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I'm hoping to get some interesting discussion here, kind of like this thread.
Do you think THF is overrated?
That wizards should be blasters?
Maybe you think Rogues are overpowered! (Related to this statement: Perhaps you are crazy?)
Be civil, and play nice. Or else the mods will swing the banhammer down on this thread.
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People cough too much when they try to present a counterargument. There should be more breath mints for everyone.
That Archetypes and Bloodlines are "better" or in any way different than prestige classes.
Why? What do you think the problem with PrCs were, and how do archetypes fall into that same trap?
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That all martial characters are worse than all casters.
That Archetypes and Bloodlines are "better" or in any way different than prestige classes.
Well, they certainly are different.
If I make a Pathfinder melee fighter he's going to have one archetype even if he survives to level 20.
If I made a melee fighting character in 3.5 he's probably going to have a good 10 or 12 classes by level 20.
That Archetypes and Bloodlines are "better" or in any way different than prestige classes.Well, they certainly are different.
If I make a Pathfinder melee fighter he's going to have one archetype even if he survives to level 20.
If I made a melee fighting character in 3.5 he's probably going to have a good 10 or 12 classes by level 20.
I think Pun Pun had 12 classes by level 5.
what is this I don't even
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That rogues are weak. (I don't think they're overpowered, but they're not weak, nor useless. Any rogue I've seen played in an actual game has been continually helpful to the party and the player felt good about the character they played.)
That the only thing that matters is damage (at least, what are touted as "good builds" are ones that have high melee damage output (or a good spell list). If that's what you're going for, great. But at least the campaigns I play in, combat is only half of what you run into in a campaign, and in combat, tactics and teamwork are as essential, if not more so, than how many dice you roll per hit).
That wizards always win (mostly because arguments in their favor ignore the tremendous resource management wizards and other spellcasters have to constantly track, and always assume wizards know every spell and have the right one prepared for every circumstance, which is highly improbable. I don't think wizards are low powered of course, but I find "the wizard wins" arguments seldom well-reasoned with real-life gameplay taken into consideration).
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That Seoni's chest isn't magically augmented.
FINALLY, VALID USE FOR CASTY POWERS.
That Seoni's chest isn't magically augmented.
I'm pretty sure they're not illusions, but I'm not willing to risk casting detect magic or using other means to determine.
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Everyone knows Rouges are Overpowdered!
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That god wizards, or spellcasters built like god wizards, are the only valid spellcasters.
That builds aren't optimal unless optimized for combat.
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That people who optimizer aren't also the better role-players.
Do people consider Expertise fighters weak? Haven't seen that thread; I've generally found tripmonkeys to be better than other fighty-types. So I disagree if they exist.
That bards, ninjas, alchemists, cavaliers, and inquisitors are not just as weak as rogues.
That charisma has any use for most characters.
That mages are still tier I (summoners, Druids, and even clerics and witches tend to surpass them these days)
That summoner (especially synthasists) are OK without a rewrite
That we should just accept gunslingers into our fantasy game
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That all martial characters are worse than all casters.
+1
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That Seoni's chest isn't magically augmented.FINALLY, VALID USE FOR CASTY POWERS.
DRUID AM RESENT CASTY STEREOTYPE. DRUID AM MORE ADVANCED CASTY THAN SORCERER BUT AM ALSO GOOD WITH SWORD AND NOT DIE IN ONE HIT. DRUID AM EVEN GOOD SMASHY LIKE BARBARIAN WITH RIGHT SPELLS.
ALSO DRUID HAVE WARM FURRY PILLOW AT NIGHT.
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That bards, ninjas, alchemists, cavaliers, and inquisitors are not just as weak as rogues.
Wait, what?
That Seoni's chest isn't magically augmented.FINALLY, VALID USE FOR CASTY POWERS.DRUID AM RESENT CASTY STEREOTYPE. DRUID AM MORE ADVANCED CASTY THAN SORCERER BUT AM ALSO GOOD WITH SWORD AND NOT DIE IN ONE HIT. DRUID AM EVEN GOOD SMASHY LIKE BARBARIAN WITH RIGHT SPELLS.
ALSO DRUID HAVE WARM FURRY PILLOW AT NIGHT.
AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.
AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.
DRUID ALMOST ASK IF GIRLS AM ABLE TO POUNCE AND RAKE, BUT WISDOM SCORE MAKE DRUID THINK BETTER OF IT.
WAIT.
DRUID AM MAKING WILD EMPATHY CHECK, AND WONDER: IF TANYA MICHELE AND JOSIE AM FURRY, AM TANYA MICHELE AND JOSIE REALLY GIRLS?
DRUID AM NOT ENVY BARBARIAN.
AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.
AM BRING MORE, BUT AM ONLY SO MUCH ROOM ON BATTY BAT.
AM GETTING ALL THE LADIES.
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AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.DRUID ALMOST ASK IF GIRLS AM ABLE TO POUNCE AND RAKE, BUT WISDOM SCORE MAKE DRUID THINK BETTER OF IT.
WAIT.
DRUID AM MAKING WILD EMPATHY CHECK, AND WONDER: IF TANYA MICHELE AND JOSIE AM FURRY, AM TANYA MICHELE AND JOSIE REALLY GIRLS?DRUID AM NOT ENVY BARBARIAN.
AM FLUFFY, NOT FURRY.
NOT THAT AM MATTER. NYMPH AM HOT, AM LIKE STILL 80% TREE. IF AM HIT THAT, MIGHTYFINE CATGIRL MAY NOT BE BAD EITHER.
JUST NEED WAY MORE GIRL THAN CAT.
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Wait, what?
That bards, ninjas, alchemists, cavaliers, and inquisitors are not just as weak as rogues.
Well, I think rogues take a lot of slack. After all, their big nacho (lots of skills) is generally too weak, they are low damage output, and are generally strictly weak compared to a ranger.
Many think the bard has improved somewhat because of archetypes; past mid-levels this simply isn't true. The summoner was inexplicably made a better buffer than a bard (lower level spell access), and they are a similar skill monkey with low damage output. Bardsong is a cute buff, but eats up actions, and while most try to use feats to be somewhat good in combat they are just not able to keep up. Plus Evangalist stole their non-skill shtick and do it with full spellcasting ability, better powers, and better saves.
Alchemists are both weak damage dealers and weak buffers; I've seen too many in play and still scratch my head. They are poor blaster mages with minimal skills and a not-great spell selection.
Cavaliers were given tactician, an ability I have yet to see be made useful. They make pretty good spirited chargers, but that is done better as a paladin or now a rogue. And that is the only thing they logistically can do.
Ninja Ki tricks do help, but losing trapfinding was just insulting. And thanks to the inability to get free tricks via human / feats, they fall behind rogues mid-to-latency RAW. They are just a weaker rogue with a cooler name.
Inquisitors... an attempt at the battle cleric, but buff-and-attack is too little too late in PFS. They should at least get the domain spells. Another skillmonkey class that fails to deliver in combat, albeit a little better than some of these. I may even renig listing them here, they are lower-tier, but a good head above the rest of these rejects :).
I think, like rogue, any of these can survive fine; but you are at a pretty big disad if you are on the list. The good news is barbarian and monk used to be here (monk more than any), but thanks to good kits/follow-ups are now solid again.
AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.AM BRING MORE, BUT AM ONLY SO MUCH ROOM ON BATTY BAT.
AM GETTING ALL THE LADIES.
NOT CASTY LADIES!
NOT CASTY LADIES!AM BARBARIAN has three fluffy pillows at night. Tanya, Michele, and Josie.AM BRING MORE, BUT AM ONLY SO MUCH ROOM ON BATTY BAT.
AM GETTING ALL THE LADIES.
DON'T WORRY, BARBARIAN AM DELUDE SELF - EVERYONE KNOW BARBARIAN AM HAVE NO CHARISMA. AM NOT HAVE CHARISMA, AM NOT HAVE LADIES.
DRUID HAVE MORE CHARISMA THAN BARBARIAN, AM GETTING MORE LADIES (CASTY AND OTHERWISE).
Man, I find the alchemist to be one of the most subtly broken classes in the game.
14 Int, the rest in str and con, Mutagen, and Feral Mutagen does an amazing amount of damage. Especially with Power Attack, you'll be ripping things to shreds.
And that's before vivisectionist, or any feats, really.
Maybe the blasty bits are weak, but their melee game is phenomenal.
At level 4, with 16 Str, you can have 3 attacks at +8 (+3 BAB, +5 str from mutagen) and +9 if they take Weapon Focus (Claws). These attacks will be doing +8 1d8+5 / +8 1d6+5 / +8 1d6+5.
Or +7 1d8+7 / +7 1d6+7 / +7 1d6+7 with power attack. If you're hasted, that'd be +8 1d8+7 / +8 1d8+7 / +8 1d6+7 / +8 1d6+7.
Any melee class would *kill* for that kind of attack routine at that level. You're all of one point behind full BAB classes, and the fighter doesn't even have weapon training yet. And it just keeps on getting better if you take Master Chymist (Furious Mutagen increase the damage dice of the attacks by one step, and eventually they can Enlarge as a part of drinking the mutagen).
Oh, and they have fast healing due to Spontaneous Healing.
Did I mention Alchemical Allocation? With the trait that makes it a move action to drink potions, you can cast that, and then drink a potion all in one round, without using the potion up. Remember that +5 potion of Greater Magic Fang 20th CL you bought for 3k, and that is in an adamantine flask?
Yea, that's adding +5 to hit and damage to all your attacks. And that's just 1/2 your WBL, so it's totally doable. At 5th level, if your GM lets you buy one of those, you can easily afford it, since it's only a 1/3rd.
So, hasted:
+13 1d8+12 / +13 1d8+12 / +13 1d6+12 / +13 1d6+12.
At level 5. With fast healing. And one round of buffs. Be a vivisectionist, buff yourself up. Everyone else is in position now, so maneuver to flank. On your first attack after the move, that'll be about +14 1d8+12+3d6 damage. On the next turn, the target is dead after taking 4 attacks at full BAB hugely buffed, all with +3d6 of sneak attack.
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I roll my eyes whenever someone lists TWF as a positive thing for optimization.
The cost in feats and wealth, combined with the existence of damage reduction, add up to wasted resources.
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There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.
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The bard isn't the best buffer in the game because of Haste.
Or even Inspire Courage.
They are the best buffers because they can cast Inspire Courage, Good Hope (an amazing bard only spell), and Haste in one round. At level 7.
No one comes even close to this amazing ability. An evangelist cleric of Iomedae can approach this (barely), but that requires the supplemental rules that state Clerics of Iomedae can cast Good Hope as a 4th level spell. So, with Inspire Courage, Blessing of Fervor, and Good Hope, they will either need 8th level spell slots and Quicken Spell (meh) or a Rod of Quicken Spell (and more importantly, it's price tag of 75,500 gp). Even then they've expanded far more resources than the bard, to do a worse version of the same trick. Blessing of Fervor simply is not as good as Haste, as far as buffing the martial types go. And the Bard can do the spell-casting buffs of Blessing Fervor with a Level 2 spell (Arcane Concordance). Which also increase the DCs.
They are the best buffers and support characters due to the X Inspiration line of spells as well. Those are incredible, and can really help turn the tide of a battle.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.
Interestingly, Gnomes can do just as well.
Oh yea, and at level 10, that alchemist (assuming he has Beastmorph) will have Pounce as well. +7 BAB, +5 from Potion of GMF, +4 Str from mutagen, pounce, +5d6 sneak attack...
Yea, they aren't weak. This isn't even a feat intensive build. At all. You literally just need Power Attack. Put the rest into defensive feats.
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There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.Interestingly, Gnomes can do just as well.
*Twitch*
*Draws mushroom cleaver and runs off*
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I'm pretty sure I disagree with ALL of the "Pathfinder Memes".
I'm also surprised that they get hashed out as much as they do. I guess when someone figures out how to play RPGs on a message board in 2-minute increments in between tasks at work or school, then the kvetching will stop. :P
There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.Interestingly, Gnomes can do just as well.*Twitch*
** spoiler omitted **
*Draws mushroom cleaver and runs off*
I uh...what? Are there specific smurf versions of normal avatars?
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my most hated meme is that any one can say any class is weak even though there is only 2 ways to make a class weak: the dm nerfs it, or the player made a bad build. but the second one only apples if the dm is weak.
to sum it up there are no weak classes only weak DMs(as it is your
responsibly as a DM to make the classes equally useful not paizo's)
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First, by raw potions are at the min level, so it's a +1 magic fang, not +5. So we'll ignore that part. Even if you could get a 20th magic fang, it only affects 1 attack (or gives +1 to all 3).
Second, they are still very squishy... said dump monkey will have low AC and poor saves. Which is OK (solid HP probably), but the returns aren't there.
D8 + 7 * 2 d6 + 7 * 2, at +8. VS same level fighter (18 strength, power attack, weapon focus and spec) 2d6+15 * 2 at +10. And don't get started on archers /summoner beasts. And both do their damage with no prep alll day, every day; not 50 mins / day (works in dungeons, not so well over-land).
The alchemist just can't do anything sadly; even trying to pull off neat combos.
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NOT THAT AM MATTER. NYMPH AM HOT, AM LIKE STILL 80% TREE. IF AM HIT THAT, MIGHTYFINE CATGIRL MAY NOT BE BAD EITHER.
JUST NEED WAY MORE GIRL THAN CAT.
NYMPH AM SO HOT SHE STEAM. NYMPH AM 2/3 WATER. REST GREEN LEAVES, LIGHT AND LOVE. LIKE BEER.
I uh...what? Are there specific smurf versions of normal avatars?There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.Interestingly, Gnomes can do just as well.*Twitch*
** spoiler omitted **
*Draws mushroom cleaver and runs off*
Only for me, 'cause I'm special.
I roll my eyes whenever someone lists TWF as a positive thing for optimization.
The cost in feats and wealth, combined with the existence of damage reduction, add up to wasted resources.
Except in the case of large per attack bonuses to attack/damage. See paladin's smite or rogues sneak attack. Though ofcourse archery does this dramatically better then two weapon fighting (costing slightly less in feats and much less in wealth for just about the same effect).
By the way is there any way this thread isnt going to either devolve into a total flame war OR a dozen separate arguments?
By the way is there any way this thread isnt going to either devolve into a total flame war OR a dozen separate arguments?probably not
By the way is there any way this thread isnt going to either devolve into a total flame war OR a dozen separate arguments?
BARBARIAN HAVE READIED ACTION TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
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BARBARIAN HAVE READIED ACTION TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE.By the way is there any way this thread isnt going to either devolve into a total flame war OR a dozen separate arguments?
HAHAHA THAT CONTINGENCY.
Lol Popcorn thread was right! This is a highly entertaining read. Just let me get some more popcorn and I'll be ready ^_^
Except in the case of large per attack bonuses to attack/damage. See paladin's smite or rogues sneak attack.I roll my eyes whenever someone lists TWF as a positive thing for optimization.
The cost in feats and wealth, combined with the existence of damage reduction, add up to wasted resources.
Or Rangers FE. For me TWF is also a style-choice, realistically unusual and found mostly with dangerous warrior who know what their doing and don´t use it all the time. Means mid-level and when appropriate.
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Only for me, 'cause I'm special.I uh...what? Are there specific ssmurff versions of normal avatars?There seems to be a nasty rumor floating around that dwarves are better miners than kobolds. As a kobold, I can inform you all that this is NOT TRUE. We get a +2 bonus to Profession (mining) checks, and dwarves do not. End of story.Interestingly, Gnomes can do just as well.*Twitch*
** spoiler omitted **
*Draws mushroom cleaver and runs off*
So many things I could say with that. But I like KC so I will refrain.
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HAHAHA THAT CONTINGENCY.BARBARIAN HAVE READIED ACTION TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE.By the way is there any way this thread isnt going to either devolve into a total flame war OR a dozen separate arguments?
AM CONTINGENCY.
THING THAT AM HAPPEN: BARBARIAN SEE CASTY.
THING THAT AM HAPPEN: DEAD CASTY.
THAT AM GENIUS THINKING.