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I've got a fire cleric casting it (at 8d6) and a pair of wizards (7d6) who throw it at least once per combat. It hasn't exactly been an autowin for them (especially against the BBEG they had to run from), but it has certainly won more than its share of fights. The biggest advantage of fireball is its range; it allows you to hurt the bad guys before they have a chance to get within effective bow range.
I removed a post. Don't do that.
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To actually contribute tot he topic, at PaizoCon 2010, I got to participate in an arena game, where the winner was whoever did the most damage in the time limit, all 5th level characters. The evoker won, hands down. Fireball might not deal that much damage to a single target. But the evoker was regularly able to hit two or three targets.
I don't know about that--adding metamagic increases the level, making it less and less worthwhile. I mean, 60 damage, even in a 20' radius, for a level 6 slot isn't realy worth it, is it?
With metamagic, we're looking at a minimum of a level 4 spell slot, and I don't see any reason to ever use Fireball with any amount of metamagic over Black Tentacles.
Blasting spells is like investing in the stock market. Go big or go home.
If you are paying full price to metamagic your favorite spell, you aren't serious about it. If you aren't picking feats and traits that reduce the metamagic cost, increase the save DC/damage output or increase the versatility of the spell, you are wasting your time. Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization, Magical Lineage, Spell Perfection, Elemental Spell, Selective Spell etc etc all change the game. 5d6 fire damage at 5th level is piddly. 7d6+3 fire/cold/acid/electrical (as needed, see admixture speciallist) damage at 5th level is not.
My PC's recently fought an evoker.
He threw fireballs. He threw lightning bolts. They took damage, but didn't die; and in the end the pc's won the encounter.
But....they LOVED the encounter. Call it what you will - the "classic feel", the "vintageness", whatever....nothing beats a good fireball or lightning bolt to convey that sense and imagery of "I'm going to kill you with magic".
5d6 fire damage at 5th level is piddly. 7d6+3 fire/cold/acid/electrical (as needed, see admixture speciallist) damage at 5th level is not.
5d6 damage is 17.5 average (8.75 on a save). 7d6+3 is 27.5 average (13.75 on a save). They're both kind of piddly, considering CR 5 enemies have ~60 HP.
You could contribute far more damage with Haste. Hell, Bull's Strength even adds 3 damage per swing to a two-handed weapon fighter--that deals more effective damage than your super buffed fireball after just 9 swings. You can control a group of enemies far better with Stinking Cloud.
I don't know, I just think it's a much better NPC spell than PC.
If you dump three fireballs on round one, haste isn't going to help the enemy. Say after me: automatic damage...
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5d6 fire damage at 5th level is piddly. 7d6+3 fire/cold/acid/electrical (as needed, see admixture speciallist) damage at 5th level is not.5d6 damage is 17.5 average (8.75 on a save). 7d6+3 is 27.5 average (13.75 on a save). They're both kind of piddly, considering CR 5 enemies have ~60 HP.
You could contribute far more damage with Haste. Hell, Bull's Strength even adds 3 damage per swing to a two-handed weapon fighter--that deals more effective damage than your super buffed fireball after just 9 swings. You can control a group of enemies far better with Stinking Cloud.
I don't know, I just think it's a much better NPC spell than PC.
Is it just me, or is dealing almost a third of a creature's hit points in damage--with one spell--against possibly more than one opponent no longer considered good?
Maybe it is just everyone wants to win the DPR Olympics, but come on! Your wizard or sorcerer is not a solo gladiator in an arena--he is part of a party. And if a 5th level wizard can deal an average of between 17.5 and 27.5 hit points against an opponent with 60; I'd consider that a win! Especially if I can damage two, three, four, or more threats at the same time.
I'm sorry, but I don't really buy into the 'if you don't kill it in one round, you failed' mentality.
Master Arminas
...doesn't work when the entire party has Evasion.
True. But how many creatures out there actually have evasion? I would not be preparing Fireballs and Lightning Bolts if my party was taking down a Thieve's Guild, however.
Master Armians
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I maintain that people who decry the low power of AoE damage spells such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt have not been facing enough low-CR opponents at higher levels.
When I design a 6 room dungeon for APL 10 the CR Spread usually looks like this.
CR 7 (1 x CR 7 Creature)
CR 10 (8 x CR 4 Creatures)
CR 10 (2 x CR 8 Creatures)
CR 10 (4 x CR 6 Creatures)
CR 10 (2 x CR 9 Creatures)
CR 13 (1 x CR 11 Creature + 2 x CR 9 Creatures)
This means that while all the fights are of appropriate APL, some will be cakewalks with an Evoker because a 10d6 Fireball against a group of 8 CR 4 monsters (averaging 4-6 HD) either means that fight is almost over right away or one-shotted. Saving valuable party resources for the other rooms.
Is it just me, or is dealing almost a third of a creature's hit points in damage--with one spell--against possibly more than one opponent no longer considered good?
Maybe it is just everyone wants to win the DPR Olympics, but come on! Your wizard or sorcerer is not a solo gladiator in an arena--he is part of a party. And if a 5th level wizard can deal an average of between 17.5 and 27.5 hit points against an opponent with 60; I'd consider that a win! Especially if I can damage two, three, four, or more threats at the same time.
I'm sorry, but I don't really buy into the 'if you don't kill it in one round, you failed' mentality.
Master Arminas
It has nothing to do with DPR Olympics. In fact, the point is that DPR is a pointless race to compete in. Spells that deal damage deal weak damage. The control spells, though, win fights.
Stinking Cloud, for example, is a much more devastating spell for a 3rd level slot. Slow is a hideously crippling spell to land. Hold Person. Black Tentacles. These things don't deal 1/3 of an enemy's HP, they [/i]end the fight early.[/i]
And where's the fun in ending the fight in one round? Yeah, it can be done. And I more than acknowledge the sheer efficiency of it. But, you what, I like my old 1st edition style wizards who throw a fireball even if it is not the most optimal thing they can do.
Master Arminas
So what do you do once you have them in your entangle spell? Your web? Your tentacles?
Your fireball them of course!
Control spells don't often win fights themselves. They only cripple the enemy. You still need something to finish the job, more often than not.
After all, the party sure as heck isn't going to want to go into your entangle/web/tentacles to finish off the enemy themselves.
And where's the fun in ending the fight in one round?
Well, in all fairness, you don't actually end it, you just effectively end it. The rest of your party ends the fight when they finish off the enemies you crippled, it's just inevitable after your spell.
So what do you do once you have them in your entangle spell? Your web? Your tentacles?
Smile, knowing that you've won the fight yourself while your allies finish them off and feel awesome themselves.
Control spells don't often win fights themselves. They only cripple the enemy. You still need something to finish the job, more often than not.
Ok, fair enough, but your actions still caused the victory, whether your party finishing them off knows or not.
After all, the party sure as heck isn't going to want to go into your entangle/web/tentacles to finish off the enemy themselves.
You overestimate the majority of players I've encountered.
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I know that having fought swarms with well over 200 HP at level 10, if I didn't have two fireballs and a lightning bolt prepped (and a handy lesser Empower rod) my party would've had to run. I was the only person with sufficient AoE to get the job done and the only person who could have the AoE to get the job done. A haste or dispel magic or stinking cloud or black tentacles or anything that doesn't do AoE damage would have been useless.
Hey, I helped too. Flamestrike looks really weak if your all busy hating on fireball (I think I've caught multiple targets... zero times) but its never wrong vs a swarm.
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Blasting spells is like investing in the stock market. Go big or go home.If you are paying full price to metamagic your favorite spell, you aren't serious about it. If you aren't picking feats and traits that reduce the metamagic cost, increase the save DC/damage output or increase the versatility of the spell, you are wasting your time. Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization, Magical Lineage, Spell Perfection, Elemental Spell, Selective Spell etc etc all change the game. 5d6 fire damage at 5th level is piddly. 7d6+3 fire/cold/acid/electrical (as needed, see admixture speciallist) damage at 5th level is not.
^This. On its own I still think it is a very good spell--just remember it isn't for the BBEG, it is for the mooks. Especially when they cluster up. Fireball time for sure.
But it really shines if you have the right feats. Even something as basic as a single "Sudden Maximize" or even "Sudden Empower" can brighten any mage's day. (I haven't closely examined these in Pathfinder, but I'm assuming they still work like they used to). Sure, you can only do it once per day, but if you *save* it for situations where it is actually needed, it can be a game-changer.
While I'm on the topic, I have never encountered the problem some folks here describe wherein the party goes out and blows their entire wad on the first freakin' encounter of the day (and then camps? Really?) Maybe it is because we're old school, but in the games I both play and GM, people hold onto their most powerful stuff until the situation looks pretty bad and then they unleash on the threats that actually merit it. If they tried that whole, "Yeah, I know it is only 10am, but we just unloaded everything we had on that level 1 commoner who threatened us with a rusty screwdriver, so we're going to camp" business, then they could pretty much expect something far, FAR worse to come visit them while they were camping. And just to add insult to injury, I'd make it something against which an empowered fireball would have been *really* helpful...
To waste everything and to give no thought to conservation of resources just sounds like something a 14 year old, with no ability to plan ahead, would do. There's a reason it works differently than it does in computer games. Plan ahead. Know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. . .or something like that.
Good points. Treantmonk's guide is very good, and no caster should just rely on damage spells.
Like others have already said, though, a mage built to do damage, especially with the new options in the post-CRB books, can do plenty, and do it in more ways than one.
5d6 fire damage at 5th level is piddly. 7d6+3 fire/cold/acid/electrical (as needed, see admixture speciallist) damage at 5th level is not.5d6 damage is 17.5 average (8.75 on a save). 7d6+3 is 27.5 average (13.75 on a save). They're both kind of piddly, considering CR 5 enemies have ~60 HP.
You could contribute far more damage with Haste. Hell, Bull's Strength even adds 3 damage per swing to a two-handed weapon fighter--that deals more effective damage than your super buffed fireball after just 9 swings. You can control a group of enemies far better with Stinking Cloud.
I don't know, I just think it's a much better NPC spell than PC.
Yes, Haste is a great spell, but you will only use it once per encounters (unless it is dispelled). Stinking Cloud is awesome too, but a lot of monsters are immune to it, so there's still room for Fireball in your 3rd-level spell slots. The campaing you play in will also affect the usefulness of Fireball. I converted Night Below to 3rd edition a few years ago, a mega-adventure featuring a lot of hack'n'slash against tons and tons of mooks. Because of this, the Fireball spamming Sorcerer was one of the most useful character in the party.
To me, it is a serious question about who is support to who. The scorching ray crowd here, if I understand correctly, think doing a little more damage to one target is better than a little less to many. They also think having very few hp is okay, because with dex, they take a few fewer hits.
Here is why it doesn't add up.
As a wizard or sorcerer, you are the main artillery. That means you have the job of killing those who hang back, behind the first line. As the enemy first line defends them, blocking your melee fighters, your melee needs to defend you. One really easy tactic then is to fireball, using metamagic etc appropriate to your level. With it, you stand a really good chance of outright killing the squishies, and in the age of mandatory minis, you will always be able to hit more than one enemy. Usually you will significantly damage several of the enemy first line. Note also that if the enemy wizard has dumped his con, he can count on being toast, or seriously weakened even at a successful save.
Don't discount it. Understand that if you want to dominate the battlefield, area damage is a very important part of your arsenal. It is YOU who are the worst threat to the enemy, you are not just another piddling combatant who can kill one critter per round. You don't snipe at the enemy to support the heavy hitters in the frontline. Think this way, and fireball is your friend, even with rising hit points all around.
And sorry to say it, buffs have to be rather extreme to win a fight for existing one round, which is what a proper area of effect fight should last, at least if you win initiative. Area of effect from two or three directions, then the melee fighters mop up with single attacks. Such situations always leave the buffers depressed.
I don't mind AoE doing less damage. But they should have boosted single-target spells to compensate.
Note that in 1st edition, fireballs did 1d6/lvl damage, and magic users got 1d4+2 from con. To balance this in the slightest, they got globes of invulnerability and fire shields. Fireballs were truly an existential threat to casters back then, and protection against them was essential. Remember also that this was in the days before both casting defensively and taking five foot steps, which generally meant that casters were dead if you got up close with them. Even in that situation, area spells were supreme.
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My wizard rarely memorizes fireball. He's 7th level, Int 16, and doesn't have any feats that enhance spells beyond combat casting. One night, the party was ambushed by some ogres and he only had blast spells memorized (fireball *and* lightning bolt). The wizard blasted away but the ogres charged in and killed the cleric. He firmly believes that the lack of battlefield control contributed to her death.
Now, luckily, the party has a wizard and a sorcerer so the wizard focuses on containment while the sorcerer makes with the explosions.
Usually any post that is totally correct will be largely ignored.
This means that while all the fights are of appropriate APL, some will be cakewalks with an Evoker because a 10d6 Fireball against a group of 8 CR 4 monsters (averaging 4-6 HD) either means that fight is almost over right away or one-shotted. Saving valuable party resources for the other rooms.
I just perused a random selection of CR4 enemies and I have to admit, I fail to see how the fight won't be a cakewalk regardless, nor do I think that a Fireball will be the best use of resources to fight them.
For one, the enemies all had HP clustered around 45 or so, which means it'd take an exceptionally high roll to finish them, and that assumes they don't save--and from what I saw, they all had Reflex saves around +7, meaning that they're making that save close to half the time.
Meanwhile, they're AC was all in the upper teens, which means full BAB classes can hit them by accident, and even 3/4 BABs should have no trouble. By level 10, aren't most fighting type characters dealing 45 damage a turn with weapons anyway?
Plus, their attack bonuses are mostly less than 10 and the damage was sad--usually just 1d8+4 or so.
Using a Fireball here probably saves time, but doesn't make it so much easier that a Wizard using a level 3 slot on Fireball is a good plan just in case this comes up. For a Sorcerer, yeah, it's a good plan, but not for a Wizard.
So, yes, a Sorcerer ought to have one level 3 damage spell in their arsenal, and it might as well be Fireball, since none of the others are especially better, and I've already said it's a great spell for the GM to use against the players. But none of that makes Fireball a good spell--none of it makes it as good as it used to be. Damage dealing just isn't the strong suit for magic anymore.
Fireball is the greatest spell there is. Burn up all the wicked!!!
I see people arguing that fireball has situational use, as a street sweeper against low-level mooks.
I guess maybe. But it's a long fall from the days when my 1e players would see a wizard and instantly scream "scatter!"
Doug M.
Just invent an evil cult who has learned how to craft one-use metamagic crystals (or their patrol Evil Being gives these as presents to its faithful followers).
Then those cultist wizards can all have a maximized fireball, but the PCs do not get a backpack full of Lesser Maximize metamagic rods.
Oh my goodness, this thread again? how many times are you gonna keep bickering about this subject?
I do. I've used it to great effect, too!
+1
A monster is not a PC. Not all monsters have good reflex saves and/or fire resistance.If used wisely and can whip out a whole room filed with monsters. I've seen it in actual game play.
It is not to be used in every encounter. In that regard haste is better. But fireball is still a good spell.
Stinking Cloud, for example, is a much more devastating spell for a 3rd level slot. Slow is a hideously crippling spell to land. Hold Person. Black Tentacles. These things don't deal 1/3 of an enemy's HP, they [/i]end the fight early.[/i]
First of all, there is no reason to eschew battlefield control entirely in favor of evocations. You can do both (Stinking Cloud + Wall of Fire) to better effect than either alone, obviously.
But a propperly statted out evoker is a viable and fun character to play, and Fireball can be a big cog in that machine.
Hold Person = single target, save for no effect, SR yes. Waste of a spell slot.
Slow = multi-target, save for no effect, SR yes. Almost as bad.
Black Tentacles = 4th level spell. Apples to Oranges.
Fireball vs Haste or Stinking Cloud? Yes, Fireball loses 90% of the time. My point is with the right build, the other 10% of the time it rocks, hard. Go back and look at the feats I listed and try to see the possibilities of an evocation/admixture specialist with the right feats and traits.
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Does anyone even use it any more?
Monster hit points have crept steadily upwards over the editions, but fireball has stayed fixed at 1d6/level. Back in 1e, when your average ogre had 19 hp (and Demogorgon himself only had 400), a fireball was bad news. A 6th level wizard had a better than even chance of killing that ogre (and any of his friends standing nearby) with one shot. Today the average ogre has 30 hp, and 6d6 of damage is just not that big a deal. Relative to the monsters, fireball is barely half the spell it used to be.
In 3.x, fireball has been overshadowed by ever more powerful buffs and utility spells and save-or-sucks. Even if you want to go blaster, you're probably better off with ranged touch attacks; the go-to damaging spell for the modern midlevel caster is not Fireball, but Scorching Ray.
Thinking about it, I can't remember a single fireball-slinging NPC arcanist in an AP or module. I'm sure there must be some, but I can't recall one offhand. Certainly not one who makes it the center of his tactics. Meanwhile, not a single PC of mine has voluntarily taken fireball since (thinks for a minute) maybe 2004? At third level, they're all grabbing for Fly and Haste and Dispel Magic. Nobody wants fireball.
Really. Nobody wants fireball.
Are we missing something?
Doug M.
It’s way too late but I have a build where you can cast a 10d6+30 fireball at 4th lvl.
1. 12 year necrobump.
setting the bar for the month pretty high.2. either post the build or don't allude to it. theres probably something you're overlooking.