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Fighter's can't have nice things, it seems. This trope is alive and well, it seems. God forbid that fantastic warriors do things that are actually fantastic.
Stop that. No seriously stop twisting words. I never once said that "fighters shouldn't do x." I said it was stupid. Period. It flies in the face of any narrative sense. It has nothing to do with realism. It has everything to do with applying game rules to what should be an interesting and epic scenario and coming out with something absolutely cartoonish.
We read our epics and our stories and the city walls are always made out to be a big deal. The heroes in the illiad had to resort to trickery after decades of sieging before they could breach Troy. Jericho fell purely due to a miracle of god. It took an army of tens of thousands of urukai to exploit the weakness in helms deep and breach its walls. The walls are meant to be meaningful. They need overwhelming force, trickery, or powerful magic to bypass, not a dude with an iron bar that apparently does not shatter when he sits there thwacking on it. If he was doing this to say, the city gates? I likely wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact that's awesome and I cannot believe I'm repeating that again. It's along the lines of "backstabbing with a ballista" or "using mr animal companion for food, what I'm respecting nature!" just because you can doesn't mean you shouldn't be slapped for doing it. Anyway rant off.
Now let's take a look at the dude you made. That's great. But it's one guy. One. He's a level 1 warrior. Let's make him six. Give the back line Lucerne hammers. Six guys on one square at a time. We can give them the same cover as the 6th level fighter would. Why not? And they can bash down a wall pretty damn fast. Which lies the problem. It's fast. Even modern drilling tools take a few minutes to drill through that much granite.
And admittedly the strategy isn't practical to begin with, so let's at least concede that. If you're using your 6th level fighter to burst through walls like the koolaid man you might think better of putting him against the wall with the boiling oil, rock hurling giants, and lines of archers ready to gun him down on sight. And he's probably your best guy. Better off sticking to those trebuchets.
I am a christian
*bro-fists for a fellow brother!* (also, I give out free hugs if you're into that sort of thing)
[spoiler=You know what, I realized I went off somewhere down there, and it's way too nerdy, so I'll stick with just noting the "C" due to respect for the "Christ" part]Also, minor note 'cause it always bugs me when people do it, it's capital "C", as the title comes from the believers from Laodicea who were the first to be called "Christians" which means "little Christs", aka "the followers of Christ"; the reason for a capital "C", in this case comes not from a respect of those who bear the title, but rather the ones whom they are named after. Prior too that, they were known by many different names, but predominantly "followers of the Way" and "disciples of Yeshua". Yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh re-reading this totally goes into spoilers for off-topic.[/spoiler]You know, I like this thread. A lot.
It's fun watching people I think of as pretty intelligent disagree with each other when I really don't think they disagree with each other for the majority of the posts they're explicitly disagreeing with each other on.
Also, Tark, he didn't say "mountains with spoons", as said fighters would be suffering serious penalties for having "weapons" that small (wrong size category and/or miniscule damage) that they weren't proficient with (barring some bizarre feat choices) so your hyperbole was responded to with a reasonable reaction. The "mountains with spoons" doesn't come until later levels.
Also that 17th level wizard could, but it'd be a sucky, pale, slow-to-mature imitation (despite the presence of magic). Ew.
Anyway, more on topic:
The potential (possibly or possibly not more than the repetitious actual application) of large-scale blast/siege-potential of magic would rapidly escalate/alter the apparent "tech scale" of magically-saturated worlds to resemble more modern warfare in terms of high-end espionage and preparation before the doomhammer falls with small-end, localized skirmishes (possibly fielding large armies, but for rapid response reasons more than extended campaign ones) being far more common than the terrible Mutually Assured Destruction scenarios most groups would be constantly preparing for. That said, the majority of the actual tech-scale (aka most armor and weapon styles) would not, per se, increase, except in specific architectural styles which would specifically be built to counter imposition methods and large-scale blast weapons. But by that point we're into pre-modern warfare anyway.
Is this what we can all agree on? Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion to take from all that's been said so far?
One other thought I had, which may or may not be more readily able to be countered is the accumulation of knowledge over time. It's strange that people have mentioned state-sponsored wizards, but none have mentioned the idea of those wizards doing independent research and fully sharing their spells. In a caster-embracing society, those spellbooks would provide a basis for all future potential military casters, ergo you wouldn't need much for them: just grant them access to the spell-books for a while and suddenly you have a much more versatile caster. Getting ever-more copies of spellbooks (and warding them) would become a high priority in such situations.
Also, divine casters need to be sure to have the backing of their god(s) in a military campaign, or else.
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Also, Tark, he didn't say "mountains with spoons", as said fighters would be suffering serious penalties for having "weapons" that small (wrong size category and/or miniscule damage) that they weren't proficient with (barring some bizarre feat choices) so your hyperbole was responded to with a reasonable reaction. The "mountains with spoons" doesn't come until later levels.
It's an advancement on a line of thought. The level of the fighter is irrelevant it's the fact that it can be done and not one thought was put into things like.
Wouldn't the fighter get tired after swinging his sword as hard as possible against a solid wall of stone for five minutes?
Wouldn't his sword start taking damage after a while?
Like I said it sets a precedent I wouldn't like. Because if you let the fighter simply slam through the city's fortified walls, what's to stop him from trying to perform other feats of ridiculousness out of a blind following of RAW?
Anyway I'm going to stop ranting now. I know most GM's tend to agree with me on this.
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Look at it from another perspective too though TarkXT. The rules say it can happen, and since castle walls do exist and most likley aren't being hacked down by dudes with swords, what do you think they've done to stop this. Afterall, there would be a fairly large number of godlike people around if level 6 is that powerrating (at least in comparison to our earth).
Some suggestions on wall defense against such stuff
- Walls of force imbedded within castle/town walls
- Blocks of stonework with magical enhancements beyond what the book spells out
- Occasional gaps filled with dangerous gases so when Fighter X carves his way in, he chokes in his own melted lungs as the gas envelopes him.
- Electrified sections within a wall (hit that with your metal sword you great lumox!)
- A moat
- A moat filled with monsters that have big nashy teeth
- Casters that are casting repairing spells as he is beating the stone.
- Better yet, a wall that self repairs through channeled magic
- Casters that shape stone around him and crush him or trap him in close fitting castes as he tries his trick
- A group of archers that responds to his attack and shoots him full of arrows as he stands there for 4 minutes carving into their wall.
- Some of the stones in deeper layers of the wall with defensive wards on them that go off as they're exposed (explosive runes, or wards that cast hold person etc).
I started to run a homebrew campaign on these boards a few years back where the major cities had large "infernal machines" for want of a better word. These devices effectively acted like big spindles that accumulated magic threads and stored them for use in powering the cities defences. Sanctioned magic users could tap into this power source withing cities, enhancing their power, but ultimately it was this great magitech that would repair walls and put up great force walls at strategic locations in the event of attack. If the machine was somehow destroyed, the cities would be next to powerless against a strongly magical enemy.
Unfortunately, the game never evolved far enough for the players to find this out since real life got in my way. It was all there though. ( one of them had destroyed the machine in question while under the posession of an Illithid psion, which is what triggered the campaign off. The psychc backlash had almost destroyed his mind though, and forced the posession out, all he had was a memory glimpse of the thing as he approached it. Was a fun campaign <sigh>)
Anyone got other ideas?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Casters that are casting repairing spells as he is beating the stone.
I am so stealing this for shrines along 'my' worldwound. A bastion of Saranae with fighters shooting demons and corrupted creatures while the cleric channels energy to rebuild the fortifications.
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Well here are some of the assumptions in the Inner Sea World guide:
Magic: The common citizens of the Inner Sea region, be they farmers or traders or city guards, know about magic. It’s likely that they’ve seen magic spells in action, and have even been the beneficiary of healing magic or other minor effects at some point in their lives. Yet magic is not so universal a part of life for most of the Inner Sea’s citizens that they’ve come to rely on it. It’s seen most often as an extravagance or a reward used by the wealthy, or in a worst-case scenario as yet another tool a despot or monster might use to oppress honest folk. Magic is thus a source of wonder and awe and of fear, but since it’s not a fundamental part of most folks’ everyday lives, it’s also
often misunderstood.
Power Levels: Throughout this book, particularly in Chapter 2, key NPCs are mentioned by name. Experience levels and classes are not presented for these NPCs, in order to maintain a level of versatility and freedom allowing adventure writers, hobbyists and professionals alike, to adjust these NPCs as they wish. Nonetheless, there exist guidelines for how powerful most rulers and heroes and city guards are in the Inner Sea region. The vast majority of humanity are “standard,” ranging in level from 1st to 5th—most with NPC classes like commoner, expert, or warrior (it’s uncommon for a character with only NPC class levels to be above 5th level). A significant number of a nation’s movers and shakers, along with other leaders, heroes, and notables, are “exceptional,” ranging in level from 6th to 10th. “Powerful” characters, ranging in level from 11th to 15th, are quite rare—typically only a handful of such powerful characters should exist in most nations, and they should be leaders or specially trained troops most often designed to serve as allies or enemies for use in an adventure. Finally, “legendary” characters of 16th or higher level should be exceptionally rare, and when they appear should only do so as part of a specific campaign—all legendary characters should be supported with significant histories and flavor.
Inner Sea world guide 253
I would hazard a guess that while fliers/ and powerful magic users exist, they are not so common that you have to abandon castles etc.
I guess the viability of castles phalanxes and the mounted charge, would depend on how powerful and wide spread and readily available magic and spells are . perhaps this has been already said.
oh one last thought- the books "the black company" i think show a good example, where for the most part you use military, and during exceptional circumstances powerful mages get involved.
Look at it from another perspective too though TarkXT. The rules say it can happen, and since castle walls do exist and most likley aren't being hacked down by dudes with swords, what do you think they've done to stop this. Afterall, there would be a fairly large number of godlike people around if level 6 is that powerrating (at least in comparison to our earth).
Some suggestions on wall defense against such stuff
- Walls of force imbedded within castle/town walls
- Blocks of stonework with magical enhancements beyond what the book spells out
- Occasional gaps filled with dangerous gases so when Fighter X carves his way in, he chokes in his own melted lungs as the gas envelopes him.
- Electrified sections within a wall (hit that with your metal sword you great lumox!)
- A moat
- A moat filled with monsters that have big nashy teeth
- Casters that are casting repairing spells as he is beating the stone.
- Better yet, a wall that self repairs through channeled magic
- Casters that shape stone around him and crush him or trap him in close fitting castes as he tries his trick
- A group of archers that responds to his attack and shoots him full of arrows as he stands there for 4 minutes carving into their wall.
- Some of the stones in deeper layers of the wall with defensive wards on them that go off as they're exposed (explosive runes, or wards that cast hold person etc).
Some good ideas. Just keep in mind you need defenses against magic as well, and earthglide. A simple metal slab about 3 to 4 inches thick will stop most earthgliders. Certain local clerics may employ the use of "hired" earth elementals to ensure the soundness of the city walls and to patrol underground for sappers and saboteurs.
Another idea simply involves clever engineering. Have a wall that collapses down and out rather then down and in. That will crush anyone standing too close to the wall and give the invaders a nasty barrier to try and cross.
I'm guessing in your games it's impossible to damage dragons, iron golems, and so forth with things like swords, right? I mean, it's the same principle. A normal human cannot hope to even scratch an iron golem in a meaningful way (you literally cannot deal more than 15 damage with a longsword at 1st level, without a critical hit).
It is impossible to damage them without an adamantine sword. That is different. Some legendary fighters can damage them a little bit with a steel sword. Still not as ridiculous as digging through a wall with a sword in 10 minutes. Let me change that to castle wall. I can see a fighter bursting a wood wall. I generally do not allow weapons to damage walls. Doors yes. Walls no. SImply because of their construction. No rule for it in the core. I just do not think the intention of the rules was for seige.
Common sense goes out the window very early in D&D. There's a reason E6 exists, and that's because 6th level is epic enough for some people. In fact, it's actually as epic or more epic than most wild fantasies from reality. Heck, we have religions based around the idea that people can be resurrected or healed, and we consider such things to be of divine nature, while any cleric of 7th level can heal the sick, create food from nothing, and raise the dead. Literally every 7th level cleric can mimic the very divine abilities of Jesus, and somehow a 6th level warrior tearing a hole in the wall is upsetting your notion of common sense?
In the context of versimilitude yes. Not only is the sword a terrible tool for the job, it could not happen in 10 minutes. If you want it too that is fine. If it happened in a story though people would point and laugh.
The ressurection issue is completely different. The D&D world has magic as a basic assumption, that has been inspired by real world myth and legends. Since D&D is a magical world, clerics SHOULD be able to mimic the abilities of prophets.
Fighter's can't have nice things, it seems. This trope is alive and well, it seems. God forbid that fantastic warriors do things that are actually fantastic.
Breaking through a wall with a sword is not fantastic. It is just silly. Fighters have plenty of nice things. If they were able to beseige a castle with a sword, they have a REALLY nice thing. I like to apply common sense to rules. I don't think fighters need to be approached with a lack of common sense to make them fantastic. They already are.
Medieval TOTAL WAR was a fantastic game. There was one exploit to it though. The best seige weapon was a horde of peasants. Send your peasants at the gate, and the gate is down. No need for seige weapons. Ridiculous. Only part of the game I did not like. You'll lose like 1100 peasants but they are much cheaper than one catapult.
The developers should have made gates unassailable by standard weapons. That is what I do with fortification walls at least 2 feet thick.
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I am so stealing this for shrines along 'my' worldwound. A bastion of Saranae with fighters shooting demons and corrupted creatures while the cleric channels energy to rebuild the fortifications.Casters that are casting repairing spells as he is beating the stone.
Torag and / or Abadar would be even better suited to having special techniques to repair stone walls and the like with their channeled positive energy. Some might have a special feat, representing training that allows them to repair both flesh and stone with their channelings, in other cases, the stone of the shrine itself could be magically empowered, so that it responds to positive energy (although this would come with a corresponding weakness, that it can also be worn away by negative energy...).
As a feat, it might require the Earth domain as a prerequisite, but as an enchantment upon the walls of a shrine, clerics of Sarenrae or Shelyn or whomever could channel to 'heal' the walls.
In lieu of a feat, it could even be a replacement power that is part of a 'stoneworks' or 'seigeworks' Subdomain of Earth, Protection or War. (Or Destruction, in the case of using negative energy channeling to blast away stone...)
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As for the tunneling with an adamantine dagger thing, my group *long ago* house-ruled that adamantine weapons halve the hardness of something they hit. Not -20. Just half. Cutting the hardness of stone from 8 to 4 is more than adequate. The price also dropped a bit, since it was no longer free-sunder-palooza.
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It's an advancement on a line of thought. The level of the fighter is irrelevant it's the fact that it can be done and not one thought was put into things like.Wouldn't the fighter get tired after swinging his sword as hard as possible against a solid wall of stone for five minutes?
Wouldn't his sword start taking damage after a while?
Like I said it sets a precedent I wouldn't like. Because if you let the fighter simply slam through the city's fortified walls, what's to stop him from trying to perform other feats of ridiculousness out of a blind following of RAW?
Anyway I'm going to stop ranting now. I know most GM's tend to agree with me on this.
The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?
You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play Rune Quest or Role Master any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
To much focus on fireball. A decent spell to be sure, but if you absolutuly positivily want to decimate opposing armies, the go to spell should be cloudkill, which (properly placed) could decimate potentially legions of mooks. One scroll of cloudkill could easily turn the tide of any battle.
Downside? Getting that optimal placement is tricky. It's a medium range spell and the cloud itself is relativily slow in speed (10ft round). But if you could somehow manuver its effect to go through the width of the enemies collumns, game over man!
Yeah... you might get the old and crippled with cloudkill that's going to be about it after the initial squad you drop it on. 10 feet around is too slow for anywhere but the the middle of the line where they are clashing (and held relatively static by the melee) and there you are highly likely to get your own troops.
However for battlefield control it could be nice since it'll deny enemy troops an area they can easily travel through.
The Greeks used something similar in that they smoldered chicken feathers creating an arsenic cloud that killed invading troops in their city. Just opened the gates left the feathers smoldering and took to the tops of buildings and let the poisonous smog do its thing.
The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play rune quest or any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
5x8x10 hole in 3 seconds? I assume you are pulling out the disintegrate at this point and give you props for allowing the wall its save throw (object gets partial) but in which case the wall would only take 5d6 damage (ignoring empowering or maximizing or any other such thing).
However I feel it's a bit disingenuous to compare an 11th level wizard to a 6th level fighter.
The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?
Absolutely! Magic is Magic. You are bending the laws of physics through the supernatural. The Fighter cannot bend physics.
You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play Rune Quest or Role Master any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
Runequest is a far simpler system than PAthfinder. All Runequest does is simulate DIFFERENTLY. It does not simulate any BETTER.
Just because a fighter CAN absurdly cut through a castle wall because it is in the rules, does not mean a GM should allow it. If a player argued that with me, they would have to turn in their Common Sense Card. No one would argue with me on that ruling, or at least they haven't yet. They couldn't win it if they tried though.
Just because a RPG system is simple is not license to throw away common sense. An individual DM must understand when the rules cross the boundary of common sense and rule accordingly.
As for the tunneling with an adamantine dagger thing, my group *long ago* house-ruled that adamantine weapons halve the hardness of something they hit. Not -20. Just half. Cutting the hardness of stone from 8 to 4 is more than adequate. The price also dropped a bit, since it was no longer free-sunder-palooza.
Just touching on something real quick -- Adamantine ignores hardness under 20 -- it doesn't subtract 20 from the hardness. If you swing a piece of adamantine against another piece of adanamtine or a +3 mithril weapon you have to deal with the entire hardness (adanamtine has a hardness of 20 and therefore isn't below 20 and +3 mithril will have a hardness of 21).
I've seen a lot of people do it the way you are speaking (the -20 hardness bit) but wanted to point out that it's not how it technically works.
The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?
Absolutely! Magic is Magic. You are bending the laws of physics through the supernatural. The Fighter cannot bend physics.
Well tell that to the guys breaking things with other things that shouldn't be breaking them (say bricks with bones and flesh). The force some martial artists and MMA types can put out is high enough their own bones should be breaking.
As for the tunneling with an adamantine dagger thing, my group *long ago* house-ruled that adamantine weapons halve the hardness of something they hit. Not -20. Just half. Cutting the hardness of stone from 8 to 4 is more than adequate. The price also dropped a bit, since it was no longer free-sunder-palooza.Just touching on something real quick -- Adamantine ignores hardness under 20 -- it doesn't subtract 20 from the hardness. If you swing a piece of adamantine against another piece of adanamtine or a +3 mithril weapon you have to deal with the entire hardness (adanamtine has a hardness of 20 and therefore isn't below 20 and +3 mithril will have a hardness of 21).
I've seen a lot of people do it the way you are speaking (the -20 hardness bit) but wanted to point out that it's not how it technically works.
How is +3 mithril 21. I can only work out 18.
How is +3 mithril 21. I can only work out 18.
Mithral starts with a hardness of 15 and you add 2 for each +1 enhancement bonus it has (and 10 more hp as well).
Look on the charts for breaking stuff in exploration and on the special materials listings.
How is +3 mithril 21. I can only work out 18.Mithral starts with a hardness of 15 and you add 2 for each +1 enhancement bonus it has (and 10 more hp as well).
Look on the charts for breaking stuff in exploration and on the special materials listings.
Thank you!
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The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play rune quest or any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
5x8x10 hole in 3 seconds? I assume you are pulling out the disintegrate at this point and give you props for allowing the wall its save throw (object gets partial) but in which case the wall would only take 5d6 damage (ignoring empowering or maximizing or any other such thing).However I feel it's a bit disingenuous to compare an 11th level wizard to a 6th level fighter.
Passwall does a 5x8 and 10 ft long hole. It allows no save. It is 5th level so I am comparing a 9th level wizard to the 6th level fighter. The level of the fighter does not matter TarkXT seems to think that he should not be able to smash his way through a wall.
It's an advancement on a line of thought. The level of the fighter is irrelevant it's the fact that it can be done and not one thought was put into things like.
So lets compare a 9th level fighter to a 9th level wizard. The fighter is basically the same but can smash through faster than before. It still takes him a few minutes. Meanwhile the wizard already has his platoon in place.
Passwall does a 5x8 and 10 ft long hole. It allows no save. It is 5th level so I am comparing a 9th level wizard to the 6th level fighter. The level of the fighter does not matter TarkXT seems to think that he should not be able to smash his way through a wall.
Passwall makes more sense. I was wondering if you were thinking that a partial on disintegrate would be 1/2 the space or something.
Please note however that the 'platoon' is still going to take some time going through the wizard's bottleneck (and like any other bottleneck that's a really good place to drop a cloudkill).
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Passwall does a 5x8 and 10 ft long hole. It allows no save. It is 5th level so I am comparing a 9th level wizard to the 6th level fighter. The level of the fighter does not matter TarkXT seems to think that he should not be able to smash his way through a wall.
Passwall makes more sense. I was wondering if you were thinking that a partial on disintegrate would be 1/2 the space or something.Please note however that the 'platoon' is still going to take some time going through the wizard's bottleneck (and like any other bottleneck that's a really good place to drop a cloudkill).
I agree with the whole countermeasures thing. Every method of attack has a reasonable countermeasure.
I am just arguing against people who think that it is stupid to let a fighter type beat his way through a wall. Beating things down is what they do. A DM would not blink at the fighter killing a stone golem. Why is an immobile wall any different?
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The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play Rune Quest or Role Master any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
Again, not crazy, stupid.
Well, since he's that high of a level why bother? He can just start teleporting units past it? Or create an iron golem to inexorably bash the gates down?
Really what the wizard is doing is just using a specialized tool, which is what spells mostly are, specialized tool created for specific tasks. If Ashiel told me "A 6th level fighter specialized in the use of ballistas and his magical collapsible siege engine" that would make sense to me.
I am just arguing against people who think that it is stupid to let a fighter type beat his way through a wall. Beating things down is what they do. A DM would not blink at the fighter killing a stone golem. Why is an immobile wall any different?
Mainly? Because a stone golem isn't a solid 5ft by 5ft cube of granite (or sandstone depending on where you are). You don't have to rip the stone golem apart, simply prevent it from killing you, or find a weakness. If you think of stone golems as the legend all you ahve to do is destroy the chem at worst you hack off a limb or three (which aren't 5ft by 5ft cubes). I can visualize that, I can see it and not make my eye twitch.
This notion that I hate fighters (or wizards!) because I don't allow them to abuse the rules to do something patently ridiculous is beyond silly.
Oh, by the way.
"With Karkon's fell words he calls forth the dark energies of the Nether. Black energies seep through the cracks in reality and fill the Caster-Martial Diaparity beast with renewed energy. The planes weep in sorrow and on three separate planes their are three horrific plague epidemics while angels tear out their eyes in despair for if man can so easily wrought his own destruction what hope is there? As the writhing mass arises once more it gibbers three words in three different languages. Told. You. So.
"With Karkon's fell words he calls forth the dark energies of the Nether. Black energies seep through the cracks in reality and fill the Caster-Martial Diaparity beast with renewed energy. The planes weep in sorrow and on three separate planes there are three horrific plague epidemics while angels tear out their eyes in despair for if man can so easily wrought his own destruction what hope is there? As the writhing mass arises once more it gibbers three words in three different languages. Told. You. So.
FOR LOVE OF GORUM, BARBARIAN BEEN THROUGH THIS ALREADY. AM LIKE FIFTIETH TIME DESTRUCITY BEEN SMASHED. STOP REVIVING DESTRUCITY THAT AM SMASHED, ALREADY.
The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?You want weapon repair and getting exhausted from fighting go play Rune Quest or Role Master any of the other more "realistic" fantasy games. When you get tired of all the calculations and rerolling and other BS you can come back here and enjoy the simplicity.
Again, not crazy, stupid.
Well, since he's that high of a level why bother? He can just start teleporting units past it? Or create an iron golem to inexorably bash the gates down?
Teleport at that level will only get 9 people -- the passwall will last for 9 hours, allowing for many more to pass through each round.
An iron golem can knock the gate down but again a bunch of soldiers with a battering ram would be just as effective and cheaper (possibly more effective actually -- see my above posts on walls and gates).
Teleport at that level will only get 9 people -- the passwall will last for 9 hours, allowing for many more to pass through each round.
An iron golem can knock the gate down but again a bunch of soldiers with a battering ram would be just as effective and cheaper (possibly more effective actually -- see my above posts on walls and gates).
Well that depends on the quality of the people you take really. If it's 9 adventurers? You can do quite a bit of damage before it become necessary to teleport out. Poison wells, burn supplies, kill key personnel. A siege cna end rather quickly when the span of holding out turns from years into hours because someone's been teleporting groups of enemy soldiers raised as plague zombies into the city.
Well that depends on the quality of the people you take really. If it's 9 adventurers? You can do quite a bit of damage before it become necessary to teleport out. Poison wells, burn supplies, kill key personnel. A siege cna end rather quickly when the span of holding out turns from years into hours because someone's been teleporting groups of enemy soldiers raised as plague zombies into the city.
Teleport at that level will only get 9 people -- the passwall will last for 9 hours, allowing for many more to pass through each round.
An iron golem can knock the gate down but again a bunch of soldiers with a battering ram would be just as effective and cheaper (possibly more effective actually -- see my above posts on walls and gates).
That's provided you don't have someone on the inside ready to keep you occupied the entire time you are without support inside the walls, and no one in there has anything that can D.anchor.
And that's assuming you land in the right spot and knew where you are going.
Personally I see a lot of this as great reasons to put the video game, "you can't be here and it's a serious crime for you to do so" laws into effect -- by limiting who goes where in your defenses you also limit who can be scried on, where they can teleport too and such.
Don't forget my favorite spell: Teleport Trap. Redirect teleports somewhere well defended. Pull the lever to drop them into an ooze if they are uninvited.
Well that depends on the quality of the people you take really. If it's 9 adventurers? You can do quite a bit of damage before it become necessary to teleport out. Poison wells, burn supplies, kill key personnel. A siege cna end rather quickly when the span of holding out turns from years into hours because someone's been teleporting groups of enemy soldiers raised as plague zombies into the city.
Teleport at that level will only get 9 people -- the passwall will last for 9 hours, allowing for many more to pass through each round.
An iron golem can knock the gate down but again a bunch of soldiers with a battering ram would be just as effective and cheaper (possibly more effective actually -- see my above posts on walls and gates).
That's provided you don't have someone on the inside ready to keep you occupied the entire time you are without support inside the walls, and no one in there has anything that can D.anchor.
And that's assuming you land in the right spot and knew where you are going.
Personally I see a lot of this as great reasons to put the video game, "you can't be here and it's a serious crime for you to do so" laws into effect -- by limiting who goes where in your defenses you also limit who can be scried on, where they can teleport too and such.
Well that's where you have that idea of wetwork I've been talking about, to find those areas where it's feasible. It becomes impractical to try and D. Anchor the whole city. After all the local wizards at least want to get home without going through the gates like a common peasant!
This seems like a good way to start an adventure. The city is so well fortified against teleportation and aerial attacks the only way in is through the dark and deadly sewers that have been left alone because "no one would be that crazy".
Well that depends on the quality of the people you take really. If it's 9 adventurers? You can do quite a bit of damage before it become necessary to teleport out. Poison wells, burn supplies, kill key personnel. A siege cna end rather quickly when the span of holding out turns from years into hours because someone's been teleporting groups of enemy soldiers raised as plague zombies into the city.
Teleport at that level will only get 9 people -- the passwall will last for 9 hours, allowing for many more to pass through each round.
An iron golem can knock the gate down but again a bunch of soldiers with a battering ram would be just as effective and cheaper (possibly more effective actually -- see my above posts on walls and gates).
How many portable holes stuffed with troops are those nine people carrying? ;-)
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Speaking of wartime adventures, The Breaking of Forstor Nagar is a really awesome adventure that takes place during a siege.
There's far more to medieval warfare than walls and magical attacks. (apologies if I missed something, I skimmed the thread above)
1 transportation. You now have options to move people in amazing ways. Imagine if general Lee could have been at every battle of the Confederacy. Even if it's not able to move the whole army, the right person could make a difference.
2 communication. No more missing orders, no more confusion. The charge of the light brigade might never have happened with a reach message spell (1st level) to confirm orders.
3 intelligence. The big advantage of a 5th level wizard is that you can get an invisible flyng scout. Enemy position moving? You have a much better chance of knowing where the enemy is. Divination just makes it worse.
4 logistics. Supply and logistics are totally different. Create food and water could be stockpiled as scrolls or wands, no need for bulky granaries. Sieges (very common to medieval warfare) might be irrelevant to a golem army which doesn't eat. A castle with a teleportation gate might be able to withstand a siege indefinitely.
I foresee a late medieval kind of warfare, lots of wars of maneuver, waiting to engage until your side has an advantage.
How many portable holes stuffed with troops are those nine people carrying? ;-)
Makes a Greek gift of a horse to the Trojans even more dangerous. :P
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Good post. I particularly like the point that mages - who usually have, what, a 16 intelligence? - will not particularly want to cast fireball, since it's like holding up a giant sign that says I JUST KILLED NINE OF YOUR BUDDIES AND I ONLY HAVE 28 HP! That's not to say that mages won't take the field, but they'd almost certainly prefer infiltration or night-time strikes (when they can avoid massed fire and waste fewer resources on defensive spells) over open battle.Yes, but in a large, confused fracas, is it immediately obvious who launched the fireball? I could see you having a general idea of the area it came from, but of the specific person who launched it, especially if that person is dressed like a common soldier?
Remember a crucial point: all spells are direct fire weapons.
You don't see something? You can't cast at it/him.So to fire your fireball you need to be in the first row of the army.
Even worse fireball detonate if it hit something. It can seem fluff, but it mean that if you are firing at something 400' away, with moving troops in the middle, you incur the risk of hitting the wrong target as someone move in the middle between the time you start casting and the time your spell is finished (initiative is abstract in pathfinder, so it don't happen in the normal game, but you should consider that when speaking of armies. A lot is going around in those 6 seconds rounds).
Area buffs are way more easy to use as you can be in the middle of the army.
What if you set the fireball off on top of the tetsudo? Surely the flame will heat up the shields and seep in between the spaces between them.
The shields aren't solid slab of metal. They are a layer of metal ona wooden support generally, so the guy using them wouldn't get burned.
About the "fireball seeping in between them" you should look the rules about the burst area of effect. This isn't 1rst or 2nd edition. The fireball hadn't a fixed volume, it is a burst.A general note about fortresses: My opinion is that most Pathfinder fortresses will be more similar to XVI century fortresses than XIV century.
The renaissance fortresses were build to withstand siege guns, something very similar to the use of powerful magic.
Another little point: Bricks. They are manufactured items, so immune to most magic that affect stone. A brick facing and/or a few row of bricks to separate layers of stones in your wall width and you will block a lot of stone damaging effects.
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Well in the case of a fireball, the cover creates a problem. They will all need to know when the Casty is about to Casty his fireball though which may create a problem for them.
On the other hand the Stone Call does not fire off in one direction, it simply fills a volume. There is no one direction to protect from, so the umbrealla wont work.
Shifty that spell say: "A rain of dirt, gravel, and small pebbles fills the area," where the operative word is rain.
From the spell description it is pretty clear that the stuff is falling down on your head the first round and the it fill the ground.I know that people like to dismiss anything they don't like as fluff, but reading the spell description is important.
Oh, by the way, my interpretation is absolutely RAW, to quote the magic section:
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and [b]the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder[b]. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.
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Otherwise I'll still simply stick to the method that's older than time and hit you with waves of peasants. Sure you'll kill some... but the rest will get to you and then you've got problems.
Except that you're a general leading a battle, not someone with brain washed automatons. "you'll run out of spells before i run out of bodies" is a great plan when you're the general. if you're one of those bodies.. not so much.
You try that on a battlefield and they'll run away at best, and reinvent the word frag into something nastier when its done with a thoqua at worst.
Check WWII and the Russian human wave tactic. It killed a lot of soldiers, but the German have lost the war.
Check WWII and the Russian human wave tactic. It killed a lot of soldiers, but the German have lost the war.
True. Although they did have to setup machine gun lines behind their own troops with orders to shoot anyone running away. There was a battle where the Germans lost more troops against the Russians than the US and Britain lost during the entire war. The Russians lost twice as many. Nasty stuff.
Check WWII and the Russian human wave tactic. It killed a lot of soldiers, but the German have lost the war.True. Although they did have to setup machine gun lines behind their own troops with orders to shoot anyone running away. There was a battle where the Germans lost more troops against the Russians than the US and Britain lost during the entire war. The Russians lost twice as many. Nasty stuff.
Yeah but the tactic is older than proverbial dirt. Plenty of nations used it before the Russians did and I'm willing to bet plenty more will before everything is over.
The shields aren't solid slab of metal. They are a layer of metal ona wooden support generally, so the guy using them wouldn't get burned.
About the "fireball seeping in between them" you should look the rules about the burst area of effect. This isn't 1rst or 2nd...
And you need to look at fireball again. Its a spread, not a burst.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
A fireball would just go around the shields. So unless its a solid slab above all the troops, they will be hit. If there is a hole. the fireball can get in.
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Um... I'm not seeing how you are using a disguise to give a -40 to seeing him. If you said stealth or something I might slide with that but honestly a disguise check and you're just dropping a -40? That's not how the disguise skill works.
Not further. 250ft + 250ft per 2 levels of the commander (effectively) for a cannon, 400 + 40 per level for fireball.Yeah, but the wizard isn't wearing armor, most likely, and by pathfinder rules, its still just a spot check.
A spot check made at -40 when the wizard can make a disguise check and take 10. He'll be fine.
Just to point it out:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point.
So the position of the caster at the moment in which he did cast the fireball is perfectly know. At best he could have moved 40' with magic boots for extra speed and no obstacles (sure, a battlefield with no obstacles, .... so our wizard is in the open and easy to see?).
Perfect situation for counter fire.
The shields aren't solid slab of metal. They are a layer of metal ona wooden support generally, so the guy using them wouldn't get burned.
About the "fireball seeping in between them" you should look the rules about the burst area of effect. This isn't 1rst or 2nd...And you need to look at fireball again. Its a spread, not a burst.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.A fireball would just go around the shields. So unless its a solid slab above all the troops, they will be hit. If there is a hole. the fireball can get in.
Specifically if there is a 1 foot square gap, and no special abilities in play.
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And you need to look at fireball again. Its a spread, not a burst.The shields aren't solid slab of metal. They are a layer of metal ona wooden support generally, so the guy using them wouldn't get burned.
About the "fireball seeping in between them" you should look the rules about the burst area of effect. This isn't 1rst or 2nd...
Missed that you are right.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.A fireball would just go around the shields. So unless its a solid slab above all the troops, they will be hit. If there is a hole. the fireball can get in.
Yes, I was thinking about Improved cover more than total cover. Fun, apparently total cover is worse than improved.
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The wizard can put a 5x8 and 10ft long hole in the wall in 3 seconds and you will not let the fighter do it in 10 minutes because it is too crazy?
Again, not crazy, stupid.Well, since he's that high of a level why bother? He can just start teleporting units past it? Or create an iron golem to inexorably bash the gates down?
Really what the wizard is doing is just using a specialized tool, which is what spells mostly are, specialized tool created for specific tasks. If Ashiel told me "A 6th level fighter specialized in the use of ballistas and his magical collapsible siege engine" that would make sense to me.
I am just arguing against people who think that it is stupid to let a fighter type beat his way through a wall. Beating things down is what they do. A DM would not blink at the fighter killing a stone golem. Why is an immobile wall any different?Mainly? Because a stone golem isn't a solid 5ft by 5ft cube of granite (or sandstone depending on where you are). You don't have to rip the stone golem apart, simply prevent it from killing you, or find a weakness. If you think of stone golems as the legend all you ahve to do is destroy the chem at worst you hack off a limb or three (which aren't 5ft by 5ft cubes). I can visualize that, I can see it and not make my eye twitch.
This notion that I hate fighters (or wizards!) because I don't allow them to abuse the rules to do something patently ridiculous is beyond silly.
I did not say you hate fighters(and other cut/stab types). Only that you want to apply real world rules to them that you do not apply to casters.
A golem IS made of hard stone, from the bestiary: A stone golem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. It weighs 2000 lbs when done. The Stone Golem is so tough you need adamantine to beat its DR. It is tougher than the stone as it has a 10 DR vs 8 hardness and you need adamantine to beat the DR.
As far as destroying the stone wall, if you are trying to imagine the fighter reducing the entire 5x5 section to dust then you are being inconsistent in your principle. Applying the same rule as the Stone Golem then fighter just has to destroy enough to make that section fall down.
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The first army to realise the power of the Message Cantrip (and higher level message spells) and used it to coordinate their forces like a modern army instead of like a medieval one would have a significant advantage.
One of the main problems faced by historical armies is you don't know what's happening out of your own line of sight.
This meant commanders had to do what they thought best based on what they knew - or horse delivered messages that could be minutes or hours out of date (and based on even older reports the main commander received).
During WW2 the fact that American forces had more radios was a significant advantages over the German forces.
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noYou can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check. You point your finger at each creature you want to receive the message. When you whisper, the whispered message is audible to all targeted creatures within range. ...
This spell has several problems.
1) range. 100 ft are approximately 30 meters. Even assuming a 10th level caster we are speaking of 200 ft or about 60 meters. Not much.
2) You must point at the guy you want to receive the message. Not easy if that individual is on the other side of a formation. A battlefield usually is not conductive to clear lines of sight.
If your target is easy to spot for you, he is easy to spot for the enemy too.
Not conductive to a long life.
3) You can resolve some of the problems with a chain of guys using this cantrip. But then you have a chain of guys passing a verbal report to each other. After a few passages your information will be distorted.
4) the guys using this spell need to know something of warfare or their reports will have little value. Or they will be attacked to an official and operate as a transmitter, sending messages that they will barely comprehend. Again, dangerous as you risk distortions in what they report.
All the above hardly make them useless, but they will be less useful that you will think.
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The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.Well, that shows the problem. In Girl genius you're either a spark (caster), or you exist simply to die in a humorous fashion to demonstrate how the electro gun, laser plank, or honey badger launcher works.
Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
The life expectancy of a foot soldiers against a moderate level party is also low.
In the comic regular people survive for long periods. Especially under the prosperity brought by the Baron's peace. In war people still survive as sparks are rare and strong sparks are rarer. Just like in D&D the special people will cut normals like a scythe cuts grain.
Most wars in fantasy worlds are mostly fought normals vs normals. It is when the exceptional people get involved that normals start to die at a really frightening rate.
Anyway, I was just giving the castle as an example of a fantasy defense system. Really in the world of Girl Genius it is so exceptional as to be unique (I think).
Girl Genius. It is in my permanent bookmarks. :D
If you go back to volume four you will will find Payne speaking about his Circus and its function at hiding weak sparks.
Strong sparks can use people as experiment fodder. Weak sparks are burned by a mob if someone stronger don't protect them.
Pathfinder is similar. A low level spellcaster training probably cost as much as a modern times fighter pilot training and at low level the spellcaster isn't so useful. They are long term investments.
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Feather fall a punch of paratroopers? Dispel magic, gust of wind to blow them off course, fireball in mid fall, have a force roof that you can turn on to deflect ariel attacks.
Note that the spell last 1 round/level, so Ashiel feather fall Single use, use-activated item cost 50 gp for each 60' of slow descent and the guys stay in the air for 1 round for every 60'.
So either the hot air dirigibles are flying at very low altitude (and so are easy targets) or each paratrooper cost a lot of money. And probably become a costly pincushion during his descent.
Ashiel has several good ideas on the use of magic, but sometime she cut too many corners in her examples.
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I would train my troops for high altitude low feather fall. Also, invisibility. Drop from 3000ft or so and drop until you pass the top of the tower. Then hit feather fall with a prepared action. A few guys splat, a few do it too early and get shot. The ones who make it land invisible and charge to capture the gate house.
Of course my force roof might still stop them but not everyone can afford those.
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Passwall does a 5x8 and 10 ft long hole. It allows no save. It is 5th level so I am comparing a 9th level wizard to the 6th level fighter. The level of the fighter does not matter TarkXT seems to think that he should not be able to smash his way through a wall.
"You create a passage through wooden, plaster, or stone walls, but not through metal or other harder materials."
- As already proposed, a wall of iron in the middle of the construction to stop that;
- actually even a rampart will stop that;
- maybe even bricks as they don't fall in any of the cited materials, but that is a bit far fetched.
As the metal sheet will stop most earth gliding creatures it is probably the best solution.
You can train people to relay messages precicely. But it is difficult. I could imagine an army that as adepts forming a signal corps. Training would likely be like playing the telephone game, save that if you make a mistake, you get beaten. Boot camp run by the Clerics.
You can train people to relay messages precicely. But it is difficult. I could imagine an army that as adepts forming a signal corps. Training would likely be like playing the telephone game, save that if you make a mistake, you get beaten. Boot camp run by the Clerics.
Like a dancing lights formation.