I'm not gonna lie, this is by far one of the most BUSTED classes I have ever had to deal with in Pathfinder, and it really does make me ill that I ever allowed it in my campaign to begin with.
What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).
I have to ask, is there ANY errata, or is this class just that damn good?
Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).
But yea...if anyone else understands this issues, please post your comments. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
Absolutely and utterly. Along with alchemists that make bombs so fast, without mixing any ingredients they actually buy, to create bombs that no one else can use. >:(
I recall one player was trying to allow me to put gunslingers into the game. I read them up a bit, laughed, said no.
The loading, yes I had a problem with the loading. The tech was matchlock, they do not load that fast, doesn't matter how fast your fingers are. I've watched Japanese matchlock arquebusiers (they were a visiting group to a festival) load and shoot (while wearing armour and on a field, very Sengoku influenced), and I've timed how long it takes. These people were really dedicated professionals. If I recall it takes about six D&D six second rounds, give or take a little. I saw one do it in five rounds and that was really fast.
Player lost his shit. He wanted to use gunpowder tech and load faster than anyone ever has. Sometimes I ever so slightly stick to realism in regards to weaponry, so the gunslinger got jettisoned.
The touch attacks idea of gunpowder weapons is also wrong (but I too have held this idea in the past until I did some research). Some heavy armour stops them, there is the matter of proofed plate armour, and sometimes even lamellar samurai armour took the shots up close and the sam survived without injury. Just gets through the armour, padding stops it. Samurai keeps on chopping. It happened to Tokugawa Ieyasu in his younger years.
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Honestly, having both played and run it as a GM, I disagree about it being very overpowered. In addition, I'm okay with the reloading rules not being completely accurate. Truthfully, spending five to six rounds reloading one weapon doesn't seem at all like fun for the player. I don't mind things having a certain realism aspect to it, but if I feel it gets in the way of players having fun, then I won't use it. And spending an entire battle reloading just isn't fun.
Actually ran a game with realistic firearm rules (except I did make them touch attack). What would happen is the players would open up with firearms/arbalests, then charge into melee/receive a charge or go magic. Really cool. They could use firerams in this Caribbean setting, but loading was out of the question.
So... they carried back-up pistols. The gunslinger class has an idea, it wants to take a long history of tech and make the guns into fast-loading weapons, which they were not in the matchlock/flintlock stage, so the player doesn't need multiple guns and can spam out those bullets. Just take more guns and the problem is never there. I recall a player did complain (most just went for it) about the loading speed, so I just went through it and explained how long this actually takes; fantasy doesn't mean you get to escape how long it actually takes to load (at least in my games). They also had to load a cannon to defeat a giant sea monster, that was an intense period of rounds.
Don't worry, I also get angry at crossbows being loaded too fast. Lol.
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I like gunslingers, but I do hate PF's firearm mechanics.
I've seen more than one crossbow-wielding Gunslinger variant, adn they all worked better than those sucky firearms.
For some reason, PF acts as if bows were the only decent ranged weapon ever. Even slings are better than crossbows! And crossbows are better than firearms.
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That's fine. I've seen many old firearm reenactments and can understand the reload time bothering you, but I can also understand why Paizo made the decision to lower the reload time.
In the end, as long as you tell your players before hand and, most importantly, they are still enjoying the game, then who are we to judge? It's really about everyone at the table having fun.
I like gunslingers, but I do hate PF's firearm mechanics.
I've seen more than one crossbow-wielding Gunslinger variant, adn they all worked better than those sucky firearms.
For some reason, PF acts as if bows were the only decent ranged weapon ever. Even slings are better than crossbows! And crossbows are better than firearms.
In my setting, throwing really took off. There are a lot of monsters with great strength, soldiers and war bands usually have great str, and the throwing weapons are easy to make.
"What is it Og?"
"It is a throwing spear, a sharp end on a stick."
"What is it Ogislaus?"
"It is a jarid, with a fine steel head on a haft."
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I'm not gonna lie, this is by far one of the most BUSTED classes I have ever had to deal with in Pathfinder, and it really does make me ill that I ever allowed it in my campaign to begin with.
What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).
I have to ask, is there ANY errata, or is this class just that damn good?
Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).
But yea...if anyone else understands this issues, please post your comments. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
Absolutely and utterly. Along with alchemists that make bombs so fast, without mixing any ingredients they actually buy, to create bombs that no one else can use. >:(
I recall one player was trying to allow me to put gunslingers into the game. I read them up a bit, laughed, said no.
The loading, yes I had a problem with the loading. The tech was matchlock, they do not load that fast, doesn't matter how fast your fingers are. I've watched Japanese matchlock arquebusiers (they were a visiting group to a festival) load and shoot (while wearing armour and on a field, very Sengoku influenced), and I've timed how long it...
Amen to this. I don't know why they made the gunslinger a cowboy. I don't know why his capstone is called "true grit". And I don't know how the hell anyone could get off a shot per second with a black powder musket when it took a trained soldier with a civil war era flintlock 20 seconds to load and fire a single round.
I wish they had made all gun mechanics similar to the Deadshot Deed where you end up doing more and more damage as your BAB scales but you're never actually shooting more than one bullet per round.
I hate gunslingers only because they cause so many threads like this one.
Well. Someone needs to take the heat off of monks. And synthesist summoners need the occasional vacation day like everyone else.
Gunslingers belong in an old-west game. Paizo made a bad call trying to draw players into their fantasy game with fast loading flintlocks. Or going crazy with some of the rules, so that they don't need to switch guns and prepare ahead like Blackbeard.
Desperate to please paizo. So desperate.
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I hate gunslingers only because they cause so many threads like this one.
This is the one exception to the "don't shoot the messenger" rule.
By all means. Find whoever keeps dragging this horse out of its coffin, and shoot them with the headsmack gun.
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Gunslingers belong in an old-west game. Paizo made a bad call trying to draw players into their fantasy game with fast loading flintlocks. Or going crazy with some of the rules, so that they don't need to switch guns and prepare ahead like Blackbeard.
Desperate to please paizo. So desperate.
Guess who doesn't have to include every single bit of released material in their game?
Nobody does.
So don't use it and get over it.
An orcish shotput will do Bruunwald.
Tri, the idea keeps cropping up. Americans are frequently obsessed with gun-culture after all so no surprise to see it in their cultural products. It doesn't mean it fits or fits well via new rules.
Gunslingers belong in an old-west game. Paizo made a bad call trying to draw players into their fantasy game with fast loading flintlocks. Or going crazy with some of the rules, so that they don't need to switch guns and prepare ahead like Blackbeard.
Desperate to please paizo. So desperate.
Guess who doesn't have to include every single bit of released material in their game?
Nobody does.
So don't use it and get over it.
You can get angry, but when too much is crammed into a setting, when something is put in that doesn't really belong or fit with the larger body, it is like a pustule, it leaks.
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A gunslinger can be more than just a cowboy. You can always refluff a class the way you like. I've seen pirate gunslingers, musketeer gunslingers, more 'colonial' style gunslingers, and even some based on Roland THE gunslinger. And is has nothing to do with gun obsession any more than wanting to play a fighter makes you obsessed with swords.
It's not desperate to add rules that you don't agree with. Some people like them. Some people don't. But don't start lumping us in some crazy, gun-toting stereotype and look down at us. As far as obsessed goes, we aren't the ones obsessing over reload time ;)
It is worthy of bad jokes.
The gunslinger loads so fast, you couldn't even describe in brief the loading process, in the time it takes them to load.
*I will probably not be here all week*
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I pretty much despise everything about gunslingers. The concept ignores the actual history of gunpowder to such an extent that it violates every precept of verisimilitude for me. It's like you made up a game and put laptop computers in them but nobody had yet invented the light bulb.
I recall explaining that Gunslingers weren't just in the old west earlier in this thread. So why is this coming up again?
Firearms in D&D/PF run amok into the problems of timekeeping in the system and the fact that AC is "You miss" not "You have DR."
There really isn't a way to fix them.
Only targeting touch AC means gunslingers get disproportionately more effective at higher levels when creatures get into single digit touch ACs.
wow...I made this thread MONTHS ago...I didn't even realize people were still responding to it. (go figure)
I pretty much despise everything about gunslingers. The concept ignores the actual history of gunpowder to such an extent that it violates every precept of verisimilitude for me. It's like you made up a game and put laptop computers in them but nobody had yet invented the light bulb.
That is a really funny and penetrating way of looking at it.
Blue star, in Odraude's recent examples of pre-wild west gunslingers from history, they could not spam bullets out of one gun and load their single shot firearms as a free action.
Pirates had multiple guns if they were wealthy, loved the melee. Infantry musketeers were in armies, took a long time to load and needed protection to do so (or cav or melee inf would engage them). The romantic notion of the French musketeer is more about swordplay and intrigue.
You can get angry, but when too much is crammed into a setting, when something is put in that doesn't really belong or fit with the larger body, it is like a pustule, it leaks.Gunslingers belong in an old-west game. Paizo made a bad call trying to draw players into their fantasy game with fast loading flintlocks. Or going crazy with some of the rules, so that they don't need to switch guns and prepare ahead like Blackbeard.
Desperate to please paizo. So desperate.
Guess who doesn't have to include every single bit of released material in their game?
Nobody does.
So don't use it and get over it.
I'm not angry. I'm not the one who's complaining. I like the gunslinger, and I like having as many options as possible, for a very good reason.
Sometimes I like to play one kind of game, and sometimes another. Sometimes I like pure sword & sorcery. I don't use guns in it. Sometimes I like high fantasy. No guns there, either. But sometimes, I like to play pirates. Pirates use guns. And our latest game is set during the American Revolution. Guns were there, so we need them.
I can't imagine that anybody is standing over you with a... well, a gun, and demanding that you either:
1. Play in a setting with guns.
or
2. Force guns into your setting.
Personally, I have never hitched myself to any particular "official" setting. But even if I did, I can't see a problem with removing or playing around them.
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You can get angry, but when too much is crammed into a setting, when something is put in that doesn't really belong or fit with the larger body, it is like a pustule, it leaks.Gunslingers belong in an old-west game. Paizo made a bad call trying to draw players into their fantasy game with fast loading flintlocks. Or going crazy with some of the rules, so that they don't need to switch guns and prepare ahead like Blackbeard.
Desperate to please paizo. So desperate.
Guess who doesn't have to include every single bit of released material in their game?
Nobody does.
So don't use it and get over it.
I'm not angry. I'm not the one who's complaining. I like the gunslinger, and I like having as many options as possible, for a very good reason.
Sometimes I like to play one kind of game, and sometimes another. Sometimes I like pure sword & sorcery. I don't use guns in it. Sometimes I like high fantasy. No guns there, either. But sometimes, I like to play pirates. Pirates use guns. And our latest game is set during the American Revolution. Guns were there, so we need them.
I can't imagine that anybody is standing over you with a... well, a gun, and demanding that you either:
1. Play in a setting with guns.
or
2. Force guns into your setting.
Personally, I have never hitched myself to any particular "official" setting. But even if I did, I can't see a problem with removing or playing around them.
I must admit, I loathe the idea of firearms in Golarion, or classic fantasy settings.
But I'd quite like to play a gunslinger sometime in a pirate setting. I don't hate the class, I just restrict it to what I think of as an appropriate setting.
But they sure look fun!
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I pretty much despise everything about gunslingers. The concept ignores the actual history of gunpowder to such an extent that it violates every precept of verisimilitude for me. It's like you made up a game and put laptop computers in them but nobody had yet invented the light bulb.
so your okay with a talking badger and a guy who wears a bathrobe and shoots fireballs with bat poop covered hands...but a a guy with a musket that is a "no go" for you?
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I pretty much despise everything about gunslingers. The concept ignores the actual history of gunpowder to such an extent that it violates every precept of verisimilitude for me. It's like you made up a game and put laptop computers in them but nobody had yet invented the light bulb.
Right, because Pathfinder is so similar to real life Earth and it's history.
The technology in Golarion is so heavily stunted because Magic is much easier to work with. What's the point of inventing better transports for cargo or insulation for a house when you can shove the whole of your bedroom into a Bag of Holding or cast Endure Elements on you and sleep through a snow storm? Why make better weapons when magic and magic-enchanted weapons do just fine?
And then there's Alkenstar, where magic doesn't work.
Since they can't just let magic do all the heavy lifting, they had to compensate by creating as much technology as possible as soon as possible to pick up the slack and keep them from getting killed by the local monsters. Guess what: guns tend to kill people a hell of a lot easier than a sword does, and the sword doesn't have magic around to keep it relevant. Melee weapons rapidly fall out of use in favor of the much easier to kill with firearms.
Seems like a reasonable backstory to me.
My hate for any class is shadowed by my hatred for other things.
The thing I hate the most is the sheer amount of incompetent DMs running around.
I don't know how spell component pouches work without getting all the butter, fine sand, and feathers mushed together. Nor do I know how a caster can riffle through that mess and pull out the right amount of the right thing and still have time to move 20-30 feet, wave his arms around, and say some words. And I won't even try to comprehend how someone can create a ball of fire the same size everyone else makes out of thin air and not suck all the air out of people's lungs. But since it's a game I suspend my disbelieve and play on.
That works for some things with some people, not for others. But I will say that this predicament makes me miss the 1 minute round.
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LOL, I forgot entirely about this thread. I love it whenever someone says "Well, this aspect of the game is troublesome for me because it makes no sense to me."
And the immediate response is "Dude! The game has frickin' DRAGONS in it! Dragons aren't real. Therefore your argument is invalid."
Sigh... Well, using that logic we may as well allow first level characters to carry around Federation matter/anti-matter converters so they can shoot planet-destroying lasers on demand. Got a problem with that?
Dude! The game has frickin' DRAGONS in it! Dragons aren't real. Therefore your argument is invalid.
LOL
Clearly a balance concern and a problem with "realism" (verisimilitude perhaps) are exactly the same thing.LOL, I forgot entirely about this thread. I love it whenever someone says "Well, this aspect of the game is troublesome for me because it makes no sense to me."
And the immediate response is "Dude! The game has frickin' DRAGONS in it! Dragons aren't real. Therefore your argument is invalid."
Sigh... Well, using that logic we may as well allow first level characters to carry around Federation matter/anti-matter converters so they can shoot planet-destroying lasers on demand. Got a problem with that?
Dude! The game has frickin' DRAGONS in it! Dragons aren't real. Therefore your argument is invalid.
LOL
Oh, so if the laser beam did d6+2 damage, then you'd be fine with it.
Gotcha.
Okay here's some things I always assumed with the fast reloading.
For some reason guns are ridiculously expensive in Pathfinder, and for some reason they are ridiculously easy to reload.
That's because you're not buying a freakishly expensive repeating pistol, you're buying 20 of them. The only other way to do it is to be in a western setting because only getting one attack every other round is absolutely terrible.
Oh, so if the laser beam did d6+2 damage, then you'd be fine with it.
Gotcha.
Aren't there laser guns in Numeria?
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I don't like Gunslingers because they really just don't fit fantasy games. Now if I ever run Steam Punk, then Gunslinger are great. I have nothing against the mechanics just the flavor. Because honestly in a Fantasy setting if you have guns it make no sense that you don't have at a minimum a steam punk era. Seriously, cannons should be in every seigemasters tool kit if they've been around long enough. By that I mean several decades after the discovery considering how world with magic work. Word would spread fast with teleport and long distance calling via scrying. As well the written word is much more established in realms of wizards. The secrets of gun powder would not be kept long.
My group's solution to Gunslingers is simple. We took the Gunslinger and renamed it the Crossbowman, removed abilities that only made sense with guns (cauterizing a wound with a hot barrel for instance). Guns are replaced with Crossbows but with new ranged increments. Basically, we turn crossbows into what they always should have been. Effective anti-armor weapons.
This also ends up being a buff to low level sorcerers and wizards, along with making clerics of Abadar and crossbow fighters feel better about their lives.
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I hate gunslingers with a passion. I feel that the class does too much damage and hits far too easily. In one too many adventures have I seen them one-shot the boss, or outclass everyone else in damage, fighters included. Now several of those battles we really needed that damage to live but it felt extremely cheesy waiting for the rapid shot, critical hits, secondary attacks, etc to finish up the remaining threats while everyone else transformed into tanks and healers because 90% of the damage output of the entire party was tied up in the gunslinger. This is across multiple parties of varying levels (mostly around 8-9th). I have seen archer fighters do their thing but it never came close to the stupidity that was the encounter ending gunslinger. Until I saw the class in play, I loved it. Now I cringe when I play with one because it means free and easy exp unless we are overrun with several foes instead of a few.
I agree with you the op. I passionately dislike the class in practice. I think it is OK on paper, though.
*Arise Thread, Arise!
Covent: *Brandishes Holy symbol of the great SKR while shouting* "Back to the depths foul beast! Back, Back!"
I LOVE the idea of guns in Pathfinder, but I really do think that if they are going to be used, they should be the primary weapons. There is a reason other weapons went out of fashion when they came along.When the primitive guns that Golarion's firearms are based on, came out, they did not immediately obsolete melee weapons or crossbows or bows. It actually took centuries for them to actually get as good as you're thinking of. Even in the revolutionary war, bayonets were commonly used because of the long reload times of single shot flintlocks. It's also why the Musketeers are primarily known for their swordwork. They'd get one shot off and then it was fencing time.
I LOVE the idea of guns in Pathfinder, but I really do think that if they are going to be used, they should be the primary weapons. There is a reason other weapons went out of fashion when they came along.Contrary to what you might think, it took centuries for firearms to displace what had been conventional weapons before hand. In the beginning they were extremely hard to use weapons, and almost as dangerous to the firer as they were to the target, with their occasional property of blowing up in the user's face.
Golarion's firearms aren't the highly developed weapons of the Wild West gunslinger. For the most part, they range from the primitive arquebus, to the less primitive flintlocks, to the very beginnings of multi-round weapons. The most primitive Colt pistol is more advanced than the best guns of Alkenstar.
I'm getting the strangest sense of Deja Vu...
What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).
I really don't see what's so bad about someone finding a cool combination of deeds and feats. If they can use it, don't prevent them from it. Also, the gunslinger is just as vulnerable when he's out of ammo or if he's in melee.
Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).
Unless he's wielding pepperboxes, he cannot reload unless he has a free hand, meaning no TWF every round unless he spend one or two rounds to reload.
Then again, he could also use 2 pistols of the infinite sky... or somehow tricked you at enhancing his pistols with the endless ammunition enhaqncement, even though you cannot apply it to firearms... and even though it could be done since a bow's or crossbow's nocking could easily be substituted be pulling back a firearm's flintlock mecanism.