first thing I was expected to do was? Check it to make sure it wasn't loaded. Didn't matter that I had just seen him do the same, it was now my responsibility.

There is a way to make sure children in a home are safe from weapons, don't hide them from what a weapon is.


Moorluck wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Actions like this are just symptoms of the deeper social problems. I work in the education system in a low income area. I see first hand what happens to kids when they are dealing with poverty and growing up in families plagued with problems. How much funding is there for helping these people- little to none. How much funding does the government put towards things like children's mental health- little to none. Until some of these underlying problems are properly addressed incidents like this will likely only become more frequent. Unfortunately, there seems to be little interest from the public or most governments in dealing with such problems. Most people just don't care, but then are shocked when events like today's happen. There is a reason why there seem to be so many wackos around.

This.

It's not a left vs right, it's not a gun rights issue, it's a mentality that seems to pervade every fiber of our world today. It's selfishness, it's a lack of empathy for our fellow man that is the cause. We'll never get to the root of the problem by trying to blame others. We, as a human race, have to start respecting eachother, even those who disagree with our highly valued opinions, we have to start really caring about everyone around us before we can hope to see a stop to things like this.

Honestly, I'd never own a gun. I like them, if I lived a different kind of life I might own a few, but for my life right now there's no need.

But everything that you said in this statement is EXACTLY the problem in this country. I've said it before and I'll say it again there's no one who hates Americans more than OTHER AMERICANS. I'm not saying we should all sit around holding hands in a prayer circle, but we BARELY tolerate each other's presence on a basic level. We're supposed to be a plural country but just because we all live in the same country doesnt mean that we wont kill each other and each others children at the drop of a fricking hat.

I've had very few reasons to be a proud American, but when I do it's GREAT. Yesterday was not one of those days. My heart goes out to the families effected by yesterday's attack. I wish a swift recovery to those who were hurt.

The Exchange

P.H. Dungeon wrote:

What I don't understand is why in country where so many people claim to be religious is "everyone for themself attitude so prevelant?"

Actually, I do understand somewhat. It is that the media is more powerful than religion. The media has convinced people that in order for us to maintain our way of life we must engage in constant consumption, even if it means stepping on the toes of others or wracking up a credit card debt that we can't possibly pay off.

Now this is something we can discuss. I have often wondered the same thing, I wouldn't say it's limited to just the US, but it may be more apparent.

You're right though, too damn many people can't see the world as anything other than what it holds for them. It doesn't matter what they have they want more, if you don't give it to them then they hate you. They want to blame you for them not having whatever, just because you do have. I can't wrap my mind around that. :/

The Exchange

Let's hope this discourse continues like it is, but for now I'm out. I really have this need to go hug my kids and tell them how much I love them right now.


Just because you are responsible with your guns doesn't mean that other people will be. There are numerous instances where some guy who keeps guns in the house with no real intent to use them on someone has come home drunk and done something stupid with a firearm.

It is my belief that sometimes you need to give up certain liberties for the betterment of society as a whole. I believe this is one of those cases.

Now, I realize that americans in particular value their "freedoms", and so do I, but I also value the greater public good and well being, and I realize that sometimes we all need help being responsible, and that there are times when we should sacrifice freedoms for the greater good.

For example, I would support laws that would ban the use of gas powered cars. I realize that by doing so I would be giving up a certain amount of freedom of choice, but this sacrifice would in the long run make our world a better place and offer a brighter future to our children, so in my view it would be worth it. However, we live in strange times, where people are willing to sacrifice all sorts of liberties in the name of Homeland security, but still want to be free to have their guns, smoke, drink, eat terrible food and drive cars that poison the air, which are all far more likely to kill them than a terrorist.

Moorluck wrote:

P H, I respect your stance on weapons in the house. However I would like to point out that I have both guns and a few swords, a battle axe, and even a hydra-flail in my home. I also have 3 kids.

My kids have been raised in the same fashion I was in regard to weapons, even my two year old can, and will, tell you that daddy's sword on the wall is "no no toy". My oldest is 8 and he has never once even tried to touch my shotgun, at this point I will tell you that all of firearms are kept locked tight. The guns hold no special mystery for them, they know what they are, and have seen them, even seen daddy fire them. When I was a kid my dad would take a rifle out of the safe, check it to make sure it wasn't loaded and hand it to me to hold. Can you guess what the very first thing I was expected to do was? Check it to make sure it wasn't loaded. Didn't matter that I had just seen him do the same, it was now my responsibility.

There is a way to make sure children in a home are safe from weapons, don't hide them from what a weapon is.

The Exchange

P.H. Dungeon wrote:
I get it.

No. You really don't.


Good. Your kids deserve it. There are way too many kids out there not getting the love they deserve/need. That love goes a long way to preventing the kinds of atrocities we saw yesterday.

Moorluck wrote:
Let's hope this discourse continues like it is, but for now I'm out. I really have this need to go hug my kids and tell them how much I love them right now.


It does seem really irrational, so it is certainly hard for me to get. Maybe you are right, maybe I don't. Try explaining it one more time.

Wolfthulhu wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
I get it.
No. You really don't.


For the greater good. For the same reason we should give up on most of the crap we have, but don't want to give up. For the same reason you should not smoke. For the same reasons we shouldn't drive cars. For the same reasons we should all be vegetarians. For the same reason we should give all our extra income to charity.

The problem is that most of us (myself included), don't want to make all those sacrifices to our lifestyles because we are inherently greedy. That greediness, is part of our natural survival instincts- we need to acquire and consume resources to live, so it is natural for us to want things, but until we learn to temper it, things will get worse for us.

[

QUOTE="Wolfthulhu"]

Shifty wrote:
Wolfthulhu wrote:
Molon labe.

Good attitude.

Doesn't matter how many mass killings there are, and how many kids get shot, as long as you can have your 'toys'.

I'm a mature, responsible adult who has never harmed nor threatened anyone with a gun. Why should I give up my right to own them.


There was a write-up about the gun-man on the BBC. from the sound of it, he may have had mental health problems or a personality disorder


Yes I definitely need help understanding.

For instance, take Sarah Palin. She's pretty pro gun, but she is also supposably a Christian.

I'm not a Christian, and find it very confusing due to people like her, but I want someone to explain to me how someone can claim to be a true Christian, but still support firearms.

It is my understanding that Christianity is supposed to be about peace and love, and helping your fellow man. From what I've heard about Jesus, he isn't the sort of guy who would carry a gun or have them around. Isn't Jesus supposed to be the role model for Christians?

I contend that you can't truly embrace the tenants of Christianity and still own firearms. It is one of the deadly sins to kill another man; therefore owning a gun is just putting you that much closer to committing such a sin. Therefore you should not own a gun.

P.H. Dungeon wrote:

It does seem really irrational, so it is certainly hard for me to get. Maybe you are right, maybe I don't. Try explaining it one more time.

Wolfthulhu wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
I get it.
No. You really don't.


A friend and I went to go see True Grit the other day. At the end of it, my friend commented, "Boy, people had a lot of manners back then."

An armed society does tend to be a polite one.


America today is considered an armed society. The most armed society in the world in fact, but I don't feel that Americans today have a reputation for being overly polite.

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

A friend and I went to go see True Grit the other day. At the end of it, my friend commented, "Boy, people had a lot of manners back then."

An armed society does tend to be a polite one.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:

America today is considered an armed society. The most armed society in the world in fact, but I don't feel that Americans today have a reputation for being overly polite.

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

A friend and I went to go see True Grit the other day. At the end of it, my friend commented, "Boy, people had a lot of manners back then."

An armed society does tend to be a polite one.

You really should try to read what other people are saying instead of just mouthing the words.

Until then, you are just running your mouth and attempts to commuunicate with you are just a waste of time.


My last post was intended as a light hearted quip, my apologies if I offended you, but I have made what I feel are several reasonable contributions to this discussion. What have you offered? Nothing that I have seen.

The Thing from Beyond the Edge wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

America today is considered an armed society. The most armed society in the world in fact, but I don't feel that Americans today have a reputation for being overly polite.

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

A friend and I went to go see True Grit the other day. At the end of it, my friend commented, "Boy, people had a lot of manners back then."

An armed society does tend to be a polite one.

You really should try to read what other people are saying instead of just mouthing the words.

Until then, you are just running your mouth and attempts to commuunicate with you are just a waste of time.

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