If an alchemist take the Heavy Armor Proficiency, does he suffer an arcane spell failure chance when wearing plate mail?
No. They do not cast arcane spells.
Ok then. This class is even better than I originally thought.
Well, yes he does, but I really wouldn't call it suffering, since it's not exactly like making or drinking a potion is affected by it. Throwing bombs is likewise unaffected.
It seems the most effective build for this class is a heavily armored bomb thrower.
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It seems the most effective build for this class is a heavily armored bomb thrower.
You have no ideal how powerful a Heavy armored Bomber Alchemist is.
I have one in my party, and even thought the player is a newbie(The Alchemist was made by another player who left the game.), she is easily the MVP in the game.Her AC is so high, she can throw bombs at point-blank range with a good chance the AOO won't hit her. Her bombs are touch attacks and they hit even when she rolls low. With one of her discoveries she can avoid up to 3 squares with her bombs and her bombs BURN the enemy.
All in all, with her in the party, the AOE DPS we have is staggering against almost anyone.
I have house ruled, that you cannot use mutagen in Heavy Armor. I like the idea of an alchemist in armor, and in fact I think it should be encouraged. I just don't like the mutagen aspect + armor. If you use the mutagen the armor gets the broken condition. If for some reason you are growing smaller you get the entangled condition.
I would love to see a Treantmonk-like guide that discussed them.
I would love to see a Treantmonk-like guide that discussed them.
0gre's Guide does that.
I would love to see a Treantmonk-like guide that discussed them.
Never read that one. But he wrote this soon before he started freelancing for Paizo. So probably?
I have house ruled, that you cannot use mutagen in Heavy Armor. I like the idea of an alchemist in armor, and in fact I think it should be encouraged. I just don't like the mutagen aspect + armor. If you use the mutagen the armor gets the broken condition. If for some reason you are growing smaller you get the entangled condition.
Huh. Seems to me, then, that you ought to also houserule that armor is broken when somebody is polymorphed, or increased in size, or is lost when somebody is shrunk.
Otherwise, the fact that the alchemist must use two whole feats to be able to use the armor effectively seems like enough of a sacrifice without nerfing it further.
Mutagens are a class feature. Being able to use them in armor after paying two feats seems no different than a wizard using the Arcane Armor Tree to be able to cast in armor.
take a level of Gun tank just to be awesome, and not burn a feat.
Or take a lv in fighter to gain much more. Seriously, 1 lv in fighter gives proficiency with heavy armor (along with medium armor of course), martial weapons, shields (including tower shields) AND a bonus combat feat. Sounds pretty good for a 1 lv dip if you're just going for the proficiencies, even if you don't use some of the stuff.
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take a level of Gun tank just to be awesome, and not burn a feat.Or take a lv in fighter to gain much more. Seriously, 1 lv in fighter gives proficiency with heavy armor (along with medium armor of course), martial weapons, shields (including tower shields) AND a bonus combat feat. Sounds pretty good for a 1 lv dip if you're just going for the proficiencies, even if you don't use some of the stuff.
OR you could be a gun tank.
I have house ruled, that you cannot use mutagen in Heavy Armor. I like the idea of an alchemist in armor, and in fact I think it should be encouraged. I just don't like the mutagen aspect + armor. If you use the mutagen the armor gets the broken condition. If for some reason you are growing smaller you get the entangled condition.
Huh. Seems to me, then, that you ought to also houserule that armor is broken when somebody is polymorphed, or increased in size, or is lost when somebody is shrunk.
Otherwise, the fact that the alchemist must use two whole feats to be able to use the armor effectively seems like enough of a sacrifice without nerfing it further.
Mutagens are a class feature. Being able to use them in armor after paying two feats seems no different than a wizard using the Arcane Armor Tree to be able to cast in armor.
The reason I don't is because polymorph can magically transform the armor with the character. From PFSRD: Unless the new form is humanoid, all gear merges into the form. Constant bonuses (except AC) remain. Activation items can't be activated. Material components are not accessible while merged into the form.
Mutagen does not say that anywhere. Therefore I won't allow it, simply because it bothers me and it is one of the things that is easy to house rule away.
So if a player wanted to take those feats, I would warn him ahead of time, I completely agree with you on the feat cost.
I have house ruled, that you cannot use mutagen in Heavy Armor. I like the idea of an alchemist in armor, and in fact I think it should be encouraged. I just don't like the mutagen aspect + armor. If you use the mutagen the armor gets the broken condition. If for some reason you are growing smaller you get the entangled condition.
Huh. Seems to me, then, that you ought to also houserule that armor is broken when somebody is polymorphed, or increased in size, or is lost when somebody is shrunk.
Otherwise, the fact that the alchemist must use two whole feats to be able to use the armor effectively seems like enough of a sacrifice without nerfing it further.
Mutagens are a class feature. Being able to use them in armor after paying two feats seems no different than a wizard using the Arcane Armor Tree to be able to cast in armor.
The reason I don't is because polymorph can magically transform the armor with the character. From PFSRD: Unless the new form is humanoid, all gear merges into the form. Constant bonuses (except AC) remain. Activation items can't be activated. Material components are not accessible while merged into the form.
Mutagen does not say that anywhere. Therefore I won't allow it, simply because it bothers me and it is one of the things that is easy to house rule away.
So if a player wanted to take those feats, I would warn him ahead of time, I completely agree with you on the feat cost.
Do you rule the same thing for Bull's Strength? Because that makes you bulkier and enhances your physical prowess as well.
Do you rule the same thing for Bull's Strength? Because that makes you bulkier and enhances your physical prowess as well.I have house ruled, that you cannot use mutagen in Heavy Armor. I like the idea of an alchemist in armor, and in fact I think it should be encouraged. I just don't like the mutagen aspect + armor. If you use the mutagen the armor gets the broken condition. If for some reason you are growing smaller you get the entangled condition.
Huh. Seems to me, then, that you ought to also houserule that armor is broken when somebody is polymorphed, or increased in size, or is lost when somebody is shrunk.
Otherwise, the fact that the alchemist must use two whole feats to be able to use the armor effectively seems like enough of a sacrifice without nerfing it further.
Mutagens are a class feature. Being able to use them in armor after paying two feats seems no different than a wizard using the Arcane Armor Tree to be able to cast in armor.
The reason I don't is because polymorph can magically transform the armor with the character. From PFSRD: Unless the new form is humanoid, all gear merges into the form. Constant bonuses (except AC) remain. Activation items can't be activated. Material components are not accessible while merged into the form.
Mutagen does not say that anywhere. Therefore I won't allow it, simply because it bothers me and it is one of the things that is easy to house rule away.
So if a player wanted to take those feats, I would warn him ahead of time, I completely agree with you on the feat cost.
I just checked the rules and Bull's strength doesn't say anything against growing bulkier, though I only have the pfsrd at hand right now. If it is in the Core Rules that Bull's strength makes you bulkier I will reconsider. Can you cite a page for me if you have the time? I can't find that in the SRD.
That said I do not consider it the same as a mage using the arcane armor tree. The dynamics are very different. One is learning how to do something, the other is breaking a barrier.
I think the point is that its a transmutation spell, and thus it changes your body. If it doesn't add bulk and muscles, how do you think it grants a bonus to strength?I just checked the rules and Bull's strength doesn't say anything against growing bulkier, though I only have the pfsrd at hand right now. If it is in the Core Rules that Bull's strength makes you bulkier I will reconsider. Can you cite a page for me if you have the time? I can't find that in the SRD.
That said I do not consider it the same as a mage using the arcane armor tree. The dynamics are very different. One is learning how to do something, the other is breaking a barrier.
Ding ding ding.
If the answer is "Magic." well, that's what the Mutagen is as well. The mutagen doesn't actually change your size or anything (unless you're a master chymist), and the whole class was balanced around the fact that some alchemists would be wearing armor and using mutagen. This is such an obvious observation and consequence of the class that I highly doubt it never occurred to the designer.
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to make a FAQ post.
What do you do if they increase their constitution or dexterity mournblade?
I can kind of see an argument for Strength bulking you up. But I can't see an argument at all for the constitution or dexterity versions.
I think the point is that its a transmutation spell, and thus it changes your body. If it doesn't add bulk and muscles, how do you think it grants a bonus to strength?I just checked the rules and Bull's strength doesn't say anything against growing bulkier, though I only have the pfsrd at hand right now. If it is in the Core Rules that Bull's strength makes you bulkier I will reconsider. Can you cite a page for me if you have the time? I can't find that in the SRD.
That said I do not consider it the same as a mage using the arcane armor tree. The dynamics are very different. One is learning how to do something, the other is breaking a barrier.
I have never considered buff spells like that to increase your size except for enlarge.
The belt of physical might does not add to size. You have a belt that adds strength. It is not adding size. I can make the case for magic.
Does Fox's cunning make your brain bigger? Does cat's grace suddenly make you slender? No it is magic.
if Bull's strength did indeed change your size, out of simplicity I would have redacted my statement, because size growth is size growth. Bull's strength does not change your size, nor have I ever treated it as changing size. it is magic.
Technically your not changing size with a mutagen, but the fluff clause of bulkier makes me want to house rule you can't transform in armor. The same thing I do for Lycanthropes.
The problem with your houserule is that if the class ability was supposed to be incompatible with armor than it would be called out in the ability description. Also why only heavy armor and not light or medium? There's no logical reason why it would only affect heavy armor.
Now if your argument was "I think that it affects game balance to allow mutagen to work with heavy armor therefore I houseruled it this way and used the bulkier fluff to give my rule logic" would be a different issue altogether.
Actually I should have stated medium armor as well, I thought I did. yes heavy and medium armor.
it might simply just stem from my experience as a historical re-enactor. I know how difficult it is to wear armor and how important it is to fit correctly. Chain mail, plate mail etc, if not buckled right will completely throw off everything.
I have worn armor from light studded to chainmail to full on fluted plate. The problem with fit increases as the armor gets heavier, but plate mail fits better than chainmail because it is placed and buckled to fit correctly. if I felt like bothering, Chainmail would have the worse dex bonus of all the other armor. The heavy armor would all actually sit on the body better than ANY of the medium armor due to the strapping required.
Light armor I would allow simply because the buckling and strapping is less important, and the material allows for better expansion.
Growing bulkier, buckles break, armor no longer sits correctly, your torso expands and thus part of the armor is cutting into you etc. All kinds of problems that even a change in bulk could cause. That is why I house rule it.
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The problem with your houserule is that if the class ability was supposed to be incompatible with armor than it would be called out in the ability description. Also why only heavy armor and not light or medium? There's no logical reason why it would only affect heavy armor.
Now if your argument was "I think that it affects game balance to allow mutagen to work with heavy armor therefore I houseruled it this way and used the bulkier fluff to give my rule logic" would be a different issue altogether.
Actually I should have stated medium armor as well, I thought I did. yes heavy and medium armor.
it might simply just stem from my experience as a historical re-enactor. I know how difficult it is to wear armor and how important it is to fit correctly. Chain mail, plate mail etc, if not buckled right will completely throw off everything.
I have worn armor from light studded to chainmail to full on fluted plate. The problem with fit increases as the armor gets heavier, but plate mail fits better than chainmail because it is placed and buckled to fit correctly. if I felt like bothering, Chainmail would have the worse dex bonus of all the other armor. The heavy armor would all actually sit on the body better than ANY of the medium armor due to the strapping required.
Light armor I would allow simply because the buckling and strapping is less important, and the material allows for better expansion.
Growing bulkier, buckles break, armor no longer sits correctly, your torso expands and thus part of the armor is cutting into you etc. All kinds of problems that even a change in bulk could cause. That is why I house rule it.
I think that I can understand that, but I still do not agree with it. (from a rules balance point of view)
Just curious, do you also have all characters pay to have found armor refitted for their character?
I think that I can understand that, but I still do not agree with it. (from a rules balance point of view)
Just curious, do you also have all characters pay to have found armor refitted for their character?
Yes I do! Mundane armor always. Though for years I have added a property to armor (like fortification type) that transforms the armor's size to the size of the wearer. Obviously if the alchemist was to get a hold of armor with that property I would allow it to work. It is basically adding the enlarge and reduce spell to the crafting.
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I think that I can understand that, but I still do not agree with it. (from a rules balance point of view)
Just curious, do you also have all characters pay to have found armor refitted for their character?
Yes I do! Mundane armor always. Though for years I have added a property to armor (like fortification type) that transforms the armor's size to the size of the wearer. Obviously if the alchemist was to get a hold of armor with that property I would allow it to work. It is basically adding the enlarge and reduce spell to the crafting.
Okay, so taking that into effect, do chain shirts (which do not have strapping normally) also cause problems with character bulking up? Or do you just draw the line at armor categories? I ask this since how much different is there in torso fit between a chain shirt (light armor) and chain mail (medium armor)?
Please note, I am not trying to pick on you, only understand how far you go for your house ruling..
I think that I can understand that, but I still do not agree with it. (from a rules balance point of view)
Just curious, do you also have all characters pay to have found armor refitted for their character?
Yes I do! Mundane armor always. Though for years I have added a property to armor (like fortification type) that transforms the armor's size to the size of the wearer. Obviously if the alchemist was to get a hold of armor with that property I would allow it to work. It is basically adding the enlarge and reduce spell to the crafting.
Okay, so taking that into effect, do chain shirts (which do not have strapping normally) also cause problems with character bulking up? Or do you just draw the line at armor categories? I ask this since how much different is there in torso fit between a chain shirt (light armor) and chain mail (medium armor)?
Please note, I am not trying to pick on you, only understand how far you go for your house ruling..
Chain or 'Mail' armor (it is a pet peeve of mine given that both words actually mean the same thing) works by dissipating the force of the blow. If you increase YOUR size but not the size of the mail around you, it becomes tighter & doesn't dissipate the force as effectively. This is in the real-world of course. The actual difference between a chain shirt & chain mail is that one is fictional & the other is a redundant way of saying a Chain or Mail Cote, which depending on the design had very little in the way of strapping anyway. Which is what Mournblade was saying about the difference in how he would rule the dex bonus between full plate (which is strapped individually to each major body-part) & chain (which basically hangs from your shoulders & the closest thing to a strap usually is the belt you have to keep your tabard from flying all over the place when you are swinging a weapon in combat.)
my 2cp.
Okay, so taking that into effect, do chain shirts (which do not have strapping normally) also cause problems with character bulking up? Or do you just draw the line at armor categories? I ask this since how much different is there in torso fit between a chain shirt (light armor) and chain mail (medium armor)?
Please note, I am not trying to pick on you, only understand how far you go for your house ruling..
No worries. I like this sort of thing. Irnk mentioned most of it above, but I would add the Belt is necessary to distribute the weight of a chain hauberk. When wearing plate the armor's weight is distributed by the strapping and each muscle has its own load to work. Chainmail is another thing entirely, it HANGS. It is nearly the weight of plate, but it is hanging on your shoulders which places lots of stress on your neck and shoulders. The entire weight of the hauberc is carried by the upper back, neck, and shoulders. It is extremely cumbersome. The belt you wear with chain is probably about 2 inches thick of heavy leather. This helps support some of the weight of the chain.
I include all of the armor in the equiptment section and keep them in their proper categories with proper dex penalties because I think the intention there is balance. If however you ever get the chance to put on a chain shirt, you will laugh when someone calls it 'light' armor. Realistically chain shirt would just be chain mail without the legs.
I pretty much house rule armor is broken if a character changes size category without the armor being included in the effect. With that said straps can be adjusted, so for the alchemist I may just force him to take a standard action to adjust armor so he can bulk up with mutagen. That would satisfy me, and probably not nerf his feat too much.
Random simulationist features as house rules in Pathfinder of all games. Why play such a completely fictional gamist system instead of something simulationist like GURPS or RMFRP?
Really all games are an abstraction. I have played GURPS, and Rolemaster. Rolemaster attempts to simulate too much and STILL it does not adequately simulate, nothing even larping really does that. So Pathfinder I like because i can make minor changes here and there that do not go crazy. I would say Rolemaster is more simulationist than PF but it is still completely fictional. Gurps simulates. But it does so TERRIBLY.
I also don't like inserting arbitrary realism into a fantasy game. If you want realism that's fine and dandy, however I don't see piecemailing realism into pathfinder. By this logic arrows should only do subdual damage to someone in full-plate, and MW bastardswords(katanas) should not be sunderable. I have put on a chainshirt before and know how heavy they are, and can only imagine at fullplate, I can't see anyone swimming in that kind of armor, let alone only 30% less effectively than they would without it.
I insert random bits of realism when it will not shift the paradigm of the rules. Plate armor is accounted for in armor class, and HP are an abstraction so I have no problem leaving that as is. Funny enough I ADD h.p. and hardness to master work weapons and armor so they are harder to break or be destroyed.
My rules for armor are not far off from the PF rules and most of my issue can be settled by the environment rules.
Pretty much I give no penalties for swimming in leather based armor, and a plus 10 DC to swim checks for metal based armor.
Where I can satisfy a technical situation with a minor check like a DC modifier I will do it. I don't obsess over it, and if it involves a cascading rewrite I don't bother.
Swimming in armor bothers me. I remember what it was like holding peoples weight belt when I was teaching them to dive. It is super hard to stay afloat with an extra 15 pounds. Places like that is where I tweak the rules.
I doubt if you were to play in my game you would find the times they do jarring. Most of the time it is adding a DC, reducing a DC or just disallowing something to occur. I do not break rules paradigm.