RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There are some differences between crossbows and bows.
For one thing, you don't apply a STR penalty to damage with a crossbow, but you do with a bow.
Second, crossbows crit more easily than bows. (Threat range of 19-20 instead of just 20.)
Third, you generally can't use a bow while prone, but you can use a crossbow just fine while prone.
1.Is there a way to reasonably get multiple attacks from a Double Crossbow?
2.Can you make multiple attacks while dual wielding light crossbows with rapid reload?
3.With feat efficiency and reload time in mind, why would my Inquisitor use a crossbow over a longbow except for flavor purposes?
4.Any reason to use a firearm instead of bows or crossbows? Any real benefit besides the damage being B&P?
Longbows are just flat out better than crossbows.
1.I thought there was, but I can't seem to find it. If nobody else can find a way then it is better to go with a heavy crossbow if you really want the flavor or just go with a longbow if you want the damage.
2. No, because you still need a free hand to reload a crossbow even if it is light.
3. He wouldn't.
4. Not really, not unless you plan on taking gunslinger levels.
Honestly.... If you really want to use cross bows, look at repeater cross bows. All the benefits of a normal cross bow, but you can fire as many times in a round as you have BAB since it's a free-action to pull the lever and notch the bolt from the 5-bolt cartridge... Crossbow Mastery would allow you to reload the cartridge as a free action, rather than as a standard action with Rapid Reload. This would also allow you to fire off that one extra shot with Rapid Shot...
Takes a few levels but Repeater Cross bows get really fun. Just ask my Pharasman Inquisitor.
I blame Van Helsing for all this crossbow nonsense. :)
As I mentioned on your other topic, Monkey Style for getting up from prone faster. Kind of hard for you to access though a monk dip helps.
I'm planning on using it for a Zen Archer (should I get a chance to play him), he can't shoot prone, but he can get up from it quick enough to full attack anyway.
Looks like it is pointless for me to take Crossbow Mastery unless I am using a Heavy Crossbow, especially since the Double Crossbow seems like a lost cause for me.
Although I don't see why I would need a Repeater Crossbow with Crossbow Mastery (at that point all reloads are free except for double).
Repeater cross bows require a Full-Round action to reload their 5 bolt cartridge. At 20th level, you get 3 attacks as an inquisitor. Ok, fine. After your two attacks next round, you're out, and need to wait until the NEXT round to reload, and the round after to repeat the process.
Rapid Reload reduces this to a standard action. Alrighty, still effectively the same thing, but at least you can move during the reload. Rapid Shot gives you one extra ranged attack. So you're firing 4 times the one round, once the next, reload, repeat.
Crossbow Mastery with the Repeater would allow you to get the 4 attacks each round. Round 1: Fire, fire, fire, fire. Round 2: Fire, Reload for free, fire fire fire. So on and so forth.
Now, typically there is no real reason to stick with Crossbows (of which I personally believe repeaters happen to be the best). However, if you have a logistical minded DM, consider the fact that a cartridge of bolts takes less space than arrows, effectively. Even an efficient quiver can only hold, I think, 60 arrows. You can attempt to convince your DM to let you get bandoleers for your crossbow cartridges, and hell, just shove them into your handy haversack.
Then again, I'm the guy who left town after an adventure at fourth level with 100 cartridges.... Didn't have to worry about bolts for a LONG time.
Your judgment should basically always be + atk, so rapid shot shouldn't be too much an issue.
I think I see what you mean Artemis, it was just seeming to me that with Crossbow Mastery the Reload for a light or Heavy Crossbow is free so using a repeater would just save you some bolt space. I should still be able to get off my full attacks in a given round.(basically the benefit the repeater gives you is negated by the free reloads, sorry if I am just totally missing something)
Actually technically the disadvantage of repeaters is negated by the free reloads. Remember. Reloading a repeater is a fullround action. Standard action with Rapid Reload. Crossbow Mastery lets to give that the middle finger and reload the cartridge for free.
Basic advantages of the Repeater that my Inquisitor has learned in game so far: Bolt space, and it's harder to LOSE your ammo. Some well placed shot destroys your quiver? You are officially screwed with arrows. Someone manages to screw with whatever is holding your bolts for a normal crossbow? Same thing since you can still only load up one. Someone snatches your cartridges? Pfft, you still got (insert number of bolts left in cartridge here) shots left. Of course this is really only a problem if your DM realizes he can even the odds in his favor by doing it, lol.
Plus, Crossbows crit on a 19-20/x2, or 17-20/x2 with improved crit. Which means you should effectively be critting more than the Longbow..... Also when it comes to Heavy Repeaters, you got a 1d10 base damage, so... Icing on the cake baby. Barring the occasional composite long bow with a +2 strength mod, it's the best damage out of ranged weapons..... Well, except for the Heavy Crossbow, but a Heavy Repeater just gets more DPR than a single crossbow.
Honestly, Crossbows get shafted when it comes to Crossbows VS Bows. About the only plus side to Crossbows, usually, is that they're simple, or have some minor increase in base damage. There are just too many feats and archetypes favoring traditional Bows, just to keep elves happy.
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I think I see what you mean Artemis, it was just seeming to me that with Crossbow Mastery the Reload for a light or Heavy Crossbow is free so using a repeater would just save you some bolt space. I should still be able to get off my full attacks in a given round.(basically the benefit the repeater gives you is negated by the free reloads, sorry if I am just totally missing something)Actually technically the disadvantage of repeaters is negated by the free reloads. Remember. Reloading a repeater is a fullround action. Standard action with Rapid Reload. Crossbow Mastery lets to give that the middle finger and reload the cartridge for free.
Basic advantages of the Repeater that my Inquisitor has learned in game so far: Bolt space, and it's harder to LOSE your ammo. Some well placed shot destroys your quiver? You are officially screwed with arrows. Someone manages to screw with whatever is holding your bolts for a normal crossbow? Same thing since you can still only load up one. Someone snatches your cartridges? Pfft, you still got (insert number of bolts left in cartridge here) shots left. Of course this is really only a problem if your DM realizes he can even the odds in his favor by doing it, lol.
Plus, Crossbows crit on a 19-20/x2, or 17-20/x2 with improved crit. Which means you should effectively be critting more than the Longbow..... Also when it comes to Heavy Repeaters, you got a 1d10 base damage, so... Icing on the cake baby. Barring the occasional composite long bow with a +2 strength mod, it's the best damage out of ranged weapons..... Well, except for the Heavy Crossbow, but a Heavy Repeater just gets more DPR than a single crossbow.
Honestly, Crossbows get shafted when it comes to Crossbows VS Bows. About the only plus side to Crossbows, usually, is that they're simple, or have some minor increase in base damage. There are just too many feats and archetypes favoring traditional Bows, just to keep elves happy.
Lots of good points made in defense of xbows.
As an Inquisitor your get Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use repeaters so why not do it?
There are spells to get around reload times...
Just buff up that UMD or have the party caster keep a wand of them around to help you out.
Also keep in mind that Weapon Cords make retrieving a weapon a Swift Action. So, after you empty your clip all you have to do is drop it (Free Action), tell the Unseen Servent or the Reloading Hands to reload it, and wait for your next turn. On your next turn you use your Swift Action to retrieve the weapon and go back to shooting.
Fluff your inquisitor as nature themed, and ask to get Aspect of the Falcon.
Make that crossbow 19-20/x3 :D and with improved crit, it's 17-20/x3!
And Gravity Bow is a nice addition too...inreases the damage die one step.Fluff your inquisitor as nature themed, and ask to get Aspect of the Falcon.
Make that crossbow 19-20/x3 :D and with improved crit, it's 17-20/x3!
Yea, but that's only about 1 or 2 extra points of damage on average :(
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Yea, but that's only about 1 or 2 extra points of damage on average :(And Gravity Bow is a nice addition too...inreases the damage die one step.Fluff your inquisitor as nature themed, and ask to get Aspect of the Falcon.
Make that crossbow 19-20/x3 :D and with improved crit, it's 17-20/x3!
True, but if the selling point of bows is adding STR to get another point or 2 of damage then Gravity Bow atleast keeps xbows in the running...not that you can't use Gravity Bow on your bow...but still.
Double true ossian. High crit range and multiplier is nice, but if you don't have static damage to multiply...bleh.
DDO had a rogue specialty path that was called the Mechanic.
One of their features was their ability to add Intelligence modifier to damage with crossbows.
I'm inclined to allow crossbows to use a mental score bonus as bonus damage.
Does it make sense? No. How does it work? Magic. Does it help fix the problem? Yep. In a clean and elegant way too.
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Double true ossian. High crit range and multiplier is nice, but if you don't have static damage to multiply...bleh.
DDO had a rogue specialty path that was called the Mechanic.
One of their features was their ability to add Intelligence modifier to damage with crossbows.
I'm inclined to allow crossbows to use a mental score bonus as bonus damage.
Does it make sense? No. How does it work? Magic. Does it help fix the problem? Yep. In a clean and elegant way too.
My problem is that the Gunslinger class has the ability after so much time to add DEX to damage with guns, but there is no feat or way to increase damage from xbows. From a fairness standpoint I'd allow even a feat requiring BAB +5 and proficiency/select one xbow to add DEX to damage...
Just since we are the topic of Crossbows....
Here's something really odd. There is a feat call Prone Shooter in the Ultimate Combat Book which allows you to shoot a crossbow or pistol while prone with no penalty. Then in the Combat section of the Core Rule book it says there is no penalty for ranged attacks while prone if you use a Crossbow or Shuriken. So what is the point of the Prone Shooter Feat? Then under the special it says you can apply the benefit of this feat to slings. So really this feat should Prone Sling Shooter.
Also there is Rapid Reload in the Core and in the Ultimate Combat book and the feats are identical. I was under the impression that it was like Improve Rapid Reload in the Ultimate Combat book just they missed the improved part but the text is the same.
When it comes to crossbows I think they should do 1.5 times strength damage for crossbows built for strong users. Cocking a crossbow with a strong pull should offer the same ability to add strength bonus to damage and since you can apply mechanics to help cock the crossbow.
Just since we are the topic of Crossbows....
Here's something really odd. There is a feat call Prone Shooter in the Ultimate Combat Book which allows you to shoot a crossbow or pistol while prone with no penalty. Then in the Combat section of the Core Rule book it says there is no penalty for ranged attacks while prone if you use a Crossbow or Shuriken. So what is the point of the Prone Shooter Feat? Then under the special it says you can apply the benefit of this feat to slings. So really this feat should Prone Sling Shooter.
Also there is Rapid Reload in the Core and in the Ultimate Combat book and the feats are identical. I was under the impression that it was like Improve Rapid Reload in the Ultimate Combat book just they missed the improved part but the text is the same.
When it comes to crossbows I think they should do 1.5 times strength damage for crossbows built for strong users. Cocking a crossbow with a strong pull should offer the same ability to add strength bonus to damage and since you can apply mechanics to help cock the crossbow.
Rapid Reload in UC includes firearms.
The CRB version does not, IIRC.
Just since we are the topic of Crossbows....
Here's something really odd. There is a feat call Prone Shooter in the Ultimate Combat Book which allows you to shoot a crossbow or pistol while prone with no penalty. Then in the Combat section of the Core Rule book it says there is no penalty for ranged attacks while prone if you use a Crossbow or Shuriken. So what is the point of the Prone Shooter Feat? Then under the special it says you can apply the benefit of this feat to slings. So really this feat should Prone Sling Shooter.
Also there is Rapid Reload in the Core and in the Ultimate Combat book and the feats are identical. I was under the impression that it was like Improve Rapid Reload in the Ultimate Combat book just they missed the improved part but the text is the same.
When it comes to crossbows I think they should do 1.5 times strength damage for crossbows built for strong users. Cocking a crossbow with a strong pull should offer the same ability to add strength bonus to damage and since you can apply mechanics to help cock the crossbow.
Rapid Reload in UC includes firearms.
The CRB version does not, IIRC.
Can't help with the Prone Shooter feat but... This, for Rapid Reload. They basically just released the updated version in UC rather than list it as an errata... Another one of their "stealth errata"s.
Actually technically the disadvantage of repeaters is negated by the free reloads. Remember. Reloading a repeater is a fullround action. Standard action with Rapid Reload. Crossbow Mastery lets to give that the middle finger and reload the cartridge for free.
Again, great points, especially with increasing crit threat. Of course I am still using every feat I have to apply to my crossbow which I am not sure I want to commit that far on.
But my last point on the Heavy Crossbow with Crossbow Mastery vs. Heavy Repeater Crossbow with Crossbow Mastery is this:
-With Rapid Reload/Crossbow Mastery reloading a Heavy Crossbow is free and you can make as many attacks per round as you are capable.
-Rapid Reload/Crossbow Mastery with a Repeating Heavy Crossbow would have the exact same effect, sure it reduces reloading the cartridge is free, but your regular crossbow reloads for free as well.
So to me this is the exact same situation mechanically, especially given that reloading no longer provokes AOO.
(promise I'll let it rest after this)
Excellent point, and yes, this is the case. Really the only advantage to a repeater after Crossbow Mastery is it's generally safer, given that you have some bolts left in the cartridge after something does away with whatever is holding them at the time. Like I said, it only becomes a worry if you have a DM play intelligent encounters. Mine does so regularly (I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how many sunder attempts on archer quivers enemy archers make).
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Crossbows are for STR-dumpers who exploit numerical bonuses with a extended threat-range weapon. E.g., a gnome paladin making ranged smites with a Keen light crossbow = d6 + gazillion on a 17-20 crit. If he's STR8, he gets a LOT of bang for the gold-piece with a 8,000gp weapon and a single feat into Rapid Reload shortly after BAB6 or Boots of Speed acquisition or party wizard gets Haste. Your odds of getting a crit-threat in one round's worth of three shots from such a Keen crossbow are 48.8%.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Excellent point, and yes, this is the case. Really the only advantage to a repeater after Crossbow Mastery is it's generally safer, given that you have some bolts left in the cartridge after something does away with whatever is holding them at the time. Like I said, it only becomes a worry if you have a DM play intelligent encounters. Mine does so regularly (I cannot even BEGIN to tell you how many sunder attempts on archer quivers enemy archers make).
I think the big advantage of the repeater is before you have the feats in place to get crossbow mastery. You can build out things like deadly aim and rapid shot before grabbing rapid shot and crossbow mastery. Then you can switch to a straight heavy crossbow when you take Mastery.
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Can't help with the Prone Shooter feat but... This, for Rapid Reload. They basically just released the updated version in UC rather than list it as an errata... Another one of their "stealth errata"s.
I wouldn't call it a "stealth errata" as the Core rulebook don't contain rules for firearms, so it is logic for the feat description in the core rulebook not to mention them. You could imagine the confusion if a player were to find references to firearms in the Core rulebook but not the actual rules for firearm use? :P
If the GM is a "simulationist" like me a crossbow has some limited advantage.
You can make better use of cover. With a shortbow or a crossbow you can kneel behind a low wall or parapet and get cover bonuses, with a longbow and possibly with a composite longbow you can't. With the longbow you need a vertical obstacle to get the cover or partial cover bonus.
Another small advantage against a longbow would be that it is more difficult to fire at target right above you with a longbow tha with a crossbow.
RAW you can fire a crossbow from horseback, while you can't fire a longbow (but you can fire a composite longbow, so generally it is a meaningless advantage).
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Fun fact: keen is a melee only weapon enhancement.
I know it's over a year old but searching info myself on making a crossbow Inquisitor....
What about Guided Weapon enchant on said repeating crossbow....
Here is what I think.
Composite bow add strength to your damage, not other bow. So you get the best damage with it. On top of that, you have slightly longer range. Also you can use it while mounting, even better! However, the problem of it is the strength rate, it's like a double edge sword. If you have strength higher than the strength rate, you can add damage to your attacks up to the strength rate. If you don't have enough strength rate, you can use it at all. Which makes enemies with strength damage attacks very effective at killing you.
Normal bow, doesn't give you any awesome damage rate like composite bows, also you can't use longbow while mounting. However, you can attack at ease knowing that you can still attack even if you have low strength penalties. Just keep in mind that if you strength is lower than 10, you add the penalty from your strength modifier to your attacks.
Crossbow, one weapon that many many players over looked. While bows are awesome, they are martial and not many class can use it. It's more for low level casters and rouge as a back up range weapon. Crossbow has higher crit rate and longer range, if cast keen edge to bolts, you have a 20% chance to auto hit and might even confirm critical. Like many critical weapons, it doesn't require full BAB to be effective, perfect for rouge try to assassin someone from afar. All crossbow have one thing in common, they take at least a move action to reload. So it means you can't move if you want to make the max damage out put. Bow can make more damage with full round action? Yes, of course, but you don't understand the use of crossbow. You don't use it in normal combat, you can not win this way. The proper way of using it is when you are against ranged enemies. Keen your bolts, take cover, prone, called shot their head one by one while your defender smash everyone away from you. Barbarian would be the perfect defender in this case as he has damage reduction, which means he can take hits from arrows better than most people. Anyway, when using a crossbow, you are hoping to pop someone's head with a critical rather than kill them with damage, maybe you can kill one enemy with a single shot if you are lucky. That's why always load your crossbow when you have time, carry more than one crossbow is always a good idea as you can shoot two at the same time(especially for hand crossbow).
In the case for Inquisitor, repeating crossbow is more promising than normal bow as they have higher crit rate and longer range. However, it is also depends on your team. If your defender is good at holding enemies away from you, crossbow will give you more chance to crit and deal better damage. But if your defender is not good at holding enemies and your caster doesn't field control, bow will be better as you can move then attack.
From a purely mechanical PoV... crossbows are terrible weapons. Unfortunately, bows are the only good ranged weapons in the game. Unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter, then firearms are good too.
I've seen and made this comparison before. Crossbows simply can't compete. Unless you have a Str penalty, that is. If your Str score is 10 or higher, bows are much more effective.