I just want to know if anyone multiclasses using straight Pathfinder rules. I'm not talking about adding a prestige class to your base class -- I'm talking about taking levels in 2 different base classes.
I'm just curious because it seems like Pathfinder, by focusing more on archetypes, has filled in all these "middle areas" so that there are now many archetypes that that suit a lot of character concepts. Combine that with the capstone abilities at level 20 that encourage people to stick with their first class, and I just don't see much reason for people to multiclass anymore.
Or am I wrong?
Yes.
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I only have five or so Pathfinder characters that I have played from level 1 to a level greater than 3rd, but of those only one is multi-classed (and that is a ranger/wizard/eldritch knight).
I was more inclined to multiclass in 3.5, but I don’t think the lack of multi-classing for me has much of anything to do with archetypes or capstone abilities; I have only used an archetype for one character (who is currently 3rd level and may yet multi-class – though probably not) and I am unlikely to play any of my current characters to 20th level, so the capstone abilities are irrelevant to me. It probably has more to do with the classes generally having better abilities and fewer dead levels than in 3.5.
My experience is not necessarily typical though. My main group (level 12 PCs) has five regular characters, of those three are pretty heavily multi-classed (no PrCs), two are single classed. Of the additional two ‘occasional’ players in this game one has a mult-classed character, one has a single classed character.
You're partly wrong in the fact that capstones mean very little in practical play. A comparatively small portion of the Pathfinder community plays to level 20, most AP's end between levels 15 and 18 and hell, Pathfinder Society only goes to level 12 if memory serves.
That being said, there's a lot of reasons to stay in a single class (especially for a full caster) but at least for martials multi-classing is still somewhat appealing. The two level fighter dip is still alive and strong, joined by the 3 level dip (medium armor without penalty) and the 5 level dip (Weapon training + Duelist Gloves for +3/+3 with a chosen weapon group) Infact that 5th level dip could be done in 3 levels with the Weapon Master archtype if you don't care about Medium Armor.
Ranger is a good way to grab some skills and access to some decent wand spells, though the loss of swift action wands hurts.
Barbarian is harder to dip because of the way rage rounds work, but I could see 2-4 levels.
Paladin is as appealing as ever with Divine Grace and Paladin wands.
Monks are... monks. Two levels for Wisdom to AC when unarmored (at least it helps if you're caught unarmored for some reason), Stunning Fist, Evasion, Flurry, and two combat feats for which you don't have to meet the prerequisites isn't bad at all, though the lost point of BAB hurts. (At least you get it back during a Full Attack, though that doesn't help you for on standard actions/charges/attacks of opportunity or qualifying for feats.)
Okay, cool. Because I do like the idea, flavor-wise, of there being a lot of PCs and NPCs out there who engage in multiple adventuring "professions." It doesn't sound very optimal to have a fighter/magic-user, though, because of the high-level spells you'd miss out on. It would be interesting to see one in play, though... there would be some interesting backstory.
But now that I think about it, in pretty much every version of D&D there was that tradeoff if you wanted to be only part-caster. I guess it depends on being in a campaign that isn't pushing the envelope CR-wise at all times.
There's a guy in the game I'm in presently who is playing a half-elf ninja/cleric, so I can also vouch that people still do multi-class. He's the only multi-class character in the party though, the others are elven fighter, human paladin, hobgoblin magus, and dhampir inquisitor.
Pretty much all of my characters have taken a 1-2 level dip in another class for one reason or another and I'm a huge proponent of only being a single class. My paladin picked up rogue for some skills. My ninja went ranger for trapfinding, I didn't want to, but we've ran into a ton of traps, most of which are magical. My current fighter is going ranger because that fits him better than fighter ever will, but frankly, I blame my GM for that.
I have seen 3 cases of multiclassing:
1) 1 level dip trapper ranger for getting trapfinding
2) The cavladin, that is a paladin/cavalier (4 levels oath of vengeance paladin the rest beast rider).
3) Ranger/druid using the UC feat shapeshifting hunter.
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I have a barbarian/rogue/internal vivisectionist alchemist. This multiclass fits her perfectly.
From about the age of 8, she was a slave who was forced to steal for her master.
(If you've played CotCT Part 1, it's who you would expect. I can't do a spoiler inside a spoiler.) When she was 16, he ordered her to capture children to serve him, and she instead went around warning children to watch out for him. He found out and had someone beat her within an inch of her life. She snapped, entered her first rage, and killed the man who was beating her She then ran away faster than anyone could catch her.
She got the alchemist levels after the party alchemist, who is somewhere between a close friend and a father figure to her, suggested alchemy as a way to get in touch with her body and learn to channel and control her anger. The internal part is for developing self-control, and the vivisectionist part makes sense with her rogue training.
It also does tons of damage in combat--barbarian speed really helps with adding those sneak attack dice to mutagen rage.
I multi-class NPC quite regularly. In Adventure Paths tons of NPC are multi-classed. I see rogue fighters a lot.
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Yes.
Exclusively except for the Wizard
(any casters though Wizards are the only casting Class for me)
Ranger -- 1 lvl
Ninja -- 3 lvls
Paladin -- 4 lvls
Fighter -- 2 lvls or 4 or 5 max
Monk -- 4 lvls
Inquisitor -- 2 lvls
Rogue -- 2 lvls
Barbarian -- 1 lvl
Shadow Dancer -- 2 lvls
Gish (Magus) -- 1 lvl
All varieties of combos with either Paladin, Monk, Scout (3.5) or Inquisitor as the base, with a bit of those other things added.
I like Warlock (3.5) too.
I just retired a character (due to game ending due to GM needing more time for school) that was a Zen Archer/Empyreal Sorcerer.
My new character for the new game (someone else took over as GM) is a Dhampir Metal Oracle (2 levels) who will be taking Sangiune Sorcerer at 3rd level, and going into Mystic Theurge at 9th level.
I personally dont multiclass in pathfinder. I have always preferred to have a base class or at most single prestige class that acheives the concept I want. Part of that is that I like the self contained and easy to use options that a full base class creates. To that end I use a wide variety of base classes from 3rd party sources and some from 3.5 to still be able to meet my conceptual needs.
I would almost always rather pick up or create a new base class then multiclass. And lately at least my group has being similar. I dont believe anyone in any of the 2 current games in my group are multiclassed. Part of that is definately due to the emphasis in pathfinder classes on making it a real choice to multiclass, and alot of the new concepts (summoner, witch, inquisitor, cavalier) the scaling abilities are important to the character development and are less adative to other classes (like an eidolon or calavaliers mount progression).
Crossblooded Sorcerer is a stupidly powerful 1 level dip for a lot of spellcasters.
My Witch Enchanter went from 'limited in targets for the majority of her spells' to 'Hold Person, more like Hold Person, Animals, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids!' as well as netting a +2 to Compulsion DC's out of the deal. And one of her ancestors turns is implied to be some some of crazed half-fey serpent cultist! How cool is that?
Alternate choices could have opened up Undead or Vermin or Plants to enchantments, and Crossblood Sorc also has the potential to take blasting into the realm of competitive damage dealing.
Losing a level of class progression is painful, sure, but the benefits are unavailalbe elsewhere for ANY amount of resources, so IMO, its well worth it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm joining a PbP in which I'm starting with a Bard2/Unarmed Fighter1.
Two levels of bard gets me a really high Perform (Oratory) and the Versatile Performance ability, letting me use that in place of Diplomacy and Sense Motive.
The Unarmed Fighter level gives me Snake Style for free. This lets me use an immediate action when attacked to roll Sense Motive and treat the result as my AC (or touch AC!) against that attack.
Meaning at level 3, once per round, I can have my AC be somewhere between 13 and 32.
I can't NOT multiclass. It's a sickness. I think it's called suboptimalism.
Crossblooded Sorcerer is a stupidly powerful 1 level dip for a lot of spellcasters.
My Witch Enchanter went from 'limited in targets for the majority of her spells' to 'Hold Person, more like Hold Person, Animals, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids!' as well as netting a +2 to Compulsion DC's out of the deal. And one of her ancestors turns is implied to be some some of crazed half-fey serpent cultist! How cool is that?
Alternate choices could have opened up Undead or Vermin or Plants to enchantments, and Crossblood Sorc also has the potential to take blasting into the realm of competitive damage dealing.
Losing a level of class progression is painful, sure, but the benefits are unavailalbe elsewhere for ANY amount of resources, so IMO, its well worth it.
And that's all this archetype is good for.
Anyway what was the second bloodline you picked for your witch? (I kinda understand that one was fey)
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From what I've seen in the community, few people do what I might consider 'multiclassing'. That is, 'take more than one class and level them up interchangeably, as a part of the character concept'.
No, instead I see 'dipping', which I define more as 'take the minimum amount of as many classes as possible in order to gain the maximum mechanical benefit'.
And that's all this archetype is good for.
Anyway what was the second bloodline you picked for your witch? (I kinda understand that one was fey)
Serpentine is the other one.
Even though you specifically pointed out "no prestige classes", as I will eventually be a Dragon Disciple, right now I'm playing a Sorcerer 3/Fighter 2 with the Magical Knack trait. It was kind of painful getting to this point, but I am very pleased with how she is turning out. She will never be an awesome spellcaster (as far as saves are concerned) or an optimized fighter (due to a lower BAB progression), but that was never my intention. I just wanted a decent melee fighter with access to some spellcasting.
In a party full of pure classes (Fighter, Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer), she has a lot more she can do and offer to the party. It gives her a lot more options to choose from than either front row hitting or back row casting. So far, I've noticed that it's mainly the skills that are lacking. Social skills are better left to others, unless I want to play good cop/bad cop and always be the bad cop with my Intimidation. Even the other skills I am obligated to roll (Perception, Spellcraft) are not worth rolling. I'm okay with that, though.
I'm a huge fan of Rogue/Ranger or Rogue/Fighter.
Rogue/Ranger for more class skills, martial/armor proficiency, and free Two-Weapon Fighting.
Rogue/Fighter for feats, martial/armor proficiency, and Fighter-only feats.
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I just want to know if anyone multiclasses using straight Pathfinder rules. I'm not talking about adding a prestige class to your base class -- I'm talking about taking levels in 2 different base classes.
I'm just curious because it seems like Pathfinder, by focusing more on archetypes, has filled in all these "middle areas" so that there are now many archetypes that that suit a lot of character concepts. Combine that with the capstone abilities at level 20 that encourage people to stick with their first class, and I just don't see much reason for people to multiclass anymore.
Or am I wrong?
I do. I'm playing a druid/ranger in Legacy of Fire....
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I saw almost no multiclassing in Pathfinder when using the core classes. However, it seems to be a lot more common when the base classes, archetypes and other material from the APG, UC and UM are included. I have had one character multiclass out of about 10 I have created and played in PFS and other Pathfinder campaigns (Oracle of Battle/Barbarian).
I don't know if I would multiclass a caster, but melee types get multiclassed at times. Actually I would multiclass a caster(more than 4th level spells), but it would only be if the concept really called for it.
I love taking level dips. While I find that this often detracts from a characters effectiveness in one aspect (most often battle) it can really help fill gaps in other areas.
there was a really poignant podcast done on this topic by the folks who do the "gamers guide to Pathfinder". Definitely worth a listen
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Multiclass? You bet. Just for a fun experiment we ran a party recently where ALL players had to multiclass. I had all the NPCs multiclassed as well. Definitely not optimal builds, but still had a good time with some interesting combinations.
Multiclassing is definitely a viable method for progressing your character. In truth, most campaigns will never reach that level 20 capstone ability anyway (for example, most Pathfinder Society games / Pathfinder Adventure modules end between levels 12 and 15). This makes the short-term benefits of multiclassing a lot more beneficial.
Ultimately, the only characters who stand to lose a LOT from multiclassing are classes that rely on spellcasting. For example, the Wizard, the Cleric, the Oracle, etc. In truth, there really should have been some sort of mechanic to prop those classes up and make multiclassing more viable for them, something like "Favored Class - Any spellcasting class. Add half of your class levels in any other class to your Favored Class level when determining your spells per day and spells known."
I never really multiclassed unless I am forced to by the gm even in 3.5.
Every single one of my PFS characters is multiclassed.
I agree. I have difficulty not multiclassing a build.
I have a barbarian/rogue/internal vivisectionist alchemist. This multiclass fits her perfectly.
** spoiler omitted **
It also does tons of damage in combat--barbarian speed really helps with adding those sneak attack dice to mutagen rage.
Your story's great, and I appreciate everyone else's responses. I'm glad to see there's still room for synergy and interesting multi-classing backstories within the Pathfinder rules.
I'll multi-class if it fits the character.
Only way I can get into theurgy so I have to.
I was bored and made a Valeros rewrite based on his backstory for Runelords. He ended up a multi-classed Fighter/Chevalier/Ranger, and it all worked out pretty well. Posted it on the AP section.
More effective against everything then a Ranger, more effective then a Fighter against Giants, with Chevalier bonuses thrown on top for some fun. Immunity to Fear and Poison was nice to pick up, as was re-rolling all enchantment saves.
==Aelryinth
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I seem to be the odd ball, based on previous posts, but I have yet to make or see another player make a multiclassed character. For that matter only one time did someone take a prestige class and that was for Arcane Archer. On the other hand, almost every character I've seen made since the APG was released has used an Archetype.
OP: Well, for the next game I'm toying with Alchemist/Rogue(or Ninja) for a Black Fingers initiate I want to play.
So yes, multiclassing is alive!
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There's a guy who, in my group, basically says to himself at every level gained, "Hmm, which class should I take a level in this time?" Despite everyone at the table basically begging him to stay with one class and not hamstring his character mechanically, he never gets more than Level 3 without deciding to multiclass.
At the moment, just about everyone in my current group has levels in two different classes. I find this hilarious.
I just want to know if anyone multiclasses using straight Pathfinder rules. I'm not talking about adding a prestige class to your base class -- I'm talking about taking levels in 2 different base classes.
I'm just curious because it seems like Pathfinder, by focusing more on archetypes, has filled in all these "middle areas" so that there are now many archetypes that that suit a lot of character concepts. Combine that with the capstone abilities at level 20 that encourage people to stick with their first class, and I just don't see much reason for people to multiclass anymore.
Or am I wrong?
Multiclassing is still very viable, and is actually not a bad thing to do at all if you're smart about it. Pathfinder removed the XP penalty associated with multiclassing (good riddance), and frankly there's really only one case where multiclassing denies you capstones. If your game will reach exactly 20 and go no further.
Now here's the thing. For many of us, our games either A) stop before 20, or B) we're totally happy going past 20, because C) Pathfinder gives enough rules to go past 20 even though it doesn't officially support "epic play". It explains the basics, such as how to handle abilities, track progressions, and determine XP charts, which is more than enough to pretty much go on infinitely.
In a game where epics are allowed, multiclassing just means delayed capstones, not loss of them. In games where you won't reach the capstones, it doesn't matter.
From an optimization standpoint, multiclassing is a good way to get access to pseudo-high level abilities early. Barbarian 8 / Oracle 1 is like having Tireless Rage, but you're immune to all fatigue, for example. Dipping Fighter grabs some feats for your concept.
Some concepts don't lend themselves very well single classed. If you want a Rurouni Kenshin style charater, you might find a Fighter / Barbarian / Rogue mix gives just the right balance of technique, speed, precision, and heroic badassery that you want.
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Or am I wrong?
I've never seen the point of multi-classing, personally. If I play a class, it's because it has abilities that I want to gain and use as I progress. Multi-classing denies me that.
At this point, the only reason I would multi-class a character outside of a prestige class was if I were using a 3.5 Feat like Swift Hunter or Devoted Performer or something to make it worth my while.
Certain lvl 20 abilities aren't that attractive. So multiclassing is still done quite a bit.