Last session my players slaughtered a large quantity of demons using only one procedure. Each time the wich would use the slumber hex (a supernatural ability, so no SR applies. Moreover, he really buffed the DC his hexes) and the fighter would perform a coup de grace (wich either kills the creature instantly or results in an impossible-to-beat fortitude save). Am I missing something here? Is this a legit procedure? Im affraid they will ruin the demon-heavy adventure I prepared.
Yep. It's one of the best abilities they have and was fully intentional.
Add undead and constructs. They are mindless. Give your demons iron will. And improved iron will.
But don't do that too often. They found something that they like and are having fun doing. It requires teamwork, and no one in the party is being marginalized. Anyone can coup de grace.
Another option that a lot of people might not like is to house rule coup de grace to be just a free crit (perhaps with the crit modifier bumped up a step) without any save vs death. We're using this option (without the crit bump so far) in most games I'm in right now. It stops the Slumber hex or Frigid Touch plus Gentle Rest from being an instant death sentence (DC 50 Fort save type of stuff). It also lets the DM use ghouls, ghasts, and carrion crawlers without asking "Ok, does everybody have at least 2 Hero Points?"
We've had 3 encounters with ghouls/ghasts in my Saturday game, and in 2 of 3 somebody got paralyzed. The PCs are currently 7th level so far and have never failed to defeat a monster due to this house rule. In a biweekly game I play in we did have a behir get away, but honestly it was much more exciting for the group to have the Witch and Barbarian team up for 70-ish damage to the behir but then still get to fight it than to save or die it in the very first round (which is when it failed the save).
If a monster (or PC) is already hurt then the crit might very likely kill them, especially if you bump up the modifier. Even if you don't use our house rule you should remember the demon's DR against the coup de grace. It might help a little...sort of...
Of course introducing a house rule in the middle of play after the PCs have just discovered a highly effective tactic could cause a lot of strife. This rule goes in easier at low levels when ghouls and maybe some NPC Witches are giving the party a tough time with paralysis.
Another option could be to have the monsters use stealth tactics and mobility to stay away from the heavy hitters and eat the delicious Witches first. Honestly, if the bad guys get a turn or two and scare a PC with a full attack that's about all you can expect sometimes.
Thanks for the advice. I really like the rule DevilKiller suggests, but I understand it will be hard too introduce in the middle of the game. More variation in monsters and Iron Will are interesting options too!
Is this a legit procedure? Im affraid they will ruin the demon-heavy adventure I prepared.
Legal for them, legal for you.
The witch in my group has agreed to not abuse the Slumber hex, for fear of both trivializing encounters, and having it turned about on the party.
Other than that, if it's not an AP, try to lean towards your boss NPCs being immune to mind-affecting. It'll shut down a lot of the insta-win stuff.
I switched it to being limited to the witch's HD in terms of what it can affect. Otherwise it gives the fatigued condition.
This ability ruined the end of a book of one of the APs for my group.. it includes lots of trolls. It was just sad to see such a nice part of a scenario transform into a non-issue with no challenge whatsoever.
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I switched it to being limited to the witch's HD in terms of what it can affect. Otherwise it gives the fatigued condition.
This ability ruined the end of a book of one of the APs for my group.. it includes lots of trolls. It was just sad to see such a nice part of a scenario transform into a non-issue with no challenge whatsoever.
I did the same thing after having multiple bosses go down in one round.
Also, remember that ANY damage wakes victim, so 1) an ally can kick them. or 2) calculate out the full coup de grace - I did have one boss who survived the damage and made his Fort save.
Also, it's once per day per target. If your players are in a local area, and their witch becomes known for slumbering folks, as clever bad guy might get his own witch, have her slumber him in the morning, wake him up, and now he's immune for the day! (maybe a bit meta-game...)
Also, it's once per day per target. If your players are in a local area, and their witch becomes known for slumbering folks, as clever bad guy might get his own witch, have her slumber him in the morning, wake him up, and now he's immune for the day! (maybe a bit meta-game...)
Hex Inoculation thread.
As others have said "If its ok for them, then it's ok for you". Maybe sit down with them and say you're concerned the fights go too much into the same direction, and if they're not careful other powerful NPCs learn of that tactic too.
So either they tone it down and don't use it every fight, or they'll find out just how annoying it can be to fight a group that employs that tactic against them.
But don't outright nerf it in the middle of the game, unless the group themselves agree its overpowered and too much (but then you might have to offer the witch to switch out Sleeping Hex for something else if you make it useless). Otherwise it just seems petty and like you don't want to grant them some victory or reward out-of-the-box thinking.
The "your enemies know what tactic you use" can only be brought in a few times before it just becomes annoying for everyone involved and in most cases it just can't be used if you value some consistency.
Enemies using this same tactic won't make the game fun for anyone either. Not sure if I've met a player who enjoys being coup de graced.
As for "the allies can use a standard action to wake up the victim"..sure. I don't know about you guys but more often then not I will not use that many initiative counts for my monsters as it just slows the game down and it's pretty easy to have someone close enough to be able to coup de grace if you've got some PC brutes.
Slumber and coup de grace isn't out of the box thinking or tactical thinking..come on.
Yep. It's one of the best abilities they have and was fully intentional.
Add undead and constructs. They are mindless. Give your demons iron will. And improved iron will.
But don't do that too often. They found something that they like and are having fun doing. It requires teamwork, and no one in the party is being marginalized. Anyone can coup de grace.
Also,
Elves and dragons are immune to magic sleep effects. A half-dragon template could be added to a demon here and there to make them immune.Finally, the sleep hex is limited in that is can only effect a target once per day. If there is more than one enemy, the enemies can wake each other up. After that, they are immune to the sleep hex for 24 hours.
I think I will try to solve the problem in-game. I don't want to take away the witch's strongest attack, but as was said before: some Will save buffs on the monsters and a template here and there will probably fix a lot.
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Finally, the sleep hex is limited in that is can only effect a target once per day.
Just wait until you witness the encounter-destroying horror that is Accursed Hex and Split Hex. Two monsters save vs sleep. If either or both save, you can try again next round.
The "your enemies know what tactic you use" can only be brought in a few times before it just becomes annoying for everyone involved and in most cases it just can't be used if you value some consistency.
Enemies using this same tactic won't make the game fun for anyone either. Not sure if I've met a player who enjoys being coup de graced.
I'm not saying a GM should copy every tactic the players use. But if the players abuse a certain tactic, then yes. If they use "sleep, coupe de grace" on the CR 1/2 goblin and the CR 15 ogre king without even thinking about other options, then it has reached a point where the GM should do something against it.
Elves are immune to sleep If I recall correctly, magical sleep, not sure if the immunity applies vs the hex tho...
Also yeah, like many people have said, vary the monsters?
If you keep using only stuff that the players are very well prepared to deal with and don't even break a sweat, then don't come crying here! if you vary monsters, it makes some abilities useless, while making other people's abilities shine, they are diverse after all right?
Sorry if i came up a little bit rude, but this is not the first time people have complained about it, you are the DM, the world is under your control, just mix and match really!
Elves are immune to sleep If I recall correctly, magical sleep, not sure if the immunity applies vs the hex tho...
Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like.
While outsiders do not have an explicit immunity to sleep effects, they really should, as they do not sleep! The only excuse the creature type seems to give for this is that they can sleep if they want to, but are not required to do so. All other unsleeping creature types do have an explicit immunity to sleep (plants, oozes, undead, constructs) so there's little reason for this exception.
The slumber hex, in general, is hardly a silver bullet. It has a crappy range, and if you fail with it there's no second chance. It's a great combat ability at lower levels, but to maximize the chance of success a witch has to have some lead-up time to lay on other hexes too.
It's a bit of a dick move to design your encounters to specifically negate player abilities, but the abundance of creature types that are immune to sleep, and the increasing prevalence of those types as levels go on, will easily handle the problem. Plus, y'know... the outside sleep immunity ;)
Elves are immune to sleep If I recall correctly, magical sleep, not sure if the immunity applies vs the hex tho...Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like.
Grick, what do you mean by your post here?
Elves are immune to magical sleep effects. So, they are immune to the Slumber hex, just like they are immune to the Sleep spell.
Are you disagreeing with that, or no? I can't tell.
Grick, what do you mean by your post here?
Nemitri was unsure if immunity to magical sleep applies to the Slumber hex.
I was (less than clearly) trying to state that the Slumber hex is a Supernatural ability, and Supernatural abilities are magical, thus the slumber hex should be counted as magical sleep, so Elves (and Dragons) should be immune to it.
I switched it to being limited to the witch's HD in terms of what it can affect. Otherwise it gives the fatigued condition.
I'd be tempted to do something like that, too.
Finally, the sleep hex is limited in that is can only effect a target once per day.Just wait until you witness the encounter-destroying horror that is Accursed Hex and Split Hex. Two monsters save vs sleep. If either or both save, you can try again next round.
Accursed Hex means you can try again, but you are still limited to once per round, so multiple opponents are going to be problematic.
Split hex is level 10. At that point, you have access to 5th level spells.
My real point was that sleep hex is really strong against solo monsters and strong against small(2-3 creature) groups.
Another thing to remember here is that coup-de-grace is a full round action. That means the person performing the coup can't move (more than a 5' step) or do anything else in the round. It also provokes AoOs. Just make sure the bad guys have some friends around and you should see this tactic become less effective a lot of the time.
I think I will try to solve the problem in-game. I don't want to take away the witch's strongest attack, but as was said before: some Will save buffs on the monsters and a template here and there will probably fix a lot.
And if nothing else you can simply talk to the player -- most are pretty understanding if you simply go, "Look as a GM I'm not quite comfortable with this power yet. Could you switch it out for me for the time being and let me get my head around it some more? I don't want to be a jerk and just start making something with sleep immunity in each fight, but I'm worried that I currently can't handle you using this hex all the time yet."
I mean everyone is human (in this world I mean) so a heads up that you are having some issues or are worried can help the player to realize maybe there is a problem without being a huge issue that divides the table.
Trying to use monsters which are immune to sleep a lot severely limits DM choice when designing encounters and therefore campaigns. If you're worried specifically about the Slumber Hex ruining "boss fights" you might want to consider giving the boss monsters Hero Points. If the monster can't make the save with a +8 maybe it doesn't deserve to survive and offer the PCs a challenge after all. I think there's also a spell which gives you a +4 on saves vs witch hexes, and a bad guy who knows a witch is coming for him might reasonably make use of that. The DM could also give every major villain a level or Sorcerer, Wizard, or Witch and a familiar which sits on his shoulder readying an action to wake him if he falls asleep. That seems pretty artificial though. It might be cute about once, but after that the players would probably get annoyed.
I still think it is coup de grace which is the real problem, and Slumber isn't the only thing which can set it up. If the idea of coup de grace not having a shot to outright kill higher level characters with full HP bothers you perhaps a better house rule would be to make the DC for coup de grace scale with level or BAB rather than derive from weapon damage. This would at least provide a saving throw DC which the victim might be able to make without rolling a natural 20. Obviously I like the house rule I'm using better, which is why I use it.
I know it seems a little cheesy somehow to make house rules which let sleeping heroes survive attempts to slice their throats, but honestly it frees the DM up to attack sleeping heroes and put PCs at risk with paralyzing monsters more often. If an NPC with high Stealth (or even a wandering monster with ok Stealth) sneaks into camp and auto kills a sleeping PC or two I'd imagine that the players would be pretty displeased. If the same NPC just hurts the PC badly and forces to party to rally that might be fun. I've also seen ghoul and mummy encounters go terribly wrong in the past.
I think that the idea of "if they can do it you can do it too" is only fun if you can "do it" without everybody complaining "That's totally unfair! I never had a chance!"
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In every encounter add a bunch of weak minions that the pcs can kill in one hit. When the tough monster gets slumbered one of the minions wakes him up. You can do this in every encounter. Now the tactic would have to be kill the minions and then slumber the big nasty.
Every so often just have a big baddie by himself.
With demons you can have each tough demon surrounded by drenches and maybe an invisible quasit or two. Any one of them can wake up the big guy.
As the PCs level up increase the minion levels. Keep the drenches and quasits and add in a CR/2 demon (or more than one).
If it's demons have the underlings actually attack the 'boss' -- after all they probably want him dead too and if he's asleep...
From a role playing perspective it underscores the infighting of demons, psychologically the players are likely to accept it easier than just the frustrating, "They wake him up" and mechanically it gets the job done too.
No need to modify rules, just not sending a Demon alone and/or keeping it outside the 30 ft. range of Slumber is enough to balance things.
But even before that, don't just put the Demons before the PCs as in an action videogame. Use them for what they are: cunning and deceiving entities devoid of honor and mercy. Use trickery. Use ambushes. Use illusions. That way, should a fight end in Slumber + coup de grace anyway, it will have been a challenge, not just a free XP-dealer device.
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If it's demons have the underlings actually attack the 'boss' -- after all they probably want him dead too and if he's asleep...
From a role playing perspective it underscores the infighting of demons, psychologically the players are likely to accept it easier than just the frustrating, "They wake him up" and mechanically it gets the job done too.
Fantastic idea.
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Also regarding demons they have a lot of at will abilities. The defensive ones should be constantly up (invisibility, mirror image etc). Offensive ones could be used to pass idle time. e.g. Using telekinesis to smash rocks together or smash the drenches they are with. There might be a lot of smashed drench bodies along with the remaining drenches.
Look carefully at the limited use abilities. If they are hours per day defensive or detection abilities then the demon might have it up anyway. Especially if they have enough uses to last the whole day.
The outsider entry states: "they do not need to eat or sleep (although they may do so if they wish)."
Although that doesn't specifically state that they are immune to sleep effects it implies that they only need to sleep if they want to. I think it would be well with in a DM's rights to say to the witch- "Sorry the demon doesn't feel like sleeping right now; you're SOL."
I think that will be the way I'll be ruling that.
The outsider entry states: "they do not need to eat or sleep (although they may do so if they wish)."
Although that doesn't specifically state that they are immune to sleep effects it implies that they only need to sleep if they want to. I think it would be well with in a DM's rights to say to the witch- "Sorry the demon doesn't feel like sleeping right now; you're SOL."
I think that will be the way I'll be ruling that.
I'd consider house-ruling immunities on the fly pretty cheap GM tactics.
Not needing to sleep <> immune to mind-affecting sleep effects.
Would that be cheaper than banning the slumber hex? I was considering that was well.
I'd consider house-ruling immunities on the fly pretty cheap GM tactics.The outsider entry states: "they do not need to eat or sleep (although they may do so if they wish)."
Although that doesn't specifically state that they are immune to sleep effects it implies that they only need to sleep if they want to. I think it would be well with in a DM's rights to say to the witch- "Sorry the demon doesn't feel like sleeping right now; you're SOL."
I think that will be the way I'll be ruling that.
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Simply have them disguise themselves as elves. The PCs will not be intimidated by elves and will know that elves are immune to magic sleep effects. It isn't as cheap as banning/nerfing the parties funnest ability or making them immune. It just makes them think its immune. If you do want to nerf the slumber hex, make it have uses per day or make the hes only work on creatures with the humanoid type or on (insert type here). If you want to play the god card, make encounters that make them incapable of using slumber hex (like arcane archer+antimagic field) It will make them think of new tactics.
Would that be cheaper than banning the slumber hex? I was considering that was well.
I'd consider house-ruling immunities on the fly pretty cheap GM tactics.The outsider entry states: "they do not need to eat or sleep (although they may do so if they wish)."
Although that doesn't specifically state that they are immune to sleep effects it implies that they only need to sleep if they want to. I think it would be well with in a DM's rights to say to the witch- "Sorry the demon doesn't feel like sleeping right now; you're SOL."
I think that will be the way I'll be ruling that.
Changing the rules without real mechanical justification in mid-play? I would find it 'cheap', yes - more annoying than being told before a game session that you were removing one of my abilities (because at least then if removing that ability annoyed me enough I could leave before the game started).
There are numerous ways to deal with the Slumber hex without banning it or arbitrarily granting immunities to creatures on the fly.
-Include (or alter) some enemies that have a justifiable immunity to the ability;
-Don't ever have solo encounters; minions can wake up their boss easily enough, and the hex only has a chance to work once per target per 24 hours (normally);
-Include foes that can keep the witch at range; 30 feet is uncomfortably close for a class that has no armor profieincy and a low hit die;
-Turn the hex around on them by throwing in a Witch NPC of your own
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First, I cringe, my spine tightens up, and I have to resist the urge to throttle people who say 'Just House Rule _____"
That said:
1) Elf bosses
2) Construct
3) Swarms
4) Undead
5) Wis based casters with Iron Will and similar.
6) Minions to wake BBEG.
Use the above as liberally as needed, but don't go overboard. Neutering a class/class feature mid game is a sure way to rip the fun from the players. Moreover, house ruling or taking the GM v. Players will always result with either (1) lazier and lazier GMing in the former, and (2) amazingly disgruntled gamers in the case of the latter.
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Another thing to remember here is that coup-de-grace is a full round action. That means the person performing the coup can't move (more than a 5' step) or do anything else in the round. It also provokes AoOs. Just make sure the bad guys have some friends around and you should see this tactic become less effective a lot of the time.
THIS!
It's often overlooked that it takes a full round. If they have to move up to the monster... sorry, no coup de grace.
If a character has min-maxed his int...then his unarmored, d6 HD witch is extremely squishy.
And within 30' from trying to cast the hex - never a good combination...
My last campaign we had a witch...best thing to use before slumber is evil eye and misfortune so they take a -2 and take the worst of 2 rolls, -4 at level 8 or 9 I think