Does Anyone Else Hate Gunslingers


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I'm not gonna lie, this is by far one of the most BUSTED classes I have ever had to deal with in Pathfinder, and it really does make me ill that I ever allowed it in my campaign to begin with.

What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).

I have to ask, is there ANY errata, or is this class just that damn good?

Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).

But yea...if anyone else understands this issues, please post your comments. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.


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I LOVE the idea of guns in Pathfinder, but I really do think that if they are going to be used, they should be the primary weapons. There is a reason other weapons went out of fashion when they came along. That said, my issue with the gunslinger are more flavor than mechanical. If I am going to have guns in a campaign, everyone should have them.


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What if we don't have those issues? Because I think the class works just fine and still comes out only even with the fighter when it comes to damage (if even) -- this only if you use the two weapon fighting with two pistols and every trick you can come up with to reload as quickly as possible with no hands free.


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I really do not see the problem with the gunslinger, he doesn't seem overpowered at all. In fact he brings again one of the things I most love from 3.x/PF, the different mechanics between classes.

Talking about flavor, I really love to play a Roland Deschain's character.

Shadow Lodge

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I have yet to have any problem with the gunslinger class in any of my games. If anything, I have found their damage output to be slightly lower than other ranged classes. I'm wondering, are your problems coming from an actual game, or are you just basing your opinion on a read through? A lot of options sound very powerful on paper, but are only marginally so in play.

Grand Lodge

I have a Gunslinger in PFS and it just isn't anything near that powerful.

By 11th level I expect most classes to be dishing out amazing amounts of damage. They are becoming world renowned heroes at that point, so they shouldn't be dealing wimpy amounts of damage.

A quick look and numerically the damage output should be on par with Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues of that level. If you min/max and just straight out optimize for damage output for any class you get amazing broken effects.

But also remember for every character that is optimized there are usually some pretty dramatic weaknesses as well.


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Somehow I get the feeling that this guy's Gunslinger is the resident optimizer while the other players are a bit more casual. I'm getting vibes that the rest of the party just aren't quite on the same level, which isn't going to come from the Gunslinger's mechanical frame itself.


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Me thinks someone has never seen a Zen Archer in action. Forget guns. The little old man with strong arms and years of wisdom is crushing the orc army from a hundreds yards out.


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TarkXT wrote:
Me thinks someone has never seen a Zen Archer in action. Forget guns. The little old man with strong arms and years of wisdom is crushing the orc army from a hundreds yards out.

Why does this post make me envision Tung Fu Rue (from Fatal Fury) hulking out?


Hahahahahahahahahaha. Is it april fools already?

Oh no! A level 11 ability can be made powerful by spending a finite resource! It's almost as if we are 73-91% through the level range that is normally seen in games!

And yet they still suck compared to an archer.

The only overpowered ability they have is Targeting. Lightning Reload just lets them be relevant.


The main difference between a Fighter and a Gunslinger, in my opinion, is that you really 3 good stats: DEX, CON, and WIS. Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma are all dump stats, and yet the three I listed also happen to pertain to how well you can make your saves (Reflex, Fortitude, and Will).

So therefore, you get to max out a lot of your defensive stats, while still benefiting from offensive class features as well.

Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.

And finally, dual wielding pistols is almost too easy when you use things like Weapon Cords. After all, you can basically use the Signature Deed combined with Lightning Reload to reload BOTH guns during your turn and STILL fire a weapon (seeing as how dropping one weapon is a FREE action...then reloading the other weapon is a FREE action...then retrieving the dropped weapon on the weapon cord is a SWIFT action...then dropping the other weapon is another FREE action...then reloading it is just ANOTHER FREE ACTION...which means that you can STILL fire with your primary hand even after reloading all that crap...and you can fire FULL ROUND no less...then afterwards...on your next turn you basically use your swift to retrieve your other gun and go to town).

And let us not forget...they also get 2 good saves and a lot of skill points to use as well :P


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So you're saying the gunslinger can remain somewhat relevant, have fun, and contribute to the party without running into crossbow syndrome?

Sounds good to me.


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A fighter almost never misses. So that's a moot point. The fighter also does more damage a hit. The fighter also has more feats that he can -- you know actually spend on things other than not sucking.

The fighter can dump Intelligence and Charisma just fine, and his archetypes are just plain better.

And again he can do more damage without really trying.

You do realize that with your weapon cord theory you're not getting that many shots? I'm suggesting using gloves of storing instead so you can get all the two weapon fighting shots you can -- heck I also suggest getting two double barrel pistols while you are at it...

you're going to need them.

Not to be a jerk or anything but I would really suggest looking up some of the DPR Olympic threads around here and possibly even some of the old threads from the play tests and right after the release of Ultimate combat -- we ran the math really hard at that point in time and consistently proved that the gunslinger will do no more damage than a fighter of the same level, and even then only by spending everything he has into getting where the fighter could be much easier.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy wrote:

Hahahahahahahahahaha. Is it april fools already?

Oh no! A level 11 ability can be made powerful by spending a finite resource! It's almost as if we are 73-91% through the level range that is normally seen in games!

If it's more powerful than a 1st level option, it MUST be broken!


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Duskblade wrote:
Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.

You should probably take a look through the DPR olympics threads. Last I looked, Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians were all well ahead of Gunslinger in damage numbers. The class isn't really broken at all. It stays viable through the game, but still has some annoying aspects to it (like misfires) to keep it even. Want to talk about broken? Look at a min-maxed fighter using a Falcata and tell me Gunslinger is still broken.


Doggan wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.
You should probably take a look through the DPR olympics threads. Last I looked, Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians were all well ahead of Gunslinger in damage numbers. The class isn't really broken at all. It stays viable through the game, but still has some annoying aspects to it (like misfires) to keep it even. Want to talk about broken? Look at a min-maxed fighter using a Falcata and tell me Gunslinger is still broken.

This, pretty much. My issue with the gunslinger is flavor, as I mentioned above, not mechanical. The class itself is fairly balanced.


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A level 7 gunslinger can trip Treerazer just by hitting him. No save or anything. That's the broken bit.

Sovereign Court

I thought you couldn't use Deadly Aim on touch attacks?

PRD wrote:

Deadly Aim (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Did Gunslingers get a special pass on that particular feat somewhere? I haven't actually taken the time to really give the class a good looking over.

On another side not, did the GM not read the section about how they can say how many free actions a character can take?

PRD wrote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

If your the GM you can just put a limit on how many free actions they can take before you think it gets too silly.


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I've lived in the military my entire life, so I can say im a gun fanatic. That said, I like Paizo's approach to guns as "emerging". It's not something everyone has, and (like in real life in those 'times') there isn't a clear advantage of a gun over a bow. Guns, for those who DO have them, will often be things like a Scattergun or Blunderbuss: guns that usually hit regardless of how good you are with them.

The gunslinger is a nice try at bringing the wild west into Pathfinder, but it doesn't impress me. Wizards, Rangers, and Paladins will still be doing most of the butt-kicking. I personally think guns fit in more as back-up weapons for wizards (intircate weapon for an intricate man) or rogues (intricate weapon for a cunning rogue).

Are they nice to have in Pathfinder? yes
Are they meant to be your main weapon? no

Edit: Or for Inquisitors (intricate weapon for kick-ass monster hunters) ^_^ Think Solomon Kane


Duskblade wrote:

I'm not gonna lie, this is by far one of the most BUSTED classes I have ever had to deal with in Pathfinder, and it really does make me ill that I ever allowed it in my campaign to begin with.

What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).

I have to ask, is there ANY errata, or is this class just that damn good?

Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).

But yea...if anyone else understands this issues, please post your comments. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.

I had a gunslinger in my game. It was ok, but nothing special.

They still have to take the ranged feats to ignore shooting into melee, and soft cover. Well they don't have to, but they will miss more. They still have to deal with misfires.

They also only get to use touch AC within a certain range or they have to use grit points.

Being that close just make you can easy target. I am still more worried about the guy with a bow who is not always withing charging distance.


Vinland Forever wrote:
Doggan wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.
You should probably take a look through the DPR olympics threads. Last I looked, Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians were all well ahead of Gunslinger in damage numbers. The class isn't really broken at all. It stays viable through the game, but still has some annoying aspects to it (like misfires) to keep it even. Want to talk about broken? Look at a min-maxed fighter using a Falcata and tell me Gunslinger is still broken.
This, pretty much. My issue with the gunslinger is flavor, as I mentioned above, not mechanical. The class itself is fairly balanced.

Grit is a really cool mechanic that I hope is given to some other classes in archetypes.

You mean there is now an in-game incentive to hopping on a raging wyvern's back, shooting it in the head to kill it, and while riding the wyvern on its death spiral, hop off the dead one onto another wyvern?

Hell, I was gonna do that before grit came along, if I figured I'd have a great chance of survival. Now? there's an incentive other than "it's cool!" to do it. Makes such situations come up a lot more often.


If anyone can provide me some links to some of these DPR Olympic threads I really would appreciate it. Again, I am very grateful for everyone's input.


Duskblade wrote:

The main difference between a Fighter and a Gunslinger, in my opinion, is that you really 3 good stats: DEX, CON, and WIS. Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma are all dump stats, and yet the three I listed also happen to pertain to how well you can make your saves (Reflex, Fortitude, and Will).

So therefore, you get to max out a lot of your defensive stats, while still benefiting from offensive class features as well.

Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.

And finally, dual wielding pistols is almost too easy when you use things like Weapon Cords. After all, you can basically use the Signature Deed combined with Lightning Reload to reload BOTH guns during your turn and STILL fire a weapon (seeing as how dropping one weapon is a FREE action...then reloading the other weapon is a FREE action...then retrieving the dropped weapon on the weapon cord is a SWIFT action...then dropping the other weapon is another FREE action...then reloading it is just ANOTHER FREE ACTION...which means that you can STILL fire with your primary hand even after reloading all that crap...and you can fire FULL ROUND no less...then afterwards...on your next turn you basically use your swift to retrieve your other gun and go to town).

And let us not forget...they also get 2 good saves and a lot of skill points to use as well :P

Lightning Reload only works once a round, even with Signature Deed. To full attack consistently the gunslinger must spend money on alchemical (paper) cartridges.


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Duskblade wrote:

The main difference between a Fighter and a Gunslinger, in my opinion, is that you really 3 good stats: DEX, CON, and WIS. Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma are all dump stats, and yet the three I listed also happen to pertain to how well you can make your saves (Reflex, Fortitude, and Will).

So therefore, you get to max out a lot of your defensive stats, while still benefiting from offensive class features as well.

Another big difference is that the Gunslinger almost NEVER misses. I mean, the only way a Fighter can compare to that kind of raw damage output (which is basically a guaranteed damaged output) is to make sure that they always crit.

And finally, dual wielding pistols is almost too easy when you use things like Weapon Cords. After all, you can basically use the Signature Deed combined with Lightning Reload to reload BOTH guns during your turn and STILL fire a weapon (seeing as how dropping one weapon is a FREE action...then reloading the other weapon is a FREE action...then retrieving the dropped weapon on the weapon cord is a SWIFT action...then dropping the other weapon is another FREE action...then reloading it is just ANOTHER FREE ACTION...which means that you can STILL fire with your primary hand even after reloading all that crap...and you can fire FULL ROUND no less...then afterwards...on your next turn you basically use your swift to retrieve your other gun and go to town).

And let us not forget...they also get 2 good saves and a lot of skill points to use as well :P

I'm not sure if you would be interested, but if you don't like the PF Gunslinger and the gun mechanics behind them, you can use the free Heroes of Alvena Gunslinger which was written up as an comparison class during the playtest and developed into its own class, and comes with gun mechanics that are set to be balanced alongside existing core options.

The damage output of the class was compared to a core archery Fighter, and generally the archery Fighter comes out ahead of in terms of damage due to being able to stack Strength, specialization, and similar abilities, while the gunslinger focuses on slower shots for greater damage, critical fishing, or various trick-shots and mobility. Includes shotgun options for melee gunslingers who are all about tearing up things at short range, and abilities that are for sniper-style builds as well.

It uses a mechanic known as grit, but it is a resource which the gunslinger expends with certain abilities, and regains by using other abilities. In essence it becomes difficult to spam abilities repeatedly with the exception of the basic Deadeye Shot, Rolling Shot, which aren't very impressive past the lowest of levels (Deadeye shot is a single ranged touch attack vs touch AC with some bonus damage as you progress, but it will never match anything resembling a full-attack, for example). As grit is expended and regained, you can track it using a d12 (maximum grit is generally 2 + 1/2 gunslinger level).

Even if you dislike the class, you may find the gun mechanics a bit more to your liking. They are simple weapons (with basic pistols and muskets being competitively priced, with revolvers and rifles being more expensive and suited for adventurers) which improve if you have the Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Firearms) and Rapid Reload (the Exotic Proficiency unlocks their improved critical hit chances and lowers their reload time to 1 shot per move action, and rapid reload makes it 1 shot per swift action). You may also purchase quick-load cylinders or cartridges which allow your gun-toting fellows to remain viable vs traditional weapon full-attacks later on, as you can swap a quick-load cylinder or cartridge as if you were reloading a single shot.

Because of the way guns are presented, they may be used by most classes. You do not need some bizarre archtype to have a bard or wizard who keeps a black-thunder weapon on their belt, and can freely have Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and so forth use such weaponry if you're going for that sort of feel. Since without the exotic proficiency they are comparable to crossbows in terms of their utility, they are an easy side-arm or backup weapon for NPCs. It's helpful when dealing with a swashbuckling campaign (sword in one hand and a pistol in the other).

The booklet also includes black powder alchemical items, including rules for creating bombs, and for combining bombs to make larger explosions (there are diminishing returns, as it takes progressively larger amounts of black powder to create a wider and more destructive blast). Alchemists may enjoy these new grenade-like weapons.

In addition, there are also bayonettes, ammo belts, as well as a number of feats which you may or may not find suitable for your game. If you'd like to consider adding a bit of swashbuckling action by the light of a thunderous fire to your game, but the Pathfinder gunslinger and firearm rules aren't doing it for you, these might.


Duskblade wrote:
If anyone can provide me some links to some of these DPR Olympic threads I really would appreciate it. Again, I am very grateful for everyone's input.

I second this heartidly. I've never been to the DPR olympics :D


Compared to a bow user, gun slingers damage doesnt come close.

-add str from comp bow

-deadly aim

-depending on class(bow training and weapon spec, favored enemies, smite, judgements)

-dex to damage(if agile is allowed)

-rapid shot + many shot

-free reload with no feat tax

-150 arrows = 1 metal cart. bullet gold wise

-Shoots further as well

-Hammer the gap (5 attacks at level 11) possible 15 extra damage

-Full Attack without need of weapon cords and or a third arm.

-a feat can also get the does not provoke AoOs from firing in melee

Sounds to me like you just kinda be hate'n on guns


For those with no search-fu, I found the original DPR Olympics thread by typing "DPR Olympics" into the search messageboard box on the left side of the thread, beside Abraham's first post. I then set it for "messageboards". Here's the relevant link:

DPR Olympics

There are several other such threads, I'd search under the Advice section of the Messageboards, I think they're in there. I'm not going to do all the work for you :p


Duskblade wrote:
If anyone can provide me some links to some of these DPR Olympic threads I really would appreciate it. Again, I am very grateful for everyone's input.

DPR thread

edit:I have it in my bookmarks and this is the most commonly used one.


Hmm, this actually might lead me to an interesting question: as I understand it, Manyshot seems to trigger the extra damage from 'Hammer the Gap'...so my question is: would this same logic apply to a Double Barreled Pistol?


Duskblade wrote:
Hmm, this actually might lead me to an interesting question: as I understand it, Manyshot seems to trigger the extra damage from 'Hammer the Gap'...so my question is: would this same logic apply to a Double Barreled Pistol?

Manyshot is one attack roll so the arrows hit at once not consecutively which would be one behind the other. It seems a double barrled pistol and even a double crossbow would have the same limitation.


Good question,

Id say yes on the thought that the bullets leaving each barrel probably aren't going to be traveling the exact same speed and thus reaching the target at slightly different times (mind you not much of a time difference) and the fact you still have to hit with each bullet.


StealthElite wrote:

Good question,

Id say yes on the thought that the bullets leaving each barrel probably aren't going to be traveling the exact same speed and thus reaching the target at slightly different times (mind you not much of a time difference) and the fact you still have to hit with each bullet.

In real life I would agree, but the game does not measure ammo speed. Things like angle of the barrel and wind resistance are not accounted for.


The wording for the double barrel pistol is different from many shot though. you make separate attacks

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel
barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate
action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the
same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly
inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

2 attacks

as apposed to many shot

Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow,
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both
arrows hit
. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak
attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack.
Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high
Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage
bonuses, such as a ranger’s favored enemy bonus. Damage
reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

1 attack


StealthElite wrote:

The wording for the double barrel pistol is different from many shot though. you make separate attacks

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel
barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate
action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the
same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly
inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

2 attacks

as apposed to many shot

Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow,
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both
arrows hit
. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak
attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack.
Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high
Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage
bonuses, such as a ranger’s favored enemy bonus. Damage
reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

1 attack

Thanks. In that case I agree with you. I took the other poster's word that the pistol worked like manyshot.

note to self:look things up next time.


StealthElite wrote:

The wording for the double barrel pistol is different from many shot though. you make separate attacks

Pistol, Double-Barreled: This pistol has two parallel
barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate
action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the
same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly
inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.

2 attacks

as apposed to many shot

Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow,
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both
arrows hit
. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak
attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack.
Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high
Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage
bonuses, such as a ranger’s favored enemy bonus. Damage
reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.

1 attack

So are you suggesting that 'Hammer the Gap' bonus damage would apply for a double barreled pistol and not the manyshot feat...or vice versa. On a side note, this is what hammer the gap does...

When you take a full-attack action, each consecutive hit against the same opponent deals extra damage equal to the number of previous consecutive hits you have made against that opponent this turn. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

From what I can tell, you are DEFINITELY hitting with two separate attacks when firing a double barreled pistol (as you are basically rolling 2 attack dice). If the damage from Hammer the Gap can stack this way, then we are talking about an INSANE amount of damage for dual wielding double barreled pistols at later levels (assuming you can reload them of course).

Thanks to the input by Abraham spalding, I really am leaning towards the idea of using a Glove of Storing for my Gunslinger (contrary to any misconceptions, I actually play a gunslinger and I rather enjoy it...but when I DM...I just find them incredibly frustrating...not sure why though...lol). If anyone can help give me good advice for dual wielding Double barreled pistols now, that would be great (currently i'm just gonna use a single weapon cord and a glove of storing).

Anywho, back on topic, if someone can provide more clarification for the 'hammer the gap' and 'double barreled pistol' debate..that would be great.


Quote:
If the attack hits, both arrows hit.

It is two hits, but only one attack.

An attack consist of an attack roll. The number of hits is not tied to the number of attacks.


Lol Im totally picturing a character with quick draw and 20 double barrel pistols

kind of like Dillinger Meryl from trigun

Dark Archive

Duskblade wrote:

I'm not gonna lie, this is by far one of the most BUSTED classes I have ever had to deal with in Pathfinder, and it really does make me ill that I ever allowed it in my campaign to begin with.

What I currently have issues with, specifically, is the Signature Deed ability combined with Lightning Reload, which effectively allows a gunslinger to reload their gun as a FREE action with a single barrel weapon that does NOT provoke attacks of opportunity. Combined with other crazy ranged feats like Rapid Shot (or joy...a -2 penalty on a range TOUCH attack...what a penalty), and the 'Deadly Aim' feat. I mean, sweet Jesus, I have never seen anything so stupid before in my life. And to add even MORE insult to injury, the archtype known as the Pistolero just makes things even more ridiculous (Up Close and Deadly and Pistol Training make the friggin damage of this class simply INSANE).

I have to ask, is there ANY errata, or is this class just that damn good?

Moreover, is anyone else having issues with this class (I mean, hell...imagine a Pistolero DUAL WIELDING their weapons...which only gives them a -4 penalty of course...but who cares...they are shooting with RANGED TOUCH ATTACKS with a FULL BaB AND they have an insane amount of DEX).

But yea...if anyone else understands this issues, please post your comments. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.

I like the class. Just be lucky (or keep the gold limit down in your game) that they have not seen this spell.

Reloading Hands
School conjuration (creation); Level magus 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT
Range touch
Target projectile weapon touched
Duration 1 round/caster level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

DESCRIPTION
Once per round, phantom hands load a single ranged weapon or firearm with conjured ammunition. This ammunition counts as magical for overcoming damage reduction and attacking incorporeal creatures, but is the standard for its type (a normal bullet or pellets and black powder in the case of firearms). Conjured ammunition ceases to exist 1 round after it is removed from the weapon, or at the end of the duration, whichever comes first.

A guy in our higher level game (13th level / Pistolero Gunslinger) made a pair of intelligent ioun stones that could cast a 2nd level spell at will. lol Any guesses as to what spell he picked and then attached them to his guns.

I like the ideas of guns in the game because i love Corsair type (pirate maybe?) games and the whole swashbuckler, swing on a rope boarding party, cannons and pistol smoke halo with swords is a fantastic image for me.


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Gunslinger is banned in my games, but the reasons are not so much balance, as the very idea of a class that uses guns. No thanks, in my fantasy games that are without guns.


Roman wrote:
Gunslinger is banned in my games, but the reasons are not so much balance, as the very idea of a class that uses guns. No thanks, in my fantasy games that are without guns.

Remind me not to play in your fantasy :P


I like guns as much as fireballs and alchemical items.

Shadow Lodge

I don't hate guns or gunslingers, I just find the mechanics too much of a headache to deal with yet.


We've yet to use the class, but I personally like the grit mechanic and a fighter with a WIS component is cool since I think it would seem that common sense is a very martial type of thing.

We've used primitive firearms for years intermittently.

I don't know how I feel about the touch AC thing.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm afraid i cannot offer anything terribly constructive. Last feb I tried play testing the class. In the play tests i didn't find the class to over powered.

While I am familiar with the basics of the class, I am not aware of the intricacies of the gunslinger in the UC.

For reasons of personal taste, In my home games, I have banned the optional gunslinger class, and the optional rules concerning guns. I know there are guns in Alkenstar, but with the "kitchen sink" approach of Golarion, i can take what i want and leave the rest....(guns).

Only twice have i had players asking if they could use guns. once in Sept of 09, when we were just beginning to run Curse of the Crimson Throne, with the new Pathfinder rules, a player had spotted the guns in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. I said no. Another time, a player had expressed excitement over the gunslinger, i think this was sometime this july, and I informed him that i didn't want guns in my campaign. I know some people might say i was "stepping" on my players creativity, but as a GM, i get to make descisions about what I want in and out of my game. When these players are GMing, they can decide what they want in their games.

I also run weekly Pathfinder Organized Play game in my local gaming store. If someone brought a Gunslinger in, i would ask to see his copy of the UC, (I keep mine at home Its one less book to carry) read over the gunslinger, and ill ask him to share with me what is the character build and what he is planning. So far no gunslingers have shown up.

Now the two players who asked, were both teenagers. Perhaps I'm now the "old man" shaking my fist in frustration and yelling "you kids get those guns off of my lawn".
I guess with lots of people playing wow, and maybe with the influence of Animae, and movies like "the pirates of the Carribean" people have grown to accept guns in thier campaigns.

In time gunslingers and guns may be come as common as monks. I remember grumping about them when they were re introduced in 3.0

So while i don't have anything constructive to offer i hope this helps


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I'm ambivalent about gunslingers in particular. I don't see anything inherently broken with the gunslinger as a whole - I raise an eyebrow at the pistelero archetype, though. I don't permit gunslingers in my games at the moment, however. While I think guns are a good fit in fantasy, I also prefer good ol' fashioned swords, hammers and fireballs.

What I do permit is the spellslinger. There's a very... scientific feel to guns, in my opinion, and I might be stereotyping slightly but I can imagine a "modern-esque" wizard creating the guns in Pathfinder. I've allowed them in my games, and I'm glad I have. Go go Professor Cain and your Kobold Riflemen Brigade.

Good times.


Having just started a Serpent's Skull adventure, I opened up the Recruitment to gunslingers specifically. Yes, it's an "Pirates of the Caribbean" atmosphere, but I was going for that person who would apply being the only person in the campaign with a gun. The "Guns are Rare" option.

The catch with the gunslinger being in a campaign comes back to the Adventure Path and crafting. Guns are not slingshots that you can put any old spherical ball into and have it work. So the gunslinger has to put a lot of points into crafting as well, and carry the tools to make roundballs or buckshot or Minié ball with him/her. Crafting takes time, just like a wizard with a spellbook or a caster making a wand. Time that may not be in the Adventure Path unless the players make time. That's why I was willing to open the campaign up to the class.

I see it like the anime movie Princess Mononoke, where the protagonist is an archer/swordsman who must trace a musket ball back to the person who killed a forest god with it. Arquebus were in Japan in 1543. So our high-fantasy Golarion isn't too far off, in my opinion.

Sovereign Court

Yes I hate Gunslingers, particularily the attacking touch AC mechanic that damages my feel of versimilitude while playing. I have nothing against guns in fantasy, just the class.

I don't really like to go on about it though, I don't have to deal with it in games I run and if other people like the class I see no reason to rant about it on a forum.

Shadow Lodge

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One of the worst ideas I've seen spouted in the gaming community is that we must hold our games to some realistic ideal.

I say thee, nay. This is fantasy, and fantasy can be anything.

Ban things you don't like, not things that are historically inaccurate.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Duskblade wrote:
If anyone can provide me some links to some of these DPR Olympic threads I really would appreciate it. Again, I am very grateful for everyone's input.

To Hades with the DPR threads. After seeing gunslingers in actual PFS play as opposed to nerdrage armchair theorycrafting, I don't see anything to scream about balance-wise, at least in the 1st to 3rd level range that I've witnessed so far. Aesthetics problems in your world I can understand, in Golarian, I don't see it.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:

To Hades with the DPR threads. After seeing gunslingers in actual PFS play as opposed to nerdrage armchair theorycrafting, I don't see anything to scream about balance-wise, at least in the 1st to 3rd level range that I've witnessed so far. Aesthetics problems in your world I can understand, in Golarian, I don't see it.

yeah i can guarantee you that gunslingers are not broken. if anything they are the most balanced class in this game. but in terms of skill, damage, and even utility for group dynamic there is way better to choose from.

now on a personal note i will admit that you wont see me playing one... ever. it make no sense to me that guns would have even been invented in this world. magic is a common place, not to mention vastly superior to mundane guns, archery is 100 times better as far as damage, range, and cost. lets not forget how CRAPPY early guns were, you would be lucky not to have your bullet spin down and hit the floor 10 feet in front of you.

guns should never have been introduced to this game simply because of how inferior they are to currently existing means of fighting.

mighty composite long bow +2 = 1d8 +2 while a musket is a d12 in terms of damage the bow and arrow is equal the best gun you can buy... i just dont see how this technology would have caught on.

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