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Upgrading a weapon costs the price of the final weapon minus the price of the base weapon.
Base weapon : +1 = 2350 GP (2000 for +1, free on blackblade + 300 for masterwork quality + 50 GP for the weapon, obviously depends on the base price of the weapon).
Going to a +2 enhancement (or +1 enhancement with +1 special quality) = 8350 - 2350 : 6000.
Also, a +1 Keen/Whatever weapon is still considered as only a +1 weapon, it just costs the same price than a +2 weapon.
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No need for a second point of view, it's in the rules :
Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
Thus, if you have a +1 Longsword from your blackblade, you would need to spend the full price of a +1 Keen weapon (price : +2, but is still a +1 weapon) or +2 weapon (price : +2, but is a +2 weapon) minus the price of your +1 Longword. Which would come down to 6000 GP, the difference between a +2 and a +1 weapon.
That all may well be RAW but there's no way I would let that fly as a DM. Since the blackblades enhancement bonus goes up by level that means that at 17th level you would have gotten a +5 keen weapon for the price of adding keen to a +1 weapon.
I also think that since one of the Magi's main things is slapping temporary abilities like keen onto their weapon they aren't really loosing out by the fact that their FREE black blades only got up to +5.
Tragicly I can't find anything in the rules to support this view.
Still you should be aware that there are DMs out there that wouldn't let it fly.
Torger
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That all may well be RAW but there's no way I would let that fly as a DM. Since the blackblades enhancement bonus goes up by level that means that at 17th level you would have gotten a +5 keen weapon for the price of adding keen to a +1 weapon.
Mmh... what ?
If the magus invests a lot into his weapon in early levels, it's his right and this is no more cheesy than investing in ways to cast more spells. I should also remind you that a magus may at any time spend points from his arcane pool to enhance his weapon with a stacking bonus, including to provide the Keen property to his weapon. Enhancing his own weapon is what a magus is the best at, since it's a magus.
Technically, the OP's magus would be best at lower levels if he enhanced fully his weapon, going for static +x instead of special properties because he can always spend points to provide these temporary useful properties to his weapon (flaming against cold enemies, etc.) ; but these enhancements would be lost when the magus reaches a high enough level, as the maximum +x bonus is +5.
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That all may well be RAW but there's no way I would let that fly as a DM. Since the blackblades enhancement bonus goes up by level that means that at 17th level you would have gotten a +5 keen weapon for the price of adding keen to a +1 weapon.
I also think that since one of the Magi's main things is slapping temporary abilities like keen onto their weapon they aren't really loosing out by the fact that their FREE black blades only got up to +5.
Tragicly I can't find anything in the rules to support this view.
Still you should be aware that there are DMs out there that wouldn't let it fly.
Torger
That's how this archetype is designed. Paizo fully knew what this meant and still did it. They may not always get the balance right, but they knew what the effects are if they did it like this.
The whole point of getting a blackblade is to gain a this weapon at the cost of your most important magus asset, the arcana pool. At level 17, that magus only gets 6 arcana pool + INT, as opposed to 8 + INT. Arcana pool is the lifeblood of the class, and every single point matters. The ability to recall spells is so vitally important to the class.
If your campaign goes to level 17, the full casters will be breaking out their greater metamagic rods, items that are much more unbalancing then a blackblade.
Technically, the OP's magus would be best at lower levels if he enhanced fully his weapon, going for static +x instead of special properties because he can always spend points to provide these temporary useful properties to his weapon (flaming against cold enemies, etc.) ; but these enhancements would be lost when the magus reaches a high enough level, as the maximum +x bonus is +5.
Or he can throw money towards his weapon at lower levels for +5 worth of abilities like keen or whatever then watch as it slowly becomes an effectively +10 weapon for super super cheap. Now he never has to spend his arcane pool on improving his weapon and can instead use it exclusively for other things. Suddenly the two less points in his pool and one arcana seems like no real trade off at all since he's effectively removed the biggest thing that he uses the pool for anyway.
From my point of view that's too much. As in all thing your milliage may varry and I'll point out again that I know there's no RAW to agree with me so if I'm standing alone on this one I recognize that.
Torger
That's how this archetype is designed. Paizo fully knew what this meant and still did it. They may not always get the balance right, but they knew what the effects are if they did it like this.
The whole point of getting a blackblade is to gain a this weapon at the cost of your most important magus asset, the arcana pool. At level 17, that magus only gets 6 arcana pool + INT, as opposed to 8 + INT. Arcana pool is the lifeblood of the class, and every single point matters. The ability to recall spells is so vitally important to the class.
I'm not going to argue designer intent because unless I'm arguing with someone who was in the room when they discussed this then one can neve know for sure.
What I will say is that yes, I agree every single arcane pool point matters.
So does every single gold peice woth of gear that you get. Over the course of a full progression a blackblade represents over 50,000gp that the magus never has to spend. (I say over because the black blade has a number of special abilities that would be difficult to price out).
That's a +5 protection item that he can buy with the money that he would have spent on a +5 weapon.
For me that's enough of a trade off without letting them get crazy cheap weapon abilities by investing early.
Torger
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The black blade is a magic weapon. As such you use the standard magic item upgrade rules when upgrading it (pay the difference).
I don't really see what all the fuss is about.
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Like, really ? You do know that when you have enough money to invest into upgrading your weapon with +5 worth of abilities, you are already at a crazy high-enough level, right ? Just getting a +2 equivalent needs you to be level 6, +3 equivalent level 9, +4 equivalent means you need to be at least level 11, all this following the normal Wealth By Level and not counting the base enhancement of the black blade.
It's not even "lower levels", it's "wait for the last third of most campaign's end".
Also, I don't believe the magus is still dominating the game with his shiny one-handed weapon, which he uses with a 2/3 BAB, plus an additional -2 penalty to attack if he wants to cast in the same round.
Like, really ? You do know that when you have enough money to invest into upgrading your weapon with +5 worth of abilities, you are already at a crazy high-enough level, right ? Just getting a +2 equivalent needs you to be level 6, +3 equivalent level 9, +4 equivalent means you need to be at least level 11, all this following the normal Wealth By Level and not counting the base enhancement of the black blade.
OMG
Yes...
Really...
I'm not sugesting that he'd ever be able to do it all in one lump sum go. Like everything else in the game it would be a gradual prcoess of him investing as soon as he has the money. Which would result in a huge net savings.
But most importanly, and the part I have a problem with is that it would have every other magus on the planet looking at him saying "damn I wish I'd gone that route."
Torger
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How would it go from +1 to +2 ?
If it's by the magus/paladin ability to enhance his weapon, then you get to choose what effects your additional points have on your weapon, as written in the Arcane Pool ability.
If you are crafting a +2 blade from a +1 blade and want it to be a +1 Keen blade, you just craft it to be like you want it to be from the beginning. If you want a +2 Keen weapon from a +1 weapon, it will cost you the price of a +3 weapon minus the price of the +1 weapon, etc.
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But most importanly, and the part I have a problem with is that it would have every other magus on the planet looking at him saying "damn I wish I'd gone that route."Torger
I've seen, like, 0 black blade build that would dwarf any other magus out there. It's just a weapon. Disarm it or make the attacks fail.
Or be a magus with Spell Recall and cast Black Tentacles once or twice more during the encounter... your awesome black blade will not save you against them. Or be a hexcrafter magus and begins round flying and making the bladebound reroll all attacks and take the worse rolls, cackle, rince and repeat while spellstriking shocking grasp or Frigid Touch on a 15-20 weapon and a grappled enemy.
I've seen, like, 0 black blade build that would dwarf any other magus out there. It's just a weapon. Disarm it or make the attacks fail.
Or be a magus with Spell Recall and cast Black Tentacles once or twice more during the encounter... your awesome black blade will not save you against them. Or be a hexcrafter magus and begins round flying and making the bladebound reroll all attacks and take the worse rolls, cackle, rince and repeat while spellstriking shocking grasp or Frigid Touch on a 15-20 weapon and a grappled enemy.
Good thing he has other gear to fall back on that he's purchased with all that money he's saved.
Look, it's clear that neither of us is going to change the other's mind. The OP asked a question. I've put up a differing opinion and argued it.
With that I exit the thread.
adeiu
- Torger
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Oh, then nope. It's a fix bonus, and it's voluntary as to avoid people who have weapon making coffee and enhancing them to +5 without having to restrain themselves with crafting and points.
When it's written the black blade becomes +2, it doesn't provide you with an enhancement bonus on the black blade - it says the black blade simply IS +2 now.
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Had this discussion in another thread.
Black Blades are not a magic item in the strictest sense of the term. They are class features that seem more like demi-artifacts at times. The only way they can improve is via magus class levels which can only give it an enhancement bonus (+1 to +5 as seen on the chart) spell point investment can give it further investments to enhancement, if less than +5 already, or special abilities as required.
The only way they can improve is via magus class levels...
You and I must be reading different books. I just don't see that rule anywhere.
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I second the idea that blackblades can't be further enhanced beyond the class ability. Giving up a couple of points of arcane pool isn't that much of a sacrafice for a free magic weapon. You still an arcane pool. I hadc a player that was interested in playing a blackblade and wanted a blade of a special material. I said no citing that at his level he couldn't afford it before he got the blackblade class feature. I also noted the rules were way too gray and vague on tha matter. He then asked about upgrading and stacking the upgrade with gold purchased ones. Once again it's grey so I said no.
But then again the guy that asked about this was the group munchkin. He always looks for obscure or grey area rules to exploit. Not suprisingly he opted to play a synthesist summoner instead. Another class/archtype with alot of "creative interpretaion" It took four hours to figure out what his character can and can't do by rules. I still had to adjucate some gey areas.
Moral of the story: if the group munchkin is all about it go over it with a finetooth comb. Know how it works and tell them your interpretation before it ever reaches the table.
On a side note there are better ways to make a blackblade magus AND be well within the rules no matter how they are interpreted. Its called two weapon fighting and spending your gold on the secondary weapon. That said I'm outa here ,no more questions....
The archetype strongly suggests that a Black Blade is an Intelligent item. Going by RAW, all sentient/ intelligent items must be permanent magical items (CRB pg 532.) Thus you could further enhance the Black Blade. Once an item has an magic enhancement bonus, it is now a magic item.
I personally think its going to cost more in the long run to attempt to further enhance it because of it's static enhancement bonus increases. It may end up by the time you have enough funds to give your +1 Black Blade the Keen property, you might have gain another level for bump the blade to a +2 weapon. This drastically raises the amount of gold you need to improve your weapon. Suddenly in might become inconvenient to level up because you may never actually have the correct fund available to improve your Blade Blade with enhancements you want to put onto it. It also might just turn out that you only get to put one actual enhancement onto it at low level and then run into money problems.
Their is also the fact that it is intelligent and could refuse to gain enchantments. It is it's own person and could refuse the magic, or simply not allow the Magus to use that ability. Even though it is on your side and generally agrees with you, that doesn't mean it needs to change itself just so you. It has it's own Arcane Pool and could reason it needs nothing else to further both of each others causes. The Magus also has his own Arcane Pool that grants those cool magic properties. If your that worried about your pool being a little lower, just take the Extra Pool feat and call it a day. Honestly, a feat for a progressing magic weapon for free is worth it. Can I have a feat that grants any of my other characters a progressive +5 weapon at the cost of a feat please?
My best suggestion to Magus's and DM's of Magus players is to read all of the Intelligent Items section in your CRB and get a clear understanding of it all.
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The black blade is a magic weapon. As such you use the standard magic item upgrade rules when upgrading it (pay the difference).
I don't really see what all the fuss is about.
I agree with this statement. Seems pretty cut and dry.
The black blade is an intelligent magical item, which means that spending additional GP to gain abilities on it beyond what the simple possession of it grants will alter the item's Ego score. Players and DMs should keep this in mind, since one of the risks of having a black blade is running into weapon/wielder conflicts related to its purpose.
O but that's the fun part! Ive seen some hilarious conflicts between intelligent items and their "owner".
I personally played a barbarian that got figuratively bent over by an epic artifact weapon he accidental picked up... basically became the DM's pet until I met its special purpose and it blew up.
I don't think that you should be able to permanently enchant a black blade beyond the plusses it gets when you level. Temporary effects from arcane points and spells should be ok though (just as they would be on a "normal" magic weapon). That's more of a vote/preference than an interpretation of RAW.
So I've got my Black Blade with its +1 enhancement bonus. Let's say I want to make it a keen (Also a +1 bonus) black blade, does it cost me 2000 or 8000?
And then, after spending however much gold, it does become a +2 keen black blade, yes?
The short answer is that it is unclear. I would say that if you wanted to add on Keen to your blade, independent of benefits provided by your class level, then you will need to pay 8k to upgrade the weapon to a +2 (= +1 + Keen)magic weapon.
When a BB is not in your hands, it acts as a masterwork sword. So, when the local wizard takes hammer and tongs to upgrade the blade, even if it is a +5 in your hands, it is MW to the smith.
What if you have craft arms and your magus class levels give the blade a +1 enhancement? Can you add keen onto the blade only paying 3k ((8k - 2k)/2)? I think we are in a rules pickle here. As a DM I would say yes, but the keen only functions when you wield the blade. Or, you could pay the 8k and have the BB be +1 keen AND that +1 enhancement would stack with the enhancement of your class levels. But, that may be too cheesy for other DMs since normally (there is at least one official exception) enhancement bonuses don't stack.
Remember in getting the BB you are giving up a number of additional damage spikes in exchange for more reliable damage.
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A good general rule to go by when interpreting ambiguous or unclear rules, is to take the path which causes less exceptions, the path that causes less ambiguity (since that's what we're trying to avoid), or avoid a path which encourages counter-intuitive behavior.
In this case, allowing the black blade to be enchanted causes all kinds of exceptions and odd behavior:
Ego
A black blade starts with an ego of 5, and that ego increases as the blade becomes more powerful... Due to its flexible and powerful nature, a black blade has a nonstandard ego progression.
There are no rules in the intelligent item section to explain what the ego increase of adding a +1 enchant to a weapon are. What there is, is rules for increasing the ego based on the new value of the weapon. Adding a +1 enchant could add anywhere from 0 ego (going from a +5 to a +6 weapon) to 4 ego (going from a +9 to a +10). The black blade has no defined base value, and its ego goes up in a progression that's entirely unrelated to its enhancement bonus. Therefore, there's no way to tell what adding an enhancement bonus would do to a black blade's ego. This leads to either ambiguity ("What's the new ego? I don't know how to calculate it.") or the counter-intuitive ruling that black blade ego does not go up as the weapon gets more enchants on it ("I can add enhancement bonuses to my blade because it's like a regular magic item, but the ego doesn't go up because it's not like a regular magic item").
Cost & leveling up
How much should an enchantment cost? Unlike what was pointed out above, the blade doesn't become masterwork in the hands of anyone but the magus - it just acts like it (i.e. it refuses to even be magically sharp, let alone use any other power). So we have to assume that it would be enchanted from whatever the current bonus is. Especially if you're doing the enchanting yourself. This leads to the entirely counter-intuitive result that it's cheaper to add keen as a 4th level character than it is as a 5th level one. So if you're 100 gold short, you're better off refusing to level up until you get that last little bit, get it enchanted, and then level. (There's no rule that I'm aware of which says you have to level the moment you get enough xp.)
"Overloading" enchantments
Based on the FAQ entry/errata that you can't ever go above a +10 bonus on a weapon, allowing the magus to enchant the blade means you have to figure out what happens if they reach a total of +10 at 16th level, then level to 17. With a paladin's divine bond (or any other temporary addition), you need to decide as a GM whether it overwrites some enchantments or whether points are just wasted. But either way, it's only a temporary change. With a black blade, you're permanently losing either part of your class feature (Enhancement bonus caps when the blade is "full") or the sizeable chunk of money you invested in enchanting it (and not even getting the half price back from selling it that fighters do).
In short, allowing the black blade to be enchanted causes a number of issues, ambiguities, and counter-intuitive behavior, which can all be resolved by resolving the initial ambiguity in the other direction. Obviously, if Paizo releases some errata to say that the blade can be enchanted, that takes precedence over the "better route" - but they'll have to address all the above issues first.
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NO no no- The black blade is already a +1 intelligent magic item which is unbreakable and gives you the alertness feat free.Upgrading a weapon costs the price of the final weapon minus the price of the base weapon.
Base weapon : +1 = 2350 GP (2000 for +1, free on blackblade + 300 for masterwork quality + 50 GP for the weapon, obviously depends on the base price of the weapon).
Going to a +2 enhancement (or +1 enhancement with +1 special quality) = 8350 - 2350 : 6000.
Also, a +1 Keen/Whatever weapon is still considered as only a +1 weapon, it just costs the same price than a +2 weapon.
Irrelevant, as you say it yourself : enhancing a weapon or an armor costs a price based on whatever previous enhancement (or absence of) was. Upgrading a +3 weapon to +4 would cost the price of the +4 minus the price of the +3.
Note that for a blackblade, you eventually get a +5 weapon plus the ability to enhance it further by an additional +5 in properties from your arcane pool - which essentially means that you effectively lose any advantage from enhancing it once at a high enough level (except for example for these awesome weapon enhancements a magus does not know : Dueling and Agile), including the loss of GP spent in enhancements that do not stack over the +10 total limitation.
If I ever face this problem as a GM I'll rule that if you enchant a blackblade that eats up the blade's next enhancement increases.
So all you will gain is that you get the enhancement bonus earlier and you get to chose a special ability.
If I ever face this problem as a GM I'll rule that if you enchant a blackblade that eats up the blade's next enhancement increases.
So all you will gain is that you get the enhancement bonus earlier and you get to chose a special ability.
And in return, he'll permanently gains a point the blades pool, or two, right?
Doesn't seem too fair to remove a feature without compensating for it, he's already crippling himself, because if he adds something as simple as Flaming, which is +1, means he can't use any +5 abilities, such as Vorpal, trough his pool.
I'll guess we better delay the Weapon Training benefits, because they do exactly what this does, except it's free and on a whole weapon group.
Heck, a Fighter basically gains a +1 enhancement with any One handed sword every four levels. Except his are free, don't increase the cost of upgrading his swords, and stack with his fully enchanted +5/+5 longsword.
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For what it's worth, JJ said here that you can't enchant a Magus' Black Blade with permanent properties.
Can the Black Blade granted a Blade Bound Magus be futher enchanted with permanent properties like spell storing?Nope. Unless your GM says it's okay.
For what it's worth, a Black Blade Magus has more Arcane pool than a standard Magus if you add the Black Blades Pool into the mix.
(Values shown are without Magus Int Bonus added)
Level: Standard Magus Pool
1: 1
2: 2
3: 2
4: 3
5: 3
6: 4
7: 4
8: 5
9: 5
10: 6
11: 6
12: 7
13: 7
14: 8
15: 8
16: 9
17: 9
18: 10
19: 10
20: 11
(Magus+Black Blade)
Level: Black Blade Magus Pool
1: 2 (1+1)
2: 2 (1+1)
3: 3 (2+1)
4: 3 (2+1)
5: 4 (2+2)
6: 5 (3+2)
7: 5 (3+2)
8: 5 (3+2)
9: 7 (4+3)
10: 7 (4+3)
11: 7 (4+3)
12: 8 (5+3)
13: 9 (5+4)
14: 9 (5+4)
15: 10(6+4)
16: 10(6+4)
17: 11(6+5)
18: 12(7+5)
19: 12(7+5)
20: 12(7+5)
So in essence a BB Magus has MORE Pool points then a standard, trades the 3rd level arcana for the Alertness feat, gets a progressive magic weapon for dealing with it's EGO and pile of free abilities as it levels up.
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This thread has been necro'd 3 times
lol
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For what it's worth, a Black Blade Magus has more Arcane pool than a standard Magus if you add the Black Blades Pool into the mix.
[tables deleted to save space]
So in essence a BB Magus has MORE Pool points then a standard, trades the 3rd level arcana for the Alertness feat, gets a progressive magic weapon for dealing with it's EGO and pile of free abilities as it levels up.
You are a "bit" wrong.
1) In Pathfinder all fractions are rounded down and the Bladebound magus get his black blade at third level, so this the bladebound magus progression
(Magus+Black Blade)
Level: Black Blade Magus Pool
1: 1 (1+0)
2: 1 (1+0)
3: 2 (1+1)
4: 2 (1+1)
5: 3 (1+2)
6: 4 (2+2)
7: 4 (2+2)
8: 4 (2+2)
9: 6 (3+3)
10: 6 (3+3)
11: 6 (3+3)
12: 7 (4+3)
13: 8 (4+4)
14: 8 (4+4)
15: 9 (5+4)
16: 9 (5+4)
17: 10(5+5)
18: 11(6+5)
19: 11(6+5)
20: 11(6+5)
2) then till level 12 the black Blade points can be spent only in specific uses that enhance the Black blade only. They are not "generic" Arcana point usable by the magus.
At level 13 the bladebound magus acquire the ability to siphon Arcana points from the Black blade once/day, if he make a Will sawing throw against the black Blade ego. And hen if get 1 Arcane point for each 2 arcane point siphoned from the blade.
Very different from having more points than a normal magus.
BTW, the standard magus progression is
Level: Standard Magus Pool
1: 1
2: 1
3: 1
4: 2
5: 2
6: 3
7: 3
8: 4
9: 4
10: 5
11: 5
12: 6
13: 6
14: 7
15: 7
16: 8
17: 8
18: 9
19: 9
20: 10
This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier.
Not "1+1/2 his magus level".
Magus just ownes dont need money for weapon with black blade and money can be pritty powerfull in other stuff! wands and pearls!!