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That level 20, or even level 10, should be a guideline for character building. Most gameplay I've seen happens from 1-7, where the game seems most interesting anyway. I think level 7 should be the board-accepted guideline for posting characters; 4th level spells are online (3rd for bard-types), everyone just got their 4th feat, Martials have 2 attacks, PFS still has 4 levels to go. Far too many people post "look at how much damage I can do at 20", or post level 20 builds to prove that a mystic Theurge is a viable class, or some such. It just wastes time and gets old.
That high level play is somewhat wrong and E6-E8 should be the way to go.
I don't agree traps add ANYTHING to the game. Either they get the party declaring "take 10" as they move, or serve as HP damage soaks. I hate when it takes 10 minutes real time before players will open doors; and seriously, some of these traps (especially those without bypass mechanisms) would be unrealistic to keep around a place people are about.
They also add an illusion of NEEDING any class; a party makeup should be flexible, so if nobody wants to play a rogue / urban ranger, they don't have to. I say illusion, because anyone can perception a non-magic trap, and by RAW a magic one does "ping" when detected for. So unless you house rule, a cantrip is being used to detect your trap setup.
That detecting a magical effect in place is the same thing as detecting a magical trap.
So you don't disagree that it is a fallacy, just that it is a logical fallacy?
The double negative is a wee bit confusing, but I believe the answer is "Yes." It is not true that being an optimizer guarantees that one is a poor roleplayer. It is also not true that the "Stormwind Fallacy" is actually a Logical Fallacy.
I will add this caveat/nuance: I believe players who prefer the mechanical aspects of the game, i.e. optimizers tend to be less interested in RPing (and therefore not quite as good at it). I also believe that players who are more interested in RPing tend to be less interested in game mechanics (and therefore not quite as proficient with them). Neither statement in any way discounts the presence of outliers who are proficient in or enjoy both aspects of the game (or who stink at both, for that matter).
I do not believe that the previous statement should be controversial in the slightest. What I do find controversial (well, to be honest, offensive) is the attempt to conceal what is clearly an entirely subjective opinion behind a false veneer of Logic. It is a cheap debating tactic that demeans the debater, the debate, and Logic itself.
@Tark: Send me the cash and the PDFs. I'll send you the Larva.
So you don't disagree that it is a fallacy, just that it is a logical fallacy?The double negative is a wee bit confusing, but I believe the answer is "Yes." It is not true that being an optimizer guarantees that one is a poor roleplayer. It is also not true that the "Stormwind Fallacy" is actually a Logical Fallacy.
I will add this caveat/nuance: I believe players who prefer the mechanical aspects of the game, i.e. optimizers tend to be less interested in RPing (and therefore not quite as good at it). I also believe that players who are more interested in RPing tend to be less interested in game mechanics (and therefore not quite as proficient with them). Neither statement in any way discounts the presence of outliers who are proficient in or enjoy both aspects of the game (or who stink at both, for that matter).
I do not believe that the previous statement should be controversial in the slightest. What I do find controversial (well, to be honest, offensive) is the attempt to conceal what is clearly an entirely subjective opinion behind a false veneer of Logic. It is a cheap debating tactic that demeans the debater, the debate, and Logic itself.
The problem is that people want to treat them as mutually exclusive. Such as assuming any player with a good build must suck at roleplaying but that if a player has a gimped toon he is a great at it.
Which as Trentmonk pointed out is about as true as saying that if someone has a great looking mustache they wouldn't have time to optimize.Th
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Agreed.
Fallacy
1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
I think we can all agree that 'being good at roleplaying requires being bad at optimization, and vice versa' is a fallacy in all of these definitions.
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Well, in many games (mine for example) traps DON'T play a big role, and thus trapfinding is unneeded.Why is that? You don't like the idea of the trap? I think they add a "whole nuva level" of challenge to the game. Not every adventure should be a Tomb of Horrors, but I think that module is a classic for this reason.Playing devil's advocate here, recall that in Gygax's own campaign, the Tomb of Horrors was beaten not by a thief finding traps but rather by a fighter with a lot of disposable orc henchmen.
In other words, someone dealing with traps with exactly the kind of brute force methods that people point to when they say "Eh, you don't *really* need a trapfinder."
Rather than contesting the idea that a trapfinder isn't an absolute must, the Tomb of Horrors is the canonical demonstration of why you don't. (And, hell, how many rooms would a 1E thief have survived with their terrible ability to find magical traps? No, you probably should send in the orcs.)
You mean that my players using bunnies and sheep as trap detectors was evil?
They should have used disposable henchmen instead of poor animals?EDIT: they didn't reached the end of the tomb. The consensus what that it wasn't an adventure for 4 level 16 characters but for 16 level 4 (they were using the pregenerated at the end of the book).
Still we had fun.
EDIT 2: the bunnies didn't worked so well in one of the first room: you had pass upon the right section of the mosaic or different things would happen. The guys stepping on the mosaic where hidden by a fog. They never got to see what the bunnies did.
That the entire "tier" class rating system is at all useful, interesting or even accurate.
It's accurate at the extreme ends, but the extreme ends of any spectrum are always the easiest to differentiate, which makes the tiering system less useful (since the reliable bits of information that it gives are already pretty much obvious).
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I dislike that many will try to find reason to make a Paladin fall with small, nigh-meaningless, acts but seem to see nothing wrong about "Good" PCs who casually use lethal damage right away against opponents, who let them bleed to death, or who kill them (or at least put them in the negative, and then check the previous case) when the opponents are helpless victims of a spell.
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I think the idea of the "magic shop" has always bothered me for one reason. To make it realistic, I would really have to spec out the entire shop and all of it's defenses. Just so I can be prepared for when a PC decides to rob them.
So that would mean for every town where the PC's might want to buy some magic, I would really have to be prepared for them to attack it, no?
And they won't all be well protected. Sometimes the shop owner just won't have what it takes to fend off an attack from the PC's right? So that means they would get a shop's worth of goodies.
For those of you in the "Pro Magic Shop" camp, how do you handle that?
Constructs as guards, mostly. 2.0 helmet horror was perfect as it was:
- easy to build- it was intelligent, so it could evaluate the situation
- it was possible to crate it at different power levels, so it could be tailored to the needs of the shop
- it was immune to most mind tricks
- it had an alignment that was dependant on his creator alignment.
3.x made it a little less optimal as it did become a product of "long lost magic" or somesuch.
Still magic constructs, possibly intelligent ones, are one of the best defence.
Low level magic shops (like a shop that sell writing materials, blank spellbooks, spell components and a few potions on the side) could live with little or no magical protection. The clientèle is fairly specialized, so shoplifting isn't one of their main problems. The problem would be some adventurer type robbing the shop, but that is a fairly stupid move if you cont on trading magic items in that town again (not that I think that the PC would not do stupid things).
The shop owner, if he is still alive, probably could call in favours from a from several powerful guys asking them to track and recover his stuff.
After all the above, I don't think that the store owner will have all his stuff available on his counter, ready for purchase. He will have a safe room, with plenty of protections and take out only what will interest the buyer. He would keep only a few items on display.
And possibly some of them would be cursed item meant to hinder people stealing them (stone of weight, for example).
EDIT: a things that helped me deciding what defences are useful: 3 players of mine, playing second edition, hired a alchemist (a class that was published in a dragon) to produce potions and set up a shop to sell them and a few minor magic items they had.
They didn't take any precaution, so after a time I had a NPC come in, Charm the shoopkepera and Suggest that he should be allowed to take the potions home to check them before buying the whole stock.
The shoopkeper obviously agreed to lend tall of his potions "for testing" to his best friend. The PC did lose only a few thousand pieces (nothing serious for them) but were very thoroughly about putting up a reasonable security for the shop. I had only to copy what they did and tweak it a little.
Getting your players to do the work for you is useful :D
and should be important to anyone who cares about the study of Logic
If your definition of logic is epistemic nihilism, sure.
However when someone says "X doesn't exist" when I've seen X they don't have an equally valid opinion they're flat out wrong.
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Doing a less than thorough job at researching the meme you're touting.
AM BORIS AM THINKING ALL THESE AM PEOPLES ARE TAKINGS THE COOLNESSES OF AM BARBARIAN AND IMITATING POORLY. THIS INCLUDES MIGHTY RUSSIAN BORIS. ETHNIC OFFENSIVENESSES AM POORLY DONE AND BARELY INSULTING. IS NOT FUNNY.
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INTIMATION AM SENSORIST FORM OF FLATTERY. BARBARIAN AM NOT ADVERSE TO OTHER GUYS, BUT AM RESPECTFULLY REQUEST AT LEAST NOT CALL SELF 'ME ____'.
BARBARIAN ONLY KNOW PRONOUN 'YOU.' MAYBE IT. MADE MASTERS THESIS PAPER VERY INTERESTING READ.
AM CASTY PLAGIARISED AM BARBARIAN'S THESIS AND GOT TENURE. AM WHERE FEUD COME FROM.
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AM CASTY PLAGIARISED AM BARBARIAN'S THESIS AND GOT TENURE. AM WHERE FEUD COME FROM.
MIGHTY RUSSIAN BORIS LAUGHTED MIGHTILY.
AM NOT MAKING THINGS BETTER
AM, HOWEVER, MAKING THINGS GO BOOM.
AM THE BEST CASTY, CAN CAST WITHOUT BOOKS, CAN USE OTHER PEOPLES SHINEYS, CAN USE LONGSPEAR, HAS MOST 1ST LEVEL GROUPIES, HAS LEAST CLOTHES, AM BETTER THAN AM BARBARIAN.
I'd also like to point out that Seoni has magically enhanced breasts.
I'd also like to point out that Seoni has magically enhanced breasts.
Feiya is still prettier.
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I'd also like to point out that Seoni has magically enhanced breasts.
AM BREASTS NOT MAGICALLY ENHANCED, AM BREASTS ARE MAGICAL, AM FROM "AWESOME RACK" BLOODLINE, AM LACTATING MAGIC.
THE ORACLE EQUIVALENT OF MY BLOODLINE HAS THE "BAD BACK" CURSE.
I'd also like to point out that Seoni has magically enhanced breasts.AM BREASTS NOT MAGICALLY ENHANCED, AM BREASTS ARE MAGICAL, AM FROM "AWESOME RACK" BLOODLINE, AM LACTATING MAGIC.
THE ORACLE EQUIVALENT OF MY BLOODLINE HAS THE "BAD BACK CURSE".
AM.
NEVER.
NEED.
FOR.
MY.
We still need an Ignore message board function.You have an 'ignore sub-forum' function and an 'ignore thread' function. What more do you need?
An ignore toz button :)
The research and development of said feature determined that implementation would have such side effects as famine, widespread carpal tunnel syndrome, and nuclear winter.
I know my life would be emptier. :P
There is an ignore function as a user-made Greasemonkey script somewhere in the board archives. It saw a lot of use in the CoDzilla era.
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The 90,000 "AM BARBARIAN" copies going through every thread tend to get annoying. The original was funny, especially in his original thread, and interlaced solid mechanical advice in his humorous manners. The me-toos are generally just annoying threadjackers that fail to capture the subtle intelligence or humor of the original.
As to rogue/wizard builds, I'd argue against the continual posting of these if you do not want optimization help. Really I'm confused about a lot of threads when people ask for advice, only to dismiss any given. I can understand having ground rules for the optimization (no stat below 10, has to be a dwarf, needs X prestige class), but state them in advance. As to the rogue/wizard, many of us have played and/or played alongside one of these monstrosities; we are helping people avoid the same trap. I too love the concept of the rogue/wizard (and rogue in general), but people who try it always end up needing to reroll thanks to being vastly underpowered at their current level.
I think you have a few trolls that claim optimizers can't role-play, or fun players are usually quiet/obnoxious IRL and are the ones who actually fail to role-play, but most of us let people be what they want. I do wish most people would appreciate that a choice to optimize or not is individual, and has no bearing on how well one plays the character.
I have a friend who has a rogue / wizard. She's pulling her weight.
She's also a straight up Vampire, which may be related.
I have a friend who has a rogue / wizard. She's pulling her weight.
She's also a straight up Vampire, which may be related.
Does... does she sparkle in the sunlight? :)
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Does... does she sparkle in the sunlight? :)I have a friend who has a rogue / wizard. She's pulling her weight.
She's also a straight up Vampire, which may be related.
I cast Glitterdust on her once.
The GM, who was the wife of the rogue / wizard, through the CRB at me for that.
Thankfully, I have Lightning Reflexes. And Catch Arrows (which, btw, works with books.)
And now I'm just imagining... 'THIS IS THE SPELL OF A KILLER, BELLA...!'
That Americans think that any acronym they invent on the spot is instantly comprehensible and readable by anyone across the globe.
OH PLEASE!!! This is my biggest one.
I still can't make sense of YMMV. RAW was pretty easy. IMHO is pretty easy.
I cannot for the life of me figure out what YMMV is and I am an american.
Your mileage may vary.
Or YKMV to euros. And just about everyone else who hasn't been to the Moon.
If a player builds a character with a magic item in mind, I tell them they will never find it in a magic shop, so hope for random. They then usually change their idea.You realize that you just obliterated the concept of King Arthur, right ?
Not in any way shape or form. I realize that I am well versed in arthurian legend and cannot remember when King Arthur went to a magic shop. I am pretty sure they didn't search for the grail in one either.
King Arthur was also not built with an inherent weakness that Excalibur needed to fill. Excalibur would count as a plot element.
Your mileage may vary.
Or YKMV to euros. And just about everyone else who hasn't been to the Moon.
Thanks! No wonder I could not figure that one out.
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Not in any way shape or form. I realize that I am well versed in arthurian legend and cannot remember when King Arthur went to a magic shop. I am pretty sure they didn't search for the grail in one either.
You forget the bit where the Lady in the Lake squeezed every last copper out of Arthur. Merlin sat on the sidelines, laughing, muttering "stupid damn useless martial characters".
Then AM BARBARIAN appeared out of nowhere and rolled a natural one, but killed Merlin anyway. In fact, he killed him so hard that Merlin began living backwards in time from the moment of AM disembowling him until his conception.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Your mileage may vary.
Or YKMV to euros. And just about everyone else who hasn't been to the Moon.
I prefer YRMV (Your Reality May Vary)
Oh, my latest annoyance. "I need help making a class X" "Well start with dipping into class Y, then go the rest of the way class X." arrrgh.