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There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.
There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
A cohort isn't an eidolon/familiar/animal companion - it is a character, while full character levels.
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A cohort isn't an eidolon/familiar/animal companion - it is a character, while full character levels.There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
That's what I said, and bolded as such. The statements about eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc were for people who were asking if these things could take the feat, which they cannot.
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Technically nothing stops a cohort from taking leadership. In fact one could argue that those who learn to follow can make the best leaders.
However, in terms of game mechanics, you will ultimately find this a very bad idea. A multiplication of lower level cohorts mean that they will ALL crap out singlehandedly from one well placed cone of cold or chain lightning.
Smart players will mitigate this risk by spreading the cohorts geographically and having them perform non-combat duties, behind the scenes. In that manner, multiple cohorts are not so disruptive and a good way to illustrate the character's influence 'growing'. However, said players should not whine and accept that his army of 'little birds' is entirely at the mercy of the GM, and accept that they may fall for a variety of reasons.
Finally, it should be agreed between the players beforehand that cohorts and followers are not to be targeted by other players, and that the same rule against player vs. player violence should be enacted between players' cohorts and followers. If such an agreement is not reached (i.e. if some players due to either alignment of in-character reasons still intend to target a fellow player's cohort(s) and followers), then the player should agree that Leadership is not a good feat choice for this campaign. In effect, Leadership is one of those few feats where other players really should have a say. But it should be done up front, openly and not in a retaliatory manner.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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PDK has it right on Cohorts. The feat also helps with 'running businesses' (I had a 3.5 wizard, with a battlemage cohort. Allowed my PC to not have to prepare blasting spells all the time. He also owned a ship. My cohort was the first mate, the followers were the crew. If I'd played my cohort with leadership, her cohort would have been a captain of another ship, and so on. (giving me a 'fleet' that I'd never likely use).
For true 3.5 cheese, the XPH Thrallherd could take this to a new level, with two thralls, each of which could be thrallherds... We used to joke that if you needed a 3 ring binder to play your PC... you're doing it wrong.
There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
NPCs are not designed by players.
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NPCs are not designed by players.There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
Turns out that the lead developer disagrees with you.
I'm annoyed that I had to go find that, also found one by SKR, but I feel like that one's less relevant.
So yeah, gonna say that the player makes the cohort unless there's any evidence to the contrary you have.
N. Jolly's right that Jason said it's usually the player. Ultimate Campaign and Cohorts and Companions both go into this in more detail, with actual rules and stuff, and they explain that one reason it's usually the player who makes build calls is that the GM already has a lot of work to do, then they discuss pros and cons of different ways of handling it (though they both stress that in the end, it's an NPC, so the GM has the potential to adjust the cohort's response to a situation, possibly based on information the player doesn't have; see C&C p4 first paragraph, for instance). One idea in C&C that was pretty interesting was that if one players has like a cohort and an animal companion and summons and someone else has nothing, it can be fun to have the player with no other characters play the cohort, both to help manage time per turn and spotlight, and to allow for more banter (and less mind reading) than a single person can usually have with herself.
NPCs are not designed by players.There are no rules to prevent the NPC cohort, that the GM designs, from having Leadership.There's also nothing in the rules that state that the GM designs the cohort. I seem to remember a dev quote about how since it's the PC's ability, they're the ones who are allowed to design it, but really I don't feel like digging through old statements at the moment.
Regardless, the (pc designed) cohort can have it, although since it requires character level 7th, and eidolons/familiars/animal companions/etc don't have character levels, they cannot take it. NPCs with character levels though? Those are fine.
Turns out that the lead developer disagrees with you.
I'm annoyed that I had to go find that, also found one by SKR, but I feel like that one's less relevant.
So yeah, gonna say that the player makes the cohort unless there's any evidence to the contrary you have.
That's not a rule, and it's not even conclusive. 'Usually'.
We 'usually' allow people to make their own characters, but if they are unbalanced, we talk to them about it.
Anyway, don't be annoyed. The lead developer doesn't disagree with me, he just has an opinion about how a poorly defined feat should be treated. Since his statement was made before mine, he CAN'T disagree with me... he just voiced an opinion.
Nothing that has been published in the rules indicates that players get to make NPCs, and Cohorts are NPCs... so... yeah.
I don't need to provide evidence of a restriction, the people who are making NPCs need to provide evidence that allows them to do so.
But play it however you like.
In any case, there is nothing preventing a Cohort from having Leadership.
If you follow the suggested guidelines for making an NPC the usually are not that bad.
Rather than use a google mirror, go directly to the SRD:
Non Player Characters/cevah
Well different people, different views.
Personally i usually make my cohorts , no issues with it at all , i just dont go for game breaking things and the GM doesnt get annoyed about it.
N. Jolly's right that Jason said it's usually the player. Ultimate Campaign and Cohorts and Companions both go into this in more detail, with actual rules and stuff, and they explain that one reason it's usually the player who makes build calls is that the GM already has a lot of work to do, then they discuss pros and cons of different ways of handling it (though they both stress that in the end, it's an NPC, so the GM has the potential to adjust the cohort's response to a situation, possibly based on information the player doesn't have; see C&C p4 first paragraph, for instance). One idea in C&C that was pretty interesting was that if one players has like a cohort and an animal companion and summons and someone else has nothing, it can be fun to have the player with no other characters play the cohort, both to help manage time per turn and spotlight, and to allow for more banter (and less mind reading) than a single person can usually have with herself.
Don't know how I missed this before posting the other stuff I put.
In our games, PCs are allowed to make their Cohort, but GM has veto power at every stage (basically we allow it, not as a rule, but as a courtesy).
We do NOT permit Leadership on them if the Cohort's Cohort is intended to join the group.
Most common use in our games: Running things back home.
We have a houserule regarding number of things you control (even though you don't 'control' NPCs)-1 extra per player.
So Druid with Animal Companion, sure. Same Druid with Leadership? Sure... but Cohort stays at home.
It's worked for us! :D
As far as actual RULES go, I still haven't seen anything explicitly stating that players get to design NPCs, I have seen suggestions, and people saying they do it a certain way... so, Mark Seifter, what (if any) rules actually apply to this?
:D
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Personally I'd like to see a clarification for the leadership feat about this, since the feat is admittedly ambiguous, leading to situations like this. The question of who makes the cohort has come up a LOT before (which I found out even more looking for said quote about it), and it doesn't seem like it's going to stop anytime soon.
Personally I'd like to see a clarification for the leadership feat about this, since the feat is admittedly ambiguous, leading to situations like this. The question of who makes the cohort has come up a LOT before (which I found out even more looking for said quote about it), and it doesn't seem like it's going to stop anytime soon.
I find it amusing how often it is simply banned, rather than clarified by the GM.
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They've 'clarified' it as much as they are going to. They've given guidance in multiple books on cohort generation, but are only ever going to leave it as guidance, so a group can determine on their own how they are going to deal with this 'advanced' topic.
Group Dynamics should not be codified into rules.
They've 'clarified' it as much as they are going to. They've given guidance in multiple books on cohort generation, but are only ever going to leave it as guidance, so a group can determine on their own how they are going to deal with this 'advanced' topic.
Group Dynamics should not be codified into rules.
Eidolons , familiars , AC ...
As far as i know , in all of them the PC creates the NPC and that is said in the book.
I find weird that in the leadership case it sudenly becomes "Group Dynamics" to say who should creates it.
It seems pretty clear that if the Feat is allowed in game, it's crazy unbalanced not to allow NPCs /Monsters to take it as well, right? Requirement: Player Character is not in the rules. At which point, PCs are not actually in a better position than they would be without the Feat, the only difference is that actual APL/CR calculations are obfuscated by the Feat mechanics and attendant work managing it. Obviously, by nature NPC bosses will get access to the Feat before PCs do, so in that level band PCs will be facing off against much more NPCs who aren't counted towards CR... Fun times.
Paizo has entertained the idea of the Feat, which seems to exist because of 3.x BW-compatability, with basic level advise on how to use it.... (only addressing PC usage AFAIK) ...But hasn't really justified it's balance, which I don't think anybody CAN... I mean, Paizo doesn't let you get a FAMILIAR with 1 Feat but Leadership gets you a Wizard WITH their own Familiar and a bunch of Followers. Come on.
NPCs can be brought in as followers for story reasons (incl. bringing unique class capabilities) just thru normal APL/CR rules, which is a much more balanced approach than ascribing them to a Feat which players must really really hope that NPCs don't get built with.
...........This.......is.......beautiful.........
- Play an Alchemist with a Tumor Familiar.
- Take a level of Beast-Bonded Witch.
- Now your cancer can get his own cohort!
I may have missed something super obvious, but how does this work?
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