So 2.2 minutes to carve through 900 hp worth of stone 5ft thick. If the wall was fifteen feet thick, he would have it done in less than 7 minutes. That's better than a siege ram.Stone has 15 hp per inch of thickness. 12x15 is 180 per foot x 5 feet is 900 hp for a single 5 foot thick section that is 5x5x5.
IF the wall is only 500 feet long and 20 feet high and only 15 feet thick that's 100 sections x 4 sections x 3 sections or 1,200 sections with 900 hp each.
So a wall has 1,080,000 hp.
If it's only 10 feet tall and 10 feet thick then it's still 400 sections or 360,000 hp total.
at 27 damage a round for a 5x5x5 section you have 33 1/3 rounds per section. That's over 3 minutes per section and provided nothing gets him first and that it isn't magically treated stone which doubles hardness and hit points.
And that doesn't breach the wall still, it simply breaks it -- you haven't removed the stone from existance it's simply not a 'wall' anymore -- it's instead a hill of stone.
So 2.2 minutes to carve through 900 hp worth of stone 5ft thick. If the wall was fifteen feet thick, he would have it done in less than 7 minutes. That's better than a siege ram.Stone has 15 hp per inch of thickness. 12x15 is 180 per foot x 5 feet is 900 hp for a single 5 foot thick section that is 5x5x5.
IF the wall is only 500 feet long and 20 feet high and only 15 feet thick that's 100 sections x 4 sections x 3 sections or 1,200 sections with 900 hp each.
So a wall has 1,080,000 hp.
If it's only 10 feet tall and 10 feet thick then it's still 400 sections or 360,000 hp total.
at 27 damage a round for a 5x5x5 section you have 33 1/3 rounds per section. That's over 3 minutes per section and provided nothing gets him first and that it isn't magically treated stone which doubles hardness and hit points.
And that doesn't breach the wall still, it simply breaks it -- you haven't removed the stone from existance it's simply not a 'wall' anymore -- it's instead a hill of stone.
Well I guess if he wanted to be cute, we could gear him with an adamantine weapon and add another +16-24 damage to his attack routine under these conditions. See how magically treated handles that. That's assuming of course that his job was to help breach the wall so that soldiers could enter a keep or similar.
Likewise, I've found nothing in the rules that says the wall continues to block your path after breaking it apart. As best as I can tell, it might be considered difficult terrain, but that's about the extent of it.
Is there a reason you're trying to be argumentative or resistant to this?
EDIT: Going to bed, see you guys tomorrow.
I was more considering the wall above him falling on him. Stone normally doesn't simply float in midair when you remove its supports, especially not if there is a lot of it.That's 8d6 damage, with a DC 15 Reflex for half if the thing collapses in on him. However, he could just be weakening it with the express intention of causing it to collapse, creating a breach in the wall that he and his allies could move across to reach the rest of a fortress.
They took out the weight rules for falling that were in 3.5 -- how odd.
This is how I imagine what fortification and warfare would look like in a high magic world.
Warfare would be a combination of Napoleonic/Late WW1(tanks = golems, ogres, giants)and Imperial Roman. Mass formations screens of skirmishers there would be a combination of mobility and strong points. the number Flying creatures/NPCs would not be on the same scale as WWII but something around WWI size.
Infantry would want both ranged and hand to hand weapons - Javelins and darts being the most portable on the battle field. You would want shields so you could form up a shield wall against an arrow storm or magical effect. Professional troops would be able to form up or spread out at need. Conscripts less well trained troops would spread out to minimise losses.
Defences would be a combination of Star fortsand the Maginot Line .
Things like gravity bow applied to ballista, specially designed alchemical bolts or loads for catapults. Spells that increase range...
It would be a mess and lots of fun to GM.
Well I guess if he wanted to be cute, we could gear him with an adamantine weapon and add another +16-24 damage to his attack routine under these conditions. See how magically treated handles that. That's assuming of course that his job was to help breach the wall so that soldiers could enter a keep or similar.Likewise, I've found nothing in the rules that says the wall continues to block your path after breaking it apart. As best as I can tell, it might be considered difficult terrain, but that's about the extent of it.
Is there a reason you're trying to be argumentative or resistant to this?
EDIT: Going to bed, see you guys tomorrow.
Only the fact you are targeting only part of the wall instead of the whole wall and saying that it's enough to get through where it isn't.
The wall has 1,080,000 hp -- that is the section you are dealing with, not the little bit you want to target.
It's like hacking at the fighter's arms -- I can't claim I'm simply cutting meat and kill him by sundering his arm or chest without dealing with his actual HP.
It's like hacking at the fighter's arms -- I can't claim I'm simply cutting meat and kill him by sundering his arm or chest without dealing with his actual HP
Walls have rules for damaging sections, people do not.
From wall of stone.
Each 5-foot square of the wall has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness.
Abraham, you can't simply assume the rock is going to pile up there as an unmortared wall. You only need to breach a small area to screw up the point of the wall, thats why people spend so much time attacking/defending the gates.
First off something that's bugging me -- You know how to quote don't you? Simply click the reply button. Honestly it's not that hard and works a lot better than the hack job copy and pasting. IF you don't want to click reply then it's open bracket 'QUOTE' close braket "[-quote-]" like that without the dashes. To end the quote it's the same thing but with a back slash "/" before the word quote.
With that out of the way:
Quoting a spell doesn't really work for universal rules when there are actual universal rules.
Walls Which doesn't state you can just choose a five foot section.
Now if we go to siege engines we find the following though:
Walls
The walls that guard castles and cities are sturdy fortifications, usually constructed in a series of 5-foot squares. A square of wall has an AC of 5, and hardness and hit points equal to its type.
Squares of walls can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating wall squares costs 500 gp per wall square. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat walls.
When a wall gains the broken condition, its hardness is halved, but the wall is not breached. Only destroying a section of wall allows it to become breached. When a square of wall is breached, any sections directly above it fall onto the missing section of walls. Doing this reduces the falling wall section to half its current hit point total –1, which applies the broken condition to that square of wall.
But see the above portions do fall and more importantly are not breached. You still have to go through them. Which means even if you are only cutting a 5 foot gap in a 20 foot tall 15 foot thick wall you are going to deal with 12 such sections before you are through.
And that 5 foot gap isn't going to get you very far, you're going to want at least 15 foot if you want to get troops in fast enough to really establish a beach head.
Gates are attacked because once they are broken they are breached:
Gates serve as the entrances and exits to fortified structures, and are typically the weakest spots in any fortification’s defenses. Gates are at least Large, but can be as large as Colossal. It typically takes three full-round actions to open or close a Large gate (up to three creatures can work together to close a Large gate as a full-round action), and larger gates typically take at least a minute to close or open. Gates have ACs based on their size (a Large gate is AC 4, a Huge gate is AC 3, and a Gargantuan or larger gate is AC 0).Gates can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating a gate costs 2,000 gp for a Large gate, 4,000 gp for a Huge gate, 8,000 gp for a Gargantuan gate, and 16,000 gp for a Colossal gate. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat gates.
Gates can be attacked and damaged, or they can become broken (as the condition) with a successful Strength check, usually as a result of ramming. When a gate gains the broken condition, it is effectively breached, and can be moved through as if it were an opening one size smaller.
Also unlike the wall you can burst them with a strength check.
Rams are good at this:
Rams: The most basic close assault weapons are iron-shod logs carried by one or more creatures to combine their strength. A ram can be used to deal damage or to make a Strength check against the target’s break DC.
Ramming Charge: Rams require momentum to be effective. All creatures using the ram must use the charge action to gain its full effect. Creatures not wishing to charge may make a ram attack as a full-round action, taking a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls and Strength checks with the ram.
Breaking: The crew leader makes a Strength check with a +2 bonus, adding +2 for each member of the crew (or equivalent number of larger creatures; see Crew) assisting. The ram also provides a +4 bonus per size category above Medium.
Damage: The crew leader makes an attack roll with a –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals the listed damage, plus the Strength modifiers of the crew leader and all members of the crew, regardless of their size.
Improvised Ram: Any tree, log, or timber can be used as a ram with a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls and Strength checks.
Pick: A ram with a pick head grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks and attack and damage rolls made against stone structures.
Screw: A ram with a screw head grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks and attack and damage rolls made against earthen structures.
Gallery Ram: This is a ram suspended from chains or ropes within a gallery. A gallery ram does not require a charge action for full momentum. In addition, adding tethers to the back end of the ram allows four additional crew members to assist in using the ram.
Hit Points: Rams have a hardness of 5 and hit points based on their size. A Large ram has 30 hit points, a Huge one has 120 hit points, a Gargantuan one has 320 hit points, and a Colossal one has 625 hit points. Improvised rams have half the normal hit points.
So if you have a ram that is gargantuan and has 20 guys helping you have a +48 on your strength check to burst it.
A large stone door has a burst DC of 38, a huge has a 43 a gargantuan has a 48 and a colossal has a 48.
So with that gargantuan ram you can get the gate open in one round.
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I'm not sure there are rules to support it, but I imagine attacking stone with something like a sword would eventually break the sword.
I'd be tempted to make sunder attempts each time the sword was used this way. A pick is designed to use against stone though, so maybe that's a better option. Maybe that's just me applying too much real life to my fantasy though.
Also, for those interested, the Eberron book mentioned earlier was called forge of war. It details the armies, war machines and tactics of a 100 year war in a highly magical world. Of course, apart from the pc's, most folk in that campaign are quite low level.
Additionally, if you've read the war of the spider queen books, they detail a number of wars between highly magical races, including some cool battles betweenduegar and drow. Worth a look if you're interested in this type of thing. Lots of magical defenses and arcane devices being bandied about in that book, few of which are detailed in the rules but certainly in the realms of possibility.
It would be nice to see folk put some thought into the types of things that armies would have specifically built for them to help in a magical world. I mentioned some earlier. Ashiel mentioned a few more, and Abraham has pulled rules together from the book for magical walls. What else can we come up with?
First off something that's bugging me -- You know how to quote don't you? Simply click the reply button. Honestly it's not that hard
-Goodbye
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All this talk of of warriors drilling through walls with swords makes me think of the french castle scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. All the knights charge the castle walls and Lancelot starts beating on them with his sword. of course nothing happened and they were forced to retreat.
Anyway now that I injected some Monty Python into this thread I'll go back to lurking.
(also I hope you see just how silly this argument is :p)
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First off something that's bugging me -- You know how to quote don't you? Simply click the reply button. Honestly it's not that hard-Goodbye
Been lurking on this board and I gotta tell you Big Norse Wolf, Abraham Spaulding is right. It can be difficult to follow posts when there is no separation of your post from that of whomever you are 'quoting'.
The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.
The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.
Would an oversized pick be a better choice?
The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.Would an oversized pick be a better choice?
Only slightly.
The only issue I have with this is that the only issue that people are having is it can be done by a 6th level Fighter.
Look guys, a 1st, 2nd, and probably even a 5th level Fighter can't do it like this. Not nearly at those speeds (4th would have the Power Attack for it, but not the iterative attack to make it quick) anyway.
That's just the point though. 6th level Fighters aren't supposed to be common by any means in D20/3.x/PF. A 6th level character is not a normal person. He's a champion of champions. He's like Hercules. He can fight mighty beasts like the dreaded Hydra, and walk away from the fight.
I consider the Fantasy aspect a major consideration here. We are not talking about normal people. We are talking about people who, by 6th level, defy the limits of mortals three times before breakfast and thrice after lunch here.
Also, Abraham, please follow the rules with us here, dude. An object gains the broken when you've dealt half or more of its HP in damage to it. It is actually destroyed when its HP reaches zero.
The 900 HP, hardness 8 wall would gain the Broken condition at 450 HP in, at which point further hardness would be 4. If the upper wall collapses down to become the lower wall, it automatically drops to 449 hit points, and gains the broken condition as well, making it easier to tear through.
So if you have a 20 ft wall, 15 ft thick, and the wall was impossible to break through without it collapsing in on itself and sealing up the 5ft hole, then the Fighter would deal...
1,350 damage vs hardness 8 (3.3 minutes)
5,400 damage vs hardness 4 (10.2 minutes)
A total of 13.5 minutes for our 6th level Fighter to tear not through a 15ft thick 5ft tall wall, but four 15 ft thick 5ft tall walls (assuming the 15ft feet above it keeps sliding down like Tetris, as Abraham notes).
I will happily admit that 13.5 minutes is a good long time. But we're talking about a single person tearing through the wall. Honestly, breaching 15 ft through a 20 ft tall stone wall in less than 15 minutes is damn impressive. We should at least give the Fighter that.
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Regarding the walls, really impressive fortifications will have double and triple walls so the once you finally breach a section then you have to start again and still be under attack. It also gives the defenders time to mass forces and magical defenses where you plan to come through.
The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.
The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.
Well, that shows the problem. In Girl genius you're either a spark (caster), or you exist simply to die in a humorous fashion to demonstrate how the electro gun, laser plank, or honey badger launcher works.
Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
Regarding the walls, really impressive fortifications will have double and triple walls so the once you finally breach a section then you have to start again and still be under attack. It also gives the defenders time to mass forces and magical defenses where you plan to come through.
The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.
Honestly it's kind of a moot point. You can just use Dire Badgers to create tunnels under the walls and ignore the whole thing. Of course, it's likely that a massive fortress has stone walls beneath the ground as well. It is called dungeons & dragons after all.
Alternatively, you can easily support an army of paratroopers in D&D. Feather fall is a 1st level spell, which means it's pretty cheap to create a single-use item out of (about 40 gp for a single use that anyone can use).
Likewise, hot-air balloons are enormously easy to create in D&D. A trap that unleashes a burning hands spell or similar to heat the air when a lever is pulled is surprisingly affordable. Any 3rd level adept could create the device that would fuel the balloons.
So you could easily - very easily I might add - have a fleet of blimps, escorted by griffon riders, which fly over large areas dropping carpets of alchemist fire, acid, or even plague as they go, while having soldiers who literally leap from the clouds and activate featherfall before they hit the ground. Of course, the blimps would be accompanied by an escort team of griffon riders who specialize in archery while wearing military saddles and harnesses to prevent them from falling. Finally, they too would be equipped with a single-use feather fall items.
The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.Well, that shows the problem. In Girl genius you're either a spark (caster), or you exist simply to die in a humorous fashion to demonstrate how the electro gun, laser plank, or honey badger launcher works.
Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
*falls over laughing*
The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.
Agreed 100%.
There comes a point where you have to throw the rules aside and apply some measure of reality.
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The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.Well, that shows the problem. In Girl genius you're either a spark (caster), or you exist simply to die in a humorous fashion to demonstrate how the electro gun, laser plank, or honey badger launcher works.
Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
The life expectancy of a foot soldiers against a moderate level party is also low.
In the comic regular people survive for long periods. Especially under the prosperity brought by the Baron's peace. In war people still survive as sparks are rare and strong sparks are rarer. Just like in D&D the special people will cut normals like a scythe cuts grain.
Most wars in fantasy worlds are mostly fought normals vs normals. It is when the exceptional people get involved that normals start to die at a really frightening rate.
Anyway, I was just giving the castle as an example of a fantasy defense system. Really in the world of Girl Genius it is so exceptional as to be unique (I think).
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Regarding the walls, really impressive fortifications will have double and triple walls so the once you finally breach a section then you have to start again and still be under attack. It also gives the defenders time to mass forces and magical defenses where you plan to come through.
The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.
Honestly it's kind of a moot point. You can just use Dire Badgers to create tunnels under the walls and ignore the whole thing. Of course, it's likely that a massive fortress has stone walls beneath the ground as well. It is called dungeons & dragons after all.
Alternatively, you can easily support an army of paratroopers in D&D. Feather fall is a 1st level spell, which means it's pretty cheap to create a single-use item out of (about 40 gp for a single use that anyone can use).
Likewise, hot-air balloons are enormously easy to create in D&D. A trap that unleashes a burning hands spell or similar to heat the air when a lever is pulled is surprisingly affordable. Any 3rd level adept could create the device that would fuel the balloons.
So you could easily - very easily I might add - have a fleet of blimps, escorted by griffon riders, which fly over large areas dropping carpets of alchemist fire, acid, or even plague as they go, while having soldiers who literally leap from the clouds and activate featherfall before they hit the ground. Of course, the blimps would be accompanied by an escort team of griffon riders who specialize in archery while wearing military saddles and harnesses to prevent them from falling. Finally, they too would be equipped with a single-use feather fall items.
Anything the attackers can make for offense the defenders can also make for defense. The advantage is to the defense as what they have is already in place while the attackers have to bring their crap.
Feather fall a punch of paratroopers? Dispel magic, gust of wind to blow them off course, fireball in mid fall, have a force roof that you can turn on to deflect ariel attacks.
Hot Air balloons? When you see them coming you send out your own flying force to bring them down. The griffon flies in with rider and both land on top of the ballon to cut and shred it.
Heck with flying forces it is easier for the defenders to disrupt supply lines and bring a siege down that way. Your flying balloons might never even get close to the castle under seige.
As in the real world it comes down to gold and population. Rich & populous nations will have fantastic defenses and armies. Poor and sparsely populated nations might have to rely on geography and lack of natural resources. Rich but not populous nations might have really impressive defenses and allies but not much of an army. Populous but not rich nations might rely on sheer numbers to overwhelm the enemy.
Real world analogues are America, Afghanistan (especially the mountains), Switzerland, USSR/China.
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The Girl Genius Comic (google it) has some great bits with a sentient castle and city. The entire city is essentially a construct that acts to defend itself. It has other constructs that it commands that defend the air and ground and likely underneath.Well, that shows the problem. In Girl genius you're either a spark (caster), or you exist simply to die in a humorous fashion to demonstrate how the electro gun, laser plank, or honey badger launcher works.
Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
Honey Badger launcher. Congratulations, you've just won the war. ;-)
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Anyway now that I injected some Monty Python into this thread I'll go back to lurking.
What! No Spanish Inquisition?
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Whats the average life expectancy of a foot soldier in that comic? Mayflies are sending them condolence cards.
??? Why did I just get a card from A. Mayfly?
First off something that's bugging me -- You know how to quote don't you? Simply click the reply button. Honestly it's not that hard-Goodbye
Just so you know this one was really bugging me -- I wasn't trying to be rude, however it is really difficult to follow you when you simply copy and paste, especially without attribution of source.
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Also, Abraham, please follow the rules with us here, dude. An object gains the broken when you've dealt half or more of its HP in damage to it. It is actually destroyed when its HP reaches zero.
Hey I quoted the rules for walls above and they agree with me.
I'm sorry you don't like that -- and I'm not saying the fighter can't get through the wall -- only that doing so isn't as fast as you were presenting.
Now I'm not saying a level 6 fighter cannot do it at all -- he obviously can. However it's not going to be very fast and the ram is going to be faster, while requiring less high level people -- a covered gallery ram could be used by first level commoners for example and still break down the gate (which is breached when simply broken instead of destroyed) which will also give a wider entrance to the castle.
The only issue I have with this is that the only issue that people are having is it can be done by a 6th level Fighter.
Look guys, a 1st, 2nd, and probably even a 5th level Fighter can't do it like this. Not nearly at those speeds (4th would have the Power Attack for it, but not the iterative attack to make it quick) anyway.
Still not really the issue. The issue is common flippin sense. If you smack an iron bar against a concrete block your hand is probably going to hurt whether you smashed it or not. Now make that concrete block a 10ft thick reinforced wall and slap it every 3 seconds as hard as you can for five minutes. There's heroic (crashing through the gates after several powerful swings with his mighty axe) and stupid (digging through the solid stone wall with a Dagger because all his feats, class choices, and class options let him and popping out of the other side like the koolaid man). And you can do this with arrows, improvised buckets, etc. etc. the actual weapon is unimportant it's that its possible. Honestly it sounds more like a flaw in the system then your argument so my venom isn't directed at you. But for the kind of shenanigans described I think I'd much rather play Exalted.
And it's true dire badges, or any burrowing creatures would need to be accounted for in fortification design. Hell just imagine a purple worm? :)
The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.Agreed 100%.
There comes a point where you have to throw the rules aside and apply some measure of reality.
Yep we need more reality unless you have one of those pesky caster level stickers then no one ask you to check your abilities for reality.
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Yep we need more reality unless you have one of those pesky caster level stickers then no one ask you to check your abilities for reality.The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.Agreed 100%.
There comes a point where you have to throw the rules aside and apply some measure of reality.
The caster-martial disparity beast rears its many hideous heads spewing forth strawman arguments and false interpretations of the rules that flop about helplessly on the ground gnashing their teeth at the sky seeking life juices to engorge upon. Its nerd rage aura fills you with a nauseous feeling as it writhes onto the edge from the pits of a decent discussion thread.
Roll for initiative.
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The caster-martial disparity beast rears its many hideous heads spewing forth strawman arguments and false interpretations of the rules that flop about helplessly on the ground gnashing their teeth at the sky seeking life juices to engorge upon. Its nerd rage aura fills you with a nauseous feeling as it writhes onto the edge from the pits of a decent discussion thread.Roll for initiative.
Player searching for angles - "Since its on the edge of a pit, shouldn't it make a reflex check to avoid falling. Also, since its climbing out shouldn't it be denied its dex or be flat footed? I'm guessing since its the lesser "Nerd Rage" kind of aberrant, it doesn't have a high AC or hit points. Let me know if it falls, cos that sucker aint gonna like the drop."
Yep we need more reality unless you have one of those pesky caster level stickers then no one ask you to check your abilities for reality.The only Issue I'm taking here is that apparently the 6th level warrior is mining through a mountain in a matter of hours, with a greatsword. I think this is where RAW has to sit down and realize it looks bloody stupid and flies in the face of all common sense.Agreed 100%.
There comes a point where you have to throw the rules aside and apply some measure of reality.
I know if I pulled crap like that on my players they would leave the game en-masse.
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Lots of things fly in the face of common sense. Even real world things. That does not mean they are not true.
Looking at the real world vs D&D is this The Alexandrian which basically comes to the conclusion that the best real world person is about 5th level under D&D type rules.
So at 6th level we have entered into the realm of the legendary and mythic. It also means that starting at 6th level common sense no longer applies to most things these characters can do.
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So at 6th level we have entered into the realm of the legendary and mythic. It also means that starting at 6th level common sense no longer applies to most things these characters can do.
There's a difference between "mythic" and "bloody stupid" mining through a mountain with a spoon falls under the heading "bloody stupid".
I've already said doing heroic things is cool and expected. But hacking through a several foot thick stone wall like the tasmanian devil is not. And it's already been stated that you can do it at lower levels. However what I see is a precedent, which is where I make a lot of my GM rulings.
In this case the precedent being set is that a person can hack apart a fortified castle wall with an edged weapon without getting tired or his weapon being ruined. Thinking like a PC this means I can march everyone up to the wall give them a large enough weapon (and the most skilled of the bunch LARGE weapons) give them cover and I'll have the wall down in seconds rather than minutes. This is the precedent being set. I don't need magic, or siege weapons, or clever tricks. All I need are dudes adn swords and we'll chew through that wall before you can say "the horse is a trap!"
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The caster-martial disparity beast rears its many hideous heads spewing forth strawman arguments and false interpretations of the rules that flop about helplessly on the ground gnashing their teeth at the sky seeking life juices to engorge upon. Its nerd rage aura fills you with a nauseous feeling as it writhes onto the edge from the pits of a decent discussion thread.
Roll for initiative.
NOT REQUIRED. ARGUMENT AM OVER.
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NOT REQUIRED. ARGUMENT AM OVER.The caster-martial disparity beast rears its many hideous heads spewing forth strawman arguments and false interpretations of the rules that flop about helplessly on the ground gnashing their teeth at the sky seeking life juices to engorge upon. Its nerd rage aura fills you with a nauseous feeling as it writhes onto the edge from the pits of a decent discussion thread.
Roll for initiative.
"The caster martial disparity beasts laugh it's undulating form emitting the cries of a thousand dead rogues. It speaks in the tongue of a thousand forgotten worlds and your mind melts at the sheer unreality of the phrases that usher forth like the black ichor dripping from the maw. It shudders as it speaks shedding indescribable horrors from its carapace that blink once, give a cry of pure hate, and pop from existence like a pus filled boil on the flesh of god. Through the gibbering you catch three words in languages that are familiar. I. Cannot. Die."
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"The caster martial disparity beasts laugh it's undulating form emitting the cries of a thousand dead rogues. It speaks in the tongue of a thousand forgotten worlds and your mind melts at the sheer unreality of the phrases that usher forth like the black ichor dripping from the maw. It shudders as it speaks shedding indescribable horrors from its carapace that blink once, give a cry of pure hate, and pop from existence like a pus filled boil on the flesh of god. Through the gibbering you catch three words in languages that are familiar. I. Cannot. Die."NOT REQUIRED. ARGUMENT AM OVER.The caster-martial disparity beast rears its many hideous heads spewing forth strawman arguments and false interpretations of the rules that flop about helplessly on the ground gnashing their teeth at the sky seeking life juices to engorge upon. Its nerd rage aura fills you with a nauseous feeling as it writhes onto the edge from the pits of a decent discussion thread.
Roll for initiative.
PERHAPS BARBARIAN NOT MAKE SELF PERFECTLY CLEAR.
BARBARIAN AM WINNER.
Just wait until you meet his sister "Paladin Alignment Demon"
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BARBARIAN STAY OUT OF PALADIN ALIGNMENT DEBATES. AM GOOD PART OF CHAOTIC NEUTRAL. BARBARIAN ABLE TO SMASH WHATEVER NEED SMASHING WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT SILLY THING LIKE ETHICS OR LEGALITY.
The only issue I have with this is that the only issue that people are having is it can be done by a 6th level Fighter.
Look guys, a 1st, 2nd, and probably even a 5th level Fighter can't do it like this. Not nearly at those speeds (4th would have the Power Attack for it, but not the iterative attack to make it quick) anyway.
Still not really the issue. The issue is common flippin sense. If you smack an iron bar against a concrete block your hand is probably going to hurt whether you smashed it or not. Now make that concrete block a 10ft thick reinforced wall and slap it every 3 seconds as hard as you can for five minutes. There's heroic (crashing through the gates after several powerful swings with his mighty axe) and stupid (digging through the solid stone wall with a Dagger because all his feats, class choices, and class options let him and popping out of the other side like the koolaid man). And you can do this with arrows, improvised buckets, etc. etc. the actual weapon is unimportant it's that its possible. Honestly it sounds more like a flaw in the system then your argument so my venom isn't directed at you. But for the kind of shenanigans described I think I'd much rather play Exalted.
And it's true dire badges, or any burrowing creatures would need to be accounted for in fortification design. Hell just imagine a purple worm? :)
I'm guessing in your games it's impossible to damage dragons, iron golems, and so forth with things like swords, right? I mean, it's the same principle. A normal human cannot hope to even scratch an iron golem in a meaningful way (you literally cannot deal more than 15 damage with a longsword at 1st level, without a critical hit).
Common sense goes out the window very early in D&D. There's a reason E6 exists, and that's because 6th level is epic enough for some people. In fact, it's actually as epic or more epic than most wild fantasies from reality. Heck, we have religions based around the idea that people can be resurrected or healed, and we consider such things to be of divine nature, while any cleric of 7th level can heal the sick, create food from nothing, and raise the dead. Literally every 7th level cleric can mimic the very divine abilities of Jesus, and somehow a 6th level warrior tearing a hole in the wall is upsetting your notion of common sense?
Fighter's can't have nice things, it seems. This trope is alive and well, it seems. God forbid that fantastic warriors do things that are actually fantastic.
Also, Abraham, please follow the rules with us here, dude. An object gains the broken when you've dealt half or more of its HP in damage to it. It is actually destroyed when its HP reaches zero.
Hey I quoted the rules for walls above and they agree with me.
I'm sorry you don't like that -- and I'm not saying the fighter can't get through the wall -- only that doing so isn't as fast as you were presenting.
Now I'm not saying a level 6 fighter cannot do it at all -- he obviously can. However it's not going to be very fast and the ram is going to be faster, while requiring less high level people -- a covered gallery ram could be used by first level commoners for example and still break down the gate (which is breached when simply broken instead of destroyed) which will also give a wider entrance to the castle.
My apologies Abraham. I wasn't trying to be offensive. I was only trying to note that when an object's HP < 1 then it is destroyed, gone, no longer functions or exists in a meaningful way. A broken wall has 1/2 hardness, but it's still there.
Again, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I did. Comes from having Charisma as a dump stat. On a side note, I pretty much always enjoy your posts.
*tip hat*
Just as a sideline Ashiel -- many religions still maintain that those sorts of things can be done today by humans (though with some outer being's power in most such cases). If you check out faith healing you'll still find plenty of people that believe that someone else can heal the lame, blind, and sick with but a touch and prayer. The belief these powers have been and still are around doesn't mean they are or are not right (I'm not making that judgement call on the internet thanks all the same), but it does point out that some do consider it possible in the 'real' world.
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As to the other: Hey we all get frustrated sometimes and this is the internet -- no blood no foul.
In this case the precedent being set is that a person can hack apart a fortified castle wall with an edged weapon without getting tired or his weapon being ruined. Thinking like a PC this means I can march everyone up to the wall give them a large enough weapon (and the most skilled of the bunch LARGE weapons) give them cover and I'll have the wall down in seconds rather than minutes. This is the precedent being set. I don't need magic, or siege weapons, or clever tricks. All I need are dudes adn swords and we'll chew through that wall before you can say "the horse is a trap!"
The problem with this scenario is it's just frankly wrong. Unless you have a crapload of 6th level Fighters or Barbarians running around in your army, who have at least an 18 strength, wall-mining isn't exactly going to get you very far at all.
See, when 3.x D&D came out, the idea was that high level individuals were pretty rare. In fact, the vast majority of the world is between levels 1-3. Which makes sense because there's where the vast majority of "realism" finds its home. Further cementing this realism is the fact that most people are pretty mundane. They have NPC classes, use a lower point buy, and generally don't go out on daring adventures and such, because such things are too dangerous.
Now I guess if you completely go outside how the game is expected to run, and assume that 6th level fighters are not only available but actually plentiful in an army, then sure, I guess you might have a point. Problem is, you're basically describing an army of fantastic individuals. If such a thing is common in the world, then people would fortify much differently. Thicker walls, trapped, collapsing walls, walls that are hollow and release swarms of angry vermin when collapsed, etc.
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Also, soldiers are generally warriors. Most are 1st level. As non-PC classed NPCs, they use 3 point buy. Exactly how far can we expect a single soldier to get trying to tear apart a 5ft stone wall (not a 15 ft thick 20 ft high wall like the Fighter mind you)?
Well, let's assume your soldiers are an elite band of folks that have been trained vigorously over countless hours to excel explicitly at smashing stuff with their weapons. We'll call this group the "Stonebreaker Brigade" because that sounds pretty fancy for guys whose entire purpose in an army is to break down walls.
Point Buy Analysis: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 7 = 3 PB.
Obviously, our training has left our soldiers with muscles that rival ogres, but has left them lacking in grace, and they're not the best conversationalists, not very observant, and not very witty either. That's ok, they've been extremely well trained specifically to bust down walls. Raaaaagh, feel the mighty man-love! If they're human, they probably put their +2 into Strength. That's dedication!
So obviously, they need the biggest, baddest weapon they can use to break down walls. So of course, we give them a giant maul. A nice 2d6 martial hammer. Perfect for cracking up walls!
Finally, we take Power Attack, so we can smash walls!
So what's our score?
2d6+10 or an average of 17 damage per swing. After hardness, that's 9 damage per round. Wait...only 9? But-but...we're the STONEBREAKER BRIGADE! How can it only be 9!? Q.Q
Well, it would take exactly 10 minutes for this dude, who has been trained for nothing else except smashing walls, to break a single 5ft space. Since Abraham pointed out that most walls are taller than 5ft, and castle walls are deeper than 5ft, it might take you the better part of an hour to try and break through the wall. Though admittedly, a team of them could probably smash the wall down pretty well.
But we're talking the most ultimate of the ultimate mooks here. And of course, they aren't very practical in terms of use. I mean, each only has about 5 hp, and are wearing splint mail at best. Probably pretty slow. If you could get them to the wall, they could break it down, if it wasn't very well protected.
Buuuuut...
That all assumes the best case scenario. Literally an entire regimen of men as strong as physically possible at 1st level, trained specifically to break stuff and nothing else.
Your typical soldier can't even harm the wall. The average damage with a one-handed weapon is 4.5. Even with a +2 strength, you don't meet the object's hardness. Even at 2d6+6 (14 str, 2 hander, power attack), you're not really eating through it very fast. Not fast at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you give a bunch of athletic guys sledgehammers and say "Ok, I want you to spend the next few hours breaking this wall apart with these", they could probably oblige.
But it's not practical. Especially since explosives, or simply going over the wall, or breaking the wall down (via a battering ram or enormous beast) is far more effective and far safer, as Abraham has pointed out.
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A hooded ram would provide total cover to everyone within it, and if made well, would protect the people inside from hot tar, pitch, arrows, stones, and other bad things that tend to come down at you from atop the walls.
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Just as a sideline Ashiel -- many religions still maintain that those sorts of things can be done today by humans (though with some outer being's power in most such cases). If you check out faith healing you'll still find plenty of people that believe that someone else can heal the lame, blind, and sick with but a touch and prayer. The belief these powers have been and still are around doesn't mean they are or are not right (I'm not making that judgement call on the internet thanks all the same), but it does point out that some do consider it possible in the 'real' world.
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As to the other: Hey we all get frustrated sometimes and this is the internet -- no blood no foul.
Well, honestly, I actually do believe you can do stuff like that. I've seen enough of it in my lifetime to have no doubt. I've even healed minor wounds myself. Most people don't believe in such things, and I can accept that. However, the christian religion tends to emphasize that Jesus did things like raising the dead, exorcising demons, transmuting water into wine, creating food, and so forth. Most would call these things miracles. In D&D, we call them being 5th-7th level.
Also, before anyone thinks I'm somehow suggesting that the christian religion is fictitious, please note it would be the pot calling the kettle black (in other words, I am a christian, so I don't say these things in an effort to belittle the faith or anything :P).
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Also fun fact. A 3.5 wizard with nothing more than the system reference document can replicate every miracle of the bible including the creation of the world and all life within it, by 17th level.