I have a player in my group who is playing a 6th level wizard who has specialized in conjuring (specifically, summon monster for aiding the party). His abilities have become very effective in the group's battles, to the point that I've had a couple of "big bads" go down quite easily because of what he can summon for aid. I don't mind this, particularly, but I am hoping to make some changes to upcoming battles that could be a challenge for this group.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
In the group there is this 6th level wizard, as well as a ranger, a binder, an inquisitor and a bard (all 6th level).
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!
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I have a player in my group who is playing a 6th level wizard who has specialized in conjuring (specifically, summon monster for aiding the party). His abilities have become very effective in the group's battles, to the point that I've had a couple of "big bads" go down quite easily because of what he can summon for aid. I don't mind this, particularly, but I am hoping to make some changes to upcoming battles that could be a challenge for this group.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
In the group there is this 6th level wizard, as well as a ranger, a binder, an inquisitor and a bard (all 6th level).
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!
The great thing about summons is that you can adapt to a lot of different terrain. However, this can also be a way to draw off the summons.
It makes the summoner feel useful and effective without nixing the party if his summons are dealing with the sky/water/burrowing beasties while everyone else takes on the rest of your foes.
On thing to remember regarding summons, and that can sometimes be a strong protection against them, is the Protection from Evil/Good/etc. and the Magic Circle spells. These prevent summoned creatures of the corresponding alignment from making physical contact with a target protected by such a spell.
For instance, BBEG is fighting the party. He casts Magic Circle vs Good on himself. The conjurer summons a celestial boar to fight the BBEG. The boar can't touch the BBEG, in fact he can't even get within ten feat of him, so long as the Magic Circle overcomes the boars SR.
Note that a lot of summoned creatures can't get through protection from X spells at all; an enemy cleric or wizard might have those available. At this level a BBEG might also have the 3rd level magic circles available, protecting himself and everyone near him.
The bard in the party is probably helping the conjuror a lot -- group buffs are very handy the more creatures they buff. Consider finding a way to keep him busy doing something else. If nothing else, a silence spell will prevent the music from being heard.
Summoning takes a full round. Is anyone attacking the wizard while he summons?
Giving the BBEG a couple of bodyguards or guard minions, such as people with a lot of the shield feats, might be helpful.
Also note that summoned creatures generally follow their own desires and attack the closest enemy unless the summoner has some way to communicate with them.
Summoned creatures are often substantially lower in AC and hit bonuses than characters of that level. Put them up against something with high AC and DR and watch them whiff or inflict only minor scratches as the plTemail clad elemental, or whatever, wades through them.
Hit and run tactics. At level 6, the summons last less than a minute - a few guys attacking, retreating, waiting for the buffs/summons to disappear, then reattacking and so on. This can be combined with poisons, if you are of a malicious mindset. :)
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Protection from X does surprisingly little, especially if it is a correctly-neutral summoner (more options).
Could be worse, clerics and master summoners do that trick much better. Key would be to have time constraints, so each combat they have to decide whether it is worth it or not.
Doing the Nature Ally errata of changing riding dogs to dogs and removing crocs will get you over the low levels, but it is tough mid-to-high. Getting the jump on PCs and threatening the wiz so he can't stand there for a full round casting helps too.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
I would encourage you to not rule this out. The extra enemies you throw at them don't have to be as tough as the main encounter creatures. Just add some additional minions - bodyguards for the goblin chief, lesser demons for the more powerful demons, lemures for the bone devil, etc. These aren't just good for distracting summoned monsters, they're also good for weaker character builds to hack up, feeling heroic, while more powerful builds focus on the BBEGs.
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A couple things to bear in mind:
Summon Monster/Animal X all have a casting time of 1 round. This means that the Conjurer or Druid must spend both his move and standard action on the spell (so can only do a 5ft step and a swift action) AND that he continues to cast the spell all throughout the entire initiative cycle, until the start of his next turn (at which point the spell resolves and both the caster and creature may take a full round action normally).
This means that he has to make concentration checks (and not "casting defensively", either; just the normal kind) every time he takes damage throughout the entire round, which puts a big target on his head; if you aren't taking advantage of it, you should start.
There's also the range of the spell (close: 25 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels). If he's 6th level, he's only got an initial range of 40 feet. The creature can of course move beyond that once summoned, but it initially has to appear within 40 feet of the caster. Put the big bad at the other end of a long guarded throne room and the monster can't get to him, put the ambushing baddies on the top of a 60 foot cliff and give them bows, and he can't drop anything at all on their heads.
Finally, I have a question: what monsters are giving you trouble? If he's sixth level, the best he can do is throw a lantern archon around, or 1d3 small elementals, or 1d4+1 riding dogs, or something similar; none of those should be even remotely challenging to a monster capable of going toe-to-toe with a 6th level fighter.
I have a player in my group who is playing a 6th level wizard who has specialized in conjuring (specifically, summon monster for aiding the party). His abilities have become very effective in the group's battles, to the point that I've had a couple of "big bads" go down quite easily because of what he can summon for aid. I don't mind this, particularly, but I am hoping to make some changes to upcoming battles that could be a challenge for this group.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
In the group there is this 6th level wizard, as well as a ranger, a binder, an inquisitor and a bard (all 6th level).
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!
You can always whip this one out. Obviously, this spell is best when he summons one big guy.
Utilize terrain and weather effects. Force concentration checks due to weather or hide archers who take pot shots while he's summoning. Use terrain or encounter types that are hostile to his typical summons (flying creatures when he typically summons ground-based guys, etc).
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Would not count all of that, d4+1 riding dogs summoned into flank hit at +7 for d6+3 and can always get that high trip attempt; and we've spammed Lantern Archons at 9th level to defeat CR 13 dragons (lantern archons are insanely versatile; and "ignore all DR/aim for touch fly perfect" is a really good ability). And any summon can wall up areas indungeon scenarios.
The biggest key is to just make sure they can't cast th every combat (at least the high level ones).
A few weaknesses of the summon monster oriented caster:
Most of the time casting summon monster spells is a 1 round cast time. That means the caster is standing there casting away (with a strong voice) and waving his hands. . . he might as well be saying, "HIT ME!" Don't disappoint. . . hit him. Prioritize ranged attacks on casting spellcasters. Have some lower level "mooks" with the purpose of readying ranged attacks against spellcasters.
I'd also include in a 5th level wizard to a fight spamming dispel magic on summoned monsters. He can do this from around 150 ft. away, and I'd frequently place the caster at least 100 ft. away when doing this.
A silence works really well to counter summon monster. Long range vs. medium, and only a standard action vs. a full-round.
Silence is a 1 round cast time.
Egorian academy infernal binders can take over summoned monster with a caster level check.
Also what are his summons will saves? If they are low murderous command is a spell in ultimate magic that can make them attack allies.
Well no one has mentioned this so, why not fight fire with fire? send enemy summoners to take care of them ,heck you could even have a summon monster duel just for kicks!
I have a player in my group who is playing a 6th level wizard who has specialized in conjuring (specifically, summon monster for aiding the party). His abilities have become very effective in the group's battles, to the point that I've had a couple of "big bads" go down quite easily because of what he can summon for aid. I don't mind this, particularly, but I am hoping to make some changes to upcoming battles that could be a challenge for this group.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
In the group there is this 6th level wizard, as well as a ranger, a binder, an inquisitor and a bard (all 6th level).
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!
Hmm, well, a few things. Has the player of the conjurer invested in being able to communicate with his summons? Like learning the elemental languages, or having a "tongues" spell on hand? In PF, celestial or fiendish creatures don't have the ability to understand languages (their int doesn't go up to 3), so your character needs ranks in handle animal or a spell that lets him talk with animals to make the most effective use out of them tactically. Also, what are your conjurer's oppositional schools?
As for otherwise challenging them, considering you have an inquisitor, ranger, and a bard, how many skill challenges do you throw at them? Stuff like wilderness and social adventures that may not involve direct face to face combat but more subtle tracking ans social interaction situations and the like? Don't forget to play to the other characters strengths besides just catching the wizard off guard.
As far as conjurers go, in my recent experience (we're up to 12th or so with a conjurer pc), when a conjurer is conjuring with that full-round action, this is one of the few times when direct damage spells really shine in disrupting the spells. AoE spells like fireball can work on a flying, invisible caster who has to speak to cast spells. Or a well-placed readied action from a dedicated archer or two.
As far as your group having trouble soaking damage, a lot of times that is what the conjured creatures are there for. So you can send your heavy hitters after the summoned creatures and tie up your wizard that way if you like, too. If you have trouble justifying this in character, you can send the occassional mob of unintelligent critters after them who can beat up on the summoned creatures without understand their source.
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Your party make up is so... similar to my.... hummm... lol
As a PLAYER who plays a cleric that summon solely for the purpose of acting as meat shields for the party, I find summoning a need/almost a must in my party.
Just like your party, my party have a hard time taking any damage. Our highest HP is our ranger with 50~60+ at level 6. Everyone else, the Alchemist, Wizard and Bard all have 30+ in hp. One good crit and they are in danger of dying.
As the party healer, I am extremely frustrated as I end up being more of a "healbot" in battle, running around like a mad man trying to keep everyone on their feet... its horrible for me.
Once I start picking up summoning spells I find the party becoming TOO GOOD in combat. This is partly due to the fact that the party has high DPS, but low HP. So we started winning some boss fights easily.
My DM and I both realized this, so he limits the number of summons I can have per day. (Its currently like 1 mutl-creature summon and 1 solo-creature summon a day.)
Its makes the game more fair and not force the DM to change TOO MUCH to the Adventure Path.
So speak to your player. COMMUNICATE. Let him know your worries and get him to understand that over summoning is bad for the story/adventure. After all if you have to make huge changes JUST to counter HIM, its not fair to the rest of your party.
My DM and I both realized this, so he limits the number of summons I can have per day. (Its currently like 1 mutl-creature summon and 1 solo-creature summon a day.)
Its makes the game more fair and not force the DM to change TOO MUCH to the Adventure Path.
Somehow the fact that you're using up spell slots doesn't make up for it?
Does he not allow other non-reactive defensive options, like Obscuring Mist, Shield, Mirror Image, etc?
An occasional Dispel magic can also work wonders, especially if they are relying too much on the summoned help.
An occasional Dispel magic can also work wonders, especially if they are relying too much on the summoned help.
+1. A Dispel Magic on a summoned Bebelith saved our party's bacon in the last session (works both ways)!
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My DM and I both realized this, so he limits the number of summons I can have per day. (Its currently like 1 mutl-creature summon and 1 solo-creature summon a day.)
Its makes the game more fair and not force the DM to change TOO MUCH to the Adventure Path.
Somehow the fact that you're using up spell slots doesn't make up for it?
Does he not allow other non-reactive defensive options, like Obscuring Mist, Shield, Mirror Image, etc?
All other spells are alright to use.
The Adventure Path is Kingmaker, so for almost every battle the party turns up fresh (all spells/power/sp-like..etc).Due to the party make-up we have high DPR. Our lv 6 wizard throws about spells as lv 8, cos of the boost from our Bard(Magician), our Alchemist have superb AOE damage and as stated above she usually have the full 8+ uses a day, due to each fight taking place during a new day.
He restricts my summons, because if he doesn't the fight is usually over way too fast. Even if my summons hold off the enemies for just 1-2 rounds, in those 2 rounds, its nor uncommon for my party members to burn/bomb/cut away more then halve of the enemies.
Now if I just spam summons away, in a straight-up fight, the enemies would almost never have a chance!
The restriction is for game balance purposes, aka my DM just want a freer hand when it comes to giving the party challenges instead of just focus on being anti-summoning in combat.
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My DM and I both realized this, so he limits the number of summons I can have per day. (Its currently like 1 mutl-creature summon and 1 solo-creature summon a day.)
Its makes the game more fair and not force the DM to change TOO MUCH to the Adventure Path.
Somehow the fact that you're using up spell slots doesn't make up for it?
Does he not allow other non-reactive defensive options, like Obscuring Mist, Shield, Mirror Image, etc?
All other spells are alright to use.
The Adventure Path is Kingmaker, so for almost every battle the party turns up fresh (all spells/power/sp-like..etc).Due to the party make-up we have high DPR. Our lv 6 wizard throws about spells as lv 8, cos of the boost from our Bard(Magician), our Alchemist have superb AOE damage and as stated above she usually have the full 8+ uses a day, due to each fight taking place during a new day.
He restricts my summons, because if he doesn't the fight is usually over way too fast. Even if my summons hold off the enemies for just 1-2 rounds, in those 2 rounds, its nor uncommon for my party members to burn/bomb/cut away more then halve of the enemies.
Now if I just spam summons away, in a straight-up fight, the enemies would almost never have a chance!
The restriction is for game balance purposes, aka my DM just want a freer hand when it comes to giving the party challenges instead of just focus on being anti-summoning in combat.
Stunned. He limits your abilities, but lets the others buff and blast away. Been playing kngmaker up to level 10 now, and dont know bout you but we have had lots of days of near dieing. Having to retreat to rest.
Guess he really wouldnt like me than. just played a session in shackled city where had 12 small earth elementals and 2 black bears on the map at same time. Goliath bear shaman.
I played a summoner in Kingmaker. Had a lot of fun.
I then summoned 4 earth elementals behind them, and went bowling with bullrushes.
Have a lacky in a fight be a focussed dispeller. Improved Counterspell, high spellcraft, etc, and every time he tries to make a summon have the lacky have readied a counter. If he counters two or three, not only does it weaken the parties DPR, but they will probably stop attacking the physical threats to put down the counterspeller
thoughts?
Have a lacky in a fight be a focussed dispeller. Improved Counterspell, high spellcraft, etc, and every time he tries to make a summon have the lacky have readied a counter. If he counters two or three, not only does it weaken the parties DPR, but they will probably stop attacking the physical threats to put down the counterspeller
thoughts?
Just make it a gunslinger.
The bullet is going to hit the mage. Just ready an action to shoot.
Or use an archer.
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I have a player in my group who is playing a 6th level wizard who has specialized in conjuring (specifically, summon monster for aiding the party). His abilities have become very effective in the group's battles, to the point that I've had a couple of "big bads" go down quite easily because of what he can summon for aid. I don't mind this, particularly, but I am hoping to make some changes to upcoming battles that could be a challenge for this group.
I don't want to just throw more enemies at them because, for all of their capabilities, they are not capable of soaking a lot of damage. What I'm looking for is something that will challenge their abilities (not negate them entirely), not just throw more damage at them.
In the group there is this 6th level wizard, as well as a ranger, a binder, an inquisitor and a bard (all 6th level).
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!
Summoning is a full round action.
Interrupt him.
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My DM and I both realized this, so he limits the number of summons I can have per day. (Its currently like 1 mutl-creature summon and 1 solo-creature summon a day.)
Its makes the game more fair and not force the DM to change TOO MUCH to the Adventure Path.
Somehow the fact that you're using up spell slots doesn't make up for it?
Does he not allow other non-reactive defensive options, like Obscuring Mist, Shield, Mirror Image, etc?
All other spells are alright to use.
The Adventure Path is Kingmaker, so for almost every battle the party turns up fresh (all spells/power/sp-like..etc).Due to the party make-up we have high DPR. Our lv 6 wizard throws about spells as lv 8, cos of the boost from our Bard(Magician), our Alchemist have superb AOE damage and as stated above she usually have the full 8+ uses a day, due to each fight taking place during a new day.
He restricts my summons, because if he doesn't the fight is usually over way too fast. Even if my summons hold off the enemies for just 1-2 rounds, in those 2 rounds, its nor uncommon for my party members to burn/bomb/cut away more then halve of the enemies.
Now if I just spam summons away, in a straight-up fight, the enemies would almost never have a chance!
The restriction is for game balance purposes, aka my DM just want a freer hand when it comes to giving the party challenges instead of just focus on being anti-summoning in combat.
Stunned. He limits your abilities, but lets the others buff and blast away. Been playing kngmaker up to level 10 now, and dont know bout you but we have had lots of days of near dieing. Having to retreat to rest.
Guess he really wouldnt like me than. just played a session in shackled city where had 12 small earth elementals and 2 black bears on the map at same time. Goliath bear shaman.
See this is the problem. If I don't summon, aka if there are no "meat shields", the party is quite weak. Only the ranger and I have reasonable amounts of HP. The moment the monsters get pass the Ranger and start tearing into the wizard/bard/alchemist, our damage output goes down the drain. (And I start running around and become a healbot.. sigh...)
BUT! If I start summoning, aka there is a "wall" of "meat shields", the fight becomes unbalanced against the monsters. They need to spend at least 1 turn killing my summons, which gives the Wizard and Bard time to throw out damage and de-buff spells. Our Alchemist have AC to tank a bit but at 10 Con, one good solid hit will bring her to half-life or worst, and again with "meat shields" to cover her, she can throw her bombs = more damage.
Its like balancing a see-saw.
Overall if my party make-up was different, this won't be so problematic. But with 5 players + 1 full-Lv pet (ranger's with boon companion feat) we are like a party of 6 for Kingmaker, which is made for 4 players. Our DM ramps the foes up with numbers, but its getting a bit wonky, hence the request that I limit my summons.
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The Adventure Path is Kingmaker, so for almost every battle the party turns up fresh (all spells/power/sp-like..etc).Due to the party make-up we have high DPR. Our lv 6 wizard throws about spells as lv 8, cos of the boost from our Bard(Magician), our Alchemist have superb AOE damage and as stated above she usually have the full 8+ uses a day, due to each fight taking place during a new day.
He restricts my summons, because if he doesn't the fight is usually over way too fast. Even if my summons hold off the enemies for just 1-2 rounds, in those 2 rounds, its nor uncommon for my party members to burn/bomb/cut away more then halve of the enemies.
Now if I just spam summons away, in a straight-up fight, the enemies would almost never have a chance!
The restriction is for game balance purposes, aka my DM just want a freer hand when it comes to giving the party challenges instead of just focus on being anti-summoning in combat.
Man, you are doing your role well preventing damage to the party (in short, controlling) and because the dps is also doing a good job he is nerfing YOUR abilities because he want you to be a healbot and nothing else. IMO I'd be pissed. Trust me, if the wizard was doing control instead of blasting and you were another nasty dps class your DM would had been out for a much bigger headache. Compare summon monster 3 to say, sleetstorm. If fights are to short and easy you just add a few more critters or give them more hp, you don't start nerfing random abilities that you can't handle.
Please explain btw, what summons are you using that he find so op?
I am mass summoning Riding Dogs. Note that I am playing a Cleric of Cayden Cailean and we get "Summon Monster II to summon a cayhound (celestial riding dog; CG)". Its in Gods and Magic. See this site: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/spellsUnique.htm
This usually means a "wall" of 2+ Riding Dogs standing between us and the monsters. Since I pop them right next to the monsters, they have to wack them aside first. Unless its some human or high intel creature, they usually don't go pass them to take out the party.
My party Wizard, Bard and Alchemist then hit the monsters with spells and bombs with the 1 turn I gave them.
While this "ideal" defense does not always happen, I can still usually tie up the monsters with summons some rounds into a battle.
I'm starting to understand why people feel this is unfair to me and I did let my DM know that I DON'T WANT to be a healbot, but as I stated before, the fact that we face 1 battle or so a day means I can usually still get by.
My DM just don't want me sending wave after wave of monsters into a fight. Once's a fight seems to be the ideal.
To be fair, I eventually changed out my Summoner for a Cavalier. Partly because I was marginalizing the contributions of the other members.
Partly because the GM wasn't a huge fan of the ability to summon 9d3+9 Lantern Archons without using any spells, and having them destroy any resistance.
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To be fair, I eventually changed out my Summoner for a Cavalier. Partly because I was marginalizing the contributions of the other members.
Partly because the GM wasn't a huge fan of the ability to summon 9d3+9 Lantern Archons without using any spells, and having them destroy any resistance.
Your situation is what I think my DM is trying to avoid. A mass summoning Cleric/Summoner/Wizard/Etc can be kinda unfair in terms of actions/time spend in combat over the other players.
Probably, but I just never did it because he didn't want me to :)
Something I did when it was time for 'mass summoning' was simply summon all of the same thing and kept them fairly grouped together.
They always targeted the same thing and I simply rolled for all the summons at once (color coded dice helped). That way it was more like a 'fireball' with hp and multiple bodies.
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This reminds me of the time when my cleric character and the buddy druid character teamed up and first summoned a celestial t-rex via summon monster, then cast animal growth on it and finally strong jaw (or it was the other way around, can't recall). Then our party transmuter gave it the ability to fly.
Seeing a silvery terror-lizard sailing through the skies and munching on an adult blue dragon(smiting evil as well) had our GM make us swore to never again attempt the thing. Not because it was particularly dangerous, though it killed the dragon with three bites, but because the image was utterly ridiculous in a such an apocalyptic scenario as Spires of Xin-Shalast.
Just throwing that out there. I'm sure a dedicated conjurer would eh...conjure up something far worse. Celestial Rocs? Colossal fiendish purple worm against a good outsider? A pack of Augmented lemures in an orphanage? Yikes.
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This reminds me of the time when my cleric character and the buddy druid character teamed up and first summoned a celestial t-rex via summon monster, then cast animal growth on it and finally strong jaw (or it was the other way around, can't recall). Then our party transmuter gave it the ability to fly.
Seeing a silvery terror-lizard sailing through the skies and munching on an adult blue dragon(smiting evil as well) had our GM make us swore to never again attempt the thing. Not because it was particularly dangerous, though it killed the dragon with three bites, but because the image was utterly ridiculous in a such an apocalyptic scenario as Spires of Xin-Shalast.
Just throwing that out there. I'm sure a dedicated conjurer would eh...conjure up something far worse. Celestial Rocs? Colossal fiendish purple worm against a good outsider? A pack of Augmented lemures in an orphanage? Yikes.
LOL
You got me laughing.
In any case, I fear your ideals of lemurs in an orphanage is no longer quite possible, since most summons are by rounds and they will go "poof" moments into their fun.
That said... a summoner's summons are by mins.... hummm.... :)
This reminds me of the time when my cleric character and the buddy druid character teamed up and first summoned a celestial t-rex via summon monster, then cast animal growth on it and finally strong jaw (or it was the other way around, can't recall). Then our party transmuter gave it the ability to fly.
Seeing a silvery terror-lizard sailing through the skies and munching on an adult blue dragon(smiting evil as well) had our GM make us swore to never again attempt the thing. Not because it was particularly dangerous, though it killed the dragon with three bites, but because the image was utterly ridiculous in a such an apocalyptic scenario as Spires of Xin-Shalast.
Just throwing that out there. I'm sure a dedicated conjurer would eh...conjure up something far worse. Celestial Rocs? Colossal fiendish purple worm against a good outsider? A pack of Augmented lemures in an orphanage? Yikes.
Really cool story ;)
But nothing compared to a celestial whooly mammoth, used on the astral plane on an astral ship as a torpedo against a giant flying brain with tentacles :D